Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Boroda on March 27, 2003, 01:30:37 PM
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I just want to make some things clear.
When I said that this war will lead to an economical collapse in Russia I didn't mean Russia is economically linked to Saddam. Russian companies have contracts in Iraq, and one of them already started a lawsuit against American government. Their losses are no more then $19 million, they were building a powerstation. But it's all nonsence, too small in national scale.
The problem is that the after the war oil prices will drop down. Russian economics depends on it, budget is based on estimated prices at $21 per barrel. If it will drop to $18 expected by some experts - we'll have another crisis here. If it will drop to pessimistic $10 - Russian government can simply close the office and thank everyone for the effort.
The Iaqi debts are large, more then $8 billion. But they never bothered to pay them. AFAIK it was a Soviet policy to give credits on such easy conditions. It looks pretty stupid because in mid-70s Saddam slaughtered all Iraqi communists. At school I studied with a guy who is a son of Iraqi communist and Russian woman. He was brought up to "become a terrorist and kill Saddam"...
Another interesting thing is that Russian oil companies were thrown out of Iraq, and their contracts broken 2-3 months ago.
I really don't understand our government position. Russia is interested in a loyal regime in Iraq, Saddam isn't our "friend" as many conservative left politicians say. ("Left"=commie/nationalistic = conservative here in Russia) Maybe Putin understands anti-American and anti-war mood in Russian society that developed after criminal agression against Yugoslavia?
Another thing to think about: today was the first time I heard our first TV channel calling "coalition" forces "intervents" and "occupants". :(
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You're saying that Russia needs conflict and instability in the middle east to help keep oil prices inflated and save their economy?
Are you familiar with the term "Nationalism" baroda?
MiniD
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What criminal aggression against Yogoslavia?
Elfie
Armageddon Pile-it
HiTech give us Napalm
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The action in Kosovo was not madated by the UN, was not in self-defence and therefore might be described as illegal in some quarters.
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Originally posted by Mini D
You're saying that Russia needs conflict and instability in the middle east to help keep oil prices inflated and save their economy?
Are you familiar with the term "Nationalism" baroda?
MiniD
I mean that oil prices will drop immediately after "coalition" will install a "democratic" regime in Iraq, controlled from Washington :(
If you read my post carefully - you could see that I used the word "nationalistic" there.
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Russian economics is a bit of an oxymoron.
Russia is nothing more than a mafia run money laundry.
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Guys remember Hitech said to be civil. The last US vs Russia thread got locked.
Back on topic: I wouldn't be so certain that Iraq will have a big effect on oil prices.
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low oil prices =bad for russia , good for USA
well,for russia the war is about oil and money, how many iraqis must saddam kill to keep the russian economy working?
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Originally posted by Boroda
I mean that oil prices will drop immediately after "coalition" will install a "democratic" regime in Iraq, controlled from Washington :(
Would it drop below where it was a year ago? Why would that happen?
MiniD
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Russia errored in a big way not supporting this war to remove the arab gangster hussein. With 8 billion to lose I would have called it better than putin did. You guys will be hard pressed now.
If France Germany and Russia would have supported this deal, might not have had to fire a shot.
Thanks for support russia.
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Russia is interested in a loyal regime in Iraq, Saddam isn't our "friend" as many conservative left politicians say. ("Left"=commie/nationalistic = conservative here in Russia) Maybe Putin understands anti-American and anti-war mood in Russian society that developed after criminal agression against Yugoslavia?
I think you have the right idea. It's not about doing what's right or what's best for your country. It's about getting re-elected. This is what drives all politicians. :(
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Any country that exports oil benefits from instability in the mid-east. The idea of oil dropping to $10 a barrel is not likely, the price usually stablises between $15 and $20 when there is no major problem in the mideast.
There are probably a few Russian gangsters who will lose money because of this war, and they are the ones screaming about the potential for disaster in Russia.
ra
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Boroda makes some good points that I never knew before.
