Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dune on March 26, 2003, 08:03:26 PM
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As I've mentioned, I have never thought we had enough armor or troops on the ground in Iraq (http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17939). It seems that CENTCOM has come to the same conclusion:
(CBS) As the war many hoped would be short enters its second week, the U.S. military is calling for reinforcements, CBS News has learned.
The commander of American ground forces in Iraq, Lt. Gen. David D. McKiernan, has asked the Pentagon to fly in part of an armored cavalry regiment from the states, about 700 soldiers, to help protect the supply lines in southern Iraq which have come under unexpectedly fierce attack from Saddam's so-called Fedayeen fighters, CBS News Correspondent David Martin reports.
The 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment from Fort Polk, La., and the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment from Fort Carson, Colo., will be deployed.
The news of reinforcements comes as 1,000 U.S. paratroopers from the 173rd Airborne landed in northern Iraq and seized an airfield, and the Army's 3rd Infantry pulled within 50 miles of Baghdad.
Not that I'm Clauswitz, but it is interesting to see.
One major question I have involves Rumsfeld. It seems he has always been a proponent of doing away with the more expensive heavy, armored units and building the army around lighter, more mobile units. I wonder if his preferences shaded his decision to start the war before the 4th ID and other armor units showed up. I hope this wasn't him trying to prove that light units, moving fast could win a war.
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Expecting to win a war in a week is ridiculous.
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The move to light units started LONG before Rumsfeld came into office. You can thank General Eric Shinseki and the last administration for that move. If they can afford the C-5 sorties to bring their armor and Kiowas along, then the 2nd and 3rd ACRs would pack a nice punch. I still think we've got something in the works that is going to catch everyone...including the American public by surprise. These folks aren't stupid.
Toujours Pret :)
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Pretty silly to brag about regurgitating my posts on another BBS.
lol
Your clauswitz allright.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Pretty silly to brag about regurgitating my posts on another BBS.
lol
Your clauswitz allright.
Well then, General love muffin, you can be Clauswitz also. But I've been saying this as long as you have. :rolleyes:
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from what i heard franks wanted more heavy armor but the pentagon over ruled him.
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No..
You read my post in this thread
franks strat (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=82502&referrerid=1067)
and of course this thread
2 days befor your post (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=82629&referrerid=1067)
I mean..no one else on these boards cares..but if you basing your opinion of your self on your ability to generate original thought..you should probably not brag about it on the board where you read your great ideas...ok..just a note for future great revelations you come up with..
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Pongo, I'm glad you feel that the idea that we both came up with is a great one. But trust me, the last thing in the world I need is for you to do my thinking for me.
I'd hate to have you try to think for two and drive that ego at the same time.
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I "DO" recall this war starting before it was designed -due to the fact that good "intelligence" indicated the location of the great arab gangster was discovered, and a subesequent strike called before the forces were entirely ready for action.
It would appear that the aforementioned strike might not have been as successful as one would have hoped. Results still unkown.
As for you two have a pissing contest, please "DO" continue.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I "DO" recall this war starting before it was designed -due to the fact that good "intelligence" indicated the location of the great arab gangster was discovered, and a subesequent strike called before the forces were entirely ready for action.
It would appear that the aforementioned strike might not have been as successful as one would have hoped. Results still unkown.
As for you two have a pissing contest, please "DO" continue.
All good points. But I think I'll leave Pongo to bask in the power of his mind.
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I thought the title "Dune's "From the I told you so" Dept." looked familiar, until I realized it was plagerized from Vadr's post on AGW only yesterday titled "From the I told you so Dept."
:D
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thee fat squeak don't sing unless we're all there.
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I'd hate to have you try to think for two and drive that ego at the same time.
look at subject line for this thread..which you started.
All good points. But I think I'll leave Pongo to bask in the power of his mind.
Interesting.
You did read and post in both those threads a day befor you posted the same concepts in AGW. Really there is nothing in your AGW thread that is not from my posts in the other threads.
But you start a thread here bragging about it. And I have a big ego.
Are you an officer in the military by any chance..lol
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with on your own.
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some of you guys are sounding like CBS, MSNBC and CNN ...
think they have the situationa well in control .. but feel free to ring em up and offer ur armchair advice ...
the news would love nothing more than a long drawn out bloody war ... their ratings have never been higher ... $$$$$ .... and if it doesn't happen, they at least want you to think it might.....
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Expecting to win a war in a week is ridiculous.
Exactly.
