Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: straffo on March 31, 2003, 01:53:48 AM
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As proud members of the World War II online community, we the French and French speaking members are outraged by the many intolerant messages posted on the Off topic Board. Those messages were in most cases direct or indirect insults toward people from France, because of the decision taken by French government not to support war. Even if we strongly believe that everyone is entitled to have his own opinion we do not think it is appropriate to insult, bash or threaten French people, culture or history.
America and France always shared a special link. France was always fascinated by the states and its achievement, Americans on their side always admired French culture. It’s true that there were always tensions between English speakers and French speakers, which probably date to the Britain and France wars including the 100years war in the middle ages and Napoleon campaigns. However this rule seemed to not apply fully between France and America, probably because of the independence war, when French troop under the command of La Fayette fought along Americans against the brits. It’s maybe true that this action was done more to defeat Britain than to help Americans, but since then, both countries respect each other and most importantly inspire each other. One good example is the French revolution that was inspired by the democratic regime in the US. Indeed France and the USA are the two oldest democratic countries in the world.
Both countries share many historic similitudes and fought many wars together. French troops shed blood with their American comrades in WWI, WWII, Korea, the first Gulf War, Yugoslavia and more recently in Afghanistan. France stood next to the US during the cold war and would have used its nuclear weapons against USSR if America was attacked, even if that meant total destruction of France.
In World War II 18 year old kids died on the beaches of Normandy so that we the French can live again in a free country: a country which is democratic, a country where you can express your thoughts freely. American kids died so that we can speak freely and give our opinions without being threatened, bashed or insulted by an unfair regime. That is the basis of freedom, everybody is entitled to think freely and speak freely. By insulting people thinking differently than you, you become no better than the people we fight. It is everybody’s right to criticize the policy of a government but no one has the right to criticize a group of people based on their nationality, language, race or religion.
The American or French populations are no better than any other population on the world, they are not more: intelligent, courageous, or have better values.
America is not the only country which has been subject to terrorism. France has been under terroriste threats for more than 50 years (we don’t have a big ocean to protect us). In fact France and USA have both the same objective, destroying all the terrorist networks that pollute this world. France and the USA are both working together to eradicate this threat, good example is Afghanistan, where French troops are involved in securing this country. In regard to Iraq France is by no mean coward or hypocrite. France wants the same thing than US, but does not think that the use of force is appropriate at this moment. You can agree or disagree with this policy, but this does not give you the right to insult us.
Finally we want to thank the rats and the different moderators of the Off Topic forum for their great job. We know it is a tough job to keep this forum clean. We appreciate all the efforts that were made.
For the record: This message was written by the French World War II community which is composed of both anti and pro-war members.
-PlopPlop
-Sab
-Fred25
-Leclerc
-Koctel
-YoupiMan
-Athes
-Gus
-Ranulf
-Cdar
-Carbonized
-lh2Or@n
-W2totor
-Klyde
-Mouchote
-Eldars
-Fleau
-Manfred
-Baluchon chonchon
-Foxbob
-Manchot
-Bibtou
-MysteeX
-Guil
-Meldon
-Mr Jules
-Cocalos
-Joffre
-Edouard
-Benouboy
-Heyman Bigbalou
-Lehor
-Lafarge Hokum
-Menfin
-Messer
-Zebee
-Soloje
-Carpoleon-Chopin
-Deadshade
Original here :
http://www5.playnet.com/bv/wwiiolhq/dg_message.jsp?page=1&group_id=8809&parent_id=2458313&BV_SessionID=@@@@0215054737.1049096481@@@@&BV_EngineID=cadcglcmiklhbjjcgmcggichhl.0
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That is by far the most disguisting and inapropriate post ever on this BBS, especially in light of HTC current request for decency. Please take it down before it's too late for you.
:)
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As a proud descendant of Frenchmen who shed their blood at Agincourt, I fully agree that the entire French nation should not be abused and insulted for the current policy disagreement between the French and American governments.
However, it seems to me, that the current French government was not acting in good faith in the past few months, and it's actions appeared solely meant to delay military action rather than to achieve a reasonable resolution of the current crisis. Why this was done may be revealed in time, perhaps when the archives and weapons stocks of the current and doomed Iraqi regime are examined. Suffice it to say that those actions appeared to me to be in the mold of Vichy rather than DeGaulle
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Originally posted by straffo
Americans on their side always admired French culture.
