Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Cherlie on March 27, 2003, 01:25:11 AM
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/27/sprj.irq.pows.executed/index.html
CB
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Pace on Iraqi war crimes: "I've never seen anything like this."
As sad as it is, all you need to do is open a history book and find that this has happened in pretty much every war the US participated in this century - and not every instance was committed by the other guys.
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Erlkonig, I just studied an opera by the same name in my music history class. Is that where you got your name?
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:mad:
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I hope they gonna hang those criminals just like neurenberg.
:(
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Nuremberg?
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Originally posted by Erlkonig
and not every instance was committed by the other guys.
Spit it out, say what you mean, dont hide behind vague
generalities.
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"They have executed prisoners of war," said Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in an interview on CNN's "Larry King Live."
Pace did not elaborate. Earlier in the day, Pentagon sources told CNN they were looking into a report that Iraqi soldiers shot dead seven U.S. Army soldiers as they were surrendering with their hands up Sunday.
Iraqi television showed video of five U.S. soldiers in custody after their capture Sunday and the bodies of at least five other soldiers who had bullet wounds to their foreheads.
Interesting. If this were the case, why did they let the other 5 US prisoners survive? Why didn't they kill all of the prisoners? Not good to leave witnesses to murderous actions that are against the Geneva Convention. Not saying that Iraqi troops didn't deliberately kill our troops after surrendering, but I'll need to see/hear proof of it before accepting it as fact.
DO NOT TAKE MY STATEMENT as somehow supporting Iraq and/or being against the US. Just pointing out we have to be careful of what we believe as truth and what can be propaganda. Every side of a conflict will bend the truth to suit their cause. They always have, they always will.
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I might get flamed here, but:
Did all captured Talibans enjoy Geneva convention rights ?
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They all had powderburns to their foreheads and every one of the dead that I could see had a bullet in the forehead. Maybe you think the iraq troops are that good shots, but I dont. The bastards shot them in the forehead at close enough range to leave powderburns- in other words they were executed.
Take A Look For Yourself (http://movies.ogrish.com/killedsoldiers.asf)
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Originally posted by Hristo
I might get flamed here, but:
Did all captured Talibans enjoy Geneva convention rights ?
Yes, most every taliban soldier was considered POW after some legal wrangling IIRC, al qaeda and other terrorists were not.
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Saburo..dont know. The fact that they clearly have bullet wounds in the forehead seem to show an execution like death or the Iraqi's have some serious sharp shooters...
The thing to remember is that these guys/glas would of had Kevlar Helmets on..this would of offered good protection to the forehead. This points out to a helmet removal... then being shot.
The odds are if it was an irregular force that captured them that it got out of hand...some where executed till it was decided that prisoners would better...
The Iraqi's hardcores will be doing quite abit of this sort of thing, get use to it. They are in the same boat as the Nazi's where in the final days of Hitler.
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One thing should be clear. No sides in this was will treat all prisoners fair. As the time passes, it will be more an more an exception.
Just as the time passes it will degenerate into urban fight slaughter, with reasons why it started long forgotten.
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I think we will treat them better than they will the American POW..
Sorry Hristo the USA just isn't that evil...
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Evil has nothing to do with it.
This conflict, IMO, will degenerate into several Beiruts.
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Evil?
War is inherently and universally evil.
Stop trying to moralise acts of war.
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Originally posted by Animal
Evil?
War is inherently and universally evil.
Stop trying to moralise acts of war.
This is really ****ty bait Animal... got to do better.
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Yeah, those nasty American GI's and those "civilized, sensitive, and caring" Iraqi death squads. They're just the same:
(http://www.foxnews.com/projects/photo_essay/iraq_war_day7/photos/3.jpg)
US Marine carries a wounded Iraqi soldier to an Aid Station.
C.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
They all had powderburns to their foreheads and every one of the dead that I could see had a bullet in the forehead. Maybe you think the iraq troops are that good shots, but I dont. The bastards shot them in the forehead at close enough range to leave powderburns- in other words they were executed.
Take A Look For Yourself (http://movies.ogrish.com/killedsoldiers.asf)
Ugh...went to that site...watched the film...sigh.
Prep the Daisy Cutters.
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Not only are we going to treat the iraqi pow's better than they are going to treat americans. We are going to treat iraqi's better than the iraq military treated its own people.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
This is really ****ty bait Animal... got to do better.
Not a bait, it just seems like you did not understand my point.
When you send soldiers to war, you dont expect them to be treated fairly. You have to expect them to get killed.
This is sad, but not something to be amazed or outraged at.
You wanted war? here you have it.
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Oh I see the misunderstaning Animal.
I'm not shocked that the Iraqis executed our POWs, I fully expected the bastards would do it given how brutal they often were in gulf war one. That I expected and it was no suprise.
