Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on March 31, 2003, 03:11:21 AM
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(http://eurekart.qc.ca/saturnman/owned2.jpg)
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Well yes I agree in a way. If those unarmed guys had just the moral fortitide and leaderhip to stay in place and not move the game would be over for israel. Instead their friends try to blow up the tanks and Israel wins. The palestenians are stupid for choosing arafat over gandhi.
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if the english had shown the proclivity the isrealis had and have for machineguning children attacking allies ect ect ect ect ect . the indians would have made and equaly poor decision.
who cares we only contribute 6 bill or so a year to the semetic thocracy. what a deal with all the stability they lend to the situation :rolleyes:
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You're right Grunherz. They need a Ghandi. Or at least give them something to live for.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
if the english had shown the proclivity the isrealis had and have for machineguning children attacking allies ect ect ect ect ect . the indians would have made and equaly poor decision.
who cares we only contribute 6 bill or so a year to the semetic thocracy. what a deal with all the stability they lend to the situation :rolleyes:
The British had no trouble gunning down or staving scores of unarmed Indians over the centuries be they the old, young, women, men the able or invalids...
Tell me, in the big picture, is a tank a more effective weapon against an unarmed but determined peaceful protestor or against a machine gun wielding "terrorist fanatic"?
Dowding the problem I see with the current palesetenian position is that the very poweful radicals are more concerned with the unrealistic and impossible fantasy of destroying israel than they are with gaining independance and statehood. And I think they know that, this way they get to maintain their power and influence indefinitely - there wont be too much use for a radical kill-israel message when or if palestenian people are busy raising their kids or building their shops instead of this awful mess. Thats what a ratinal people would have to look forward to, to live and fight for - but now it seems their only dream is the destruction of israel, which simply will not happend. Gandhi faced similar challenges with hindu and islamic militants and radicals in india who wanted to rise up and kill the brits and each other wholesale but he managed to calm them down for the most part and in the end as we all know he was killed by one of them, but he was succesful in gaining independance and staehood. The palesteninans dont have such a man and if a people ever needed a gandhi those people are palesteninans.
Its very sad. :(
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Tanks against stoning throwing children.
We just need a few bulldozers knocking their parents homes down making more "stones" for the pal kids to throw, giving the Israelis an excuse to machine gun more pal children so that when one of those lucky children survive the tanks he can become a teenager and strap a nail bomb to his back and blow up a bunch of Israeli kids to avenge his childhood friends.
WTFG Zionists :rolleyes:
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It's a vicious circle of epic proportions. More flock to the extremist flags for every new settlement built, or for every suicide bomb.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
who cares we only contribute 6 bill or so a year to the semetic thocracy. what a deal with all the stability they lend to the situation :rolleyes:
You know, I'm on record here as against US aid to Israel. But if I post on it, I try to use facts
Do you EVER check your statements for truth?
Or is any lie justified in the pursuit of your current agenda?
First it was $5 million dollar cruise missiles that actually cost $500,000.
Now you're misrepresenting aid to Israeal by double.
From the Christian Science Monitor:
Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.
And, as I said, I don't think Israel needs that kind of money from us.
But is sure isn't $6 BILLION they're getting.
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At least he is doing better, from 10 times the lie to only 2 times the lie! :)
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Still, $3 billion is still a big heap of money.
How many hospitals is that? How many libraries or after-school activities would that fund?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Still, $3 billion is still a big heap of money.
How many hospitals is that? How many libraries or after-school activities would that fund?
And how many jacuzzis?
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I think Israel is not totatly commited to the seriousness of a peace effort due to the huge amount of US military aid - all that money and american power lets them misbehave in the knowledge that no matter what the USA will help them. But of course any attempt to curtail this aid will draw the usual namecalling from the usual people in the USA.
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Nah, the Israelis are protected by the jewish lobby. The largest and most influential lobby there is in the US. Israel could pretty much torch the west bank and nothing would happen with the US support thanks to that lobby...
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Originally posted by Toad
You know, I'm on record here as against US aid to Israel. But if I post on it, I try to use facts
Do you EVER check your statements for truth?
Or is any lie justified in the pursuit of your current agenda?
First it was $5 million dollar cruise missiles that actually cost $500,000.
Now you're misrepresenting aid to Israeal by double.
From the Christian Science Monitor:
And, as I said, I don't think Israel needs that kind of money from us.
But is sure isn't $6 BILLION they're getting.
Actually it's now $USD 1 billion in military aid, and $USD 9 Billion in loan guarantees.
Tronsky
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Loans will, in theory, be repaid unlike direct aid.
And before you start, I also seriously doubt they'll ever repay the loans. Particularly given the state of their economy.
However, apples to apples. The loans are not "aid" anymore than your banker gave you "aid" to buy your house.
As I said though, I think the money we provide Israel in toto has got to be addressed and soon. They get WAY too much from the US.
IMO.
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Originally posted by Toad
Loans will, in theory, be repaid unlike direct aid.
And before you start, I also seriously doubt they'll ever repay the loans. Particularly given the state of their economy.
However, apples to apples. The loans are not "aid" anymore than your banker gave you "aid" to buy your house.
As I said though, I think the money we provide Israel in toto has got to be addressed and soon. They get WAY too much from the US.
IMO.
With friends in the gulf right now and terrorist rushing in to try and collect thier 70 virgins I am pissed off.
I wish we would give them (isreal) the 30 billion we had marked to Turkey. Based on the Hamas, Hezbola, "death to amerika" crowd that is currently looking for suicide bombers to flock to Iraq and blow up our guys. I say screw them all they dont deserve a country. On 9/11 they cheered. This weeked they cheered (when a cab blew up) They can continue cheering straight to hell.
If their numbers are correct and 4000 are crossing the border to Iraq to attack our troops, then atleast we wont have to look to hard for them in sleeper cells later.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well yes I agree in a way. If those unarmed guys had just the moral fortitide and leaderhip to stay in place and not move the game would be over for israel.
Tiannamen Square didn't seem to cause Red China to roll over and get usurped.
