Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on March 26, 2003, 07:51:34 AM
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Just what we didn't need.
'Many casualties' after Baghdad market hit (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2887555.stm)
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An angry crowd of several hundred people gathered in the area following the strike, waving the shoes and clothes of victims
..and few minutes after they were bragging at home how they got clothes for free.
Anyway.. since the first day, I've been wondering if Iraqis would resort to bombing their own civilians - heck, killing some three dozen own civilians in right place would be an excellent propaganda strike against your enemy.
..and who would try to prove it wasn't US bomb?
nobody.
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It could well have been a US bomb. It was expected and inevitable that some civilians would die in this war. It is a horrible thing.
Sadaam should be the one to take responsibility though...he could, and should, have gone into exile.
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How could you prove it was not a US bomb?
All they have to do is trot over the one of the military targets, grab a piece of a tomahawk, and bring it to the market place.
Were we bombing in that area? I suppose if we could put a tomahawk in Iran, and one in Turkey, we could have accidentally put one in the market.
This sort of thing is going to happen. It's unforunate, and a very disheartening event, but we all knew there would be some civilian casualties in this war.
Sad....very sad.
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I have read multiple reports that the area was hit by two separate missiles. Seems that someone got their GPS coords screwed up.
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Relax folks.
I have it from a reliable source that a member of Saddam’s Feyadeen wrapped himself with dynamite, climbed into a cardboard box painted up to look like a US JDAM and threw himself off the top of “Saddam’s Place” downtown mall building.
The bastards.
Don’t worry though. Once the eye slits in the cardboard are found the truth of this incident will be set straight.
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Or maybe one of those Russian GPS jammers, eh?
Lots of possibilities.
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If the BGM109 had the 1,000 lb warhead there should be a BIG freaking crater.
I've never seen any info on the blast effects of CBU's-I thought they were more of a fragmentation effect weapon, though.
In short, the blast patterns look rather......odd.....to me.
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Ps. not saying that I suspect iraqis doing so, just wondering :>
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I'm sure if they thought it was an Iraqi bomb they would have said so by now.
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I'm no expert on this area, but should'nt there be a crater?
There at least should be fragments of the missle scattered all over the place.
Leave it to the experts, but do not expect a straight answer from anyone.
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..........more like the blast came from within the building, and at ground level rather than from a Tomahawk.
I wonder too about the constant Iraqi claims of civilian deaths. With the coalition reports of Iraqi soldiers dressing as civilians, who can really tell if the victims were truly innocents, or military personnel?
The Iraqi propaganda machine is in full swing, this we know. Front line imagery from reporters is immediately called lies by the regime. What are they gonna do if and when we decide to use a zoom lens and catch them in the act of forcing their civilians to be shields for them? They will call it lies, and sadly, it appears that many in the Islamic world will feed into it.
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"Associated Press Television News video showed a large crater in the street, a smoldering building, demolished cars, and bodies wrapped in plastic sheeting in the back of a pickup truck. "
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Originally posted by Dowding
I'm sure if they thought it was an Iraqi bomb they would have said so by now.
I'm not sure who you mean when you say "they" in the above sentence. From the CENTCOM briefing this morning, the briefer said they were looking into the Iraqi claim, and could neither verify or rebuke the origins of the blast. What the US military is trying to do is verify such stories first, rather than simply claiming it must be Iraqi propaganda. A knee-jerk denial, if proved wrong, would be more damaging to coalition credibility than admitting after careful investigation that a bomb or missile missed it's target. Give the US some credit for trying to be as honest as operational security allows. It is quite possible it was an errant coalition bomb or missile. It is equally plausible (based on many independently reported incidents of Iraqi treachery on and off the battlefield) that it is a simply more Iraqi propaganda, manufactured at the expense of it's citizens.
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Originally posted by llyr69
If the BGM109 had the 1,000 lb warhead there should be a BIG freaking crater.
I've never seen any info on the blast effects of CBU's-I thought they were more of a fragmentation effect weapon, though.
In short, the blast patterns look rather......odd.....to me.
Actually, during Operation Desert Fox, Iraq complained about too many collateral civilian casualties. In response, the Air Force started filling it's warheads with cement instead of explosives. The effect is that we have GPS guided rocks. There's enough energy to take out the target, but there's no added explosion to cause the collateral damage. The Air Force calls the bombs "kinetic weapons" and we use a lot of them still today.
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There was nothing couched within my post. I just assumed they would know if it was a mistake - doesn't the pilot watch the impact on a camera?
I can understand them being cautious though.