However what I didnt excpect, but should have of course, were the ever so thoughful, comparative, and relativitic posts about obvious executions as seen in this thread.
Hell I was even begging to think that US GIs in WW2 were not every bit as evil as the SS camp guards - imagine that - thanks for setting me straight!
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Originally posted by Animal
Not a bait, it just seems like you did not understand my point.
When you send soldiers to war, you dont expect them to be treated fairly. You have to expect them to get killed.
This is sad, but not something to be amazed or outraged at.
You wanted war? here you have it.
So when Iraqi's shoot American POW's its "war."
But if/when American's shoot Iraqi POW's... hmm... can you imagine the public outcry? More protests, we're all babykillers, Bush is Hitler, Weazel for President, Hail Victory!, goosestepping morons, death to Ameerika, Islam is peace, praise Allah, long live Palestine, Impeialist bastard, Caesar Rumsfield, etc etc etc.
Why is there a double standard? There are rules and regulations that civilized countries are supposed to follow regarding POW's. Im pretty sure executing prisoners by shooting them in the head at close range is covered in those rules.
If nothing else, Saddam is proving to the rest of the world that Iraq is run more like a terrorist organization than a soveriegn nation.
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So, you would like it so we also shot their soldiers?
We made the choice not to do that sort of thing. It was our civilized choice and you cant expect every country to follow the same standards, specially Iraq, you know how they treat their own civilians, why would you expect to treat enemy soldiers any better?
Everyone should have known these would be the consequences of fighting them. The leaders and strategos knew it and expected it. As you should have.
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we will win.
we will find some of these turds. we will kill some of them for atrocities. after the requiste trial.
it will have to be enough.
till next time.
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just a observaton
after a fight the first thing you do is make shure everybodys dead. to do this you can shoot them anywhere but head is most efficient.
if they are dead they dont bleed from the enterance wound if it is not a natural flowing position.
there was only one guy with a head wound i could see in the video of the dead soldiers. (the one that started with a 6 x 6 and tank trailer with two dead us combatants with full gear/helmets.)
first he had no blood flow from the wound and no powder burns near the wound so in my estimation the only one i could see was a finishing shot. the rest of the wounds were consistant with med to long long range fire from pros probly a ambush. few hits mostly chest and groin i.e. quick kills from folks who have done this before. militia would have torn them up worse tend to shoot full auto ect. sadam probly had at least a few really good mercinarys how many bad bellybutton ex russian opps dudes are available for dirt to do ANYTHING.
its a war yes but war has rules but how it happend made all the difference.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
just a observaton
after a fight the first thing you do is make shure everybodys dead. to do this you can shoot them anywhere but head is most efficient.
I was going to point this out also but ya beat me to it :p
Anyway...I think that Seal Team 6 uses this SOP also as insurance so they don't have any nasty surprises.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
They all had powderburns to their foreheads and every one of the dead that I could see had a bullet in the forehead. Maybe you think the iraq troops are that good shots, but I dont. The bastards shot them in the forehead at close enough range to leave powderburns- in other words they were executed.
Take A Look For Yourself (http://movies.ogrish.com/killedsoldiers.asf)
Sorry to disagree but remember our troops have been moving since 3-4 days straight with out the luxury of a shower or cleaning up. Not all had powder burns. Are you sure that all those are bullet wounds? One definitely is. The others probably. A couple might not be. Could any of those wounds have been caused by grenade, mortar fragments?
I'll ask this again, if the Iraqi troops/militia executed our troops, why didn't they execute the remaining 5? Are you implying they had a change of heart mid-execution to spare the lives of the remaining 5? Especially since they would be eyewitnesses to such atrocities?
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Animal ~S~! Sir.
My thoughts exactly.
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Originally posted by Animal
So, you would like it so we also shot their soldiers?
We made the choice not to do that sort of thing. It was our civilized choice and you cant expect every country to follow the same standards, specially Iraq, you know how they treat their own civilians, why would you expect to treat enemy soldiers any better?
Everyone should have known these would be the consequences of fighting them. The leaders and strategos knew it and expected it. As you should have.
Well... yes Animal... but that doesnt excuse it. Its simply a reflection of who and what we are fighting and who and what is in power.
Yes, the US HAS done this in the past... cant argue that. It was the exception rather than the rule though. This sort of thing has been the rule for the Iraqi government only towards thier own.
The sad thing is that we. the US and our allies are going to great lengths to avoid hurting the helpless.
The arguement that are fighting for thier country is no excuse... simply becuase these indiv's are fighting for self presavation..not country. They know that many/most in thier nation will wish to treat them as they have treated thier own...
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No excuse for it, and I hope they get what is coming to them... but this is the type of fight we have chosen by initiating this war and and attempting to topple a foreign country that had not previously attacked us. If someone did that to this country, I doubt we would "fight fair" either. I know I wouldn't.
