Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on March 28, 2003, 11:46:21 AM
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From the Atlanta Journal Constitution, 3/26/03:
Pinched Delta gives bonuses to execs last year
By RUSSELL GRANTHAM
Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer
Executives at Delta Air Lines got cash bonuses totaling $17.3 million last year, as the company posted huge losses, slashed thousands of jobs and sought millions of dollars in federal aid.
Delta used another $25.5 million in cash to create special funds guaranteeing certain executives' pensions in the event of a bankruptcy, according to a filing the Atlanta-based airline made Tuesday with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
The filing shows that Chairman and Chief Executive Leo Mullin got the biggest bonus, $1.4 million, in addition to his full salary of $795,000, for a total of $2.2 million in cash pay. It was the highest amount Mullin has received in his 5 1/2 years at Delta.
Delta had given no executive bonuses in 2001, but last year retooled its bonus formula to make them possible despite $1.3 billion in losses.
Company documents show executives were aware the pension changes could create public relations problems with various groups, ranging from
You have to laugh. At least I do.
Well, this ought to get something going other than "war, war, war".
:D
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Unions??? Toad, I thought the Unions were the crooks???
LOL Anyway, just further proof we no longer need labor unions . ;) (as more and more people line up for their new careers in the service industry)
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Big business fat cats taking a tasty slice of a non-existant cake disgust me.
They never lead by example.
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No argument from me executive salaries and benefits are excessive especially when performance does not match the high compensation.
However if you wanna think that the extremly powerful and arrogant airline unions are helpful to the industry then so be it - they are just labor supply subcontractors that artifically raise costs to the major airlines and help them nicely along into bankruptcy.
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And these same hypocrites are about the ask the gobment for more money....
shreck em I say, let businiess take it's course...
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Any company with a labor union deserves it.
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Originally posted by Airhead
(as more and more people line up for their new careers in the service industry)
Wouldn't pilots and mechanics already be in the service industry? ( I honestly don't know lol).
-Sik
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brother in law who flies 737s for delta just got the axe. 200 pilots I believe just got furlowed(sp). All the while the executives get this crap.
My other brother in law is about to get the axe from American Airlines, flies the airbus outa JFK.
One is a retired gulf war marine veteran and is about done with the aviation game.
Other is former Navy and will probably go bankrupt because of this.....needless to say it pisses me off highly.
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It's a private company - they should be able to run themselves into the ground whichever way they want - like through paying exessive compensation to their employees - pilots, executives, etc.
As long as the government does not bail them out, it's fine with me. More efficient competitors woule get their planes and routes and terminals for pennies on the dollar, no value will be lost, nobody worse off except the owners (shareholders) and employees not taken by the competitors - that were exessive anyway, in that case.
miko
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Dnil, i think JetBlue is still expanding, maybe they get something there.
JetBlue is non union shop if i'm mistaken.
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My wife (took a few business classes) believes Jet Blue to be one of the best run airlines out there.
Southwest does alright to, I think.
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Yep...Bloody unions are to blame for the Airline industry's woes...:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Toad
From the Atlanta Journal Constitution, 3/26/03:
Hiya Hunnie ;)
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Dowding wins the prize.
Lead by example. They never, ever do.
Trying times for the industry; sacrifices must be made. Follow my example!
Ooops. Wait. Don't follow my example.
So.... how many of yas would be willing to stand up and cheerfully take the paycheck hit they ask you for after you read this?
There's the reason for the continual enmity.
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OH, yeah..
bzzzzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
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Originally posted by Toad
OH, yeah..
bzzzzzzzzzzzzzt......... doink!
I agree. No gobment(and I love that spelling)bailouts! Unless, of course, the share price goes to $5.00 then bail em out so the price can go back to $60.00!
I remember Chrysler in the '80's, I missed out, you?
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damn, I better cash my skymiles in before they go under! ;)
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Just the Facts on Big Six Management
BY JOE BRANCATELLI
March 27, 2003 -- Once in a while--not often, but occasionally--I get an E-mail from a business traveler who suggests that my columns about the mismanagement of the Big Six carriers would be more effective if I refrained from describing the big bosses as overpaid, incompetent, insensitive, self-aggrandizing, cowardly, stupid, corporate welfare junkies.
