Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: muckmaw on March 29, 2003, 03:39:45 PM
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=1521&e=4&u=/afp/20030329/pl_afp/iraq_war_us_planners_030329210803
Looks like we have another McNamara on our hands here....
NEVER LET A F***IN POLITICIAN RUN A WAR!!!
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Yep I've been worried about that for a while. Ever since they started debating the budget for the war. If budget is a factor in your military decisions then you need to reconsider why you are going to war in the first place.
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i have no worries..we are kicking the sht out of Iraq...
You will always have guys crying that they want more stuff for there men..it will never be good enough..
Remeinds me of Sub Commanders and Battleship commanders...
Who wants to ever run "only 100" men..they always want to cammand the BIGGEST!!
I have no worries...we are regrouping and are going to smash whats left of Iraq army...
BiGB
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Rumsfeld "Offered Help to Saddam"
By Julian Borgor
Guardian
December 31, 2002
The Reagan administration and its special Middle East envoy, Donald Rumsfeld, did little to stop Iraq developing weapons of mass destruction in the 1980s, even though they knew Saddam Hussein was using chemical weapons "almost daily" against Iran, it was reported yesterday.
US support for Baghdad during the Iran-Iraq war as a bulwark against Shi'ite militancy has been well known for some time, but using declassified government documents, the Washington Post provided new details yesterday about Mr Rumsfeld's role, and about the extent of the Reagan administration's knowledge of the use of chemical weapons.
The details will embarrass Mr Rumsfeld, who as defence secretary in the Bush administration is one of the leading hawks on Iraq, frequently denouncing it for its past use of such weapons.
The US provided less conventional military equipment than British or German companies but it did allow the export of biological agents, including anthrax; vital ingredients for chemical weapons; and cluster bombs sold by a CIA front organisation in Chile, the report says.
Intelligence on Iranian troop movements was provided, despite detailed knowledge of Iraq's use of nerve gas.
Rick Francona, an ex-army intelligence lieutenant-colonel who served in the US embassy in Baghdad in 1987 and 1988, told the Guardian: "We believed the Iraqis were using mustard gas all through the war, but that was not as sinister as nerve gas.
"They started using tabun [a nerve gas] as early as '83 or '84, but in a very limited way. They were probably figuring out how to use it. And in '88, they developed sarin."
On November 1 1983, the secretary of state, George Shultz, was passed intelligence reports of "almost daily use of CW [chemical weapons]" by Iraq.
However, 25 days later, Ronald Reagan signed a secret order instructing the administration to do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq losing the war.
In December Mr Rumsfeld, hired by President Reagan to serve as a Middle East troubleshooter, met Saddam Hussein in Baghdad and passed on the US willingness to help his regime and restore full diplomatic relations.
Mr Rumsfeld has said that he "cautioned" the Iraqi leader against using banned weapons. But there was no mention of such a warning in state department notes of the meeting.
Howard Teicher, an Iraq specialist in the Reagan White House, testified in a 1995 affidavit that the then CIA director, William Casey, used a Chilean firm, Cardoen, to send cluster bombs to use against Iran's "human wave" attacks.
A 1994 congressional inquiry also found that dozens of biological agents, including various strains of anthrax, had been shipped to Iraq by US companies, under licence from the commerce department.
Furthermore, in 1988, the Dow Chemical company sold $1.5m-worth (£930,000) of pesticides to Iraq despite suspicions they would be used for chemical warfare.
The only occasion that Iraq's use of banned weapons seems to have worried the Reagan administration came in 1988, after Lt Col Francona toured the battlefield on the al-Faw peninsula in southern Iraq and reported signs of sarin gas.
"When I was walking around I saw atropine injectors lying around. We saw decontamination fluid on vehicles, there were no insects," said Mr Francona, who has written a book on shifting US policy to Iraq titled Ally to Adversary. "There was a very quick response from Washington saying, 'Let's stop our cooperation' but it didn't last long - just weeks."
Richard Perle as 1 of the warmongers has already gone, when will Oil- err Rums-feld and the others follow?
It's about time!
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"
2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
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Personally... I'm glad Rum's made the decisions he did. We're doing a fine job as is and we can't send our entire freekin military to just one spot in the world. As for that guy who used the line "Were losing people"... well, we COULD have our entire arsenal employed, but we'd still lose guys on the ground. Thats war.
IMHO, Gen Franks and crew should have been getting more forces pre-positioned earlier... it aint like they didn't have 12yrs to plan ahead.
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blitz , the 1980's were 20 years ago , you better update your hard drive.
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Originally posted by john9001
blitz , the 1980's were 20 years ago , you better update your hard drive.
http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html
Very long time, indeed !