Hell, even the french lasted two. :cool:
Wab
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Exactly.Hell, even the french lasted two. :cool:
Wab
:D
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Armchair generals always crack me up. I am not saying that those in power can't make mistakes (they have in the past), but don't you think that those with formal training in commanding and war fighting beyond the grunt training that many people here have had (and even more have not - myself included) actually might have an idea as to how to run a war better than you?
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You don't have to be a West Point or Sandhurst grad with 4 stars to have concerns about a really long supply line that wends past towns full of "bypassed" enemy units.
You don't have to be a West Point or Sandhurst grad with 4 stars to have concerns about a planned for Northern Front that never opened with the troops destined for it still a week a way from the battle.
You don't have to be a West Point or Sandhurst grad with 4 stars to have concerns about there being no "theater reserves" available.
I think all of those "armchair concerns" have finally been noticed. The 3rd ID halted 48 hours in place. The 1 MEF is now saying they will stop and deal with the attacks on their supply column in the "hunting" mode. The 173 Airborne has dropped to take a usable airfield in the North and 4th ID is beginning to move troops in theater.
I think all of those actions validate the various concerns raised by former military high-ranking officers and by some here as well.
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Shock and Awe -- maybe we should have just dropped a Coke bottle from the skies and we could have walked into Baghdad as gods. Weren't we originally supposed to go in with only 3 brigades at one point in the planning?
Armchair generals always crack me up. I am not saying that those in power can't make mistakes (they have in the past), but don't you think that those with formal training in commanding and war fighting beyond the grunt training that many people here have had (and even more have not - myself included) actually might have an idea as to how to run a war better than you?
Math, I think the question is: Are there armchair generals in Washington that called the shots on this one? From the think tank to the field with little in between.
Charon
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Will someone please hurry up and tell Iraq they have lost so we can get back to our regular posts soon?
Can I talk someone into posting something about fishing squirrels catching cats on cars (or something like that)?
Hell, I'd read another post about 'one word games' or 'just type ! please'.
On second thought....just continue here. At least we will know where you are posting and can side-step it.:D
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I think another thing that may have been a miscalculation is the faith in Shock & Awe's ability to generate a sufficient level of actual shock and awe amongst the Iraqi people. The mass surrenders and the dancing, flower throwing welcoming party also doesn't appear to be materializing as hoped. I don't even qualify to be an armchair general, but I'd say a war strategy that puts faith in not having to really fight a war probably isn't so smart.
All that being said however, I'd say the war is going very, very well so far.
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Originally posted by squelch_19
At least we will know where you are posting and can side-step it.:D
Obviously not.
Like a moth to a flame.
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With all the concerns in this thread we are still winning, right?
Anyone have any idea of enm killed? I have heard 35000.
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Nash, the incredible overoptimism and faith that the psy-ops guys put in themselves is legendary.
Unfortunately, they appear to have gotten far more than their usual opportunity to shape the plan this time.
They need to quit reading their own press releases.
It's always nice to dream though. And they had a lot of us convinced they were right this time. Turns out, though, that it's a war like most other wars.
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Originally posted by Toad
Obviously not.
Like a moth to a flame.
Hey, will you please give up being my personal hemorrhoid?
Just because you like the war thing doesn't mean I want to have a little message board war with you.
Shoo, fly. Go away.
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We're pressing up against the Iraqi armour where we're winning, but now comes the rear-area guerilla warfare where light, mobile troops would come in handy.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Expecting to win a war in a week is ridiculous.
Who expected to win this war in one week?
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You guys are saying that war doesn't always go the way it's originally planned?
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Rude.
Do you remember this?
Pongo....
There is no way on God's green earth that we will kill several hundred thousand people. Who sold you that bill of goods?
You watch.....we'll roll in and wait outside of Bagdad....they will give us the country. And if I'm wrong, I'll be the first one here to admit it.
Do you understand what an bellybutton you are?
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Well, "moth to a flame" wasn't a good analogy.
More like a moth to a floodlight. After all, you aren't incinerated each time you fly through; you just hit the lens and cycle back.
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
Gettin' a headache yet? :D
I certainly don't consider myself your personal itching affliction but I am truly amused at the irony of a guy that says he just can't stand to read this type of thread who then reads and posts in a bunch of them. Seems to me you give yourself your very own case of the red *ss. Self-inflicted 'roids. I mean, who doesn't laugh at that?
I don't like this war. In fact, if you do a search, you'll find I was opposed to this action before it started. Now that US troops are engaged, I want it over as fast as possible.
And, being the O-Club, I feel I can discuss it with those who also wish to discuss it.