I don't agree. I believe in calling a spade a spade and a blowhard corporate martinet a blowhard corporate martinet. But I also believe in reader service. So, if some of you want "just the facts" about the state of Big Six management, I am happy to oblige.
I could focus on Wednesday's revelations from Reuters that Continental Airlines chief executive Gordon Bethune received "a pay package for 2002, excluding options, worth about $7.63 million, more than 82 percent above the $4.18 million he was awarded the previous year." But, frankly, Bethune is too easy a target and an increasing embarrassment even to his fellow airline executives.
Instead, here are facts--and just the facts--about the state of the management of Delta Air Lines. I'll refrain from characterization, but I do urge you to let me know the adjectives that you'd use to describe this kind of stewardship.
FACT: Delta Air Lines recorded a net loss of $1.3 billion in 2002 and a net loss of $1.2 billion in 2001.
FACT: Delta said Tuesday that its first-quarter 2003 results will be worse than the $397 million loss in last year's first quarter. There is no hope for profit in 2003 and "economic analysts indicate that recovery is unlikely before 2004, if then," chief executive Leo Mullin wrote in Delta's just released annual report .
FACT: In the annual report, Mullin said that Delta will have shed 16,000 jobs--or 21 percent of its pre-9/11 work force--by the middle of this year.
FACT: Delta's stock traded at $55.81 on July 24, 2000. On September 10, 2001, the day before the terrorist attacks, Delta shares had lost a third of their value and were selling at $37.25. On Wednesday, Delta closed at $9.95, meaning the company has lost 82 percent of its value during the last 32 months.
FACT: In a speech before a New York aviation group on Wednesday, Mullin claimed airlines "have undertaken [the] largest expenditure reduction program in history."
FACT: In its proxy statement filed on Tuesday with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Delta revealed that Mullin was paid a salary of $795,000 in 2002, 33.3 percent more than he received in 2001. His cash bonus in 2002 was $1.4 million compared to no bonus in 2001.
FACT: After analyzing his various payouts, CBSMarketwatch.com said Tuesday that Mullin's "compensation package more than doubled in 2002 to $4.8 million." After calculating the value of all his options and other perks, Forbes magazine concluded that Mullin's pay package was worth "some $13 million, more than twice what he received in 2001."
FACT: According to a story analyzing the proxy statement that appeared in Wednesday's Atlanta Journal-Constitution , Mullin and Delta's four other top executives received total cash bonuses of $4.8 million in 2002. Fifty-five "second-tier" managers were paid a total of $12.5 million more. "Delta had given no executive bonuses in 2001, but last year retooled its bonus formula to make them possible despite $1.3 billion in losses," the paper reported.
FACT: Delta's proxy statement said that the airline's president and chief operating officer, Fredrick W. Reid, was paid $45,000 more in salary ($700,000) in 2002 than in 2001. His 2002 cash bonus: $1.233 million. M. Michele Burns, Delta's chief financial officer received $30,000 more in salary ($560,000) last year than in 2001. Her 2002 bonus was $846,000. Vicki Escarra, Delta's chief marketing officer, received a $29,000 salary boost ($540,000) and a $761,400 bonus in 2002.
FACT: Based on its 2002 net loss of $1.3 billion and his 2002 bonus payment of $1.4 million, Mullin received $100,000 in bonuses for every $92,778,000 that Delta lost last year. Based on the $13 million estimate of his total 2002 financial compensation, Mullin earned $1 million for every $100 million that Delta lost in 2002. Reid received $100,000 in bonuses for every $105 million that Delta lost last year.
FACT: The proxy statement reported that Delta diverted $25.5 million in cash to guarantee the pensions of certain executives in the case of bankruptcy. The move is similar to the actions at US Airways, which paid its three top departing executives $35 million in lump-sum retirement benefits before it declared bankruptcy last year. Using the protection of the bankruptcy court, US Airways then renounced its pension obligations to its pilots.
FACT: Effective March 1, the Delta proxy said, Mullin and Reid were reducing their salaries by 10 percent "for an indefinite period." The other officers were accepting an 8 percent salary cut. "These reductions demonstrate the commitment of the officer team to share the burden of Delta's cost-reduction goals," the proxy said.
