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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dune on March 26, 2003, 02:41:42 PM

Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Dune on March 26, 2003, 02:41:42 PM
From CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/26/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html)

Quote
Iraqi forces charge south from Baghdad
Bush: 'Military is making good progress'
Wednesday, March 26, 2003 Posted: 1:58 PM EST (1858 GMT)
 
KARBALA, Iraq (CNN) -- A column of up to 1,000 Iraqi military vehicles was reported moving south Wednesday night toward Najaf, the scene of an earlier battle with U.S. forces, U.S. Army officers told CNN.

The column is believed to be made up of troops from Iraq's elite Republican Guard. The forces were moving from Baghdad at a rate of 18 mph to 36 mph, toward the lead elements of the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division, CNN's Walter Rodgers reports.

Coalition military officials said they expect the Iraqi forces are heading south to try to retake a key Euphrates River bridge, captured by U.S.-led troops after fierce fighting this week.

U.S. commanders were calling in airstrikes to slow the Iraqi advance.

A persistent sandstorm is limiting the coalition's ability to protect its ground troops with helicopters and planes, Rodgers said. Apache helicopters haven't been able to fly for two days. However, the weather conditions have improved enough for some planes to fly close air support if needed, Rodgers said.

At nearly the same time, a column of 70 to 120 Iraqi armored vehicles poured out of the southern city of Basra, heading southeast in what reconnaissance intelligence said appeared to be an offensive charge. Coalition fighter jets were scrambled to intercept them.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Dune on March 26, 2003, 02:42:38 PM
I find this real interesting because they are making a huge mistake. One way they partially negated the Abrams' technological advantages during the 1st Gulf War was to leave the engines off on their T-72's. That greatly reduced their IR signatures. It also allowed them to go hull-down. If you figure that defending is a force multiplier of 2 to 3 and that they already have a numerical advatage of at least 3 divisions to 1 (the 3rd ID), they are really throwing a great advantage away.

But, it has happened before where a bad leader takes an enemy's setbacks as the turning of the tide and quickly stops doing the things that created those setbacks in the first place. The RG cannot fight an open-field battle against the US. We all know what happens to tanks on the move, in the open, when they don't have air superiority. Bunkered down, covered by AA, they might survive and force the US to come in after them. Not like this they wont.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: MoMoney on March 26, 2003, 02:47:47 PM
Maybe they are planning on Gasing everyone once they meet US forces.  I still think we're going to see a curvball or two before this is over.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: funkedup on March 26, 2003, 02:58:33 PM
Do we know for sure that the Iraqis haven't upgraded their MBTs with APFSDS ammo or IR and night optics?

It is better that they come out into the open though.  That let's the coalition use their real advantage - airpower - without worrying so much about hitting civilians.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Thud on March 26, 2003, 03:07:00 PM
I'm worried about these sandstorms though, the Iraqis may think that they have a chance getting all that equipment down south under the cover of those storms. Forecasts state that similar weather remains there at least two more days..
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Eagler on March 26, 2003, 03:11:21 PM
out in the open, the B52's don't care about a sand storm..
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: LePaul on March 26, 2003, 03:18:30 PM
You know, I've been following the press worrying about this big bad convoy.  I'm recalling how when the Iraquis tried to retreat in a huge, open convoy in the first Persian Gulf War, and our A-10s and a variety of strike aircraft literally tore it to pieces.  Also, if I recall, this helped end the first war....dang, wish I knew where it was...the Wings Channel had a bit about this a few weeks ago.  I think it was in Kuwait

Either way, if they want to bring a nice orderly convoy down Rt 6 or whatever that road is, there are plenty of coalition aircraft that will be happy to greet them....
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: AKIron on March 26, 2003, 03:26:34 PM
Much better to encounter the enemy in the open where you don't have to worry about civilian casualties. Don't have to hold back, can hit 'em with the kitchen sink.

Of course it's possible those Iraqi forces moving south from Baghdad are doing it so that the nerve gas they are about to deploy doesn't kill everyone in their capitol.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Dowding on March 26, 2003, 03:30:26 PM
Basra road. But that was without a sand storm.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Sabre on March 26, 2003, 03:32:28 PM
Yeah, the situation reminds me of the Battle of the Bulge, where the Germans took advantage of a huge weather front to make an offensive thrust, without worrying about (grounded) air power.  However, there, the Germans had a technological advantage in armor.  The Iraqi's don't.  Also, they're on the offensive, which they don't have a lot of recent experience with.  Neither are they likely to have the capability to support an offensive drive logistically.  Finally, I think they're going to be rudely surprised at the capability of Coalition air power to operate in inclement weather.  Also, every hour the weather situation improves.  I imagine this situation, if true, will allow a field test of the MOAB, once the strike aircraft take out the Iraqi mobile AAA.  I see the "Highway of Death" scenario, writ large.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Martlet on March 26, 2003, 04:15:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Thud
I'm worried about these sandstorms though, the Iraqis may think that they have a chance getting all that equipment down south under the cover of those storms. Forecasts state that similar weather remains there at least two more days..