Is this true?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Is this true?
Hmmm, I don't think so. Maybe. I'm from New England.
Culture for us is a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken (Extra Crispy) and a case of Heineken, while watching the Miss USA pageant.
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Seconded
Regards Blitz
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don't most of the french people agree with their government?
If so... then I believe that they are causing the deaths of coalition forces and many iraqi people. I believe that ultimately they are furthering terrorism. Those who do not support their governments stand are excepted.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
don't most of the french people agree with their government?
If so... then I believe that they are causing the deaths of coalition forces and many iraqi people. I believe that ultimately they are furthering terrorism. Those who do not support their governments stand are excepted.
lazs
A post I can agree with.
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I can undertand the frustration with the bashing and jokes. I am sure there are Frenchmen who disagree with their Government's decision who deserve our respect.
OTOH I heard a recent poll in France indicated that about 33% of the population wants Iraq to win the war. This might even be a higher percentage than in the Country of Iraq!
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so your saying.... us British may still abuse you? just americans cant? :D
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My exposure to the French is very limited. Basically, there's what I see on the news and what I see in this forum. Right now, neither are doing very good at boosting my opinion of them.
If you'd like not to be criticized, then its probably a good idea not to criticize everyone that does it. If you'd like not to be stereotyped, then its a good idea not to go around stereotyping everyone. If you'd like to fight terrorism, you need to fight it everyone and not just in the countries that aren't armed to the teeth with your weapons.
I'll admit that there is a certain amount of arrogance in the U.S.'s attitude towards the French. The French fail to realize it pales in comparison.
MiniD
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And what would be the opinions around the world if it became known the French were supplying Iraq with current Intel on coalition forces?
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Originally posted by Toad
And what would be the opinions around the world if it became known the French were supplying Iraq with current Intel on coalition forces?
I'd consider that an act of war and hope that our leaders see it the same way. You have some inside info on this Toad?
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Originally posted by AKIron
I'd consider that an act of war and hope that our leaders see it the same way. You have some inside info on this Toad?
Do you really think the U.S. wants to start considering things like this an act of war?
I can't be the only one that finds the fact that the U.S. is upset about someone selling the Iraqis night vision goggles hillarious.
The French are pissed because we are ****ing with one of their weapons customers (oh.. that's right... its about oil). So far we've had french scuds, chinese silkworm missiles and Russian tanks as opposition. Who were the three nations most vociferous against this conflict again?
I'd like to see the U.N. do something about arms build ups in certain countries. Discovering oil should not be a qualification for elligable to be sold 4th largest army in the world.
MiniD
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And what would be the opinions around the world if it became known the French were supplying Iraq with current Intel on coalition forces?
That's a ridiculous proposition. Verging on hysterical.
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Originally posted by Mini D
I can't be the only one that finds the fact that the U.S. is upset about someone selling the Iraqis night vision goggles hillarious.
I don't find it hillarious that Iraqis are being given tools that will result in the deaths of US troops. Providing information on troop deployments and equipment that will aid the Iraqis in killing US troops when they would be unable to otherwise doesn't even give me a chuckle. It would piss me off to the point where I would consider doing something about it.
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Iron.. the point is.. its not only an act of war when someone else does something about it.
What was shooting down Soviet Helocopters in Afghanistan? Why?... because of a 30 year old grudge.
Virtually every soldier who has died from every nationality in the last 30 years has been killed with weapons purchased from another country. The U.S., France, Russia, China all have contributed to the deaths of each other's soldiers.
Once again... I'd much rather see strict arms sales limitations in place than simply getting pissed about someone doing the same thing you'd be doing if in their shoes.
BTW... I don't believe the French are giving the Iraqis information that CNN isn't already giving them.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Mini D
So far we've had french scuds
French Scuds ? that's a Russian missile AFAIK.
France sold Mirages F1, Super Etendard fighter bombers and Exocet missiles to Iraq.
That was back in the 80's, when Iran was the menace: Saddam was considered an allied of the west and a rempart against the fundamentalists...
The american government had nothing against Western nations selling weapons to Iraq then: it used to piss the Russians and the Iranians off.
They even facilitated some deals, and never opposed one.