One must remember to look at things from his side...scarey though it may be.
Personally, I'd bet that if Boroda were to visit one (or many) of us here in the USA he'd be surprised to find that we're all basically the same underneath. Not governments, but basic people.
we have friends (hopefully),we drink, we have fun, we love our families and desire some stability in our lives.
and most of us are frustrated in some form or other because world events are out of our control.
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Boroda how is our involvement in Kosovo *criminal*? Do you think we should have let those people be murdered, or driven from their homes?
If I see a bank being robbed and have the means to stop the robbery...but instead do nothing. Doesn't that make me an accomplice and just as guilty as the robbers? If your answer is yes, then how would you defend your country's reluctance to help out in Kosovo and now in Iraq? Both Kosovo and Iraq had/have crimes against humanity going on. If you stand by and do nothing, you support those crimes with your inaction.
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
Boroda makes some good points that I never knew before.
One must remember to look at things from his side...scarey though it may be.
Personally, I'd bet that if Boroda were to visit one (or many) of us here in the USA he'd be surprised to find that we're all basically the same underneath. Not governments, but basic people.
we have friends (hopefully),we drink, we have fun, we love our families and desire some stability in our lives.
and most of us are frustrated in some form or other because world events are out of our control.
Very well put.
I think that is the main issue with most of these board wars.
If I lived in Russia, I probably wouldn't understand our fear of terrorism, for whatever reason. And if he lived here, he most likely would understand how we feel about it.
Unless he turned out to be like that protestor I whacked with my car "on accident" the other day when he jumped into the street with his sign.
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If France Germany and Russia would have supported this deal, might not have had to fire a shot.
Yeager has a point here. Russia however didn't support the first Gulf war if my memory is correct. By not showing a united front against Saddam we give him hope that the rest of the world might actually stop the coalition. This in turn will make the war last longer, and cost MORE lives.
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Unless he turned out to be like that protestor I whacked with my car "on accident" the other day when he jumped into the street with his sign.
lol
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Originally posted by Elfie
Russia however didn't support the first Gulf war if my memory is correct.
The Soviet Union supported the UN resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq during the first conflict.
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And to think, I was bending over backwards to be civil in that one. :D
Originally posted by funkedup
Guys remember Hitech said to be civil. The last US vs Russia thread got locked.
Back on topic: I wouldn't be so certain that Iraq will have a big effect on oil prices.
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I'm sure mother Russia will find a country on the verge of war to sell their weapons to. Maybe Bo is right, it will be cold war all over again ;)
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mmf...your all a bunch of doomsayers
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
Boroda makes some good points that I never knew before.
One must remember to look at things from his side...scarey though it may be.
Personally, I'd bet that if Boroda were to visit one (or many) of us here in the USA he'd be surprised to find that we're all basically the same underneath. Not governments, but basic people.
we have friends (hopefully),we drink, we have fun, we love our families and desire some stability in our lives.
and most of us are frustrated in some form or other because world events are out of our control.
Wlfgng, I know that Americans are nice and friendly people. I have been to the US in 1989, as an exchange student. Last summer I had an honour to be a host for Leonid (Greg Guerrero), one of the most nice people I have met.
Any state is an enemy of the people, and, according to Lenin - "an instrument of suppressing the personality". It's one of the few things on which I agree with Lenin :(
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Originally posted by Elfie
Boroda how is our involvement in Kosovo *criminal*? Do you think we should have let those people be murdered, or driven from their homes?
If I see a bank being robbed and have the means to stop the robbery...but instead do nothing. Doesn't that make me an accomplice and just as guilty as the robbers? If your answer is yes, then how would you defend your country's reluctance to help out in Kosovo and now in Iraq? Both Kosovo and Iraq had/have crimes against humanity going on. If you stand by and do nothing, you support those crimes with your inaction.
the problem that in Kosovo NATO was on the side who committed crimes against humanity.