FACT: Mullin, who began the public drumbeat for a second airline bailout last September with a disastrous appearance before a Congressional committee, continues to act as the Big Six's front man on a request for upwards of $10 billion of additional taxpayer funds. "I remain fairly optimistic that we will get some aid through this process," the Atlanta Journal-Constitution
quoted him as saying yesterday.
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Nifty, I'd cash them suckers quick. If AA goes Chapter 11 this week, all bets are off.
I am spending this weekend carefully contemplating and calculating submitting my early retirement papers Monday. Might as well try to salvage some of that. My brother at US Air lost all but about 15% of his retirement....... so far.
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damn toad...
short of the government taking over commercial air transport, is there anything that can be done?
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Ummm........ kill all of the senior officers and get Herb Kelleher to take over?
:D
Nah; it's over. I've watched for 23 years as they tried to tell the cutomers what the customers wanted. The customers got tired of being told.
Then came 9/11.
People fly to get places fast and cheap. The "romance" of flying doesn't sell tickets like it did in the '50's but the majors apparently never could accept that.
So, Southwest and JetBlue post profits in the worst of times..... and the majors go bankrupt.
I've about made my decision. Ya got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run. I'm lacing up my track shoes this weekend, I'm pretty sure.
Probably end up changing oil in a Jiffy Lube cuz you can't retire this early and get much.
Know what? I started out with far less than I have now.Nothing but a college degree, really. And I got to here. :D
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jeezz , non of you know how big bussins works , if you are loseing money you have to you execs more to make up for the losses
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Toad, early retirement ain't as good as it is cracked up to be. Maybe we can start a bzness selling pencils or apples? What ya think?
Even flyn boxes isn't a sure thing now. My brother says DHL and Airborne are going to be going through merger pains. He is a little worried about his job!
Being a pilot with a major doesn't mean a thing these days:(
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:D
Shows the mettle of the present bunch.
Letter from retired Delta executives to Leo F. Mullin, CEO of Delta Airlines
January 22, 2003
Dear Leo:
We are retired officers of Delta Air Lines, representing diverse backgrounds, personalities and experiences. While most of us spent our entire careers with Delta, some came from other carriers. Many of us have had the opportunity of working with you and enthusiastically embraced you and your visions for our company. We have worked hard to make your transition successful and when we retired to help you build your own management team, you recognized our contributions and rewarded us fairly. Many did not have the opportunity to work with you, but all of us share a common objective. We have always been deeply committed to Delta, its people and Delta's continued success. It is for these reasons we feel compelled to write this letter.
Last spring a number of us were shocked when we learned from sources outside of Delta that a pre-payment of all accrued pension obligations to officers was proposed to the Board shortly after September 11, 2001. The payments, made in the spring of 2002, to the officers (or their trusts) of the present value of the Company's pension obligations were made because of concerns about approaching insolvency so that the Company's obligations to the current officers would not be at risk in the event that the Company should have to file for bankruptcy. The use of over one hundred million dollars of Delta's funds for this purpose, as well as the fact the action was taken in secrecy and only "disclosed" much later in an exhibit to an SEC filing (indicating an intent to keep the full information from shareholders and both active and retired employees), left us in disbelief.
As you know, prior to this pension pre-payment, all officers had been in a single special pension plan unique from other employees in that the majority of our pension payments were just paid from Delta's general funds, as required by the IRS, as opposed to being paid from the Delta Family Care retirement plan. For this reason, when this first came to our attention it appeared that the current officers had fully taken care of themselves, and that all of the retired non-officer employees' pensions would be protected because they were funded out of the Delta retirement plan. It appeared that the only group left whose retirement benefits would be severely exposed in a bankruptcy was approximately 40 retired officers, some of whom, in the event of bankruptcy, could see their pensions reduced by up to 85 percent. For this reason, we sought legal counsel.
Our legal counsel determined that the payments to present executives represented a preferential payment to a group of creditors with immature claims, at a time when the Company was deeply concerned about insolvency, and had other mature unsecured claims which were treated differently. The situation was made worse because the payments were made to insiders. We were advised that the business judgment rule did not abolish the fiduciary duty you have to creditors or else all preferential payments to insiders could be so justified.
