Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs on October 19, 2000, 10:08:00 AM
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Well... been flying the new and improved AH FM for a couple of weeks now. Had some horrendous stick spike problems at first that made it unplayable but they are sorted out now. Addmittedly I don't have a lot of experiance with the new model so bear with me or flame me or just inform me. I responmd equally to all of the above.
FM... HUGE improvement. Action is more intense than previously and I see a lot of ACM in the arena (a good thing IMO). I find I like the FM more than WB now especially the low speed handling like ded stick landings or, any landings for that matter. Much, much more fun than the last version for me.
AC... They seem to have the FM's sorted out pretty well with planes acting like you would expect them to against each other. Ironicaly, after reading some of the preliminary comparitive data, I was turned off by data that showed the AH Hog was outturned by the likes of the P47, 190,and P51. I have been flying the Hog allmost exclusively and find that in fact, I can sqeek by all those planes in allmost any turn situation. Maybe the Hog should turn a little better but I am having fun which brings me to..
The "uberhog".. Wha..? The plane is easily outturned by allmost every plane except the 47,190,51... It has the worst climb of any plane in the game by a pretty fair margin. It is fast (especially at AH combat alts) and it rolls as well as any and better than most. It is a big, fast, plane so it will dive and zoom as well or better than anything in the game. If you try to climb or turn co e with a spit or any other plane in it you will lose position. Those who claim magical FM properties for it are either.... ignorant (don't know what is happening in the fite). have a bad connection... Have run into some kind of hacker.... Are a liar (no explanation needed). or inexperianced (in the Hog). Certainly tho... film will show which of these is the case. It does have great guns in the C version....
Guns.... leathiality/damage model in AH is a breath of fresh air for someone coming from a sim with 60% leathiality and intermittent hardness bugs and "adjustments" but.... The cannon vs mg thing is still there a little. Sometimes, 6 fifties work perfectly and other times... not as well. I believe that when all is well with my connect, a good solid fifty caliber snapshot deals either death or a crippling blow. My sometimes marginal connects sometimes give marginal results. Cannon work good because the leathiality "margin for error" is so good. Even so... I have 18-20 assists using the most powerful cannon group in the game. Cannon are not guarenteed 1 ping killers. I believe that perhaps it would be good to up the mg's 10% or so in leathiality to make up for the vagaries of the internet. For now... I will cut down on my frustratin level by flying cannon. Hope the Hellcat has the 2 20mm + 4 fifty option.
perk planes... heard about this one and am very wary of it.... Seems to me that one of the things that AH has going for it is a balanced plane set. Perk planes seems to be a recipe for animosity and frustration. After a lot of hard work, WB has developed animosity, frustration and lopsided planesets to a fine art but perk planes may do em one better. If adding new planes to the set is the goal then I would suggest that they have their own "day" and that planes that are very much uber wait until a few "counter" planes are developed and then they can fly against each other. By the same token, new early planes need to have something to fite before they are introduced... they need to be introduced "en bloc", groups of three or more and there own day/generation. A lot of people hate "262" day in WB. Imagine that 24/7 365 days of the year.
All in all.... I am having fun and things seem pretty balanced with enough choice and good FM's and variety to suit me. I would have been a little more critical but I don't know enough yet and besides.... I have to live up to my WB reputation as "HT asskisser".
lazs
[This message has been edited by lazs (edited 10-19-2000).]
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Concur with entire post except the Perk Plane part:
Perk planes is something everyone gets.
Perk planes will NOT be used in every sortie since the work it took to get one, one will not be foolish enough to use it and lose it right away.
Perk Plane users will be hunted exclusively, more the reason to use your new bird wisely for chosen missions.
Perk planes is a form of real war, where, after a certain amount of time went by, your old A/C was updated to the latest and greatest, regardless if the enemies had or had not.
<S> Lazs
More on Perk planes from HT
1. You will only loose perk points when you die in a perk plane. Not sure how ditches and bails will effect
the point's possibly a percentage of the planes value.