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The media has alot more access in Israel than China though. Plus China doesn't depend on the US.
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Despite its warlike nature israel is at heart a liberal western democracy, the public and the USA would not support tanks running over masses of gandhi style unarmed protestors day after day - but only if ALL palesteninans agreed to stop the terror.
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Grunherz, the IRA continued to bomb British and loyalist targets, but the British didn't send in the tanks, bulldozing the homes of suspected IRA terrorists. They didn't machine gun rock throwers either. Only once, in 30 years of conflict, did things go a bit nuts and that was right at the start.
Only when a dialogue was started was any real progress made. Yes, sometimes you have to talk to terrorists, even those that would like to see you destroyed.
It is unrealistic of the Palestinians to expect Israel to dissapear. It is unrealistic of the Israelis to expect Palestinians to be satisfied with living as third rate citizens. A compromise suiting both sides must be found.
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Yea but the palestenian terror groups hold onto their fantasy of wiping out israel- they have said they want no peace. And after 4 years of this renewed crap I dont think arafat really wants peace either. It would have been one thing for him to reject that unfair proposal and ask for more negotion - but a whole different thing was to resume wholesale terrorism again. And no I dont think that moron Sharons visit to the holy site was a good enough excise either. They are all nuts, both of them.
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Only when a dialogue was started was any real progress made. Yes, sometimes you have to talk to terrorists, even those that would like to see you destroyed.
Can you have a constructive discussion with terrorists who are bent on your destruction? Has Arafat really represented the needs of his people over these many years?
Again, like in so many instances throughout history, the common man suffers while the leadership serves it's own interests.
The only thing Clinton did which I give him credit for, is brought the two nations to a point where peace would have had a running start....who spoiled that chance for the Palestinians?
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Israeli and Palestinian leadership. The deal was ridiculous, and not one of us would have accepted it.
They are all nuts, both of them.
Agreed.
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And I accounted for that in what i said, it was one thing if he rejected the deal and asked for more negotiation but to start the terror attacks again on account of that or even sharons visit to to the holy area was simply stupid, even more stupid to not stop them in the past four years. Nuts, simply nuts.
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where else is the US gonna test its NEW toys.....
sell em to Isreal....get live combat experience and see how your new toys perform.....:p
as long as you play 2 face poker with the ARABS(saying you want peace yet you arm Israel)....your ALWAYS gonna have problems with Arabs....unfortunately.
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It's always americas fault to you, isnt it?
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When your show of force is so obviously undefeatable, you don't have to shoot very many. I don't see any shooting either way in that pic.
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But what could the tank do if they just stood their ground, no rock throwing no aggression just stood there - hundreds and hundreds of them? What could any weapon do? It could do nothing but kill them.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Nah, the Israelis are protected by the jewish lobby. The largest and most influential lobby there is in the US. Israel could pretty much torch the west bank and nothing would happen with the US support thanks to that lobby...
And there lies the roots of middle east terrorists
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But what could the tank do if they just stood their ground, no rock throwing no aggression just stood there - hundreds and hundreds of them? What could any weapon do? It could do nothing but kill them.
Rubber bullets or tear gas.
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What if they came back tommorow and the next day and the next? And all around the country for years? And what if it was all over TV in every western country? And what if the suice bombings stopped while all this went on? You see thats the beuty of nonviolent resistance, they can only kill you and beat you with sticks - gandhi was a whoopee genious. There is nothing a western country can do but give in after a little while of that. But that would take a gandhi a concept which the palestenians and arabs in general dont seem to understand.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What if they came back tommorow and the next day and the next?
I bet the Israelis would prefer that over them coming back tomorrow and the next day to their markets with bombs hidden on their bodies.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I bet the Israelis would prefer that over them coming back tomorrow and the next day to their markets with bombs hidden on their bodies.
Depends on which isrealis. Well let me be more precise, im not saying there are neccsairily israelis who like the suiced bombmbings but i do know there are israeils who would rather see the conflict go on as is than reach any reasonable peace agreement where israel would likely loose much territory and many settlements.
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There are Zionist nutcases and Palestinian nutcases is what I think you're saying Grunherz. Unfortunately, they seem to hold all the cards.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Nah, the Israelis are protected by the jewish lobby. The largest and most influential lobby there is in the US. Israel could pretty much torch the west bank and nothing would happen with the US support thanks to that lobby...
Egypt gets approximately 2 billion dollars in foreign aid from the US and is, next to Israel, consistently the recipient of the second largest foreign aid package given by the US to any country. So...you gonna explain that one to me Mr "Zionist Jews rule America"?
The Israeli aid package comes with strings: One of the requirements is that Israel must spend 75% of its total allocation in the U.S. Israel does this. It spends almost 2 billion dollars per year of its package buying armaments--guns, tanks, planes, etc. from US armament manufacturers. It looks likes Congress provides the money to Israel and Israel turns right around and spends that money in the US on arming itself in order to defend not only its own interests but US interests as well. This is cheaper for the US than keeping an army in the region.
Here are some statistics from Robert Borsage's article on the U.S. Budget.
We spend 80 billion a year on Nato Defense forces. We spend 30
billion a year on the Asia/Pacific region including 3 billion a year
to maintain 37,000 American troops in S. Korea. In view of this,
spending almost 3 billion in Israel when our arms manufacturers get back 75% of that is a major bargain. We get to keep what amounts to a standing army in Israel without risking American lives and at a fraction of the real US cost to defend parts of the Pacific.
What a deal.
Please, think your opinions through before you air them, unless you happen to LIKE rational, thinking people reading your stuff and saying to themself "what a nut job". The United States would NOT drop so much money on Egypt if the Jewish lobby had control. To tell you the truth, the largest lobby group in the US is the arms manufacturers lobby. The Aerospace Insustry Association alone spends twice the amount of dollars lobbying congress than all of the Israeli lobbies combined.
+Lute
III/JG26 9ST Widow Maker
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But what could the tank do if they just stood their ground, no rock throwing no aggression just stood there - hundreds and hundreds of them? What could any weapon do? It could do nothing but kill them.