I'm not a fan of Chirac (Mr opportunist) and in no way anti-american, but some people lately tend to rewrite history and have a selective memory !
The world is not divided in convenient black and white : welcome to the shades of gray of real politik !
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Originally posted by Toad
And what would be the opinions around the world if it became known the French were supplying Iraq with current Intel on coalition forces?
Most of the world would probably be fine with that - such is the current state of the "coalition".
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Mini D, it's one thing to sell arms to Iraq even though forbidden by UN resolution. It's another to provide them military aid when we are fighting them.
Regarding the former USSR, we had many run ins with them over the decades, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and who knows where else. These engagements were limited only because unrestrained escalation was unthinkable. Syria for certain, and France possibly, don't share the restraint engendering capabilities of the former USSR.
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Originally posted by -dead-
Most of the world would probably be fine with that - such is the current state of the "coalition".
66 countries and growing.
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Originally posted by Martlet
66 countries and growing.
Well I'll go with the whitehouse.gov's 49 for now (A telling indictment in itself, if even the Whitehouse doesn't think the coalition's membership is important enough to update their site when they get more). But still only 5 fielding troops in Iraq (although the US was none too happy about Turkey's contribution IIRC). Only 4 in numbers over 200. The rest are with you all the way in spirit only (as soon as the cheque clears, naturally).
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Here is the list of people who care!
1)
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Originally posted by Martlet
66 countries and growing.
please provide the complete list.
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Originally posted by Toad
And what would be the opinions around the world if it became known the French were supplying Iraq with current Intel on coalition forces?
put that bottle ,NOW !
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Spooky... thanks for clearing up the mistake. I was thinking exocet because of the Stark incident.
I still maintain that the countries supporting saddams regime are the biggest contributors to his arsenal.
MiniD
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Originally posted by straffo
put that bottle ,NOW !
...or you'll surrender?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
...or you'll surrender?
or I'll make him swallow it. :)
the smilie was stuck in the keyboard :p
it's sounded more harsh than I wanted .
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Originally posted by Turdboy
Here is the list of people who care!
1)
My inital point exactly ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
And what would be the opinions around the world if it became known the French were supplying Iraq with current Intel on coalition forces?
Liar
Regards Blitz
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous - it's an "Angriffskrieg"
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Originally posted by blitz
Liar
Regards Blitz
America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous - it's an "Angriffskrieg"
http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/95/chirac.htm
DOH!
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After Foax propaganda ...
what is this new trick ?
and has judicial bul**** filled a complain against the organisation who has created O. ben Laden ?
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Martlet - where in that article does it say that France is giving Iraq intel about Coalition forces?
Doh!
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This document is full of void ...
btw Martlet you didn't answered my request.
Provide us the list in extenso of the 66 country please.
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Originally posted by straffo
This document is full of void ...
btw Martlet you didn't answered my request.
Provide us the list in extenso of the 66 country please.
If you had a brain, you wouldn't ask for things that can't be provided. I can provide you with the last list I've seen posted, but even that has names left off because they wished anonymity.
Provide me a list of every person living in Germany. Oh, if you can't, they must not exist.
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I have a brain and I've asked a a question.
Now if you don't know the answer you don't need to insult me.
The anonymity is a convenient excuse.
About the judicial watch document ... I will search a bit but last time I checked Interpol didn't worked that way.
You have to fill a complain in your own contry and next the police of your country can request Interpol help.
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Straffo, feel free to try.
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to try what ?
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I am wondering those who slash this post ( straffos) away must have little to do ?
This was a friendly post and some of you just keep on banging them who try going friends.
:confused:
What the fuk is wrong with you guys, some of you had a stroke or somthing, brain not working ?
there is nothing nice, and nothing cool :confused:
I have said it before and saying it again thos who never can be able to see their own faults, is probably those who speak with the highest voice.
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Originally posted by air_guard
I have said it before and saying it again thos who never can be able to see their own faults, is probably those who speak with the highest voice.
I've been trying to point that out to you for days.
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my grammar prolly sucks and so on blah blah blah, but im doing my best :)
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Originally posted by air_guard
I am wondering those who slash this post ( straffos) away must have little to do ?
This was a friendly post and some of you just keep on banging them who try going friends.
So, it's ok for the French to bash Americans but not ok for the Americans to bash the French?