2. k/d will not be used to award point's it will be done more along the lines of fly more and kill more or
damage more get more points. Each missions points will be modified by your missions outcome. And
each kills points will be modified by plane type modifiers. I.E. worse plane kills better plane = more points
than Visa versa.
I'm viewing the time frame of getting enof points to get a perk plane in the realm of 3 to 4 weeks in playing
time.
Perk points are life time points, and will not reset with tours.
Now put you self in the position that you just spent 4 weeks getting enof points to go fly a 262. And if you
die in that 262 it will take another 4 weeks to get enof points to fly it again. Do you think you will use it in a
furball? or would you be more likely to take it out on occasion to show off your trophy?
Now put yourself in the roll of being attacked by a 262.
1st killing it will be worth more points than the standard planes.
2nd I can see people getting together and hunting that 262 just to spoil it's day.
We are also considering awarding points for to the hole country for war wins. This would require you be in
that country for the last 24 hours.
We are also considering using the 1st tear, i.e. least inexpsensive planes , as a meens of side balancing,
Enabling them for free to a side if they are to low on player counts.
HiTech
Lets not condemn a new concept, if we historically had in the past, we might all still be flying Dos AW?!?
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 10-19-2000).]
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Sheesh...another HTC apologist. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Welcome back.
popeye
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By the same token, new early planes need to have something to fite before they are introduced... they need to be introduced "en bloc", groups of three or more and there own day/generation.
Yep, couldn't agree more. Just wish it was going to happen sooner, rather than much later.
It does have great guns in the C version....
Understatement of the century! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The only place where I beg to differ with you is in your opinion of the lethality of the .50's. I think they are very effective. Since I don't take many snapshots, I don't having any problem with their lethality.
After a lot of hard work, WB has developed animosity, frustration and lopsided planesets to a fine art...
No comment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The F4U-C handles superior to the 190A8 in all respects except medium speed roll rate.
It easily outturns the A5, and above 12-15k climb rate is comparable.
It has a much better gun package, better low speed handling, better hi speed handling but worse acceleration. It can also quite easily outdive the A8 and A5.
Worst climb rate is by far the 190A8.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 10-19-2000).]
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" Maybe the Hog should turn a little better but I am having fun which brings me to.."
I got the rope. Anyone got a tree?
-Westy
(j/k...well, almost not.)
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Man, I am really glad to see The Blue Knights back!
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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Originally posted by StSanta:
The F4U-C handles superior to the 190A8 in all respects except medium speed roll rate.
It easily outturns the A5, and above 12-15k climb rate is comparable.
It has a much better gun package, better low speed handling, better hi speed handling but worse acceleration. It can also quite easily outdive the A8 and A5.
Worst climb rate is by far the 190A8.
your right. And do you think it should be different? the 190 was not a good turner, nor a good climber.
Lazs, I agree completely, the F4U-c is not the "superman" of the AH planeset that some will say it is.
ammo
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well rip... On the Perk thing...no sence cryin till I'm hurt but... something you said, I believe, makes my point.
"Perk planes is a form of real war, where, after a certain amount of time went by, your old A/C was updated to the
latest and greatest, regardless if the enemies had or had not."
This is pretty much the current problem with WB.... "historical" types want to recreate the "ebb and flow" of ac superiority... They have created nothing but animosity. You can have Historical or you can have fair gameplay but I don't believe you can have both.... I read the book.
I don't think that I will get much satisfaction from killing with a perk plane and i certainly won't enjoy being killed by one. I realize that new ideas have to be tried but I also know that every new idea is not a good idea.
I really do think that what is happening in WB right now is the perfect example of how any type of lopsided feature affects the game... Those who fail to learn by from history...
Even in AH which, IMO has a pretty evenly matched planeset, there is a LOT of animosity over even percieved miniscule "advantages" one plane has over the other. I don't believe the character of the players will change with the game change.