They would run right over they like they did that peace nik chic.
AKIron do a search on how many palestinians died by Israelis this year that werent terrorists. You would be surprised.
Hell just few weeks ago Isrealis tanks tanks fired into building catching it on fire. When civilians attempted put the fire out the Isrealis fired a tank shell into them killing several.
You can only kick a dog so long before he bites you. Israel deserves every bit they get.
The Palestians are denied everything from their homes to basic human rights. They have no army, no tanks, no Attack Chopters no jet fighters to resist with.
They fight back with the tools they have, rocks and nail bombs.
But even so check the Kd ratio. See how many pal civilians die in relation to Israelis killed by pal terrorists.
Israel is lead by a war criminal equal to anything Arafat has done.
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Originally posted by flyingaround
So...you gonna explain that one to me Mr "Zionist Jews rule America"?
Uh...where the f*ck did that come from?
Do a search on my username and keyword "Israel" before you draw any conclusions about my opinions.
Tard.
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Originally posted by Batz
AKIron do a search on how many palestinians died by Israelis this year that werent terrorists. You would be surprised.
How the hell can ya tell which ones aren't terroists? You must have some magic glasses or something.
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How the hell can ya tell which ones aren't terroists? You must have some magic glasses or something.
You could go to http://www.ict.org.il/ which has a database of all deaths from Sept 2000. Bear in mind they are an orginisation run by senior members of the Israeli government, military and Mossad.
They have worked out something over 800 innocent Palestinian civilians killed by Israel. Given the bias of the site, it's probably far higher.
What if they came back tommorow and the next day and the next? And all around the country for years? And what if it was all over TV in every western country? And what if the suice bombings stopped while all this went on? You see thats the beuty of nonviolent resistance, they can only kill you and beat you with sticks - gandhi was a whoopee genious. There is nothing a western country can do but give in after a little while of that.
Israel is not a "western" country. No Western country defines itself as a state for one religion only, and gives other religons less rights.
Israel defines itself as a Jewish state.
Every single Palestinian refugee could have the right of return to Israel, if they were to convert to Judaism. No western country defines itself that way, or grants citizenship based on religon.
Jerusalem. It all revolves around Jerusalem. Barak gave Arafat everything ... except Jerusalem.
Barak gave almost nothing.
The Palestinians want the right of return, parts of Jerusalem including Temple Mount, all the West Bank and Gaza, including all the Israeli settlements.
Israel wants to keep all the settlements, all of Jerusalem including temple mount, and no right of return.
Barak's concessions were to remove about 20% of the settlers. He offered about 80% of the West Bank, no right of return, parts of Jerusalem not including Temple Mount.
Barak's offer was basically the Israeli position with no compromises at all. Barak later offered a much better deal, but negotiations ended due to the Israeli elections.
It would have been one thing for him to reject that unfair proposal and ask for more negotion - but a whole different thing was to resume wholesale terrorism again. And no I dont think that moron Sharons visit to the holy site was a good enough excise either.
The Palestinians did not resume wholesale terrorism straight after the failure of Camp David.
From ICT, the Israeli counter terrorism site I linked to:
"The first phase of the al-Aqsa conflict began on 27 September 2000, and ended in late December 2000. At that time Palestinian fatalities tapered off sharply, and remained generally lower until the next September. December 21, 2000 has been chosen as the last day of this first phase. As a first approximation, we can label this phase of the conflict the “real or apparent popular uprising” phase (leaving room for uncertainty as to whether this “uprising” was genuinely spontaneous, or was manufactured by Palestinian leaders), as most of the fatalities appear to have occurred as the result of Palestinian mass demonstrations or riots, and the Israeli response to them. (A more detailed breakdown of these fatalities by Incident Type remains to be done.) "
(http://www.ict.org.il/graphics/GraphPics/Graph2_8.gif)
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No, at its core Israel is a liberal western country with a european style socialist bent - the religius basis is peculiar only becouse of the circumstances of history and the hitsory of jews and the militarism for obvious reasons. The Israeli anti-peace camp would **** its pants if they palestenians got a gandhi.
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Grun explain me why the ultra-orthodoxs are allways in the governement ?
It's close to western standard (closest than any country of this part of the world) but not close enought.
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Who killed Ghandi, Grunherz?
A Palestinian Ghandi wouldn't stand a chance.
And if he wasn't killed by extremists on his own side, he'd be Mossad fodder within weeks of any kind of ascendency.
Non-violent protest does work, I believe. Certainly for MLK and Ghandi - it just takes an irregular kind of matyrdom.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
SNIP -the usual ramblings
They have worked out something over 800 innocent Palestinian civilians killed by Israel.
That number is completely misleading unless you give the details behind every single casualty.
For example,
Israeli F-16 drops bomb on terrorist leader, terrorist leader dies together with 4 innocent civilians who just happened to live in the building the terrorist was hiding in.
Or,
Terrorist drives in a car, Israeli Helicopter shoots missile on car, in the explosion, the terrorist leader is killed, so are two innocent bystanders.
Or,
Terrorists attempt some sort of mini Stalingrad in Jenin. IDF moves in and kills the terrorists. In the battle, several civilians who have refused to leave their homes are killed as they are caught in the crossfire.
All examples of innocent victims, all examples of collateral damage, all examples of what happens when terrorists hide among civilians, all examples of how your numbers are misleading.
Do a count of number of innocent Iraqis if you will, or innocent Afghans...you will find similar numbers there...but that wont change the fact that both Israel, US and UK at least tries to spare the civilians, but it is bloody hard when your enemies deliberately hide in Mosques, Schools, Hospitals.
You should blame the terrorists.
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That number is completely misleading unless you give the details behind every single casualty.
What, things like "Israeli tank fires shell at children on bikes breaking curfew, killing four."
You should blame the terrorists.
Or the Israeli government that is using the IDF to enforce security whilst it colonises Palestinian's lands.
If Israel is ready to uproot all the colonists in return for peace, then the IDF has some justification in it's goals, if not it's methods.
