Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: wetrat on March 29, 2003, 10:01:52 PM
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There are a whole lot of mistakes I see people make in the various arenas, and there are several that many of the more "experienced" pilots count on people to make and exploit them. I myself make some of these "mistakes" all the time, simply because I count on most people in the arenas to not know how to take advantage; mind you, whenever I come across a decent pilot I'm screwed.
Here they are, in no particular order:
1) Attempting to out-turn a slower con. This is one of the most common mistakes among the newer TnBers (spits, nikis, etc). It doesn't really matter what the other guy is in, if you're closing on him fast, he's going to turn tighter than you, and if you go after him, you're screwed. If he turns, go into a zoom climb or something. This is in fact the most common mistake I come across.
2) Making a few turns, seeing that the other guy knows what he's doing, and giving up. Quite often I'll be attacked by someone in a spit and go into a rolling scissor, or make a few turns and try to rope them, and all of a sudden they'll give up and try to get away. Now that CAN work, but it depends entirely on what you're in and what the other guy's in. If the other guy can accelerate better than you, giving up and heading for home is one of the worst things you can possibly do.
3) Waiting too long to break when being bounced. Quite often I'll dive down on a con, get in fairly close (around d800-1k), and then the guy will break left, right, or simply attempt to do a loop. This isn't a great idea; if the guy bouncing you is anything approaching a good shot, you're going to be smacked pretty hard. When a guy is in that close, he'll have enough time to adjust and get his nose on you. Granted it will most likely be a shot with 70-90 degrees of deflection, but I find deflection shots easier than shooting from dead 6. If you want to wait until the last second to break, for gods sake, do a split S (looping towards the ground).
4) Holding hard turns for too long. This actually happened the last sortie I flew. I was fighting a Spit IX in my 109G2 for 30 seconds or so when he went into a hard, flat sustained turn. Myself being cocky and a complete sucker for that kind of thing, I followed him. I couldn't keep up, and if the guy in the Spit (forgotten his name) looped towards me or something I'd have been screwed, but he just kept turning, and I stayed with it. The Spit was turning a hell of alot faster than me, but eventually, I got my nose on him and hit the 90 degree deflection shot. This happens alot; people assume that the plane with the larger turn radius will just squirt out in front of them without putting themselves in danger, but that just isn't so. Again, any good shot will likely hit that deflection shot and rip through you before he squirts in front.
I'm having a brain fart at the moment and I'm tired of typing, so I'll leave it at that. If I think of anything else I'll add it, but if anyone else can help me out and put some things I've missed, go for it.
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#1 mistake i notice,,,is bogey goin into flat turn after the merge.
#2 Target Fixation
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#1 mistake I make - setting autoclimb and then stepping away to take care of household chores. :p
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Typing death! Landing, in flight...Don't matter where but it happens all the time. :)
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2) Making a few turns, seeing that the other guy knows what he's doing, and giving up. Quite often I'll be attacked by someone in a spit and go into a rolling scissor, or make a few turns and try to rope them, and all of a sudden they'll give up and try to get away. Now that CAN work, but it depends entirely on what you're in and what the other guy's in. If the other guy can accelerate better than you, giving up and heading for home is one of the worst things you can possibly do.
Are you suggesting that it's a good idea to break further out than >1k?
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Originally posted by ccvi
Are you suggesting that it's a good idea to break further out than >1k?
huh? Nothing about breaking in that quote... But in my post I did say that people wait far too long to start breaking. If I'm slow enough to still have control over the surfaces, I'll be able to get a shot on the person. I think I said d800-1k? that's a mistake, I meant more around 650-900. But even so... if at 1k the person just makes a really hard banking turn, the attacker will probably have a 90 degree deflection shot by the time they reach d400.
I generally start my breaks around 1.5-2k... But I don't just pull all the way back on the stick.
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My #1 mistake is forgetting to bring Ewella flowers on our anniversary. Hell hath no fury like a Ewe scorned.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by wetrat
I generally start my breaks around 1.5-2k... But I don't just pull all the way back on the stick.
Ok, agreed. Just a problem of terms :) I don't think that kind of evasive maneuver can be considered breaking.
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Ive learned if the bad guy is coming in fast I start inverting and pulling back toward him (under him)... if he gets a shot at all he will die in the ground.... usually they abort attack.....as soon as he aborts..or is past 3-9 line reverse and try to get him.... if he trys to turn horizontally he will get tooth marks on his elevators....