B52's pounded an armor attack in a sandstorm last night.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: john9001 on March 26, 2003, 05:55:47 PM
"""elite Republican Guard"""  elite compared to what??
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Otto on March 26, 2003, 06:22:58 PM
CNN at it's best!!!   It's not "1000 armored vechiles" but 1000 troops in pickups trying to reinforce a RG division (Media?) that is dying in place...
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Kanth on March 26, 2003, 06:32:22 PM
compared to their regular army

Quote
Originally posted by john9001
"""elite Republican Guard"""  elite compared to what??
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: john9001 on March 26, 2003, 06:34:46 PM
are they attacking or retreating and got lost in the sand storm?
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Animal on March 26, 2003, 06:47:27 PM
HUGE mistake.
They should have left all the armor they could muster back in Baghdad, where US airstrikes could not decimate them and they could have the home turf advantage, and encounters could be close up...

Maybe they truly dont want their city to be destroyed?
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Raubvogel on March 26, 2003, 06:58:19 PM
Should make good target practice for our A-10s. We should thank them.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Animal on March 26, 2003, 06:59:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Should make good target practice for our A-10s. We should thank them.


Yeap, its gonna be one hell of a turkey shoot for the A-10's
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Pongo on March 26, 2003, 09:24:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Animal
HUGE mistake.
They should have left all the armor they could muster back in Baghdad, where US airstrikes could not decimate them and they could have the home turf advantage, and encounters could be close up...

Maybe they truly dont want their city to be destroyed?


I think if the sand storm is still on this is thier best bet. Why let the armour be destroyed one PGM at a time with no abiltiy to fight back. They have lots more armour to make the battle of bagdad tough.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Glasses on March 27, 2003, 12:05:28 AM
Well considering Italy and Spain are in this all we need is a guy named El Cid and we're done for.  :D
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Hangtime on March 27, 2003, 12:36:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Yeah, the situation reminds me of the Battle of the Bulge, where the Germans took advantage of a huge weather front to make an offensive thrust, without worrying about (grounded) air power.  However, there, the Germans had a technological advantage in armor.  The Iraqi's don't.  Also, they're on the offensive, which they don't have a lot of recent experience with.  Neither are they likely to have the capability to support an offensive drive logistically.  Finally, I think they're going to be rudely surprised at the capability of Coalition air power to operate in inclement weather.  Also, every hour the weather situation improves.  I imagine this situation, if true, will allow a field test of the MOAB, once the strike aircraft take out the Iraqi mobile AAA.  I see the "Highway of Death" scenario, writ large.


i don't disagree.. but fellas, you've all forgotten american artillery. we can hit with pinpoint accuracy and with a ferocity that is just plain awe inspiring... in the middle of a downpour.. in a sandstorm.. day or night.. 'just one call does it all'.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: sling322 on March 27, 2003, 02:01:35 AM
Heard tonight that this was false info.  Anyone else hear anything on this?
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Erlkonig on March 27, 2003, 02:08:47 AM
Quote
Meanwhile, in central Iraq, there were conflicting reports about whether large numbers of Iraqi Republican Guard troops were moving out of Baghdad toward the lead elements of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division.

Top U.S. military officials in Washington and at Central Command headquarters in Qatar said field reports seemed to be based on inaccurate intelligence and that officials could find no evidence of such an operation.


CNN again (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/27/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html)
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Mathman on March 27, 2003, 03:08:16 AM
I heard they were just repositioning themselves around Baghdad.  Who knows?  The only people that know for sure are the Iraqis, and I don't think they are going to be telling us their intentions anytime soon.
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: Dead Man Flying on March 27, 2003, 09:17:58 AM
I hate this uncertainly about stuff.  First there are reports of a large convoy, then it's just repositioning, then it's a convoy again.

Here's one latest (http://www.msnbc.com/news/891508_asp.htm) report on the matter, which seems to indicate that there was, in fact, a convoy attempting to use the sandstorm as cover for attacking coalition forces.

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/27/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html) confirms this report with some differences:

"Waves of B-52 bombers pounded a convoy of Iraqi military vehicles overnight before they could reach the lead elements of the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division in Najaf, about 60 miles south of Baghdad, CNN's Walter Rodgers reported Thursday."

Of course, MSNBC reports that the "waves" of B-52s were just two B-52s dropping JDAMs on the Iraqi convoy.

No confirmation from Fox News, BBC, or Reuters on this report.

Confusion reigns.  Weeeeee!

-- Todd/Leviathn
Title: Iraqi Armor Sorties from Baghdad. Moving South.
Post by: medicboy on March 27, 2003, 09:30:55 AM
KARBALA, Iraq (CNN) -- A column of up to 1,000 Iraqi military vehicles was reported moving south Wednesday night toward Najaf, the scene of an earlier battle with U.S. forces, U.S. Army officers told CNN.
=============================================


MMMMMMMMMM, I like Iraqi armor....................

OR

Target practice!!!!!

http://www.zuko.com/Cool_Rides/Aviation%20Images/A10opensfire96.jpg