If Israel is not ready to remove the colonists, then it is using the IDF in a war of conquest, and is responsible for the deaths that result.
Considering that Barak never offered to remove the colonists, and Sharon certainly won't, which do you think is closer to the truth?
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I know who killed gandhi I allready said it was one of his own side's extermists. Thats why i think the palesteninas are plowed, they just have the extermists run everything and no man is capable of tempering them down. To be honest i dont think the whole islam jihad martyrdom thing helps either at least they way the militant agitators frame those concepts.
One could even say the israeli nutbags shot their own gandhi when that fool killed rabin. :(
straffo the ultra orthodox are not always in power in israel. They have been influential of course because they are a fanatics but many israelisa are getting pissed at them and all the govt subsidies the ultra orthodox nutbags get or how they mistreat eververyone not follwing their practice during sabbath. There is even a whole new political pary in isreal thats very moderate and secular to combat the orhodox nutbags.
All thise semitic freaks should just stop this idiocy.
Pals must clamp down on death to israel idea and practice.
Jews must give up most settlements.
Jerusalem musat be open to all and have sp;lit custody and dual capital or neither have capital in jerusalem.
Water rights and borgder issues are easy if first two are taken care of.
I really plowing hate this jew palestenian conflict its utterly useless and easy to stop if only they really wanted to solve it. Godddamed fools.
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I allways love the ultra orthodox to settle every where don't do any kind of military for their country are trigger happy and have a huge weight in Isrealy society.
My kind of guy ...
Seriously, I think I'm not to ignorant about Israel ;)
Concerning anti-semitism ... well ... in general I try to avoid shooting in my foot :p
For what I've undertstood (bed time here ;)) of your post Grun I agree 100%
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Iron and Steve you maybe pro-Zionist but denying the number palestinians killed is like denying the holocaust. Theres to many facts to prove other wise.
Look umm up for yourselves if not when ever someone post facts like Nashwan did you will call him a liar. Thats typical bbs behavior but it doesnt change anything.
Israel has a huge lead in civilian kills. Cheer umm on all ya want but they will never have peace if they continue along that path and they wont get any sympathy from a good portion of the world.
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
if the english had shown the proclivity the isrealis had and have for machineguning children attacking allies ect ect ect ect ect . the indians would have made and equaly poor decision.
who cares we only contribute 6 bill or so a year to the semetic thocracy. what a deal with all the stability they lend to the situation :rolleyes:
just fer the record.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
And there lies the roots of middle east terrorists
I would rather have one Isreali ally than 40 other arab allies.
America will ALWAYS support Israel.
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Originally posted by Batz
Israel has a huge lead in civilian kills. Cheer umm on all ya want but they will never have peace if they continue along that path and they wont get any sympathy from a good portion of the world.
The numbers at the link http://www.ict.org.il Nashwan posted don't look hugely disparate to me. And let's keep this in perspective. If the Palestinians stopped their terrorist style suicide attacks what do you think the numbers would continue to be? I'd like a serious answer to this please.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I
Jews must give up most settlements.
They would be stupid if they did. They get mortar shelled from the settlements is why they took over them in the first place.
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They would be stupid if they did. They get mortar shelled from the settlements is why they took over them in the first place.
They didn't "take them over" the settlements are newly built civilian towns and villages. They don't increase security, they require huge numbers of Israeli troops to guard them, at great cost, both in lives and money. (to both sides)
The driving force behind the settlements are religous Jews who believe it is their God given right (and duty) to live in the West Bank. They call it "redeeming" the land.
There's an interesting fact about Palestinian home made motars. They haven't killed any Israelis.
Suicide bombs have killed hundreds.
Israel has a peacefull border with every Arab country it's made peace with, and a relatively peacefull border with the others (Hezbollah and Syria)(yes Hortlund I know Hezbollah isn't a country)
It continues to intermingle it's soldiers and civilians with the Palestinians, whilst denying them citizenship, in Israel or a country of their own. The Palestinians have been subject to land siezures, deportation, and Israeli military law for 35 years.
There's never been a case of a population being ethnicaly cleansed that went peacefully, and this was never going to be the first.
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Hortlund, to get back to the thread title, what do you mean by "prevail"?
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i hope the israeli's prevail. they are fighting an inhuman, disgusting group of individuals who in my opinion dont even deserve a "state". they willingly send their youth to kill themselves, and innocent civilians. They are shamefull!
It disgusts me, and the only people I have sympathy for are the children who are being brainwashed by hateful islamic radical idiots. oh well. anyone who deliberately coats the metal in their bombs with rat poison is a target in my book, and unworthy of anything other than a merciless and miserable death!
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Originally posted by N1kPaz
i hope the israeli's prevail. they are fighting an inhuman, disgusting group of individuals who in my opinion dont even deserve a "state". they willingly send their youth to kill themselves. It disgusts me, and the only people I have sympathy for are the children who are being brainwashed by hateful islamic radical idiots. oh well. anyone who deliberately coats the metal in their bombs with rat poison is a target in my book, and unworthy of anything other than a merciless and miserable death!
Yea thats the ticket!
The palestenian Israeli issue is not as simple as al qaeda or saddam.
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im sure if our country had been occupied for the past 50 years by a group that treats us as 3rd class citizens, we wouldnt be playing fair as well.
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i speak from my soul man. cant help it. i have no sympathy for any people who strap explosives to their sons. Sorry.
i have no doubt it is an immensely complicated issue, but the palestinian way of doing business is not acceptable.
Maybe they need parenting seminars????
:confused:
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Originally posted by lord dolf vader
if the english had shown the proclivity the isrealis had and have for machineguning children attacking allies ect ect ect ect ect . the indians would have made and equaly poor decision.
who cares we only contribute 6 bill or so a year to the semetic thocracy. what a deal with all the stability they lend to the situation :rolleyes:
Well as a Jew i take great offence to the above statement!!
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
im sure if our country had been occupied for the past 50 years by a group that treats us as 3rd class citizens, we wouldnt be playing fair as well.