NATO killed 10 times more people then died in a Kosovo anti-terrorist operation on both sides. NATO helped Albanian terrorists and drug-dealers against Serbian police forces, and in fact established a fundamental Moslim terrorist anclave in Europe. Fortunately, an attempt to continue in Macedonia failed.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Wlfgng, I know that Americans are nice and friendly people. I have been to the US in 1989, as an exchange student. Last summer I had an honour to be a host for Leonid (Greg Guerrero), one of the most nice people I have met.
Any state is an enemy of the people, and, according to Lenin - "an instrument of suppressing the personality". It's one of the few things on which I agree with Lenin :(
Baroda,
I've lived in many other countries through work. Never Russia though. I've enjoyed almost every one of them. While I'm not claiming to be an expert of ANY country's political system, including my own, I do feel I have a decent understanding of many of them.
I have noticed that the US is different to most countries. First, in order for democracy to work like it does for us, the people, including the politicians, truly have to want it to work. With the exception of the far ends of the spectrum, americans want it to work.
Secondly, most americans are extremely cynical by nature. They don't trust politicans. Whether this is right or wrong is irrelevant. It keeps the politicians under scrutiny.
Third, EVERYONE in the US has an opinion and gets to voice it. We have EXTREME left wingers AND right wingers. Following either side would be wrong, so fortunately in most cases the country is forced to compromise and takes the middle. Usually the middle is the right way to go.
Our press is not filtered censored, it's slanted. It's privately owned. For example, New York Times is an extremely liberal paper. If you follow the headlines, they all post "doom and gloom" in Iraq while printing the exact same story. They want the US to win, but they want heavy losses (not neccessarily in lives). Why? Because they hate Bush, and that would make him look bad. The Union Leader makes it look like Bush ****s! gold nuggets for the Iraqis, because they love him. We've learned to read between the lines, and form our own opinion. America is certainly not short of opinions.
We are arrogant. We DO think we are the best nation on earth, and noone will ever convince me otherwise. The fact that I can have my voice heard in the highest level of politics and have it matter shows that. Are we perfect? No, and some countries are much better than us in some areas. I think US wins hands down overall, though. I love other countries, I enjoy living in them, but when I come home I see how much nicer it is here.
I think Americans as a whole HONESTLY want to help other nations have what we do. Perhaps this is wrong, but I feel once they got a taste of it, they'd love it. The US doesn't have many emmigrants, but the immigrant rate is unreal. That tells me something.
I think I hijacked my own reply again.
Anyway, feel free to continue calling me a ****bag. I just think many people don't understand.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Very well put.
I think that is the main issue with most of these board wars.
If I lived in Russia, I probably wouldn't understand our fear of terrorism, for whatever reason. And if he lived here, he most likely would understand how we feel about it.
You repeat exactly what most of the Russians said about Americans and Euro human rights freaks in Autumn, 1999, when Chechens started blowing up apartment buildings in Moscow and other Russian cities, after their invasion to Dagestan was defeated by Russian army and Dagestan people's militia.
That's why Russia supported an anti-terrorist alliance immediately after 9/11. But the new-born alliance meant only Russia supporting anti-Taliban forces in Afghanistan, while mr. Rumsfield made stupid statments about possible military action against Russia, protecting "souverenity" of Georgia that openly harboured Chechen terrorists.
:(
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Originally posted by Boroda
You repeat exactly what most of the Russians said about Americans and Euro human rights freaks in Autumn, 1999, when Chechens started blowing up apartment buildings in Moscow and other Russian cities, after their invasion to Dagestan was defeated by Russian army and Dagestan people's militia.
That's why Russia supported an anti-terrorist alliance immediately after 9/11. But the new-born alliance meant only Russia supporting anti-Taliban forces in Afghanistan, while mr. Rumsfield made stupid statments about possible military action against Russia, protecting "souverenity" of Georgia that openly harboured Chechen terrorists.