But... I will give it a chance. Not a lot of choice at this point. I also cannot help but believe that the powers that be are not looking at the current WB fiasco and having at least second thoughts about the whole "perk plane" idea.
and besides.... your mom dress's you funny rip.
lazs
Oh, rip.. u say that it will we won't see perk planes 24/7? with thousands of players wouldn't at least a few of em have perk planes at any one time? I don't want to fly em and I don't want to fite em.
Where would they work on your "real war" premis? Why in scenarios and an "HA" of course. nothing real war about the MA except the FM's.... as it should be.
[This message has been edited by lazs (edited 10-19-2000).]
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I'll comment on the perk plane issue.
I like the idea of some mechanism to let us fly the later-war uber-rides. However if (for example) there are always just a few 262s up, it MIGHT make the arena a less fun place for me. Having to keep an eye out for these 500Mph+ monsters every day could become a bit wearing. I guess we'll see when the perk-planes start showing up.
Hooligan
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Laz, I guess the point I'm making in MA furballs is, whats different from a "perk plane' set and what it is now? If you're in a P51D, and I'm in a A6M zero, what diff would it be if that was , say a TA152 or a P51D? No difference than it is already. The 51 is dominent if flown correctly, and can engage or disengage at will.
And my mama dresses YOU funny! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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rip... read hooli's post. some perk planes will be bad news for everyone else. They will be an anoyance.
As for how i dress and ur mom... you have me mixed up with funked who is the only person i know that has his clothes (and everything else)bought by older women.
I will say that you do look much better in manly blue than in girly gray tho... makes you look taller and less petulant IMO.
lazs
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Lazs you are just another HTC ass-kisser! You are buttering them up to get the F4U-5!
Seriously that was a pretty fair assessment. I concur that the only thing overmodeled about the F4U... is the whining. I share your concerns about perk planes but I think HTC is acutely aware of the problems that can result and will ensure that the perk system does not cause hostility and envy (remember the Jet Day whines, ugh).
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-19-2000).]
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Well..funked and rip.. Seems like a really odd thing to do but.. I will give it a chance before i comment again.
lazs
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Laz
If ya like the F4U-1C your gona love the Typhoon, its a different style of flying but after 1 tour in her youll find she can do everthing well.
She is a large target though, but this to can be used to your advantage. Many people spot the Tiffy and think, easy target.. I love when they think that, make for a great fight.
Dog out...
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How's flying a C-Hog vs Zeke different than flying 262 vs Hog ?
Aside if they ever met historically, but then C-Hog would not be allowed near ETO planes either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
You C-Hog dweebs are doing to poor Zekes the exact same thing what 262 would do to you. And you whine of jets in advance ?!?
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 10-20-2000).]
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ammo:
nope, think it is as it should be.. Maybe the C shouldn't turn as well as it does, but that's another matter.
I am just pointing out an error in lazs's post.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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From Funked:
I concur that the only thing overmodeled about the F4U ... is the whining
I concur that whining about C-Hog whining is clearly overmodeled, eheh.
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hristo... the zeke is the one that is odd man out... it does not belong in a mid/late war planeset it was indeed outdated by that time. In the case of the 262... Every plane becomes a zeke to it just some worse than others...
If parity (fun, fair fites) is the goal then... the zeke doesn't belong in a late war planeset any more than a 262 does... We no doubt need a "generations" planeset with say, early, mid and late war generations rather than the inherent unbalancing effect that introducing any new early war planes or conversly, introducing perk planes will have. How will you "perk" early war planes? You can't... you either can't have em or you have em and no one flys em or... you give em a "generation" with some parity.
I would love to fly some P40's Spit1's F4F-3' Ki43's 109e's Zekes and such through the canyons in their own generation wouldn't tou all? they would all be wasted tho if they were introduced right now in the current planeset. Same goes for very late war planes like the -4 hog or Dora or Spit 14 or TA152 or bearcat or tigercat or whatever...
