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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vermillion on October 19, 2000, 12:34:00 PM

Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Vermillion on October 19, 2000, 12:34:00 PM
Over on a websight that is promoting a new book about WWII in the North Africa campaign, in the authors personal photo gallery (very nice, make sure to check it out) he has a photo he identifies as a downed German aircraft.

 (http://www.actrix.gen.nz/users/ngaiopress/gerplane.jpg)


Caption: "Kiwi soldiers inspect a downed enemy aircraft outside Mersa Matruh"

Is this guy right? It sure looks like the spinner and air intake off a P-40 to me.

Here is the link to the full photo gallery.
 http://www.actrix.gen.nz/users/ngaiopress/smithpix.htm (http://www.actrix.gen.nz/users/ngaiopress/smithpix.htm)

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Westy on October 19, 2000, 12:38:00 PM
P-40.  Not an Axis aircraft.

 -Westy

(although I did think it could possibly a Stuka at first)
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: AKSeaWulfe on October 19, 2000, 12:48:00 PM
Definitely a P40. In response to Westy: Stuka's intakes have exposed and highly visable radiators. You can tell the difference mainly in the piece of metal structure inside the intake that is divided into 3 pieces, those are only on P40s.
-SW
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Maverick on October 19, 2000, 02:04:00 PM
Depends on which side the kiwi's were on doesn't it??    (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)

Mav
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Vulcan on October 19, 2000, 03:26:00 PM
Could have been an Aussie P-40... in which case it definitely is an enemy aircraft.
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: funked on October 19, 2000, 03:31:00 PM
P-40
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Spatula on October 19, 2000, 07:24:00 PM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan:
Could have been an Aussie P-40... in which case it definitely is an enemy aircraft.

<kiwi/assue tauntmode = ON>
If it was an Aussie P40, the Kiwis should have shot it down  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<kiwi/assue tauntmode = OFF>
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on October 19, 2000, 11:38:00 PM
P40 if I had to bet my head. Now I have no idea how the BF109 looked like with their "sand filter" into their modified nose.
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Minotaur on October 20, 2000, 12:01:00 AM
Could it be the nacelle and left wing of an early model P-38?

I don't see a cockpit.

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble


[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 10-20-2000).]
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Maverick on October 20, 2000, 12:06:00 AM
Don't think it's a 38. The wing is set below the enging level. You can see it is resting on the ground.
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Minotaur on October 20, 2000, 12:10:00 AM
     
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick:
Don't think it's a 38. The wing is set below the enging level. You can see it is resting on the ground.

OK, that looked like a shadow to me.  Looking closer I think I see one guy standing on the wing.  

I was also wrong it would have to be a later model P-38.  I don't think the enlarger intake was present on P-38's in Africa, not sure though.

From the intake it has to be a P-40E.  Click on "P-40 Watch" and scroll down a little. (http://www.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/p40a.html)

    (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38-16.jpg)        

This is a picture of a P-38G, which I believe had the same nacelle and intakes  of the P-38F.

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 10-20-2000).]
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Hans on October 20, 2000, 02:20:00 AM
My gut reaction was to say it was a P-40, but on second look it appears to be a high wing aircraft (the trenchcoated soldier is leaning on SOMETHING, and its not down low).

P38?

Hans.
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Ketil on October 20, 2000, 04:41:00 AM
Hans, the chap in the greatcoat is apparently pointing or somesuch. The wing is visible down low as is the shadow of it on the ground. If he was leaning on the wing, where is it between the mustached chap and the big fellow with his back to the camera?
P40, most definitely.
Ket
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: GRUNHERZ on October 20, 2000, 05:28:00 AM
Hi

Plus look at the little black rectangluar shadow behind the top prop blade, P40s had a carb untake in that location and it was that shape too. P40

thanks GRUNHERZ
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: juzz on October 20, 2000, 07:00:00 AM
Clearly a P-40.

In Alfred Price's Spitfire, there is a photo of a Spitfire in US markings crashed into the water at the edge of a beach in Salerno, with a troop ship disembarking in the background. Apparently the official US caption to the photo reads - "The Curtiss P-40(foreground) was shot down by mistake by our Anti-Aircraft..." Oops!

Minotaur, that's a P-38J - at least, it has the redesigned engine intakes. The older style were angled back and more streamlined with the engine cowling, thusly:
 (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38-14.jpg)
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Jigster on October 20, 2000, 02:04:00 PM
Hmmm. I can make out Curtis Electric on the prop.

- Jig
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Tuomio on October 20, 2000, 07:55:00 PM
p-38 is really out of discussion here! Look yourself.
 (http://www.kolumbus.fi/lauri.wikstrom/gerplane.jpg)
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Minotaur on October 20, 2000, 11:48:00 PM
 
Quote
Originally posted by juzz:
<snip>

Minotaur, that's a P-38J - at least, it has the redesigned engine intakes. The older style were angled back and more streamlined with the engine cowling, thusly:

<snip>

Hmm...