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Yes davidpt40, but I'm not sure it's actually considered an opera. But in any case...
X2Lee - I said what I meant.
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Your Avatar is funny Elfen King :)
You still play IL2, AH?
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Originally posted by Lance
No excuse for it, and I hope they get what is coming to them... but this is the type of fight we have chosen by initiating this war and and attempting to topple a foreign country that had not previously attacked us. If someone did that to this country, I doubt we would "fight fair" either. I know I wouldn't.
Yes, I'm sure the 2 terrorist camps we have blown up there so far practice their terror on every nation but the US.
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If/when the cheese brought back from the moon landings is finally processed ......
:D
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
But if/when American's shoot Iraqi POW's...
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I'll ask this again, if the Iraqi troops/militia executed our troops, why didn't they execute the remaining 5?
isn't it possible the Iraqis used killed the troops in front of the remaining 5 to help 'persuade' them?
and do we know they 5 are still alive?
I'm all for honor, kumbaya and all that but when it comes to a country that's obviously trying evil trick in the book against us I think it's time to be more pessemistic about their motives.
btw, in the video..
notice all the pooled blood by the head wounds?
definately not shrapnel .
to our fallen comrades, Rest in Peace.
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Hiya's,
Here in the UK the news has been carrying confirmation of the the two Brit Servicemen murdered
Gave their names and one was from just down the A38 from me
Said their families had been informed etc so guess it's official
Hope the "after-conflict" courts go for the death sentence (dunno if this still applies to scum like this, Bet the libs have done away with it ?)
And while i'm at it let the army do the courtroom stuff as it seems to be quicker and less costly than long-winded darn normal courts where they're gonna cost the taxpayer more n make lawyers richer
Give em a fair n swift trial (unlike their victims) then do away with em
Think line goes somert like this for this instance
An eye for an eye sayeth the lord (in this case a bullet for a bullet)
Can't see that this opinion of mine can lead me into trouble with htc but if it offends be my guest n remove
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You're British?
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Hiya's,
For my sins yes, Born in england now living back in england from an exile over the border in wales ;) lol
Why you ask ??
If it's about UK/Britain being diff etc i simply call myself british and if questioned chuck in born in england
I see myself personally as a brit and english second
Can't help where ya born but ya can sure help how you act about it :D
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LOL ... nonono ... where you're from is fine. And, personally, I like Great Britain alot. I've often daydreamed of visiting. It's just weird. You sound more like you're from south of the Mason-Dixon line. ;)
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Originally posted by Hristo
One thing should be clear. No sides in this was will treat all prisoners fair. As the time passes, it will be more an more an exception.
Just as the time passes it will degenerate into urban fight slaughter, with reasons why it started long forgotten.
Just in case anyone would be interested to know, I'd like to take a moment to make something perfectly clear to anyone who would think otherwise.
Coalition forces and especially U.S. forces do not, have not and will not conduct themselves in a manner... ANY manner remotely similar to what any "opposition" may, or have. To think otherwise is absolutely ludicrous. Troops who DO commit atrocities will be held accountable and treated in accordance with the UCMJ, and international law... as stated earlier, we just aren't "evil" that way. We train on LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict) and every soldier, sailor, marine and airman is well versed in these "rules". We do NOT execute prisoners, torture, rape or otherwise brutalize them... period.
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dude your on crack.
been there and your wrong.
what happens is totaly dependent on the luey on the spot.
people get waxed by mistake all the time. and it just gets lost.
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Wow dolf what war did you see this in?
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Let's see... I'm in a poor country and I'm invaded by a vastly richer country. I have some prisoners, but they cost me resources to house and feed them that could be directed to my fighting forces. I'm probably going to lose anyway and I can't see the possibility of a prisoner exchange as being necessary. What to do? What to do?
From an economic, logistic and nationalistic perspective, it makes perfect sense to simply put a bullet in their heads.
Certainly, we can add the morality spin to it... it's a good motivational tool, but that's about it. War is hell. Get used to it.
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You could condense that to:
"Hail Saddam" *blam* "Now bring the women who accepted food and water from the evil invaders for their children ... oh and their children."
Yep ... I call that a "motivational tool".
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Let's see... I'm in a poor country and I'm invaded by a vastly richer country. I have some prisoners, but they cost me resources to house and feed them that could be directed to my fighting forces. I'm probably going to lose anyway and I can't see the possibility of a prisoner exchange as being necessary. What to do? What to do?
From an economic, logistic and nationalistic perspective, it makes perfect sense to simply put a bullet in their heads.
Certainly, we can add the morality spin to it... it's a good motivational tool, but that's about it. War is hell. Get used to it.
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Not suprised a bit.
However, the Iraqis are drawing a line here that's bound to be noticed by their opponents.