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yeah, doing a split S is probably the best "break" if you don't want to tear him to pieces as he blows past
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If you want to take a shot at someone as they bounce you, do a barrel roll, starting when he is about 1.5k out (depending on his closure rate, this takes practice to judge) and aim to roll wings level as he is coming past you. Pull into him and let fly as he tries to extend. However DO NOT follow them up trying to get the shot or you will be rope-a-dope'd...
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Nahhhhhh mako. If I'm picturing what your suggesting correctly, if the guy bouncing has control of his elevators and isn't going unearthly fast, he can just pull a lot of lead and pop ya at the top of your loop. I've done it many times; not sure if we're talking about the same thing though.
What I usually do (if I see the guy before he hits 1k) is start a gentle turn into them, pulling maybe 2G, and I start pulling tighter betweel 1.5-1k. After I'm nearly flying in the opposite direction, I pull a loop and smack, off goes their tail if I timed it right, or saddle up if they keep turning after me. Basically the same principle when I spot the guy between 1k-750, but it gets a big more dangerous.
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If someone is bouncing me, it is a very rare occassion that I begin my counter-maneuvers until the enemy is *right at* guns range, but not quite - which translates to about 900 yards, sometimes closer if they arent closing very quickly.
Nim
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Originally posted by wetrat
Nahhhhhh mako. If I'm picturing what your suggesting correctly, if the guy bouncing has control of his elevators and isn't going unearthly fast, he can just pull a lot of lead and pop ya at the top of your loop. I've done it many times; not sure if we're talking about the same thing though.
When I come across someone who doesn't know the difference between a barrel roll and a loop, they are usually pulling their ripcord about 10 seconds later... ;)
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Well it also matters what the plane is that is closing doesn't it? To take extreme examples, if it is a 262 with the spud guns you can wait until he is quite close and then do a very small break and turn back into him for a quick shot. If it is a P-47 that can start spraying with tracers off at 1K you want to try something different. (If it is a Spit V I figure it is Levi and just auger. It saves everyone time.)
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The most common mistake out there has to be "improper ACM". Obviously if someone is asleep at the switch or typing you'll get a pure bounce and the occasional "baby seal" who decides to dogfight your hurricane II-c in his pony...and then wonders how you shot down the "best fighter of WW2"...:eek:
90% of the time however it's simply a case of doing the "right" thing at the wrong time...example last week I was in an FM-2 I'd upped from a capped field...happened to have 50% fuel and DT's from last use...notice no one "on me"...as I rolled from hanger. Apparently the 1st wave had just left...so I kept her low and scooted on out...then climbed up back up and turned toward base I figured next wave upping
Anyway low and behold I see a low pony ...scooting back home. I dive in and he starts breaking and evading at about 1.5...off on the gas and I watch easily 2-3 very nice evasives...all before I hit 600 out...anyway I had no problem cutting inside evasive #4 at 400 and sawed a wing of with a tracking shot at 200.
Now obviously I had a better turning plane with a significant energy advantage and nothing he was going to do would change the fact that I had the initial edge...however had he waited till he actually denied or minimized my attack he had a real chance of either evading or nuetralizing my e state and then playing with me...realistically I bet I only had 2 passes before the E battle equalized...I dont think an Fm2 even does 300 on the deck.
If you look at the comments above the "aces" are all talking about employing a single ACM at a specific time under clearly defined parameters to achieve a specific outcome...then adjusting tactics to the "new reality"
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My # 1 Mistake: Taking a piss at the wrong time :rolleyes:
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2) Making a few turns, seeing that the other guy knows what he's doing, and giving up.
"Once committed to an attack, fly in at full speed. After scoring crippling or disabling hits, I would clear myself and then repeat the process. I never pursued the enemy, once he had eluded me. Better to break off and set up again for a new assault."
"Combat flying is based on the slashing attack and rough maneuver. In combat flying, fancy precision aerobatic work is really not of much use. Instead it is the rough maneuver which succeeds"
Erich Hartmann
3) Waiting too long to break when being bounced.
Taken from:
Dobs' Tactical Forum
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Defending against Higher Alt/Higher E Bandit - 1/24/99
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Ever been cruising around, trying to get altitude, when all the sudden you see this Bandit 5k above you appear in the distance? Your first thought is DAMN! Now I'm in trouble! Well, Yes and No. Yes he has the advantage, but No you are not necessarily in trouble. The dumb thing to do is to try to climb to him. You will end up slow and what I call a "grape", a pulpy mass just ready to be plucked. Here is how you defend yourself against that Hi alt threat.