People in general fail to see this because they consider 3rd classes to be lesser human, wether they admit it or not.
To many, 1 Israeli is worth more than 1 Palestinian.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Israel has a peacefull border with every Arab country it's made peace with, and a relatively peacefull border with the others (Hezbollah and Syria)(yes Hortlund I know Hezbollah isn't a country)
heheh yes its peaceful with syria. ince they took the golan heights from them. One of the main places for Syria to lob mortars from.
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Look at the Jew's in history.
If you are one i think you can see how they might just be a little trigger happy.
No one group of people have been more persecuted in history than the hebrew.
From the bible till now.
If the palestinians would stop all the terror tactics i think over a long period of time it might work it self out.
So look at the jew's as the kid that got beat up all the time in school and when they grew up they learned how to fight and vowed NEVER again!!!
I think you have to be a Jew to fully understand.
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24hour cerfews while tanks roll around the streets sounds like a fun way to live. i bet its really fun when they remove you from the home of your family for the past few hundred years(most eastern cultures value this far far far more then we do) so they can make room for some settlers from new york just looking for some Lebensraum. Suicide bombers are disgusting people, but so are people that use tanks to fire on children and bulldozers to roll over protestors.
It really dosnt matter who started it, but the fact is it wont stop till you do some ethnic cleansing or you give them a damn country to live in.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
It really dosnt matter who started it, but the fact is it wont stop till you do some ethnic cleansing or you give them a damn country to live in.
Thay have a country ISRAEL
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Thay have a country ISRAEL
Palestinians are not allowed to become Israeli citizens, except for a handfull who manage it by marriage.
That's the problem, they aren't allowed any state, not a Palestinian one or to be part of Israel.
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rc51 i really suggest you read up on the way they are treated. Isreal is not their country. Their country was repo'd like many had their homes taken from them. Its like if mexico came into texas and with the backing of the US and the UN said "well this is our land god gave it to us 2000 years ago". and then you were kicked out of your home so a mexican could live there.
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LOL I think this country always has and always will belong to the AMERICAN INDIAN!
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Akiron that link is a to an orginisation run by senior members of the Israeli government, military and Mossad.
They estimate near 800 palestinians civilians killed. That most likely is a lo number.
Israel is a Zionist state, Zionism is on par with Nazism. The head of that Zionist state is run by war criminal. Branding any resistence to the Israeli occupation and subjugation of Palestinian land and people as blanket terrorism is naive.
The Palestinians simply respond to Israeli aggression with the tools they have available. They have no army, no planes no missiles etc.
Equating the type of "terrorists" action by palestinians to those of Al Queda or even in Iraq is wrong.
Israel creates any hatred d toward them by indiscriminately targeting any non-Israeli who gets in their way.
The very action by which the Palestinian "terrorist" use are the same used by the Zionist to help force a Jewish State. The very same ones.
The Zionists have continue to expand the territory not as result of wars forced against them but through settlements, bulldozers and guns.
Israel is only a fgriend of the US as long as the checks keep coming in. I **** umm lets arm the palestinians to the same degree we aided the Iraelis. The you cant whine about "terrorism" when the pals meat the Israelis with equal force.
Israel makes palestinian hate through its actions toward the Palestinian people. They deserve what they get. If the average Israeli citizen is concerned over terrorist then they would elect a government who has a general interest in an independent Palestine.
Driving bulldozers through the home of Palestinians, rounding them up and expelling them with no trial, responding to rock throwing with machines guns and all the current tactics used by the Israeli war criminals wont stop "terrorism" It will ensure it continues forever.
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Zionism is on par with Nazism.
No it's not. Zionism, at it's worst, seeks to displace the Palestinians to create a Jewish state, not exterminate them.
LOL I think this country always has and always will belong to the AMERICAN INDIAN!
It certainly used to, but it doesn't now. Turning it over to the American Indians now would disposses 250 million people, who aren't personally responsible for what befell the American Indians.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
No it's not. Zionism, at it's worst, seeks to displace the Palestinians to create a Jewish state, not exterminate them.
Displace at all costs. Extermination if necessary.
Your arguement was also used by the NAZI. The only reason Israel is not murdering Palestinians on the scale the Nazis did is because it would leak to the rest of the world inmediately.
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I have heard Zionist call for the extermination of the palestinians. They want living space for their "chosen few" just because they havent be able to practice extermination doesnt mean they are "against" it.
Nazism arrived at a "final solution" to the jewish question in Europe after exploring many other means to remove them.
Do you think if Sharon could get away with it he would exterminate as many palestinians as possible?
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Originally posted by Batz
Do you think if Sharon could get away with it he would exterminate as many palestinians as possible?
No, do you think Saddam could get away with opening daycare centers all over the United States?
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No, do you think Saddam could get away with opening daycare centers all over the United States?
Your attempt at being cute aside Sharon is war criminal look it up.
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Zionism does not address Arabs at all. It ignores them, and their needs.
Zionism is more like the American "manifest destiny" doctrine. The purpose isn't to eradicate the Arabs, or even move them out of the way, the purpose is to settle the territory of Israel.
Nazism saw Jews themselves as a problem. Whilst there was some attempt to simply displace them, it wasn't because they were in the way, and preventing German expansion. The Jews themselves were percieved as the problem.
If there were 10 million Jews and 1 million Palestinians, Israel would have given them citizenship long ago, and the place would be peaceful now.
For Zionism, the goal is to get the land. The problem is the Palestinians are in the way.
For Nazism, the goal was to get rid of the Jews. The problem was how best to do it.
That's a fundamental difference.
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Yeah huge fundamental difference, but in practice, it turns out to be quite similar.
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Only in the wording. Applying the 2 one can easily arrive at the same point.
No Nation is prepared to take displaced palestinians. Take the current situation back back 60 years and there very well could be "palestinian death camps". They arent dealing with a general "Arab" question. Not all Arabs are palestinian. For the longest time Jordan didnt want "palestinians" in Jordan.