Give the US some credit for trying to be as honest as operational security allows.
What makes you think it was a US crew?
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Actually, I made no judgements on whether it might have been a "US crew" (as opposed to a British one), but said only that the US would try to verify the facts. Also, these bombings take place at night (at least in Bahgdad), so if it was a GPS-guided munition (as opposed to a laser-guided bomb) the pilot would not see the impact. If it was not a bomb, but a missile instead, obviously there would not be a pilot to do on the spot BDA. I inferred from your post above that you were assuming (couching) it was a coalition bomb. If I inferred wrong, I apologize.
As far as my "operational security" remark is concerned, that was a general observation about the information put out by the US military. These military briefers are asked many questions by the press that they cannot answer truthfully without giving potentially harmfull information to the enemy. It has been my experience that instead of lying about it, they simply answer that they are not at liberty to discuss it.
Regards,
Sabre
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I see.
About the crew, I was assuming you had gleaned the nationality from a news report I hadn't seen. Not that it matters.
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Another possibility (posed by a BBC article I just read) is that the explosion may have been caused by an Iraqi SAM or large caliber AAA shell that had fallen back to earth and exploded in the market.
What goes up, must come down.
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what Vermillion said
US said they have accounted for all missile/bombs and none of them were targeted for that area.
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"doesn't the pilot watch the impact on a camera?"
Depends on what they are shooting.
JDAM - no, autonomous GPS guided
JSOW - no, autonomous GPS/INS, except for the C model which has terminal IR guidance.
TLAM or CALCM or ACM - no they are autonomous
TV/IR guided - yes they usually monitor it all the way
Laser guided stuff - yes they have to designate the target.
HARM - no, it's autonomous.
Im pretty sure JDAM and JSOW and HARM are what they are firing mostly.
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Colin powell said misguided freedom bombs.
Anyway, they died for freedom and democrazy and i guess they would be happy to read "Collateral damage" on their gravestones :(
Regards Blitz
This war is unjustice, dishonest, violent and ugly.
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All wars are violent and ugly. Please find me a conflict that was regarded as a work of art, suitable for a 3 week run on Broadway or for a six month feature in the Tate Gallery.
That's why they are generally avoided.
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Originally posted by Dowding
All wars are violent and ugly.
So are most of the women I meet....
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Originally posted by Dowding
All wars are violent and ugly. Please find me a conflict that was regarded as a work of art, suitable for a 3 week run on Broadway or for a six month feature in the Tate Gallery.
That's why they are generally avoided.
This war wasn't avoided but provoked by Mr. Bush & Co at all costs.
Sad enough :(
Regards Blitz
This war is unjust, dishonest, violent and ugly. The pope says it's an "Angriffskrieg"
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The word you're looking for is unjust. There is no such word as unjustice. If you're going to buck for "probation"... you might as well spell things correctly along the way.
MiniD
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My point still stands, Blitz. Saying that any war is violent and ugly is completely redundant.
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Originally posted by Dowding
My point still stands, Blitz. Saying that any war is violent and ugly is completely redundant.
Totally agreed :)
Regards Blitz
This war is unjust, dishonest, violent and ugly. The pope says it's an "Angriffskrieg"
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Why are they still milling around when they know that city is under siege. They had ample time to get the hell out, heck more than half the city already did. I know I would.
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Hey blitz the Iraqi Republican Guard can use some help, you seem to be just the man for the job.
Hurry.. You may miss the enlistment.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by JoeSmoe
Hey blitz the Iraqi Republican Guard can use some help, you seem to be just the man for the job.
Hurry.. You may miss the enlistment.
:rolleyes:
You just being fired for mismangagement? :D
Regards Blitz
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Originally posted by blitz
saddam is unjustice, dishonest, violent and ugly.
come on blitz, some people think saddam is kinda cute
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AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar (Reuters) - The United States said on Thursday an errant missile that fell on a Baghdad marketplace, killing at least 15 people, may have been fired by the Iraqis, perhaps in a deliberate attack.
Brigadier General Vincent Brooks said in a briefing at U.S. Central Command forward headquarters in Qatar that the Iraqis were using old missiles and firing them without radar guidance to prevent detection by U.S. and British aircraft.
"We've seen uncontrolled surface-to-air missile fire," he told a news conference on the eighth day of the U.S.-led war.
"I think it's entirely possible that this may in fact have been an Iraqi missile that went up and came down, or given the behavior of the regime lately, it may have been a deliberate attack," he said.
