Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Urchin on March 29, 2003, 11:41:04 AM
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I've heard that there was weight added to this airplane a looong time ago. I've never been what you would call a huge fan of the plane, but someone said they had added about 800 pounds to the F4U-1C.
I looked in my Americas Hundred Thousand book, and there is unfortunately no weight breakdown for the F4U-1C in there- but they do give a weight breakdown for the -1D. Since it also has lists for the weight of the Hispano 20mm cannon and the weight of the ammo, I figured I'd do a quick comparison of the gun weights.
For the F4U-1D- 6 .50s and ammo comes out to 1,123 pounds. (I just used what AHT had listed for the weight)
For the F4U-1C- 4 20mm and 924 rounds of ammo comes out to 1,015 pounds.
If the only difference between the -1D and -1C is the gun installation, shouldn't the C-Hog actually be lighter?
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According to my source (American Warplanes of WWII; Donald)
the F4U-1C was an F4U-1A with cannon armament instead of machine guns. The F4U-1D was the fighter-bomber version with provisions added for bombs, rockets, and drop tanks.
So I think the weight comparison should be with the -1A, not the 1D...
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I thought the weight difference was actually in the region of 300lbs...
I have readme's dating back to 1.08 and took a look and all I could find was :
Aces High Version 1.08 Changes
Edited flight performance characteristics on the N1K2, F4U-1D, F4U-1C, and P-47D-11.
SKurj
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Urchin,
Here are the charts Pyro used to change the weight of the F4U-1C and F4U-1D. They both gained weight from these charts.
F4U-1C/D weights and performance (http://www.geocities.com/slakergmb/id71.htm)
The only probelm I have now is that I have found another reference since these charts that points to the F4U-1C being much lighter, around 11,850LBS. It is the 1944 Joint Fighter Report which shows the weights of all A/C tested with a full combat load.
Funny thing with all of the F4U data I have posted (Charts, Graphs, NAVAIR and Vought) the only change I have ever been involved with is the weight gain of the F4U-1D/C (and corresponding change in climb rate for the positive).
However if you read this chart carefully you will notice that the F4U-1D has a max speed on the deck of 366MPH and at 20K of 417MPH without Pylons for bombs and DT's. Unfortunately the F4U-1D and C have the distinction of being the only A/C in AH with drag from external stores Pylons with or without carrying ordinance..
I also have F4U-4 charts (from 1944) that far exceed our F4U-4 in limb performance with 100 octane fuel.
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"Unfortunately the F4U-1D and C have the distinction of being the only A/C in AH with drag from external stores Pylons with or without carrying ordinance.. "
The P-51's appear to have the drag from the bomb/DT pylons modeled, even though those pylons aren't visually included in the 3D model. Without those pylons, both 51's would gain around 5-10 MPH from what they do in AH. The P-38L definately has the drag from its "christmas tree" rocket racks included.
The rocket stubs weren't usually removed from the F4U-1D, whether the plane was carrying rockets or not. One must wonder why Vought chose to use such a draggy rocket rail design, when superior 0-length rocket rails were available and being included in other US designs of the time.
J_A_B
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JAB,
I have never seen anything that says a P-51D was any faster than it is here in AH except when adding higher octane fuel.
The P-38 only looses performance from it's rocket rails when you select rockets. It does not have the drag penaly unless you actually select rockets. The F4U-1D has the drag regardless of weather you select nothing or a full load out.
However to say that the F4U-1D used rails and pylons on every mission would be a mistake. If many of these birds were used for CAP missions when hunting Kamikazee's. Which BTW was the main reason for F4U's being put on carriers. Why would the pilots let the ground crew leave them on when it cost the F4U over 10MPH in speed? It would be like hunting for V-1's over Europe with drop tanks on.
BTW. The F4U did use Zero length rails depending on the rocket type. It also carried 11.75 inch rockets, and bombs on it's wings which required more substantial mounts at times.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"Unfortunately the F4U-1D and C have the distinction of being the only A/C in AH with drag from external stores Pylons with or without carrying ordinance.. "
J_A_B
It's rather sad that the only corsair that even remotely lives up to its reputation in AH costs 40-100 perks to fly. If the F4U's performed this poorly they never would have seen action in WW2.