As you also know, the above information resulted in our attorneys going so far as drafting a complaint and contacting Delta's attorneys to discuss the proposed lawsuit. Despite Delta's legal counsel's opinion that our case is without merit, we believe it to be a strong, compelling case and were prepared to go forward on behalf of all retired Delta officers as parties to the lawsuit. However, the following recent events and findings have caused us to reconsider legal action:
The sudden United Airlines bankruptcy filing and the resulting media coverage and speculation about the well-being of other carriers.
Your renewed and intense appeals on behalf of the industry to Congress for financial relief.
We learned from several sources, including a UBS Warburg report, that Delta's qualified pension plan is under funded by at least $3.5 billion dollars.
We also learned during the last few weeks of the significant impact a bankruptcy at Delta would have on all employees' pensions (except of course current officers) particularly those who received credit for age/service in early-out packages for the past ten years.
We believe this information to be motivation enough for you to do the right thing for Delta's former and present employees everywhere by rescinding the payments made to or on behalf of current officers. A lawsuit would not only involve a few dozen unsecured creditors but would also include all retired employees, making the suit a major media event. We believe this kind of publicity would be detrimental to the Company, its officers, its board, the shareholders and ultimately all of Delta's employees.
In light of business and industry developments over the past 14 months, the media's focus on corporate misconduct, the reduction of the employees' pension benefits, the necessity to reduce other benefits and staffing at Delta, we are surprised that you have not reconsidered your position related to paying in cash to, or on behalf of, the officers, the Company's accrued obligations to the current officers. In order to ensure that you fully understand the consequences associated with your actions and how the public will view this, we offer the following for consideration:
The idea of paying out the accrued pension liability was conceived in October of 2001 when some officers began to worry about bankruptcy as a result of September 11, 2001. The actual payment of money was delayed until February which had the effect, and perhaps the intent, of avoiding having to reveal it in the Proxy for the April 2002 annual meeting and delaying the financial disclosures until spring of 2003. Additionally, there is a one-year preference period for insiders that ends this coming February which coincidentally, is just before the proxy is released. The fact that this action was not announced and that you continue to withhold the fact of these payments from the employees (unless you consider an included exhibit to a IOQ as a communication) and the retirees, both of whom could be severely impacted, raises an ethical question in our judgment.
The fact that no other public company in the country has incurred the expense and used its cash to make a similar payment also raises disclosure issues.
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Continued
In order to prepay these obligations, you took approximately $150 million of the Company's funds for the executives even when you were aware that the Company and its employees were struggling for survival and that the rank and file employees' pension fund was billions of dollars underfunded. To make matters worse, The Atlanta Journal Constitution reported that Delta's share of government financial assistance, as a result of the events which occurred on September 11, 2001, was $150 million net. We doubt the taxpayers or government would be pleased to know their entire financial assistance of $150,000,000 was used to prepay benefits to Delta's already highly compensated officers.
As spokesman for the industry, you have been relentless in lobbying Congress for financial relief for all airlines, which is desperately needed. However, by spending hundreds of millions of dollars to provide financial security for the officers, in spite of the threat of insolvency, and to further build their wealth in a post-Enron environment while Delta and the entire industry are in financial crisis and begging for government assistance, is not something the public nor the government would look upon favorably. Indeed, as noted earlier, the action is unique. We believe this will be damaging to your personal reputation and could have a very negative impact not only on Delta, but on the industry as a whole.
During the past 14 months you have required Delta employees to make many sacrifices. They have accepted reductions in their benefit programs, job reassignments and furloughs. Asking them to make these sacrifices while you and the other officers quietly spent millions of dollars prepaying your own benefit plan is morally wrong and violates the trust of Delta employees, retirees, and stockholders.
As was mentioned earlier in this letter, we have learned from pension/ERISA experts, financial professionals, bankruptcy attorneys and government agencies that based on Delta's current pension liability and financial situation, in the event of a bankruptcy at Delta, many retiree pensions would be significantly reduced. We will not go into the details as your finance and human resource department should be quite familiar with this issue. It appears that all retired Officers/Directors' nonqualified pension benefits, which in some individual cases represent as much as 85 percent of their total pension, would go away and would be treated as unsecured debt. Additionally, the qualified pension would also be reduced to reflect the reality of the shortfall in the pension fund, with enhanced benefits (credit for age/service provided in early retirement packages) and benefits over PBGC maximum of $28,000 - $44,000 per year being eliminated first. Therefore, most all retired Officers and Directors regardless of their exposure in the unqualified plan would have their pensions reduced, as would all retired non-pilot employees, particularly those who have taken early retirement packages over the last ten years.