I'll agree that any frenchman that hasn't jumped on his government's bandwagon in denouncing the US is deserving of respect. On the other hand, if he has, I fart in his general direction.
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whos bashing who ?
both is i guess !
I dont care who started it but I wish to see a end of it.
It is going boring and into a neverending story.
Cant see a war with Us and France in the real world actually, that would be stupid, why keep on this stupid posting bull****e against eachother when there is a real war going on.
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I'm french and i support my government. I'm as proud to be french as you are to be american. Now you can search the forums for posts from me bashing US or pro-war sympathizer, you won't find any.
As a majority of civilized people, i've tried to have a discussion not a bashing contest. But it seems that it isn't possible to have a different opinion here (or elsewhere on the web) and it's the same from each side of the barrier (pro and anti-war).
The thing that make me sadest is that we don't act better than our government does. And when i say "we" it's all of us, citizens of world. This is ridiculous.
Now resume your bashing contest, finding the best riddle, the best sentence will make you far more intelligent than others.
There is no democracy acting like that, no excuse to endorse that attitude.
By the way, i totally support the first post from this thread.
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I must, respectfully, ask why there has been such a rush by the French, German, and Russian governments to protect the regime of one of the biggest SOB's in world? The very word "regime" implies that the people of Iraq have no power to choose their leaders. Dissenters are routinely beaten, tortured, and murdered. Hostile ethnic groups become the victims of genocide committed by their own government.
In a democracy, sovereignty is said to rest with the people. The opposite is true in Iraq. By ignoring these facts and trying to galvanize world opinion against the U.S., these countries call their own motives into question and play into Saddam's hands.
My anger is not addressed at the French, German, or Russian people but at their governments, which have taken the stance they have for self-serving reasons.
The U.S. government should not be condemned because it refused to be taken in by Saddam's shell-game. Evidence has already come to light that he does, indeed, have chemical and biological weapons.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by Ouaibe
I'm french and i support my government.
You won't find much bashing of the French by me here, maybe a little. However, France's position in this Iraqi matter will never be forgiven nor forgotten by me. I believe Saddam could have been persuaded to conform or leave without war had the UN been united, something that France was resolute in preventing.
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Reality Check:
France is no longer an ally of The United States of America.
To demonstrate this point.. check national opinion in France.. and The U.S.A.
Why?
France has blocked all international efforts in removing a regime that has and does support terror. France has blocked all international efforts in calling to account the leaders of Iraqs regime for human rights violations.
Why?
France has continued its moral support and material supply of this aknowledged enemy of America, in defiance of UN sanctions, in defiance of U.S. protests.
Why?
Troops are dying in Iraq.. Coalition Troops.. and France STILL does nothing to help end the Regime of Saddam.
Why?
The citizens of France.. the Democracy of France, bear responsibility for the actions of it's politicians.
With us. Or Against U.S.
They have chosen.
So must we.
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Originally posted by straffo
or I'll make him swallow it. :)
Try that.
(Friendly tip: Grease your bunghole first, well enough to take that bottle with out seriously damaging it.)
Oh, yeah........
----> ;)
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Well... I dunno...
I believe the post Straffo copied here was written by someone who didn't have a proficient understanding of English (which coincides with a good number of Americans who post here on this BBS, so nationality obviously holds no relation to mastery of the common language)...
I say this because of one line: That is the basis of freedom, everybody is entitled to think freely and speak freely. By insulting people thinking differently than you, you become no better than the people we fight. It is everybody’s right to criticize the policy of a government but no one has the right to criticize a group of people based on their nationality, language, race or religion.
People are free to bash someone else's ideas, thoughts, or stance on issues as much as the other person is free to bash theirs.
Now as far as nationality, language, race or religion- people are still free to bash people based on that. But lets realise one thing, you would get the living toejam kicked out of you if you do that to someone's face.
I've been to France, and I've run into the good just as much as the bad. I've been across the states, and in certain areas I've run into far more of the bad than the good.
That doesn't stop me from liking where I live based on the people, it's the prinicples and ideals that I like- a LOT of the people I've run into make me shudder with disgust. Much like I'm sure the French enjoy their prinicples and ideals of their country, and I'm sure they have people that are revolting.. even to them, and c'mon- they're French! (Joke Straffo ;) ).
This is primarily an American board, but sometimes you gotta realise... even with the majority backing, you can be wrong and your comments out of place.