The problem is to what to do with the "Palestinians" that currently reside on their "promised" land. I have read Zionists call for this and I think if the world wasnt watching Sharon would get right to it. That and a growing population of "non-Zionist" jews in Israel and around the world that can envision a future palestinian state.
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Originally posted by Batz
Your attempt at being cute aside Sharon is war criminal look it up.
Umm, he wasnt convicted.
Is OJ Simpson a murderer?
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Originally posted by Batz
No Nation is prepared to take displaced palestinians. Take the current situation back back 60 years and there very well could be "palestinian death camps". They arent dealing with a general "Arab" question. Not all Arabs are palestinian. For the longest time Jordan didnt want "palestinians" in Jordan.
The problem is to what to do with the "Palestinians" that currently reside on their "promised" land. I have read Zionists call for this and I think if the world wasnt watching Sharon would get right to it. That and a growing population of "non-Zionist" jews in Israel and around the world that can envision a future palestinian state.
Well if Israel wanted all the land back that the romans"displaced" them from, Jordan would be Israel too.
Israels next target?
I mean after exterminating all the palestines....
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Good point X2Lee
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if i were a palestinian, maybe i would strap a bomb to one of my kids and send him to martydom.... NOT...
cant take em as anything but savages...sorry
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There's very little fundamental difference in how the Nazis percieved the value of a Jewish life and how the Palestinians percieve the value of an Israeli Jewish life. The only difference being that in contemporary Israel, the Israelis have learned to take whatever measure neccesary to survive. In Germany, there was no organized resistance that saved the Jews from the Nazi plan of "racial cleansing".
And it's not just the Palestinians that pose a threat. It's every nation that surrounds Israel and loaths the state of Israel and it's people. The Palestinians happen to be the worst threat because they are terrorists that wage a constant war bent on the death of every Jew. At least the surrounding nations have pretty much given up attacking Israel (en-masse usually). It was after each of these wars that Israel gained most of it's territory. Territory to act as a buffer. Territory that many would have them give back.
Divine providence? I don't think Israel uses "divine providence" the way we did. Israel would be content to live in peace and be left alone. They have no desire to own Jordan, Syria, etc. "Divine providence" to the Israeli jew more likely entails Israel being the traditional land that the God of the Jews "deeded" them according to Jewish religion, history and law.
For those who talk of the unfair occupation of Israel for the last fifty years and the cruel way in which the Israelis police and control violence (and potential violence). It is an act of survival. I'm sure the Israeli Jews would be glad to return to a more peaceful homeland if they had one. This is their home. The only one they have. Before that was the diaspora. Returning to such isn't an option. And before the diaspora ... was Israel. Even before Israel was made the 20th century state it is now, Jews in the local vicinity suffered at the hands of the Palestinians. At least one major slaughter of the jews happened in the decade prior to Israel being declared a state ... and murders of Jews was quite commonplace ... with little done to investigate and right the wrong.
Photos of Palestinian kids running for thier lives in front of an Israeli tank make for great pro-Palestinian fluff. Is there the slightest chance that the children were told to go stand in the path of a tank until it got really close by their parents (holding their cameras and putting their child's safety in danger ... for the cause) ? Told to go throw some rocks at some armed Israeli soldiers that are expecting violence and are on edge by their religious or educational mentor (get those cameras ready)? From what I've seen of the radical Muslim mentality ... it's all too easy and common for them to sacrifice their children in an ongoing hate-war with the Israelis just to garner support from the world. And yet, if the Israelis act swiftly in response ... or take measures to reduce the violence ... then there's just more pictures of the evil Israelis "killing innocent Palestinian children" .... "just for the fun of it".
Zionism or the Palestinian vow to kill all of the Israeli Jews? How can one ridicule the former and support the latter without coming out a total hypocrite?
Originally posted by Nashwan
Zionism does not address Arabs at all. It ignores them, and their needs.
Zionism is more like the American "manifest destiny" doctrine. The purpose isn't to eradicate the Arabs, or even move them out of the way, the purpose is to settle the territory of Israel.
Nazism saw Jews themselves as a problem. Whilst there was some attempt to simply displace them, it wasn't because they were in the way, and preventing German expansion. The Jews themselves were percieved as the problem.
If there were 10 million Jews and 1 million Palestinians, Israel would have given them citizenship long ago, and the place would be peaceful now.
For Zionism, the goal is to get the land. The problem is the Palestinians are in the way.
For Nazism, the goal was to get rid of the Jews. The problem was how best to do it.
That's a fundamental difference.
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Umm, he wasnt convicted.
Is OJ Simpson a murderer?
again you are trying to be cute. It doesnt matter if hes convicted hes still a war criminal. The next time hes in Europe I am sure it will get straightened out.
Well if Israel wanted all the land back that the romans"displaced" them from, Jordan would be Israel too.
Israels next target?
I mean after exterminating all the palestines....
You need to read a history book. The Romans didnt displace people hey installed a provential governor backed by roman legions and demanded tax revenue. The Jews still owned their land and organized the government. Jews were a part of the Roman bureaucracy through out the Roman empire.
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cant take em as anything but savages...sorry
this kind of mentality breeds terrorists.
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Originally posted by Rude
Can you have a constructive discussion with terrorists who are bent on your destruction? Has Arafat really represented the needs of his people over these many years?
Again, like in so many instances throughout history, the common man suffers while the leadership serves it's own interests.
The only thing Clinton did which I give him credit for, is brought the two nations to a point where peace would have had a running start....who spoiled that chance for the Palestinians?
who spoiled that chance?? a Jew from brooklyn walked into a mosque in jerusalem and gunned down about 20 praying moslems.
rat bastard.
where is he now?
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There's very little fundamental difference in how the Nazis percieved the value of a Jewish life and how the Palestinians percieve the value of an Israeli Jewish life.
No you have it backwards, Zionist place no value on palestinian lives. Thats the problem.
The History of the Jews is not an excuse for their treatment of the Palestinians. 1 jewish life is of no more value the 1 palestinian life. Securing the right for the State of Israel to exists is no excuse for the oppressing and ill treatment of Palestinians.