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"
2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
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KEKEKEKE ^_^ HUK HUK BAD MANNER
Germany was threatened by France/Poland/Belgium/ETC in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's a "nazi thing".
50 Million people was killed by Germany, millions more injured. For what?
Regards, Gman.
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Originally posted by Gman
KEKEKEKE ^_^ HUK HUK BAD MANNER
Germany was threatened by France/Poland/Belgium/ETC in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's a "nazi thing".
50 Million people was killed by Germany, millions more injured. For what?
Regards, Gman.
They were murdered for the idea of "Großdeutschland" which was an evil idea right from the beginning and i guess ya goverment doesn't want to dress with stinkin shoes like that, doesn't they?
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"
2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
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Originally posted by blitz
2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
ill tell you what for dude to try and prevent the murder of innocent civilians that took place under communist rule in 'reunited' VN. more innocent civilians were murdered in 1 year of communist peace than were killed in combat during 10 years of American lead war. who supplied the arty tanks ammo aircraft to NVN when they attacked to 'liberate' SVN? please note that the aim of America was to preserve SVN as a country not to take over NVN. if it was really a war of liberation and unification why were so many innocent vietnamese brothers put to death for crimes such as being educated? when you visit America visit some of the VN communities in our major cities and ask them why they left 'reunited' VN by boat to come to America. heres a hint it wasnt for job opportunities.
SECDEF is a smart dude. he gets negative comments from some in military because he doesnt automatically hold all SOP as sacred. be glad hes there look at cancellation of SP arty system he really bucked good old boy network to do that so money could be spent to make military more effective. hes way smarter and has way better grip on military reality than McNamara ever did.
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Bring back stormin Norman!!
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What kind of guy can think that ?:
Rick Francona, an ex-army intelligence lieutenant-colonel who served in the US embassy in Baghdad in 1987 and 1988, told the Guardian: "We believed the Iraqis were using mustard gas all through the war, but that was not as sinister as nerve gas.
intelligence ? were ?
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I want to hear more revelations about the peace that US military brought to Vietnamese people.
Song Mi had the only purpose to bring Peace and Democracy to Vietnam.
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Originally posted by anonymous
Originally posted by blitz
2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
ill tell you what for dude to try and prevent the murder of innocent civilians that took place under communist rule in 'reunited' VN. more innocent civilians were murdered in 1 year of communist peace than were killed in combat during 10 years of American lead war. who supplied the arty tanks ammo aircraft to NVN when they attacked to 'liberate' SVN? please note that the aim of America was to preserve SVN as a country not to take over NVN. if it was really a war of liberation and unification why were so many innocent vietnamese brothers put to death for crimes such as being educated? when you visit America visit some of the VN communities in our major cities and ask them why they left 'reunited' VN by boat to come to America. heres a hint it wasnt for job opportunities.
SECDEF is a smart dude. he gets negative comments from some in military because he doesnt automatically hold all SOP as sacred. be glad hes there look at cancellation of SP arty system he really bucked good old boy network to do that so money could be spent to make military more effective. hes way smarter and has way better grip on military reality than McNamara ever did.
Hey, Mr. No-Name get some balls, nobody will harm you :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"
2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
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Blitz..grab your left leaning Urinal again!!..lolol..the guardian..lmfao..
You should hang out with the" radio intercepts"..
Or the "un-named senior military commander"...
Blitz Says"Germany never threatend anyone..ever"
Blitz says " The Holocuast never happened...ever"
yes Blitz..We are just like Germany..One big Santa Klaus..with gifts for everyone!!!!...WAIT!! I think Santa Got you a bulldozer!..go and play near it!!
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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Originally posted by Boroda
I want to hear more revelations about the peace that US military brought to Vietnamese people.
Song Mi had the only purpose to bring Peace and Democracy to Vietnam.
more revelations? you haven't heard any yet. who was supporting the north and who was supporting the south? who was infiltrating and attempting overthrow the north or the south? im waiting for more revelations on how the innocent civilians of SVN were somehow better off when they were rounded up and marched to reeducation, forced labor, starvation, and eventual death after America departed the area.
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Originally posted by blitz
Hey, Mr. No-Name get some balls, nobody will harm you :)
Regards Blitz
no one will harm me? are you kidding. i live in America blitz, which is identical to nazi germany to you. America which is involved in an imperialist genocidal campaign to take over iraq and eliminate the people of iraq. according to you i should be very careful about speaking publicly. but youve lost me are we talking about the communist takeover and subsequent communist murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in communist VN or are we talking about my bbs id? heres a hint sonny off topic dont mean change the subject off topic when you dont have an answer. you are about as in touch with reality as it pertains to world history and current international relations as i am in touch with the mentality of the average woman. ive been divorced more than once by the way.