:(
Even most of us conservative Americans think Rumsfeld is an Ass.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Anyway, feel free to continue calling me a ****bag. I just think many people don't understand.
Sorry, did I call you bad words?... :rolleyes: It's nice to have a good discussion without any people blaming Russia in all possible sins including raping all german population in 1945, regardless to their sex.
Describing American people you said things that can as well describe current situation in Russia, with all that free press things. The main difference is that after Soviet times we are very tired of helping anyone who declares they are building Socialism. We'd better help ourselves and leave other nations internal problems to them.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Even most of us conservative Americans think Rumsfeld is an Ass.
Is it true that he was a defence secretary once before in 70s?Current US politics reminds me of Brzezinsky and his brilliant programms of economica, political and territorial destruction of Russia :(
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Originally posted by Boroda
Is it true that he was a defence secretary once before in 70s?Current US politics reminds me of Brzezinsky and his brilliant programms of economica, political and territorial destruction of Russia :(
Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense under Gerald Ford. As well, Dick Cheney became Ford's Chief of Staff after Rumsfeld was promoted from that job to the cabinet position.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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We'd better help ourselves and leave other nations internal problems to them.
that's what most American people think.. but not the politicians
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Rumsfeld was Secretary of Defense under Gerald Ford. As well, Dick Cheney became Ford's Chief of Staff after Rumsfeld was promoted from that job to the cabinet position.
That explains the deja-vu I feel when I listen to them...
:(
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It's nice to have a good discussion without any people blaming Russia in all possible sins including raping all german population in 1945, regardless to their sex.
I did a search on Google with these parameters "Soviet Union" "rape" "Germany" "1945". I was rewarded with at least 10 pages of results.
The authorities in Moscow traditionally deny German allegations of mass rape at the end of the war. But during his research, Beevor discovered internal Red Army documents which prove that the Soviet High Command was well aware that some of their soldiers were running out of control. Even more shocking is Beevor's discovery in the Red Army files that Red Army troops also raped Russian women after their release from Nazi slave labour camps in Germany.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/berlin_05.shtml
Here's the link listing search results.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Soviet+Union%22++%22rape%22++%22Germany%22+%221945%22
This subject might be worth a few minutes of your time Boroda. Educating oneself on your own countries mistakes is not a bad thing. America at one time had huge numbers of black slaves. We also drove the natives onto reservations under threat of death. We even had our own version of the *Bataan Death March* (Cherokee Trail of Tears).
I have found the O'Club to be stimulating, forcing me to think about *why* I believe certain things, and has even rekindled my interest in current affairs :p
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Originally posted by Boroda
the problem that in Kosovo NATO was on the side who committed crimes against humanity.
NATO killed 10 times more people then died in a Kosovo anti-terrorist operation on both sides. NATO helped Albanian terrorists and drug-dealers against Serbian police forces, and in fact established a fundamental Moslim terrorist anclave in Europe. Fortunately, an attempt to continue in Macedonia failed.
Can you post links that further explain this postion?
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Originally posted by Boroda
I mean that oil prices will drop immediately after "coalition" will install a "democratic" regime in Iraq, controlled from Washington :(
word "nationalistic" there.
(protesting)
BOOOOO, let the U.N. run the post-war show, not USA. If not, Boroda will go poor:D
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I found this in some other message board. I cannot verify if it's accurate or skewed or fiction, but post it here because it is on topic of Russias losses to a defeated Iraq. And the $8 billion ties in with what Baroda was saying.
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According to the CIA World Factbook, Russia controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq’s annual imports. Under the U.N. oil-for-food program, Russia’s total trade with Iraq was somewhere between $530 million and $1 billion for the six months ending in December of 2001.
According to the Russian Ambassador to Iraq, Vladimir Titorenko, new contracts worth another $200 million under the U.N. oil-for-food program are to be signed over the next three months.
Soviet-era debt of $7 billion through $8 billion was generated by arms sales to Iraq during the 1980–1988 Iran–Iraq war.