Gainsie
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
It's rather sad that the only corsair that even remotely lives up to its reputation in AH costs 40-100 perks to fly. If the F4U's performed this poorly they never would have seen action in WW2.
Gainsie
:confused:
I've always found the F4Us to be among the very easiest aircraft to use and succeed with.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
It's rather sad that the only corsair that even remotely lives up to its reputation in AH costs 40-100 perks to fly. If the F4U's performed this poorly they never would have seen action in WW2.
Gainsie
This tone sounds familiar.... :D
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RedTail,
I find somewhat the opposite.
The F4U-4 here seems lacking to me.
But the F4U-1 really stands out. Check the K/D on the -1, it is quite impressive for a non-cannon A/C in AH. So does the -4 K/D but the way most perk planes are flown it is not surprising.
Grunherz,
Nice Avatar;)
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Anyone have a website I can post pics too? I have a 1D converted to a -4 wing in my shop as well as a -4 wing... it shows the different setups... Will post if ya'll like.
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They only thing i miss in the F4U is it's sustained climb. It did have one huge prop.
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Bodhi,
How big are the pics? If they are not too large I can post them.
Griego,
The F4U's performance actually got better when they reduced the length of the prop and increased the width.
Reason being the tips of the prop were reaching to high a mach number and loosing efficiency. The early F4U's were actually faster at lower RPM for this reason.
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I wasn't "complaining," per se. I fly the -1 and -4, when not in a Jabo role, and I enjoy the corsairs. The concern I have is the huge discrepancy in climb rate in the non-4's. It just seems to me I can't spiral climb away from a number of rides in here. It might be me, not the plane, so...who knows?
A question I have is why the difference in weight in the C? if it's not accurate, why the weight change increase? And, is it me, or does the C hog feel a little more stable than the Delta (Less nasty stall characteristics)
I think I am nearly 9:1 in the -4, but only 2.5:1 in the -1, but the -4 really gives me the option to run like hell, and I always have to LOL
F4UDOA, can you give me examples where you feel the -4 is inadequate?
Grunherz...yes, this IS a familiar tone, isin't it? :)
Karnak yes, it is fun to fly, I wouldnt call it easy, however. It took time for me to get dangerous in it.
Bodhi, post the pics here! I'd love to see em.
GAINSIE
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RedTail,
You weren't complaining. That just Grunherz's way of being affectionate, it means he likes you. Just don't let him follow you into any public restrooms:p
Anyway I can do more than tell you what is wrong with the F4U-4, I can just show you. The speed is pretty close but the climb is not.
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/f4u4t.jpg)
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/f4u4i.jpg)
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Thanks,
I'm going to assume you did your homework, and the stats youre testing in AH are based on identical ammo and fuel loads?
I usually up clean, with 100% Fuel and two externals. Initial combat weight for me is clean with 100% Fuel, depending on situation.
I'll pay more attention to my CR and report to the posting...well, once I can afford one, that is :mad:
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
I think I am nearly 9:1 in the -4, but only 2.5:1 in the -1, but the -4 really gives me the option to run like hell, and I always have to LOL
I love the C, probably my favourite plane - this tour i have 46:0 in it, last tour 137:3 (2 were crashes :() . Mostly all A2A. Thing with the Chog is you need the right sort of fight to be successful in it, i spiral climb over CV to about 8-10k minimum, then BnZ to my hearts content the low furballers!
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
Unfortunately the F4U-1D and C have the distinction of being the only A/C in AH with drag from external stores Pylons with or without carrying ordinance..
what about those big fat pylons under my bubbletop jug wings?
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"I have never seen anything that says a P-51D was any faster than it is here in AH except when adding higher octane fuel. "
This is because all the "official" U.S. tests were done with the bomb/DT pylons attached, and they were only very rarely removed since the kind of missions the 51B and D generally flew required them.