How many of you Americans know the slogan "Remember the Alamo!" ?
How many Americans or Brits are likely to surrender now, knowing what they know now?
It's a motivational tool all right.
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I blocked lord dolf doofus a long time ago... but let me take a shot at an appropriate reply...
...Lord, your full of horse**** as usual.
Ok anyone want to rate my accuracy?
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(looks through range scope)
Dead on from here.
Second opinion?
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the first one
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I went through UPT with four of your country men... if your location is correct.
Did you spend some time here?
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Originally posted by Defiance
Hiya's,
Here in the UK the news has been carrying confirmation of the the two Brit Servicemen murdered
Gave their names and one was from just down the A38 from me
Said their families had been informed etc so guess it's official
Hope the "after-conflict" courts go for the death sentence (dunno if this still applies to scum like this, Bet the libs have done away with it ?)
And while i'm at it let the army do the courtroom stuff as it seems to be quicker and less costly than long-winded darn normal courts where they're gonna cost the taxpayer more n make lawyers richer
Give em a fair n swift trial (unlike their victims) then do away with em
Think line goes somert like this for this instance
An eye for an eye sayeth the lord (in this case a bullet for a bullet)
Can't see that this opinion of mine can lead me into trouble with htc but if it offends be my guest n remove
Just watched the film for the first time......................... ............................. ............................. ............................. ............................. ..................can't think what to say.
I have no doubt after watching those films that those guys where executed.
Kill em all.
****in bastards
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****in bastards
\
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Originally posted by Lance
No excuse for it, and I hope they get what is coming to them... but this is the type of fight we have chosen by initiating this war and and attempting to topple a foreign country that had not previously attacked us. If someone did that to this country, I doubt we would "fight fair" either. I know I wouldn't.
The $25,000 contributions to suicide bombers familieis (documented) and the civilian airliner parked in terrorist training compound pretty much convince me that this country had, and will plan out attacks against the United States.
"Had not previously attacked us???"
We'll never know. But I'm willing to bet it has.
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Hey Wontan, I'm sorry to say that my new religion says that I can't play video games no mo'. At least until I get out of bankruptcy.
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Undergraduate Pilot Training.
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"Coalition forces and especially U.S. forces do not, have not and will not conduct themselves in a manner... ANY manner remotely similar to what any "opposition" may, or have. To think otherwise is absolutely ludicrous. Troops who DO commit atrocities will be held accountable and treated in accordance with the UCMJ, and international law... as stated earlier, we just aren't "evil" that way. We train on LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict) and every soldier, sailor, marine and airman is well versed in these "rules". We do NOT execute prisoners, torture, rape or otherwise brutalize them... period."
tumor
this whole statment is patently and confirmably false.
please plug in american military atrocities into google tumor.
162,000 hits
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=american+military+atrocities&btnG=Google+Search
there are many many well recorded instances where american military forces have NOT TAKEN PRISONERS oftimes under orders.
there was a thread here a week ago where your conservative bretheran advocated torture in cuba and showed no remorse for the deaths of individualys who never saw a coartroom. well guess why we aren't supposed to torture people. can you guess now ?
you still pretend your patriotic spew is correct? pity is all you get
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Back up Tumor... Google turned up 162,000 hits.
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Heh, did you take a bother to read any of those 162,000 hits?
Obviously not, or you wouldn't have posted the link.
You are right about one thing, though. I feel no remorse for the torture and death of the terrorist in Cuba.
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G, yes.
Did you spend some time in the States though? Your use of US idiom is awfully good.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Back up Tumor... Google turned up 162,000 hits.
huh? 162,000 hits of what?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Hehe, thanks. Worked as a UN liaison with the US and Canadians. No I have not been to the States yet. I'd love to take a month vacation to the US sometime in the foreseeable future, rent a car and just drive around and "see America". However, I have a student loan and a car loan now, and I'm refurbishing my apartment, so we're talking years. If I get my PPL-A first, maybe I'll rent a plane instead of a car. :)
I surely wouldn't recommend renting a car to see the US. It's far to big and would cost you a small fortune. I'd buy a cheap used car when you get here. It will cost you FAR less. I have several friends that have visited here and done that.
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This has gone far enough as far as I am concerned for some folks on the bbs.
animal, there are rules of war and they are to be followed. Those who do not follow them can be expected to be prosecuted and that goes for ALL sides of the combat. The US Armed Forces are all trained as to what is acceptable in combat. Shooting the wounded is not acceptable. We have in fact prosecuted our own for violations of those rules. Since you have not served please do not expound on what it is like in the military or combat. You have no basis for your statements.
dork faded, there is NO justification for your premise about making sure all the wounded are dead. You are obviously talking trash (no surprise there) and have no clue about American Military operations including treatment of wounded to include the enemy.