In order to summarize the issues here, you have been concerned enough about bankruptcy to take care of yourselves by paying all of your accrued benefits in cash now (and even causing the Company to "gross up" the prepayment by paying the income tax liability as an additional benefit), yet you have encouraged employees to take early retirement packages knowing full well that they would not receive the promised benefit if the Company goes bankrupt. Additionally, you have made no attempt to inform the thousands of employees who have already retired of the impact of insolvency on their pensions, particularly early retirees.
We assume that you will have to mention the dollar cost of these payments in the proxy for 2003. Based upon the previous limited disclosures, we assume it will be mentioned as little as possible. It will be difficult to characterize this publicly as a retention issue when you have already spent millions of dollars on bonuses for officers/directors, established a bonus program for those staying for a few years, and have issued two stock options within the year at deflated prices to be vested in one year. Additionally, many of the current Officers/Directors have less than six years of service but were given pension credit for as much as twenty years of service when they joined the Company. They are all highly paid, many receiving significant signing bonuses, restricted stock, large stock option grants, employment contracts and a multitude of other perks and expenses associated with their employment and positions. They are hardly destitute or in need of special, unusual pension payments not afforded to other employees. Just characterizing payments as made for "retention purposes" does not shield the payments from creditors' claims. If such were the case there would be no need for lengthy insider preference periods as well as the imposition of very high levels of fiduciary responsibility to creditors on officers when a company is in the vicinity of insolvency.
We are concerned that when the proxy comes out, you will try to characterize the payments made to the officers' individual trusts as being similar to the cash balance plan for current employees and done early as a precursor to their plan change. The fact that the cash balance plan results in LOWER pensions on average (how else would you reduce pension costs for the rank and file by $500,000,000?) while you spent millions of dollars to make payments to or for officers based on the FULL VALUE of their accrued benefits (including a gross up to provide money for the executives to pay taxes they would have otherwise had to pay themselves), shows that there is no comparison to the employee plan. Any attempt to try and make that comparison will further erode your credibility when the details of your payments are revealed.
Throughout Delta's history, officers have always had their incentives tied to making the Company successful. The payments you have made in satisfaction of the officers' accrued pension liabilities as well as the Bonus Plan for three years will shelter the officer if the company he/she serves fails. It would appear bankruptcy is no longer considered a last resort, but will now become just another strategic plan alternative to eliminate costs (including pension liability) and force pay concessions. We see little incentive now for you or the present executives to attempt to avoid bankruptcy after the insider preference period expires in February.
In summary, it seems unconscionable that thousands of employees who have worked and sacrificed to build the Company, which created a career opportunity for you and the other officers, have been left to fend for ourselves, while you and the current officers continue to use Company funds to build your wealth and future financial security at the expense of all other Delta stakeholders. At a recent analyst conference you were quoted as saying "the airlines are not seeking special treatment, but an end to special treatment". In short we are asking you to end the special treatment for yourselves.
We recognize that our mutual and ultimate goal must be to secure the long term viability of Delta Air Lines and to avoid bankruptcy. We therefore respectfully implore you and your management team to accelerate and move decisively to execute your recovery business plan and make those difficult, but absolutely necessary, decisions that will reverse the unacceptable and unsustainable, financial hemorrhaging.
Delta's competitive advantage has always been its people. The Delta family made up of thousands of retired and current employees is poised to stand shoulder to shoulder with you to do whatever is necessary to avoid bankruptcy and secure Delta's future. We call upon you to lead us with a commitment of SHARED sacrifice and risk.
For the reasons we have articulated in this letter, we are asking you to immediately rescind the pension change for current officers and return the money to the Company and share in the risks and sacrifices of the other employees and retirees. We believe that to do otherwise will cause harm for our Company and will hinder your ability to seek the trust and cooperation of the government, shareholders, retirees and employees in the future. In short, we urge you to do the right thing.