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Holy hijack Batman....er Blitz!
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Muck.. yah can't judge Rummy the Dummy by one miffed washinton staffers anal dripping in front of a media potato.
I don't like the guy much.. but I assure you.. he aint a Bill Strange or Bobby McNamara.
Read and enjoy. It's as good a picture of Rummy as can be found.. and he is smarter than he sounds.
Mark Steyn
National Post
Monday, March 17, 2003
A headline in Friday's Washington Post captures perfectly the Rumsfeld Effect: "Anti-U.S. Sentiment Abates in South Korea; Change Follows Rumsfeld Suggestion of Troop Cut."
"Change Follows Rumsfeld Suggestion": There's a slogan for the age, and fast becoming the First Law of Post-9/11 Geopolitics.
"The anti-American demonstrations here have suddenly gone poof," began the Post reporter in Seoul. "The official line from the South Korean government is: Yankees stay here."
What brought about this remarkable transformation? Why, a passing remark, an extemporaneous musing -- in other words, "a suggestion from Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld that U.S. troops may be cut and repositioned."
Other politicians sweat for weeks over a major 90-minute policy speech, hire the best writers, craft memorable phrases, and nobody notices. If you want to "re-shape the debate," as the cliché has it, all you need is a casual aside from Rummy. The concept of "old Europe" barely existed until Rumsfeld used it as a throwaway line a month-and-a-half ago. Within a week, it became the dominant regional paradigm. Belgium -- Old Europe. Bulgaria -- New Europe. The entire map of the continent suddenly fell into place for the first time since the Cold War. Even those who indignantly huffed about this unacceptable insult seemed unable to do so without confirming the truth of it: There was M. Chirac telling New Europe they'd missed a perfect opportunity to shut up. Instead, emboldened by Rummy, New Europe let rip.
Alas, last week Rummy's ruminations on rummy nations finally alighted, as they were bound to eventually, on the United Kingdom. The Defence Secretary made some mild remarks to the effect that, if Britain weren't able to participate in the war on Iraq, it wouldn't make much difference. Even some of his cheerleaders on the right thought this was a tad inconsiderate of Mr. Blair. And at the BBC they fell upon it deliriously as evidence that heartless old Rumsfeld would be happy to have Bush's poodle put down and served up at the South Korean farewell banquet with nary a thought: The Secretary, said correspondent Nick Assinder, had managed to "blow a series of holes in the Prime Minister's armour," he had "pulled the rug out" from beneath Blair's armoured feet, etc, etc.
But the thing is: He's not wrong, is he? Britain is helpful, but not necessary. And it would not be unreasonable if Rumsfeld, with a couple hundred thousand guys kicking their heels in the sand for six months, felt that America was being perhaps too deferential to the Prime Minister's domestic difficulties. After all, at what point does Britain's helpfulness cease to be helpful? There are no hard and fast rules, but when Baroness Amos, Britain's Minister for Africa, is chasing M. de Villepin around the dark continent because Guinea's presidential witchdoctor is advising against war (really), it's hard not to feel that, even by diplomatic standards, the whole thing has become too unmoored from reality.
That's Rumsfeld's function -- to take the polite fictions and drag them back to the real world. During the Afghan campaign, CNN's Larry King asked him, "Is it very important that the coalition hold?" The correct answer -- the Powell-Blair-Gore-Annan answer -- is, of course, "Yes." But Rummy decided to give the truthful answer: "No." He went on to explain why: "The worst thing you can do is allow a coalition to determine what your mission is." Such a man cannot be happy at the sight of the Guinean tail wagging the French rectum of the British hind quarters of the American dog.
Not everybody likes the Rumsfeldian approach. Germany was furious when Rummy lumped them with Libya and Cuba. Islamabad complained that he was "extremely callous" in offering Pakistanis serving with the Taliban two choices: "surrender or death." And even the Spanish Prime Minister felt obliged to suggest it might be better if Europe heard less of Rumsfeld and more of Colin Powell.
But it's hard to see why. Europe saw a lot of Colin Powell when he was negotiating Resolution 1441 with M. de Villepin, and a fat lot of good it did Washington. The present anti-Americanism in Europe doesn't distinguish between Mister Moderate and Rummy -- they're all crazed fundamentalist blood-for-oil warhawks. So you might as well give 'em the real thing and have a laugh, rather than sending Colin off to drone bromides about "my good friend Dominique" as the duplicitous French aristo stitches him up one more time.