Just my broke bellybutton negative 2cents.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKIron
So, it's ok for the French to bash Americans but not ok for the Americans to bash the French?
I'll agree that any frenchman that hasn't jumped on his government's bandwagon in denouncing the US is deserving of respect. On the other hand, if he has, I fart in his general direction.
LOL Right on
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Originally posted by Toad
Try that.
(Friendly tip: Grease your bunghole first, well enough to take that bottle with out seriously damaging it.)
Oh, yeah........
----> ;)
hehe ;)
I was affraid you didn't take it has I intended : as a joke :)
regards
Frédéric
nice post SW.
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Sorry Straffo, I'm gonna hang over your shoulder and never let the French forget...
"France wants the same thing than US, but does not think that the use of force is appropriate at this moment."
(http://www.aucklandcitypolice.govt.nz/History/images/rw1.jpg)
RIP Fernando Pereira and the Rainbow Warrior
Full story for those unaware: http://www.aucklandcitypolice.govt.nz/History/warrior.htm
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what made you suppose I forgot ?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Reality Check:
More like, your opinon check.
France has blocked all international efforts in removing a regime that has and does support terror. France has blocked all international efforts in calling to account the leaders of Iraqs regime for human rights violations.
France planed on blocking US and GB efforts to remove Saddam's regime in the time scale that the US and GB wished. They never used their Security Council veto, as the US and GB didn't want to put a second resolution to a vote in the Security Council that they knew they would lose. There have been plenty of times that the US has has blocked all international efforts in calling to account the leaders of Iraqs regime for human rights violations. Isreal is on example.
"Of the 248 vetoes recorded by the five Security Council members since the inception of the United Nations, the United States has cast 73 - the vast majority of them related to the Middle East.
Here is a list of the US vetoes, in addition to 25 US abstentions on S. C resolutions that are condemning
Israel alone which are 25 out of 71. "
http://www.al-bushra.org/palestine/veto.html
France has continued its moral support and material supply of this aknowledged enemy of America, in defiance of UN sanctions, in defiance of U.S. protests.
Material support? Do tell. I imagine you consider moral support to any comments they made against the US policy of invading a foreign nation. An invasion which is against UN resoltions, in defiance of UN charter, and in defiance of US protests. Whelp it looks like most nations fit that bill.
Troops are dying in Iraq.. Coalition Troops.. and France STILL does nothing to help end the Regime of Saddam.
Civilians are also dying in Iraq..Iraqi civilians..and France STILL does not support an illegal war of agression by a foreign power in the Iraqis homeland.
The citizens of France.. the Democracy of France, bear responsibility for the actions of it's politicians.
True.
With us. Or Against U.S.
I always considered that to be a rather narrow minded slogan. I completely ignores the reality that there are certainly is other options. Options which scores of other sovereign nations can take and have taken.
They have chosen.
As have many other countries. Some of which are freedom loving democracies that have traditionaly been great friends of the US.
So must we.
So you must.
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France sold Mirages F1, Super Etendard fighter bombers and Exocet missiles to Iraq.
That was back in the 80's, when Iran was the menace: Saddam was considered an allied of the west and a rempart against the fundamentalists...
The american government had nothing against Western nations selling weapons to Iraq then: it used to piss the Russians and the Iranians off.
They even facilitated some deals, and never opposed one.
It wasn't only missiles and aircraft. France were the numnuttz that sold Saddam a nuclear reactor...to a country with the 2nd largest oil reserve on this planet! He didn't really need nuclear power, what do you think he was going to use the plant for? Israel knew.
Saddam was really never considered an ally of the west. He was more in the USSR's pocket than USA or the "West's."
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Originally posted by Puke
! He didn't really need nuclear power, what do you think he was going to use the plant for? Israel knew.
Agreed. this was a greedy, stupid move.
(just to prevent the Russians to close the nuke plant deal if I remember well)
That Israeli F16 raid was totally justified in my opinion.
That French government did not get my vote, for what it's worth.
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Originally posted by straffo
what made you suppose I forgot ?
:) I didn't say you forgot, just said I'm gonna be reminding ya. I don't like Greenpeace, but I don't like what happened even more, or what happened after. And I didn't see protests on the streets of Paris.
BTW, best avatar on the whole BBS !
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Best plane of the world ;)