We request that you or Bob Harkey communicate your response to the issues expressed in the letter by February 5, 2003 to Dean Booth, the attorney who represents the undersigned partial list of retired officers/directors. Otherwise, we will be compelled to consider further action. Very truly yours,
Robert Adams
H.C. Alger
Bill Berry
Marty Braham
Pete Caldwell
Jim Callison
Robert Coggin
Richard Colby
Bob Cowart
Russ Crawford
John Davis
W.E. Doll
Doug Dunn
David Greenberg
Julius Gwin
Whit Hawkins
Russ Heil
John Hoover
John Hume
Dave Huss
Marvin Johnson
Julian May
Rex McClelland
Robert Oppenlander
Foy Phillips
Jenny Poole
Tom Roeck
Bobby Suggs
C.A. Thompson
Maurice Worth
cc: Ed Budd, Chairman Personnel and Compensation Committee
Board of Directors
Source (http://www.apapdp.org/)
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Tell me how bad the Unions are again?
These guys took the $150 million of US taxpayer assistance (100% of it.. ALL of it) to Delta and put it in their pockets.
Which comes first? Bad management or Unions?
:D
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they sound so... so...
french.
;)
can we shoot 'em?
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OK by me. I'm shootin' 'em the middle finger ASAP. :D
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The question is who's worse Toad. Not who's better.
I'm going to step on a soapbox here...
You have made more money in your career with United than most of us will ever see. If you took the average salary around here and subtracted that from what you've made... you'd have a hell of a retirement left over. The rest of that money is what is called "luxury".
Unions were established to ensure that people got the necesseties... not the luxuries. Somewhere... that got out of hand. Those running the unions would have done the same as those running your company. Neither is a saint.
I feel bad that you have been put in an umbiguous situation. Uncertainty is never a good thing and I don't wish it upon anyone. But please realize that most of the people you are posting these messages in front of have lived with that kind of uncertanty most of their lives. Count your blessings.
United is being mismanaged. That is clear. Whether or not the unions played a part in their downfall is somewhat murky.
MiniD
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oh, horsepucky.
company entered into a contract. now it's handing it's executives golden parachutes, and selling the emplyees down the river.
with our tax money.
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Mini, do a search for this phrase:
The only thing worse than a Union is no Union.
Put that in, you'll find a bunch of my posts.
BTW, I work for DAL, not UAL.
There's LOTS of careers that pay more than mine. Far more. No tears here, this is the one I chose and it was good to me. But I don't accept the idea that I was overcompensated.
Those of you that haven't done the job have no idea what it took and what it can cost in personal terms.
I started on this path before I graduated high school. Planned it out, did what had to be done to qualify. When I sent out my applications to 34 airlines, one replied they had got it. A year later, they wrote and said come to an interview and I got hired. That was the only response I got and it paid off. I competed with 33,000 other applications on file at that time and was one of 360 that was hired during that period.
I KNOW that I've successfully managed situations that could easily have resulted in loss of life measured in the hundreds had they been mishandled in the least.
In short, I'm not a bit embarassed about what I earned. Just like a lot of other professionals in a lot of other professions.
It's over now and that's fine. I'm not going to miss it a bit, although it means I'll be finding new work. THIS time, I'll be the boss, whatever it turns out to be.. even if it's a mowing lawns by myself.
And I'll tell you what... if I'm ever presiding over a company with employees, I sure as hell won't be as dishonest as the people detailed above.
The reason there are Unions is because there are people like that running the companies. They'd steal their own mother's last crust of bread and feed it to their poodle.
And that's the point of this whole thread.
;)
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Just a bit of an FYI...
I was given the ax in October of 2001 by Delta Air Lines. 7 Years of "above and beyond" service out the door, while many rank and file employees with wonderous union mentality continued to do work like monkeys and retained their jobs because of seniority. I was called back once, only to be laid off 6 weeks later again, around the same time the friggin bonuses for execs were being handed out. Now the beauty of all this was my last paycheck was garnished over 75% because of an overpayment Delta believed it made in 1998. I never saw the money in 98, and had it stolen from me in 2001. I assume it went into the fat cats pockets, but nonetheless, I never saw it, and was forced to work a late night job doing underwater repairs at Disney to make ends meet, as working as a restorer for a certain museum in Kissimmee was poorly compensated.