3 generations would do it on alternating days. Any new plane would fit into one o4r the other of those generations i would think. Why on earth would you even need "perk" planes What kind of a person would even want such a thing?
lazs
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What room does someone advocating the introduction of the dweebiest plane(Me-262) have in calling someone flying a propellor driven plane, with obvious weaknesses that can be killed by just about any plane if flown right, a dweeb(F4U pilots)?
I'm just curious as to where you get off saying that Hristo? I don't fly an F4U, I fly a lot of other planes. 190A5, La5.. are just two of which I can whip a Hawg mercilessly in. In the 262s case, I can see it now. Oh, He's at 6.0K... 1 second later 5.0K(and I'm flying away from him..) next second, 4.0K. etc. Then he's 1.0K.. closing fast. 500yds.. He misses!!! Welp, there he goes running off into the sunset.
Ah yes, definitely not a dweeb plane that 262. hehehehe
-SW
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you seem to be forgeting a couple of things people...
the me262 was in the war and i and others would like to fly it.we all pay the same so every opinion is equal right?
fuel consumption is extremely high on me262 so this means you will have to take off/land nearer the fight right? and in RL they were very open to attack as they landed/took off and as you know it is easy to go deep into enemy territory on the hunt in say a p51 so hunting them once everyone says 'me262 10,9,6' will be easy!, we just go cap the bases he can land at.
why not limit it to 1 or 2 flights of me262 every 24 hours? anything! but dont discount my and others desire to fly it! then while you're at it you can do same for f4uc (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) which was also produced in small numbers so there is a legitimate reason for me to not want it in arena 24/7.It all boils down to personal taste and i like LW you like Yank/Brit/jap. (delete as appropriate (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ).
give us the planes first then we can debate its availability.
I would be very dissapointed if we get more and more late war allied planes and leave the luftwaffe with older models as i fly mainly luftwaffe and if i see other online sims with the planes i want to fly i'll go elswhere and i have no desire to do so.
just my personal opinion but hell it should count the same as ANYONE elses right?
hazed 3./JG2
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Jets are great, just don't forget the Meteor and the P-80. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Did somebody say...McDonalds? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Well I loved the RPS in WBs.
Thought it was just a hair beyond brilliant!
With RPS we had a dynamic tool to portray the actual developement of air power in the most fascinating time in the history of flight. In this way we had planes come online at their actual times of deployment.
Pyro still has my admiration for this.
But, As much as Id like to see it here eventually, I suspect we wont get it (hence the perk concept).
We shall see!
Yeager
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The more things change.......
<yawn>
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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WTG Cabby, 83 posts filled with spite and venom and you still have yet to contribute to this UBB with one rational response. Can't wait for your 100th post you might even pass MG's standard for irrational behaviour some day...keep it up and you may just get there.
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Actually, SW, I think that 262 won't be as uber to Hog as the Hog is to the Zeke.
262 has MK 108s, not the easiest cannons to brin on target. The tactic you described of 262 is not the dweeb way, it is the proper use of the plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
The C-Hog dweebs are the ones who say they fly the Hog for its historical record, and yet they miss the point that the plane had .50 cals historically.
I guess you would alo call Galland a dweeb, huh ? He flew 262, you know. That plane was produced some seven times more than C-Hog. It should be here, no matter how pissed prop dweebs would be.
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Originally posted by Hristo:
The C-Hog dweebs are the ones who say they fly the Hog for its historical record, and yet they miss the point that the plane had .50 cals historically.
That's a nice broad generalization with no basis in fact...you do well with those. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) And the F4U-1C had 50 cals?
I'm not a Chog dweeb, I'm a Niki dweeb, but I really look forward to the possibility of having the 262 in AH. I'd even use my perk points to fly it even though I hate BnZ, since it's a damn impressive bird to me. Of course, I don't anticipate one ever shooting me down in a fighter either...that is, if my eyes are open when one enters my airspace.
SOB
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SOB, you know what I wanted to say. Don't pretend not. The Hog with historical record was D model. C Hog ? Rare model imported to AH to satisfy the cannon envy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Majority of C-Hog dweebs didn't even know it existed until they saw it in AH. All they heard of was D model and its historical record in the Pacific. But it is a nice handy crutch and they took it.