And some that say they don't.
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
:D
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Lol... nice one. :)
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Originally posted by Pongo
Rude.
Do you remember this?
Do you understand what an bellybutton you are?
Well, if you're looking for me to admit that I was wrong as to waiting outside Bagdad and the victory being that simple....yes, I was wrong and openly admit it....if you're implying that I said it would be over in one week, then you're putting words in my mouth.
Killing hundreds of thousands of people won't happen...you would probably like to blame us for something like that, but I still feel that casualties will be minimal in the scope of what wars have produced in the past.
As to your personal insult directed at me, that too is wrong. If you had tried as hard to get to know me as you have trying to insult me, then we might be on better terms.
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Originally posted by Toad
Well, "moth to a flame" wasn't a good analogy.
More like a moth to a floodlight. After all, you aren't incinerated each time you fly through; you just hit the lens and cycle back.
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
Gettin' a headache yet? :D
I certainly don't consider myself your personal itching affliction but I am truly amused at the irony of a guy that says he just can't stand to read this type of thread who then reads and posts in a bunch of them. Seems to me you give yourself your very own case of the red *ss. Self-inflicted 'roids. I mean, who doesn't laugh at that?
I don't like this war. In fact, if you do a search, you'll find I was opposed to this action before it started. Now that US troops are engaged, I want it over as fast as possible.
And, being the O-Club, I feel I can discuss it with those who also wish to discuss it.
And some that say they don't.
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
:D
NOW THAT WAS INTERESTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
! [edit](I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT!)[/edit]
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Originally posted by Pongo
Rude.
Do you remember this?
Do you understand what an bellybutton you are?
Pongo... no offense but Rude's quote so far looks right on.
We're right outside of Bagdad... casualites have been verrrry low for BOTH sides and Saddam's Government could crash at any moment..especialy after his RG's are routed...
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lol Toad. :D
Squelch... with all due respect, bud, you haven't been here very long. Not your fault, but you should realise that this O-club discusses current affairs... alot. It always has done. The war is a very current affair right now, when it's over, the threads that discuss it will largely fizzle out and we will then start discussing the reconstruction of Iraq etc. That's the way it has worked. If that's not your thang, then, fair enough. But don't expect the O-club to change to questions about gardening, interior decor or Feng Shui. It just isn't going to happen. :)
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I mean..no one else on these boards cares
he shoots, he scores
nice shot Pongo !!!
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Originally posted by Dowding
lol Toad. :D
Squelch... with all due respect, bud, you haven't been here very long. Not your fault, but you should realise that this O-club discusses current affairs... alot. It always has done. The war is a very current affair right now, when it's over, the threads that discuss it will largely fizzle out and we will then start discussing the reconstruction of Iraq etc. That's the way it has worked. If that's not your thang, then, fair enough. But don't expect the O-club to change to questions about gardening, interior decor or Feng Shui. It just isn't going to happen. :)
I'm not new to the forum...just new to posting in it. I know how it works.
And I am not the only one who wants HT to stick up a 'War Forum'. People like you are just scared of change. It's not your fault.
:D
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bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
Has the bright light of reason shone through yet?
Or are you still in the "knocked senseless" self-imposed darkness?
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
But then, I guess I know the answer to that. Sorry for asking.
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Originally posted by Toad
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
Has the bright light of reason shone through yet?
Or are you still in the "knocked senseless" self-imposed darkness?
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
But then, I guess I know the answer to that. Sorry for asking.
This has been a successful hi-jack.
Thanks for your stupidity, Toad! :D
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Thanks, but I am truly not worthy.
I therefore humble myself and perform obeisance before the true master, your worshipfulness.
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So what subjects do you want to talk about? Start a thread, let's see what you're made of, old bean.
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Originally posted by Toad
Thanks, but I am truly not worthy.
I therefore humble myself and perform obeisance before the true master, your worshipfulness.
If it wasn't me, it would have been someone else.
:p
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Originally posted by Dowding
So what subjects do you want to talk about? Start a thread, let's see what you're made of, old bean.
O.K.
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And for the rest of the posters in this thread, let me say that I am much reassured and comforted by the news that the headlong rush to Baghdad is apparently slowed while new units are brought into theater.
The pending arrival of the 4th ID, supposedly our most advanced technically is a good thing. Estimates put them "combat ready" some time in mid-April. I think those troops will help secure the current situation. Also, a small part of the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment is otw as well with Helo's and GV's.
I don't think a Baghdad assault is going to happen for much longer than that.