It doesnt matter why "those kids" are in front of those tanks. You still wouldnt respond to children throwing rocks with machine gun fire. Or Bulldoze an entire block because a "suspected terrorists" mother once lived in the neighborhood.
Israel gets what it deserves. The US ought to back the palestinians to the same degree as it did Israel. Then you wont be concerned with nail bombers.
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to think either side is morally superior to the other is a joke. like i said before it dosnt matter who started the terrorism the only way to stop it is to let them have a country where they can be considered a citizen.
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Cut it off.
every freaking dime.
not one cent of aid to ANY nation.
not ONE loan guarentee.
ANYWHERE.
TO ANY NATION.
Untill they provide humanitarian GUARENTEES, comply with UN directives and resolutions, and PROVE they intend to work for peace and accomodation internally, and externally.
ALL NATIONS.
cut the freakin money off.
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Actually there's more to it than that.
"The first time the name (Palestine) was used was in 70 CE when the Romans committed genocide against the Jews, smashed the Temple and declared the land of Israel would be no more. From then on, the Romans promised, it would be known as Palestine. The name was derived from the Philistines, a Goliathian people conquered by the Jews centuries earlier. It was a way for the Romans to add insult to injury. They also tried to change the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but that had even less staying power.
"Palestine has never existed - before or since - as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland.
- Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist, editor and CEO of WorldNetDaily
The name "Palestine", from the Greek Palaistina, originally from the Hebrew Pleshet (Land of the Philistines): a small coastal strip north east of Egypt, also called Philistia. The Roman term "Syria Palaestina" in the 2nd century BCE referred to the southern third of the province of Syria, including the former Judea. The name "Palestine" was revived as an official title when the British were granted a mandate after World War I.
- Encyclopaedia Britanica ill, Micropaedia, vol. Vll, "Palestine."
A common misperception is that the Jews were forced into the diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 A.D. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years. A national language and a distinct civilization have been maintained.
Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in Palestine continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.
Many Jews were massacred by the Crusaders during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century - years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement - more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.
Although the expulsions of Jews after AD 70 and 135 were massive, devotion to the Land of Israel caused some to linger just outside the borders, wait for quieter times and keep coming back. One of the so-called Early Church Fathers, Origen, during his stay in the Holy Land from AD 231-254, observed that the Jews were still a majority in the Land at that time. After the Roman Empire embraced Christianity in the fourth century, a systematic dispersal of the remaining Jews began. However, between AD 614-617, the Jews actually controlled large parts of the Land.
Consequently, the population of the Land was a "quilt" of minorities when the Arabs acquired it in their conquest of Byzantine Syria in AD 640. This quilt of people whose Land was dubbed "Palestine" by Imperial Rome was composed of Jews, Samaritans, dissident-Christians and the largest grouping - Syrian Orthodox Christians - none of whom were Arabs.
Although the Arabs ruled the Land from AD 640 to AD 1099, it is questionable that they ever became the majority of the population. The historian James Parker wrote:
"During the first century after the Arab conquest [AD 670-740], the caliph and governors of Syria and the Land [Palestine] ruled entirely over Christian and Jewish subjects. Apart from the Bedouin in the earliest days, the only Arabs west of the Jordan...were the garrisons."
In AD 985 the Arab writer Muqaddasi complained about the large majority Jewish population in Jerusalem and added, "The mosque is empty of worshippers..." Although Al-Hakim, Caliph of the Arab Empire (AD 996-1021), ordered all non-Muslims in Syria and the area called Palestine to convert to Islam or be expelled, he later rescinded some of the restrictions and so the Arabs remained a minority.
The noted Arab historian Dr. Philip Hitti observed that after almost four centuries after the Arab conquest (about AD 1070), the Christians (non-Arabs) in Syria, including Palestine, were still fully as numerous as the Muslims and that the Muslims were by no means all Arab.
The Crusader rule (AD 1099-1291) in the Land was followed by the non-Arab Muslim rule of the Mamelukes (AD 1291-1517). The Arab historian Hitti observed that there was a large exodus of Arabs during this period. The Arab historian Ibu Khaldun wrote in AD 1377, "Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel extended over 1400 years...It was the Jews who implanted the culture and customs of the permanent settlement."
Nearly 300 years after the Arab rule in the Land, the noted Arab historian Khaldun (called one of the greatest historians of all time by Arnold Toynbee) observed that the Land still was permeated with Jewish culture and customs. In AD 1400, nearly 300 years after Arab rule, there was still no evidence of Palestinian roots or established culture.
During the period of the Mamelukes as a consequence of the Black Plague, the population of the Land west of the Jordan River dwindled down to 140,000 to 150,000 Muslims, Christians and Jews. After the Turkish conquest in 1517 a census for tax purposes tabulated 49,181 heads of families and single men liable to tax. Professor Roberto Bacchi calculated that in the years 1553-1554 there were 205,000 Muslims, Christians and Jews.
From his travels in 1785, Francois Comte de Volney's figures would leave less than 200,000 for the total population of the land of Palestine. Both Dr. Philip K. Hitti and Alfred Bonni agree that the total population was less than 200,000 in AD 1800. Some estimate the total population of the Land at 150,000 by 1850. This total population would include Jews, Christians and Arabs.
Then Jewish funds started to flow into the Land by 1856 when Sir Moses Montefiore purchased Land outside of Jerusalem to teach agriculture to the Jews in the Land. From about 1878, Edmond de Rothschild began to actually finance the establishment of Jewish agricultural colonies. At this time in history, an uninterrupted stream of Jewish funds and Jewish immigration commenced to pour into Palestine. This influx of resources resulted in an economic upswing that attracted Arabs from surrounding countries.
Since the Land was at that time under Turkish Muslim rule, Arabs throughout the Middle East had unrestricted access to Palestine. By 1918 the Arab population increased to 560,000. In spite of restrictions on Jewish immigration, Jews and Arabs continued to pour into the Land until the birth of the State of Israel in 1948. Clearly, Jewish financial investments and immigration - together with laborious cultivation of the land - had put the Land of Israel on the economic map.