SOB, try a team of 262s. Why do you think only lonewolfs would fly it ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 10-23-2000).]
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hristo... you are missing the point entirely... EVERY single plane we have now is a 262 compared to the zeke... The F4U is at the lower end of that pack especially in acceleration and climb. Your hate for the Hog is obvious and irrational. It is obvious that you have no idea of how the plane performs.
The only way that the zeke can be useful for more than a couple of instances is if it has it's own "generation" (early war) of planes to fly against. The 262 or any of the "perk" planes that we are voting on are in the same boat except that they need to be in a late war generation. Perk, is obviously a stop gap measure to get a few more planes in the set.
As to cannon hogs.... I fly em. Like I said, the vagaries of the internet and my connect make all MG only equipped planes sporadically leathal. I still get about 15-20% assists with a cannon hog... With the 6 fifty planes I get very good results sometimes and then others.... well they seem worthless and that is very frustrating. I do not want to be frustrated. As I have said, it may be a good idea to up the power of the MG's by 10% or so. I believe that is why we see the fifties scorned in AH when in reality they were considered "heavy armement". In AH or any sim, sometimes they are and sometimes they are not.
In any case, it seems that the fact that people in AH shun the MG planes when in RL (tm) they were considered excellent weapons packages is proof that something should be done.
lazs
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Lazs, so what if you don't get excellent results with the Dhog .50's all the time? I know you are a die hard Corsair lover, and I think that's great. I don't mean to sound like my friend Stiglr here, but why do you "have to win" all the time?
I love the Spitfire, and fly it more than any other plane. But, the Spit IX isn't as competative in this planeset as it was in Warbirds. But I fly it anyway, because I admire the plane, and I don't mind getting killed in it.
If they introduced a four-cannon Spit into AH, I'd still fly the IX, because to me, that is the "real" Spitfire(or at least the most well-known in the later war years).
I'd think that most of you hog drivers from Warbirds would be plenty happy with the Dhog, given the Hog's crappy performance in Warbirds.
Not a flame, Lazs, just a serious question. Why do the hog lovers in AH always fly the Chog and not the more representative Dhog?
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the day the hogc got here took 50 % of the fun out of the game . same thing happened again with the ostwind. a 5 year old with enough e can kill a good pilot in a hog 50% of the time .a 5 year old can hold down the trigger for 7 min and kill whole base . htc is going for the least common denominator. same thing that tv sitcoms do . quake had a bfg9000 no so do we ,both ground and air unit . it is that simple .
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banana... we are not getting our points across. If you read my post you will see that It is not the historic vagaries of the fifties that I am frustrated about. it is the vagaries of my connect/the internet.
I believe that there is, for my connect anyway, something wrong with the performance of the fifties in ah a lot of the time. This causes frustration. This will happen for periods of time ranging from an hour to all night and then get better. At their best, the fifties are a nice, perfectly deadly guns package. at worst, frustrating.
The same effects happen to the cannon but there is such a margin for error that it is much less noticable and hence, much less frustrating.
Historic? LOL, I know that against fighters, historically I would be better off with 6 fifties... Since that is not the result I get in AH then Historic has no meaning. I am simply picking the most effective and least variable gunset. I would of course welcome the larger ammo load and more rounds per sec of the 6 fifties if they worked "historically" for me.
Also...To use history in context with the planeset and arena setting that we have.... not to mention the missions and formations that we fly.... is ludicrous IMO.
Oh... "gotta win all the time".... No, but I don't like to lose a kill to the internet. Do you see the difference?
Also... I have flown several other planes so far and have found that so far all of them are easier to fly than either Hog. I also find that any Hog is the easiest plane for me to kill so far.
lazs
[This message has been edited by lazs (edited 10-23-2000).]
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I see where you're coming from now. I must've filtered out the stuff in your post talking about your connection. Hehe, my wife says I do the same thing to her, too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)