The P-38 also appears to have the drag from the rocket racks; this is why we have a 414 MPH P-38L instead of a 420+ one.
I'd assume the P-47D-25 and D-30 also have the drag from their wing pylons modeled, since like the P-51 these pylons were present in all the "official" flight tests.
I think this is why the F4U-1D has its stub rocket racks included in its flight model--in the sort of flight tests that HTC seems to use as their basis for flightmodels, these racks were almost always present on the F4U-1D (and to be honest they weren't removed all that much in the field, either). I too would like to see a better-performing -1D, as I feel the plane doesn't quite see its fair share of use in AH.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Furball
I love the C, probably my favourite plane - this tour i have 46:0 in it, last tour 137:3 (2 were crashes :() . Mostly all A2A. Thing with the Chog is you need the right sort of fight to be successful in it, i spiral climb over CV to about 8-10k minimum, then BnZ to my hearts content the low furballers!
Very much the way I fly them. I always climb out above the CV, cause a low and slow Corsair is an easy target.
Likewise, I ran up a similar score with F4Us, losing 3 to collisions, (all my fault, flying into wreckage) and one each to a PT and B-26.
Unlike many fighters, the C-hog deals with co-E and co-alt enemies by simply breaking into them. They have the option of bearing off or taking the HO, which they almost always regret. Even if they do bear off, a big bootful of rudder may still allow you to hose 'em as they go by.
Nonetheless, the F4U requires care to avoid getting caught without E, where it does not perform very well. However, the F4U-4 is a different animal, it has the power to make it one of the most dangerous fighters in the game. P-51s, Doras and Tiffies are in real danger when faced with the -4.
I think I'll spend some time in the Mossie for tour 39, just for a change of pace.
My regards,
Widewing
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Sancho,
The Pylons are similar to the ones on the D hog. But the drag isn't modeled as far as I can tell.
JAB,
I have never seen the source docs for the P-51D. In fact I have never seen a real source doc of a P-51D, P47 or P-38 (not including flight manuals).
If anyone has one I would luv to see them.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Unlike many fighters, the C-hog deals with co-E and co-alt enemies by simply breaking into them. They have the option of bearing off or taking the HO, which they almost always regret. Even if they do bear off, a big bootful of rudder may still allow you to hose 'em as they go by.
Yup widewing, in a HO situation i usually give a long burst when the enemy is 1.4 away, then break off, i use same tactic against PT boats to good effect. Usually though i try to avoid HO's, i like using the roll rate on the f4u to scissor with enemies, it is a very manouverable plane when its fast.
If i find a co-alt aircraft is on my 6, i usually point to mother earth, build the speed up, then cut the throttle and do a tight climbing turn, roll over the top. Nearly always the opponent follows and compresses, so as you roll out of the top you are on their 6
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
I fly the -1 and -4, when not in a Jabo role, and I enjoy the corsairs. The concern I have is the huge discrepancy in climb rate in the non-4's. It just seems to me I can't spiral climb away from a number of rides in here. It might be me, not the plane, so...who knows?
GAINSIE
I'm certainly not a great hog driver but I fly the -1 hog afair amount. It's obviously anice zoomer...but I'd never try and spiral climb on anything. Doesn't seem like a good use of the planes strengths at all. Biggest asset the-1 hog has is it's unexpected handling (especially with 1/3 of a tank or less left) combined with great roll rate and dive to zoom...
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Well that's exactly my point, Humble...the power of the corsair seems a little off, to me, based on what I heard and read.
And yes, the corsair is light on its feet wien light on fuel. Add to that appropriate MAP settings, and you can cruise around forever.
Gainsie
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RedTail,
I have annecdotal evidence out the Wazoo that says the same. In fact much of it is more than annecdotal. But how do you get that in AH?
BTW. Much of the problem with the F4U in AH IMHO is related to the stall speeds not being accurately reflected here. I have an open dialog with HT on this so we are at a "Sitzkreig" on the subject.