Juzz;

You better look again, because the picture of the P-38 I put up is not a P-38J.

Hint  --> Champagne Anyone?

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Wardog on October 21, 2000, 01:03:00 AM
LOL, it was a German p38   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

  (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/beute1.jpg)  


Ya never know   (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

this makes me cry...

  (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/p_51.jpg)  


This will make Frency cry..

  (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/p_47.jpg)  

And look what they did to my beautyfull Typhoon..

  (http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wardog/hawker.jpg)  


Axis flew many allied Captured AC.. And that butt ugly Yellow tail on the p38, Typhoon and p51 ive also see on the Captured Spitfire IX..

Prolly so there own didnt shoot them down..

Dog out..




[This message has been edited by Wardog (edited 10-21-2000).]
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Jigster on October 21, 2000, 01:20:00 AM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Minotaur:
Hmm...

Juzz;

You better look again, because the picture of the P-38 I put up is not a P-38J.

Hint  --> Champagne Anyone?


I think Juzz meant the conversion model to the M. The J did have the same air intakes, and aside from the changes in the nose and cockpit, were very simular (as all are after the intake conversion)

Did make a nice VIP transport  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

- Jig

Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Animal on October 21, 2000, 02:01:00 AM
look what they did to my beautiful p38  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Hangtime on October 21, 2000, 02:25:00 AM
If I recall correctly; Galland put together a 'Flying Circus' of captured allied A/C..

These planes toured about various western front bases; giving many germans pilots at those bases an opportunity to fly the adversarys A/C.. I don't think these were used for 'combat'.. just familiarization in enemy A/C capabilities.

Hang
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: milnko on October 21, 2000, 08:55:00 AM
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Over on a website that is promoting a new book about WWII in the North Africa campaign, in the authors personal photo gallery (very nice, make sure to check it out) he has a photo he identifies as a downed German aircraft.
Caption: "Kiwi soldiers inspect a downed enemy aircraft outside Mersa Matruh"

Looks like the consensus is That Ain't No German Plane!![/i]
Although the clincher would be to know the year the photo was taken.

As much as I like the P-40's looks, and being a "Kraut-Can" driver myself I feel slighted that he would miss-identify the A/C as an axis plane.

------------------
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Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: juzz on October 21, 2000, 11:09:00 PM
Minotaur, you started by saying:
 
Quote
This is a picture of a P-38G, which I believe had the same nacelle and intakes of the P-38F.

Well, in any case that plane is clearly not a G, nor does it have the same intakes as the F.

Then:
 
Quote
Hint --> Champagne Anyone?

If you were refering to this plane:
 
Quote
P-38L-5-LO Ser No 44-25605 was rebuilt by Hindustan Aircraft in India as a special VIP aircraft for a General Stratemeyer. The plane had a transparent nose, which made it look a lot like the "Droop Snoot" pathfinder Lightnings used in the European theatre. The General sat in a special seat inside the nose, and the inside walls of his "office" were lined with leather. There were even provisions for a built-in Thermos jug (I won't even ask what was IN the jug :-)). Sort of reminds me of General Dreedle in the movie *Catch 22*. Nowadays, if *Sixty Minutes* were to get wind of such an extravagance on the part of the military, heads would roll.

Then why did you intentionally mis-label it as a G, and why does the USAF site call it a droop snoot?

Jigster, I think maybe you're confused here?
 
Quote
I think Juzz meant the conversion model to the M. The J did have the same air intakes, and aside from the changes in the nose and cockpit, were very simular (as all are after the intake conversion)

Did make a nice VIP transport


 (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38-24.jpg)

That's a P-38M, and I don't think the GIB looks very comfortable.  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Either way, the plane in the picture is a P-40!  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Jigster on October 22, 2000, 01:43:00 AM
They were carrying passangers in the P-38 long before the haunch back seat of the M or the L and droopsnoot.

Remember, it was not all to uncommon to make pick-up runs in France after the invasion, to bring people who needed immediate return (and the pilots were often repayed with French wine  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) )

Anderson and Yeager were said to do that on a number of occasions, landing a P-51, having a passenger ride in their lap all the way back to England.

So ya, I'd say the M was more comfortable then squatting on the radio equipment  (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

- Jig
Title: Aircraft Identity? German?
Post by: Minotaur on October 22, 2000, 11:19:00 AM
Ouch....  How did this road get so rocky?

Juzz;  

Lets face it I was wrong.  I thought P-38G, F5A and Droopsnout were the same.  I was more interested in the nacelle intake structures to discount my claim that Verm's picture was a P-38.  My bad, but it still don't look like a P-38J.

Remember this? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000234.html)

 
Quote
By Minotaur

Juzz, you fell for the oldest trick in the book...  

Check Three! Check Three!    (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)

   (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38-22.jpg)  

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 10-22-2000).]