Russia’s LUKoil negotiated a $4 billion, 23-year contract in 1997 to rehabilitate the 15 billion-barrel West Qurna field in southern Iraq. Work on the oil field was expected to commence upon cancellation of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. The deal is currently on hold.
In October 2001, Salvneft, a Russian–Belarus company, negotiated a $52 million service contract to drill at the Tuba field in Southern Iraq.
In April 2001, Russia’s Zaruezhneft company received a service contract to drill in the Saddam, Kirkuk, and Bai Hassan fields to rehabilitate the fields and reduce water incursion.
A future $40 billion Iraqi–Russian economic agreement, reportedly signed in 2002, would allow for extensive oil exploration opportunities throughout western Iraq. The proposal calls for 67 new projects, over a 10-year time frame, to explore and further develop fields in southern Iraq and the Western Desert, including the Suba, Luhais, West Qurna, and Rumaila projects. Additional projects added to the deal include second-phase construction of a pipeline running from southern to northern Iraq, and extensive drilling and gas projects. Work on these projects would commence upon cancellation of sanctions.
Russia’s Gazprom company over the past few years has signed contracts worth $18 million to repair gas stations in Iraq.
The former Soviet Union was the premier supplier of Iraqi arms. From 1981 to 2001, Russia supplied Iraq with 50 percent of its arms.
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Not only did they rape German women but they also raped German children and raped them while their parents and a crowd watched in horror that couldn't do anything due to the heavily armed soldiers,not only that but there's a story of how a russian platoon raped a young girl and her mother repedeatly until both died from internal bleeding . Having a submachine gun pointed at your head is a deterrant and empowerment for these honorable war criminals during the last months of WW2. Disgusting.
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Jeez what is the rape incident in the former nazi germany have to do with the war economy in russia????
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Originally posted by Glasses
Not only did they rape German women but they also raped German children and raped them while their parents and a crowd watched in horror that couldn't do anything due to the heavily armed soldiers,not only that but there's a story of how a russian platoon raped a young girl and her mother repedeatly until both died from internal bleeding . Having a submachine gun pointed at your head is a deterrant and empowerment for these honorable war criminals during the last months of WW2. Disgusting.
Is "Blond knight of Reich" the only book you have read?...
What makes me go crazy is that "evil communists" were starving the "knight" to death, giving him ONLY 600g of bread, 50g of sugar and 30g of butter daily. Damn. And they fed him while children were starving all over the country in 1947...
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Originally posted by Elfie
I did a search on Google with these parameters "Soviet Union" "rape" "Germany" "1945". I was rewarded with at least 10 pages of results.
Russians also ate all German children after they raped them
Beevor simply can't be called a "historian". I am tired of all this crap.
Again, and for the last time. Any Soviet soldier accused in rape and maraudery had to be executed in front of his unit. Unlike "allies", Soviet command fought all this crimes with iron hand.
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Again, and for the last time. Any Soviet soldier accused in rape and maraudery had to be executed in front of his unit. Unlike "allies", Soviet command fought all this crimes with iron hand.
Maybe this is why the Soivets gave Berlin to the soldiers for 3 days and allowed the rape/loot/pillage. Like I suggested to you before Boroda, it's not a bad thing to educate oneself on your countries mistakes. Beevor was not the only historian that my google search came up with. There are far to many documented cases of this happening for it to be false.
On the other hand I guess you can do like the Japanese with regards to thier war crimes and pretend they didnt happen.
No country is perfect Boroda, EVERY gov't makes their share of mistakes. I have already listed several of my country's mistakes.
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Yes of course they did. Mother Russia never fails in their quest for justice :rolleyes:
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Berlin was given to Russian soldiers for 3 days to plunder!?
Where the hell did you read it!?
Every Soviet soldier had the strict limit - 16 kilograms of trophy he can bring or send home.
Damn, had to edit the post 2 times...