For those who think world affairs can use a bracing shot of candour, Rumsfeld is the star of this war. At one Pentagon briefing on Afghanistan, some showboating reporter noted that human rights groups had objected to the dropping of cluster bombs and demanded to know why the U.S. was using them. "They're being used on frontline al-Qaeda and Taliban troops to try to kill them," replied Rumsfeld. It was a small indicator of a large cultural shift when NBC's Saturday Night Live introduced a weekly parody of his press conferences, mercilessly mocking not the politician but the dopey journalists.
Writing about Rummy after 9/11, I mentioned two salient facts: 1) He was the only Cabinet Secretary whose offices were attacked, who lost members of his staff and who helped pull the injured from the rubble; and 2) Before that date, he was widely seen as an anachronism -- not just a Bush Sr. retread like Cheney, but a Nixon/Ford throwback. The New York Times' elderly schoolgirl columnist Maureen Dowd mocked him as "Rip Van Rummy." In the last 18 months, she's become Rip Van Dowdy, and he's more relevant than ever. The comparison with Powell is instructive. Everyone understands that the State Department is institutionally problematic -- full of striped-pants appeasers who think the thing to do is roll over for the House of Saud and pass it off as realpolitik. But the Defence Department isn't ideal either -- Rummy inherited a bunch of Clintonian generals locked into an outmoded Cold War structure. The difference is that, unlike Powell, Rumsfeld's fixing the problem -- and, as The Washington Post would say, change is following.
When the Secretary of State was traipsing round the Middle East on his fool's mission last summer, the Defence Secretary (who served as Reagan's envoy to the region) was asked about the "occupied territories" and made you wish he'd been the one sent over to Yasser's boudoir: "My feeling about the so-called occupied territories," he replied, "is that there was a war, Israel urged neighboring countries not to get involved in it once it started, they all jumped in, and they lost a lot of real estate to Israel because Israel prevailed in that conflict."
"So-called occupied territories": There's one for Chris Patten, the EU's leading proponent of the theory of Yasserite inevitability. The Arabs would benefit from a little more straight talk: They're very bad at confronting the consequences of their recklessness. And that's one mistake Rumsfeld's never made, either at the Pentagon or in his pharmaceuticals business -- in both of which, as he points out, if you get it wrong, "people will die." Right now, on Old Europe, South Korea and much else, Rummy's getting it right. A few days after September 11th, he observed, "If you're going to cock it, you throw it." For the last year, we have had the world's longest cock. Let's throw.
© Copyright 2003 National Post
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I want to hear more revelations about the peace that US military brought to Vietnamese people.
Bromide, the reality is we never invaded north vietnam. if we had, yer daddy woulda wound up stitched with 5.56mm rounds and we'd not have to listen to yer wierd ruminations from stalins bellybutton every night.
;)
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Well, if the story is true, it would certainly explain a lot of things.
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Is it me or does Gen Myers look whipped, he looks like Rummy's beaten old dog, more like a nice neighbohr than the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs . I pity him :( .
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Politicians and bureaucrats routinely take potshots at one another through newspapers. It's not unusual to see entire dialogues develop through background interviews and front page trashings of a person or a policy.
Remember the whole Crusader thing? Lots and lots of background interviews given by military personnel that painted Rumsfeld as dictatorial and incompetent... and lots and lots of Defense department background interviews painting the military as inefficient, defiant of proper authorities, and out of touch with modern military realities.
In other words, this article looks like someone who was routinely smacked down by Rumsfeld crying to the press on background. I expect we'll have a retort on background from the Defense department soon trashing those who just did the trashing. And so it goes. As always, the truth is probably somewhere inbetween, but it's important to realize that no matter how unbiased the journalist or fair the reporting, sources often have agendas all their own.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
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For a united and communist vietnam you dummy.
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Originally posted by anonymous
no one will harm me? are you kidding. i live in America blitz, which is identical to nazi germany to you. America which is involved in an imperialist genocidal campaign to take over iraq and eliminate the people of iraq. according to you i should be very careful about speaking publicly. but youve lost me are we talking about the communist takeover and subsequent communist murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in communist VN or are we talking about my bbs id? heres a hint sonny off topic dont mean change the subject off topic when you dont have an answer. you are about as in touch with reality as it pertains to world history and current international relations as i am in touch with the mentality of the average woman. ive been divorced more than once by the way.
I hope ya don't have a car with a 'No War in my name' sticker at the rear window :D
America is a democracy, that's why it has to care about the worlds opinion :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"
2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
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Originally posted by Yeager
2 Million people was killed in Vietnam, 3 million injured. What for?
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For a united and communist vietnam you dummy.
Communist Bastard :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous, it's an "Angriffskrieg"
Mr. Bush, ya kicked out Richard Perle, WTG, get the others now!
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Originally posted by blitz
America is a democrazy, that's why it has to care about the worlds opinion
USA is hypocracy not democracy, or did u meant it by typing democrazy?