What gets me the most out of all this, though, was Delta's nice little "Good Bye" letter. It basically said that they regretfully had to let me go, but the acts on September 11th forced their hands. Amazing, poor management sets the airline up for financial woes, and they take advantage of emotional appeal at that time. Disgusting, absolutely disgusting.
The current management team was praised when they came on board, almost anything was better after the jerk Ron Allen and 7.2 or whatever the hell the cost per mile reductions were called that only included customer benefits, decent equipment, and line employees salarys... defintitely not the fat cats. Well, guess what Toad, we got it in the bellybutton worse this time, and the beauty of it is, this time, Mullin, did it with our blessings. THat man has raped Delta so bad, and it's customers and employees, there is no hope for its continuance as a major.
Our best hope of recouping our personal losses is just getting the timing right on selling short a few 100000 shares of Delta stock so that when they file bankruptcy we can have something to walk away with.
I will not fly Delta anymore. I absolutely refuse and ensure that I go out of the way not too. Wishing you luck Toad, as a fellow employee, and friend. See ya on the other side.
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Toad,
I did not mean to imply that you were overpaid nor underpaid. I'm not going to argue about the merits of your income. I'm saying that this thread is comparable to announcing how difficult life is in America compared to Iraq.
I wish you the best of luck however this works out. And I ask you to take a look around you and, once again, count your blessings.
MiniD
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The surefire way to fix an airline is to let the employees and the unions own the business and have a controlling interest in it! This way as majority owners, the emplyees could do anything and hire anyone for management they wanted and set their salaries as low as neccesarry. This trype of airline would never go bankrupt!!!!
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toad jetblue dont count they dont have to pay any bills on aircraft for what like 3 years? southwest is going to get worse as the founder isnt running the show anymore. when the beancounters start running the business it always goes bad, selling aircraft you own to leasing company and leasing aircraft back makes good returns when business is good when business is bad it kills you. one of big things saving northwest right now is they own so many of their aircraft outright as opposed to leasing them. also declaring bankrupt is easy out for management. go bankrupt and reneg with union after you go bankrupt. is it american or united that has like 2 billion in cash and they warning about declaring bankrupt? what a joke. greedy management is 1000 times more responsible for killing airlines than employee union and usually i dont care for union. look at northwest with chechhi and friends, they come in to airline with tons of cash and no debt by buying several billion dollar company with 400 million in cash and lots of loans. take cash of company to pay off loans, run up new debt to line their pockets. im sure you know the story. best of luck to you dude.
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oh by jetblue not counting i meant when comparing business cost. they dont have to pay any bills on aircraft for like 3 years. also they hiring new pilot which means lower salary totals. "its easier to start an airline than it is to keep one going" is the quote.
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My friend is training to be a pilot for Atlantic Airlines (or is Air Atlantic - I never can get it right). He sent off to dozens of airlines for a place, and only succeeded with this one. He already had a private pilot's license, a first in Biochemistry etc. A clever, well motivated guy who was captain of the water polo team for the uni.
He spends 90% of his time washing planes and cleaning toilets and mowing lawns and works 7 days a week with 2 weeks holiday a year. Although, 2 years into it he get more and more flying time, I think if your heart wasn't in it you could never stay the course.
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Well Deja, perhaps you've missed the anti-union/pro-management threads. If you did, Grun's post in this one will give you some of the flavor.
So this thread isn't about my situation at all, although twice you've tried to frame it that way.
It's about how great "management" really is. These guys are Grun's hero's and and the hero's of a few others.
Some people see Unions as the ruination of American business. I think the greed of the Airline Management teams... with a very few notable exceptions (like maybe ONE) clearly shows where the root cause of the problem lies. With people like these stealing from the taxpayers and the employees (see Bodhi's post), it's no surprise you get Unions that will fight for every nickel they can get. Pretty clear which comes first, Unions or Bad Management.
How do you feel about the exact amount DAL got from the American taxpayer in "relief for 9/11 to help DAL survive" going right into an "iron lock box" to guarantee the top executives compensation? Do you think that's what Congress meant to happen with the $150 million they gave them?
I've had a good career; I'm not crying.