Because: (from Knight Ridder)
And three armored units - the 1st Cavalry Division, the 1st Armored Division and the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment - are still in the United States or Europe and will not be in the Gulf region until mid- to late April.
So, I think there's been a reevaluation of the plan and we all might as well get comfortable because this could easily run into June the way it looks now. Obviously, they've alerted a lot more armor for deployment.
Of course, things are "fluid" as they say. ;)
Additionally,
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But like I was saying: you hard-core war devotees need a little a 'nest egg' of your own.
Because littering the board should a punishable offense.
:)
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Squelch, (how appropriate!)
There might have been others but none could possibly approach the magnitude of your eminence.
Squelch:
I'm not new to the forum...just new to posting in it. I know how it works.
Brings to mind the old admonition attributed to Mark Twain, doesn't it?
"It is better to sit in silence and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
As I've said many times before, we all paint our own portraits with our words here. You're painting very quickly. :)
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Originally posted by Toad
Squelch, (how appropriate!)
Brings to mind the old admonition attributed to Mark Twain, doesn't it?
Sure does. Do you, my friend, need a shovel, by chance??
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Why, have you finished with it?
Where's this ultra-interesting thread BTW? :D
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Nah.
Got my cooler, my lawn chair, a hibachi grill and some brats. It's just too much fun watching you dig yourself in deeper. And you're so fast and efficient, it's clear you need no help whatsoever.
Why with your help, this thread may well stay at the top of the list longer than any of the others you say you so despise.
bzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
Please do post again, anti "war thread" protester.
:D
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None taken bat dog. But you have to have some pretty serios brain washing happen to not see that between the failed apache strike and the iraqi couter attack. the Iraqis in Bagdad have stiffend in resolve not weakend.
There is not one man in the US military persueing a mass surrender strategy for the Iraqi military right now. They probably are focusing on the uprising strategy.
Rude
You see some horrible insult in me calling you an ass.
But your statement was indeed Assinine. Dont you agree. What possible evidence did you or Ruhmsfeld have that the Iraqis would collapse if you said BOO!
Yet that was the honest basis for this war plan. If the US thought it would have a 2-3-4 month hard slogging land war to take Iraq village by village and then Bagdad block by block. With civilians starving and dieing the whole time.
Do you think they would have rushed in there...
No they absolutley would not have.
But they felt like you. We are so tough and have such neat toys that the Iraqis wont fight us. But hate and indoctination make very powerful force multipliers. The Turks held strong for what ever reason and totaly and fundimentaly screwed the plan.
So the CIA finds some reason to light the candle on this baby before there can be a rational assesment of chances of success without the operations in the north..
I would imagine that the general on the ground has never liked a bit of this. But ruhmsfeld tends to get his way. I thought you guys had had your fill of political interference in waging war.
Anyway. This thing is far from lost or even ugly yet. But everything is in place to make it ugly and the US will have to escalate the damage a whole hell of a lot to win it. Since unconditional surrender has been the mind set of the US administration from the begining the Iraqis regime has nothing to lose. They know that everyone is coming for them.
I still wonder if that first stike didnt get Saddam. I havent seen a tv shot of him yet that convinced me. Obviosly the foriegn minister is alive..why not make it clear like that if Saddam is ok...
Sorry if thats too armchair generalish for some of you.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Why, have you finished with it?
Sure am. I can't dig EVERYONE out! ;)
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I think the psy-ops guys were way too overoptimistic; they always are.
The reinforcements now slated for the conflict show where Centcom thinks this is going now. It wouldn't be a stretch to assume these are the units Franks reportedly asked for to begin with, either.
I'm not sure though that the US would have backed away if they had known for certain it was a multi-month operation. And as far as the CIA making up Intel... that's a pretty aggressive charge. I don't think I buy that, given the risk of the truth coming out in the aftermath. Not impossible, but unlikely IMO.
Agree on Saddam. All they need to really rally the Iraqi people, if they are truly on Saddam's side, would be to show him making an innocuous statement that could only be known after the first attack on him. He could come on a praise by name the farmer that shot down the Apache for instance. What a morale boost, I'd think. But... nothing.
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Hey, squelch, thanks for the punt. Again. :)
The reason you can't dig anyone out should be obvious. No one else is down any where near as deep as you are.
I'll wager this post results in an "auto-punt" as well, so thanks in advance! :D
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I'm curious as to how much armor they think they'll be able to airlift into the north. As it stands right now, the 173rd will have just enough manpower to watch the Kurds and Turks and perhaps tackle on of the closer Iraqi cities. Kirkuk, I believe.