1. Immediately level off/start slight descent to get airspeed. Desired is 250+.
2. KEEP SIGHT OF THE BANDIT!
3. Do Not turn towards the Bandit….make him tip his hand toward you, i.e. he sees you and is making a run on you.
4. As soon as he starts down on you.. level out, keep going straight. KEEP SIGHT OF THE BANDIT!
5. When the Bandit hits d10 then roll inverted and pull through. He will not be able to follow. If he tries then roll back the other way and pull. You will overshoot him.
6. You have now brought the Bandit down in alt, made him lower E (potential and Kinetic), and kept your speed up.
7. Watch the Bandit. If he tries to roll in again repeat above. Do this until he gives up in disgust, or you find yourself at 100'. "
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On Breaking -
I'd agree on type/plane vs. changes min. break range, except...
Like most online type games, there is always a little delay. The object behind you is usually closer than the object in front of you. This is especially true is the behind object is fast. Of course if you break too soon, you alert the guy that you were paying attention before he is commited to that line of engagement.
On Head-on shots -
A head-on shot is legitimate, and lets face it, if you know what you're doing and your approach is nose-to-nose, minimizing the vertical seperation is important. Very important if the plane you're engaging has better turn performance. Being shot head-on can most times be avoided or the damage minized by passing under the bogey and getting a little out of plane with the incoming bad guy.
Since the idea of a fighter is to get the guns on the other guy, if the other guy is doing his job he'll be doing the same. Most of the time I see guys getting taken out by head-ons they were shooting too, just not as accurately and persisted on keeping the target in the sites. Pressing a bad position.
It takes two to head-on, and they are usually trying to make the same shot. Not too much to complain about if it happens to you.
I try to impress that fact on my squad. Personally the only time I take a head-on shot is if I have to. This usually occurs after I've already over committed to a situation and finally realize this is probably the last time this guy will be on the muzzle end of my guns.
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Great info guys!
Another common mistake I observe is someone repeatedly taking off (attempting to) from a capped field.
Mind you, I will sometimes but I'm stubborn. I also will only try it if I deem it vitally important to try to save a field from capture. Even then, I try to recruit a couple of other fools to spawn at the same time, hopefully, giving 1 of us a chance to get the goon, or at least one of the cappers. Upping repeatedly from a field with 6 enemies circling, in a plane with poor low speed/low alt performance (like a P51) has got to be one of the dumbest things I see in the game.
If you're new to the game, DON"T DO THIS! If you're not new, do it conciously knowing you will probably die, and find help.
The Alternative: Take off from the nearest field and get a little altitude on the way, or spawn a ground vehicle if available.
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Couple comments...
#1 Break turns -- The faster the guy is coming in on you the earlier you need to make your break turn, 2k-1.5k is good if the guy is really hauling ass. Split S is by far the best way to foil shots but should be avoided if possible as it really puts you defensive.
#2 Biggest mistake I see in furballs is people pulling maneuvers while really low on E or stalling out. 1 v 1 that kind of stuff can fly but in a multi-con environment it's suicide; guys like me who keep their speed up look for it and capitalize on it (very easy shots to connect). IMHO *any* plane can be flown as an E fighter within its envelope, flying below corner velocity shouldn't happen much except in rare cases.
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bah, quiet Ely, you cherry picking dora pilot :D
knife fighting in furballs is the only way to keep myself entertained :p
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repeatedly taking off (attempting to) from a capped field.
If there's room to move, and your not alone, some of the best fights are doing just that.
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#1 just learning B-n-Z flying in keeping speed then watching pilot making a break turn or loop and being TOO FAST and trying to follow hard and leaving thier wings behind.
#2 using auto combat trim. good for learning. bad for advanced flight as its made for most control at current speed. as it will state in most avionics the closer to the edge of no control you are the faster it will turn. I know sounds strange. but seen what they meant when showing new designs of aircraft. the design of the craft that is highly unstable is capable of doing things a stable one is not. albeit dangerously but its fact. so at 250 and trimmed for speed will not allow you to turn like you could with elevator trimmed up. I have pulled my nose around slowly buy out trimming a person.
#3 turning flat when you have speed over enemy. first your losing E second turning wider. either pull an early eliptical turn to take single deflection shot (prolly only get one try so gotta shoot well) or use your speed and turn in the vertical. if you turn using your speed in the shape of a roller coaster you are using your speed to fly farther but inside the same horizontal space saving E incase something bad happens.
#4 H.O. not a safe thing to do if there is a way out. I know it takes two. but the better shot will win not neccesarily the better pilot. and not always the bigger guns. (not tootin my own horn but) have went head to head with a 109 while in a hurri with only 303s and shreaded it at a range of 900.
Im only a fair pilot at best cause of several things between stick and computer issues but most of all getting back into is after around 2 years and getting antsy to rack up kills all the while getting my 6 handed to me.