Brooks said U.S. aircraft were attacking Baghdad at the time of the incident on Wednesday, but the targets were "in a different area" of the Iraqi capital.
But he said: "We won't have a final answer until we're in Baghdad ourselves."
Witnesses blamed U.S.-led forces for the missile attack, which sparked fury among crowds of Iraqis in the northern Baghdad street where the weapon fell on Wednesday.
Brooks said a U.S. investigation had determined that all U.S. missiles fired during the period had hit their intended targets.
"They hit their target, we're certain of that," he said. "The rest of the story we just don't know. We may never know."
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"I think it's entirely possible that this may in fact have been an Iraqi missile that went up and came down, or given the behavior of the regime lately, it may have been a deliberate attack," he said.”
Do they really believe that the American people are ignorant enough to swallow this?
Well…..on second thought.
In any case Bob Fisk believes it was a US jet.
http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=391165
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Originally posted by blur
In any case Bob Fisk believes it was a US jet.
LOL! Now there's fair and balanced reporting for you.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by blur
[BDo they really believe that the American people are ignorant enough to swallow this?
ll…..on second thought.
[/B]
Iraqi air defense units have been firing their missiles unguided since shortly after the first Gulf War began. That is not new, and it is well documented.
Do you think these missiles simply continue on into space? What goes up must come down. These aren't exactly small shoulder fired weapons we are talking about either. The SA-2 is a big sucker, and will make a heck of a mess when it does come down.
What do you think happens to all the prox fused AAA rounds that don't go off in the air? Unlike AH, real life rounds will eventually come down. The Iraqis have a great deal of 85-100+mm AAA guns.
Who is ignorant again?
-Smut
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Originally posted by blur
"I think it's entirely possible that this may in fact have been an Iraqi missile that went up and came down, or given the behavior of the regime lately, it may have been a deliberate attack," he said.”
Do they really believe that the American people are ignorant enough to swallow this?
Well…..on second thought.
In any case Bob Fisk believes it was a US jet.
http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=391165
The reciprocal question is, "Is anyone ignorent enough to believe the Saddam regime would not stoop to this, if they felt it served their purpose?" The callous disregard of this regime for it's own people is well documented, and not in dispute by anyone but the most idiologically blind. Also, and as has been noted, it could just as easily have been an Iraqi missile. Call me ignorant; call me brainwashed...but I'm inclined to believe CENTCOM before I'll believe the Iraqi government.
Sabre
Major, USAF (Ret)
P.S. What qualifications does Bob Fisk have that lends greater credibility to his "belief" in your eyes than to CENTCOM? Just curious.
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Yeah, the SA-2 is the proverbial "flying white telephone pole" the NVA fired en masse during Vietnam. Not terribly accurate but it does make a pretty big BANG. One of their tactics was to fire them off unguided against B-52 formations going in to bomb Hanoi. Since they knew the route, and occasionally the time, a B-52 flight was coming it wasn't long before they hit one. The possibility that Iraq is pulling the same tactic isn't terribly surprising. Most of their large caliber triple-A guns come close to field arty in shell size, so imagine the damage that'd cause. Add in any "extras" they might use to brew up a few blocks and you've got a winner. Fox said something about a tanker truck being parked a block or so away from the blast. Wonder how that ended up so close to a "crowded market"?
As Jack Broughton said in his book Thud Ridge (paraphrasing here) "I don't know why they were firing like mad, we were a good ten miles south of town. Maybe it was all that crap they shot off into the air coming back down that got 'em pissed?"
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Originally posted by john9001
come on blitz, some people think saddam is kinda cute
Must be americans than because in Germany we know all about his relationship in case of WMDs with Mr. Rumsfeld :D
Regards Blitz
This war is unjust, dishonest, violent and ugly. The pope says it's an "Angriffskrieg"
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hmmm lets suppose rumsfeld gave sodom insane WMD. all the more reason to disarm him!! IMO.
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Another market was hit. Its strange how our errant bombs only seem to land in crowded markets.
The first time I viewed it as a probable errant bomb. Fool me once... shame on you. Fool me twice...
MiniD
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LMFAO..this is the funniest thing i have heard lately...
Blur
I have it from a reliable source that a member of Saddam’s Feyadeen wrapped himself with dynamite, climbed into a cardboard box painted up to look like a US JDAM and threw himself off the top of “Saddam’s Place” downtown mall building.
nice 1 Blur..ahahahahah
Love BiGB
xoxo
Blitz Says "Germany was never a danger to anyone...ever"
Blitz Says " There was never a Holocaust"