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Pongo....
I really don't pay much attention to the individual posters on this board....where have you stood regarding the US involvement in Iraq? Do you think we're wrong, right or just not very nice?
Let me know if ya would.
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Originally posted by Dowding
So what subjects do you want to talk about? Start a thread, let's see what you're made of, old bean.
He did already, extolling the virtues of owning pit bulls:rolleyes:
Squelch..a word of advice..Toad has the uncanny ability to make those who get into a post war with him look very silly, as demonstrated here.
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Well Rude..
The only noble thing you could hope to achieve is to improve the lives and goverment of Iraq. And kill few enough of them to make it seem worth the price.
Since no country in the world has a longer list of failures in dealing with Muslims then the US I think your chances of doing so are none.
Look at how long you effectivley ruled Iran and the outcome.
Look at how well you understood Osama bin ladin when you made him what he is. And Saddam.
Without any track record of success in many many attempts to manipulate muslims what possible chance do you think Bush has of improving the lives of the people of Iraq.
None.
So since Iraq is not threat militarily to the US or Britain. And they have no links to terror other then against Isreal which the US seems to be accepting as not terror at all. Why are you there.
To kill alot of Iraqis trying to kill one in partictular.
How can anyone be in favour of US boys being killed for such a purpose.
Neither Bush nor Ruhmsfeld would think it worth thier lives Im sure.
As you are certainly seening on the news..you are in fact fighting the people of Iraq. Not ever the intention that was expressed pre invasion. So now that apperenlty the Iraqis like Saddam more then the US can you put the genie back in the bottle...
So I was and am against it. Its not worth your boys blood as it wont work.
You are making a saladin out of Saddam. Your choices in the end will be to unload on him like you did on the south vietnamese when they chose to select their own government instead of the one you tried to force on them..or to negotiate a cease fire.
Your previos posts on what your feelings were read like a comic book. I think that Bush reads the same one.
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how do you win a war AND avoid civilian casualties?
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Pongo.....
Well...thanks for confirming what I already knew...appreciate the honesty.
I believe you to either be young, in which you have an excuse or just wrong. No point in discussing it any further, at least here on these boards....I prefer eye to eye discussions and I hate typing.
Later
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The bottom line on why we're there is because SH did not comply with the terms of the ceasefire for GW1.
That's where this all starts.
IMO.
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Originally posted by Rude
Pongo.....
Well...thanks for confirming what I already knew...appreciate the honesty.
I believe you to either be young, in which you have an excuse or just wrong. No point in discussing it any further, at least here on these boards....I prefer eye to eye discussions and I hate typing.
Later
We allready established who was wrong Rude.
You type another opinion and you'll be wrong again.. So its best for you that you pretend your above debating the issue.
My opinion that the US will be in for hell week in Iraq win or loose is a no brainer. You have to reach into the realm of science fiction to find a US goverment that has ever understood Muslims.
Just last week the US was sure that Turkey would cave in and let them launch from Turkish territory.
Myself I only spent 5 months living in a Turkish muslim village. And I dont pretend to understand them.
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This is no debate....insulting your opponent is not a debating skill I was taught in debate.
It's simple....you delight in American failures and hope you can add this current war to the same list you keep.
Regardless of what you might say in the future, I stand by my country, it's president and their decision to do what they and the vast majority in this country feel was necessary to protect America's long term interests, the interests of the Iraqi people and the Middle East in general.
I further contend that as to my original belief, that in the southern cities, had not the fedayeen kidnapped children, threatened Iraqi men and their families, we would have seen the very thing I originally stated....lack of a will to die for Saddam and a sincere gratitude for the chance for a better life. News of this form of liberation in the south, had it spread to Baghdad, which it may still, could result in a much easier realization of our goal and intent with a minimal loss of US and Iraqi life....that is what I remain hopeful for.
Communism was defeated in Russia and Eastern Europe politically...Germany and Japan required direct and intentional violence....the same will be necessary in Iraq.
I don't pretend to have all of the answers....I do however understand this....doing what is right in your own personal life or on the worlds stage, most often is not easy nor does it come without sacrifice.
This board is full of folks who stand on the sidelines, uninvolved either personally or by nationality, tossing out their so well informed opinions of the US and it's actions, all the while doing so completely for free. I have no respect for those people nor their methods.
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I don't think the people of Paris took to the streets waving US flags on D-Day +10 either. Paris wasn't liberated until August 25th, IIRC.