But these guys are simply thieves on the order of the Enron bunch. And they are typical of almost every major airlines management team.
And as I said, that's the point of this thread. I've been told here many, many times that LABOR (union) is the problem.
Really? How can anyone read this stuff and not see where the true problem lies?
But they can't.... look at Grun. :D
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Grun, go ahead and use UAL as your example of unions owning and airline and screwing it up.
First though, you better read up on UAL history with respect to management and profit/loss. The employee buyout happened because Steve Wolf ran the airline into the ground while taking multi, multi millions for himself. The employees made the buyout happend to get rid of Wolf and get a new management team.
"Wolf" you say? Yeah, Wolf... with his henchman Gangwhal. The same two guys that just ran US Air into bankruptcy while giving themselves $36 million to split right about the time they declared.
You want the roots of the UAL bankruptcy? Look at Wolf and Gangwhal.... they are responsible for that one AND US Air. And while you're researching, make notes of how much they paid themselves to leave UAL.
Wolf's well into triple-digit millions for ruining two airlines.
Same story will shine out of AA if they file this week. You'll find the top execs have made sure their double digit millions are firmly secured just like DAL's have done.
There's your fabulous managers.
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Toad the buyout happend years ago, as owners the unions and emplyees had the responsibility to pick and control management and they airline still went bankrupt. Some millions extra to to excecutives is bad, no doubt, but I think you are being foolish if you are proposing that that was the main cause of the airline bankruptcies.
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Like I said, do some research on UAL prior to the buyout. Wolf's "leadership" was kiling 'em and the buyout costs put them father in the hole. And the whole point of the buyout was to get rid of the guy that was killing them... Wolf.
They were recovering under the buyout leadership but then there was this little thing called "9/11". It sort of hammered all the airlines.
Still, Thank COD the government was around to pass out millions to the airlines after 9/11 because otherwise, the Senior Execs pensions might be in jeopardy!!!!! This way, it's only the rank and file everyday American worker that will lose his pension. Whew! That was a close one, eh?
$150 of US taxpayer money to Delta, Grun. $150 million goes directly to the execs as bonuses and retirment funding. Thanks for contributing to Mullin's retirement, Grun. He desperately needed your contribution. ;)
Like I said, which comes first, Bad Management or Unions?
.... and before you start, I'm on record several times as saying
"the only thing WORSE than a Union (because they are pretty bad)
is NO Union." (because Managment is even a tad bit worse than Union leaders.)
You have to have the Unions to provide some sort of balance against thieves like these.
Think Enron was the end of it? Think again. And the evidence is posted in this thread and there'll be more when you find out what the AA execs gave themselves for their new bankruptcy.
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The company I work for is non union. Its well ran and the employees are decently compensated. It can work without either being corrupt.
There are unions that have ran companies into the ground or even prevented them from starting up. There are Execs that have done the same.
Unions were developed when people working in the steel mills worked 12 hours 364 days a year making barely enough to survive. I find it incredibly rediculous when someone tries to tout their need in a skills related proffession.
And Toad.. you have presented this on a personal level. You've also presented it from a purely defensive posture. Take a step back and ask yourself another questions: How many of the people here are in a union?
Make sure you are defining a union as something that fights for the rights of the working man... and not something the that ensures a three car garage for the educated man.
MiniD
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Nah, I'll just leave it as I presented it.
They're management crooks. It's documented.
Even McCain is hammering them in the Senate.
People like that are the reason workers form Unions. Not much more to be said.
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I agree that they're crooks.
Where we differ is on the need for unions. You have a union and they still pulled it off.
Basically, the unions today serve as a set of organized crooks to counter the corperate crooks. I wonder how much money the unions have managed to suck from the proffit margin. That's a little more cloudy and not something I'm sure you'd care to cover.
I'd like to see it be a little less on the crook end for both sides.
MiniD
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I wonder how much money health and safety improvements to the working environment have sucked from the profit margin?
"Work, you fiends, work! You! Stop bleeding! You're damaging the product! Right, you're fired! Get me the HR department and find someone other poor schmuck to be taken advantage of."
Unions often have their problems. Management often profits hugely from theirs, and it's John Smith who pays in the end.
Balance is the key. And trust through good leadership.