While I think the early estimates of the Psy-ops guys were typically over-optimisitc, I also think it's a bit premature to decide whether or not the Iraqis will be glad to see Saddam gone.
Given that the reports of the Iraqi paramilitaries shooting their own fleeing civilians, the reports of Iraqi POW's that their own officers were shooting their mates that didn't fight probably have some substance, I think we may have to wait until the threat is actually removed before we can make any informed judgement at all.
The people of Umm Qasr may well give us the first inkling of how we'll be received.
Until the threat of Saddam returning is permanently removed, I don't think we'll see their true feelings.
Again, time will tell.
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Your right I wasnt debating I was showing you how assinine your previos statements were. Now you have apperenlty disowned those statements. But that is assinine too. To deny that the estimate was ever made when you yourself made it.
Saying I delight in US casualties isnt really a form of debate. But you have villiefied every one that disagrees wth the war just on the principal that apperently anyone that thinks the US is wrong to invade is evil or stupid or cowardly.
I howerver have told you why the US is wrong and that must trouble you greatly.
You may or may not know that Germany and Japan both had existing diplomatic traditions that were reienforced by the allies after the war. They had existing standards of civility and comunity in their nations that had to be dusted off and reinforced by the allies after the war.
The US army has been in Germany for 59 years now. And the US military has had a presence in Japan for 58 years. Will you be in Iraq for that long?
In neither country have there ever been large scale post war guerilla activity. That will not be the case here.
No democratic tradition. No comunity no real nation. Seperate groups forced together by the Brits that largely hate each other.
You would do well to study the Palistininian situation more then the German and Japanese ones.
Im sure that people told your president that. At the same time they told him that Shock and Awe wouldnt work.
You cannot counter this postition Rude. It is the base truth. Total US success in the first day of the war would still face this truth. The US has no chance of a peaceful benevolent Iraq. All they can do is take control of those oil fields and fight a protracted guerrilla war. And of course kill Sadam. Bush has the power to force this war on your coutry without concultation. A great deal of the population of your country will support him as to do otherwise is deemed treacherous. The rest of the world is not so constrained. The US people dont know what they are getting into. You clearly do not.
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As to disowning any statements previously made, I stated the following...
Well, if you're looking for me to admit that I was wrong as to waiting outside Bagdad and the victory being that simple....yes, I was wrong and openly admit it....if you're implying that I said it would be over in one week, then you're putting words in my mouth.
Selective memory?
My mention of past regimes and dictatorships was direct and to the point...I never compared those in relation to establishing democracy in Iraq....that is a choice which they have not had to this point, but they will. What they choose to do with it will be their free decision to make...you against that as well?
As to a peaceful and benevolent Iraq, only you see the US as expecting that....we made a choice to disarm and remove Saddam and his ability to proliferate WMD in an effort to protect ourselves, and by that very same removal, we believe that the Iraqi people will fare much better without him than with him.
Oil? You're not one of those we're after their oil guys are ya?
And in closing this warm and friendly little chat we've had, I don't vilify anyone....perhaps it's the fact that you don't live here in the US...you don't have friends or relatives fighting in Iraq, you're bitter about some past childhood experience or you just don't like the Rude you seem to know so well. Whatever the case may be, this little exercise in futility has ended for me....got better things to do.
Cyas Up!
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Originally posted by Pongo
Bush has the power to force this war on your coutry without concultation.
Most of what you posted is opinion which you are indeed entitled to.
However, this just isn't true. Bush alone could not have launched this war. It too the acquiesence of Congress back in October of 2002 and the vote was strongly in favor in both houses of giving him authorization to use military force.
So there was and will continue to be consultation with the rest of the elected representation.
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You are correct Toad.
Rude.
Did you notice that once again you tried to find some trauma in my life to explain my deviate behavior of being opposed to the invasion of Iraq?
The double speak in your posts is comical. You never compared the German and Japan experiance to Iraq? Are you on crack? That is exaclty what you did.
Go back to your ignore mode. Your making an bellybutton of yourself again.
My mention of past regimes and dictatorships was direct and to the point...I never compared those in relation to establishing democracy in Iraq....that is a choice which they have not had to this point, but they will. What they choose to do with it will be their free decision to make...you against that as well?
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Ya know, why don't you just come clean and admit that you don't really care for me that much.
Just tell it like it is would ya and be done with it....at least I could respect that.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Expecting to win a war in a week is ridiculous.
Exactly... and will take as long as it takes.. Only the media expects a war to be won in a week..