...The Jews lived in the Land of Israel for seventeen hundred years virtually uninterrupted until the Roman destruction of its national polity in AD 70. At this point, Israel's population of over two and one-half million was abruptly decimated by massive slaughter and expulsion. But as late as AD 617, Jews controlled Jerusalem and a large portion of the Land. After that time, even though Arabs conquered the Land, they were only a minority. Then through the centuries of Christian Crusader rule and the Mameluke period, the Land was still dominated by Jewish culture and customs until AD 1400 even though the Arabs eventually became a small majority.
- Bible Students Congregation of New Brunswick
Originally posted by Batz
You need to read a history book. The Romans didnt displace people hey installed a provential governor backed by roman legions and demanded tax revenue. The Jews still owned their land and organized the government. Jews were a part of the Roman bureaucracy through out the Roman empire.
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How in the world does that "have it backwards"? Did you not read the last line? Are you really trying to tell me that the Palestinians respect the lives of the Israelis more than the Israelis respect the lives of the Palestinians and therefore all the blame rests on the Israelis? Are you really expecting me to ignore the fact that the PLO is dedicated to the total genocide of the Jews in the Middle East? Get real.
And yes .. it does make all the difference in the world as to how those kids got in front of the tank and who talked them into doing that and other acts that place their lives in mortal jeopardy. The tank could be heading to any location for any reason and there probably would have been Palestinian kids in place for a photo op. And you can blame the skittish Israeli on patrol all you want but don't go feeding me bs that the parents, teachers and religious "mentors" of those kids aren't purposefully endangering their lives just to win over your bleeding heart. It seems to have worked all too well. :rolleyes:
And the U.S. has been working on peace and an equitable solution between the Palestinians and the Israelis for the last thirty years. Where have you been? :p
Originally posted by Batz
No you have it backwards, Zionist place no value on palestinian lives. Thats the problem.
The History of the Jews is not an excuse for their treatment of the Palestinians. 1 jewish life is of no more value the 1 palestinian life. Securing the right for the State of Israel to exists is no excuse for the oppressing and ill treatment of Palestinians.
It doesnt matter why "those kids" are in front of those tanks. You still wouldnt respond to children throwing rocks with machine gun fire. Or Bulldoze an entire block because a "suspected terrorists" mother once lived in the neighborhood.
Israel gets what it deserves. The US ought to back the palestinians to the same degree as it did Israel. Then you wont be concerned with nail bombers.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Despite its warlike nature israel is at heart a liberal western democracy, the public and the USA would not support tanks running over masses of gandhi style unarmed protestors day after day - but only if ALL palesteninans agreed to stop the terror.
I agree with you Grunherz (surprised? ;) )
There are Palestinians who are willing to die to kill Jews, but there are none who are willing to die in front of a tank for his country.
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First your history lesson is wrong the Romans had control of the area before the first Jewish Revolt 64-66 CE. Gessius Florus the prefect at the time was said to be corrupt and "insighted" the Jews to revolt. The "genocide" you claim in 70ce was a continuation in putting down that revolt.
Jerusalem and the Jewish populations in Judaea had factioned political alliances. Under the rule of the last prefect, Gessius Florus (64-66CE), the different factions united in an effort to revolt against the Roman forces in Jerusalem. Together, they managed to defeat Roman garrisons in and around Jerusalem, thus sending shock waved throughout the Roman Empire. Mass killing of Jews occurred in cities throughout the east, including around 20,000 Jews were killed in Caesarea and around 10,000 in Damascus. Vespasian was ordered by Nero to stop the revolt and by mid 68CE he had managed to suppress Palestine. Two outlets of Jewish resistance remained, a group of revolutionaries at Masada, and the city of Jerusalem. By the summer of 70CE vespasian's son Titus defeated the rebels at Jerusalem, destroyed the city, and sent thousands of Jews into despora.
The Romans didnt just turn up in Palestine and start killing Jews and stealing their land. They had set admintrative and military posts and used Jewish Elders as part of that administration.
You seem to think it matters what palestinians think of the Jews. It doesnt. Outside a few nail bombers blowing themselves up Israel has complete control. The Zionist have looked to expand their living ever since Israel became a state. Also Israel became a state right on the heels of a wave of Zionist terrorists attack that go way beyond what the any extremist palestinian has pulled off.
As for kids and tanks the Zionist use those kids and what ever reasons those kids are "in front of those tanks" to kill them. If the Zionist wanted peace then they wouldnt bulldoze palestinian homes, displace the resident then build Jewish settlements on the "freed up" land.
The fact those kids need no incitement. They can see their fathers rounded up, their brothers killed and their mothers crying. They know what feels like to have no rights and no prospect of decent future. So they pick a rock through it at a tank. Thats all the reasons the Zionists need to machine gun them down.
The US has been playing lip service to the idea of peace in that region. But its not until recently that the US has back an equitable Palestinian state. Where have you been? The US has been one sided in its dealings in that region.
So yes you have backwards. The Jews in that region dont have any more "right" to exist then the palestinians.
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Originally posted by Batz
First your history lesson is wrong the Romans had control of the area before the first Jewish Revolt 64-66 CE. Gessius Florus the prefect at the time was said to be corrupt and "insighted" (incited) the Jews to revolt. The "genocide" you claim in 70ce was a continuation in putting down that revolt.
No, my "history lesson" (sources quoted) is just fine. Nothing in it disputes the Roman control of the area prior to the revolt. The genocide was indeed a continuation. Why the "quote-unquote" and the "you claim"? Is there a variant to this you wish to reveal?
The Romans didnt just turn up in Palestine and start killing Jews and stealing their land. They had set admintrative and military posts and used Jewish Elders as part of that administration.
Again ... where was it mentioned otherwise?
You seem to think it matters what palestinians think of the Jews. It doesnt.
Yes it does. Their "death to the Jews at all cost" attitude is very much at the heart of the problem. Your choosing to ignore that part of it while exhibiting righteous indignation and claiming that the Palestinian children aren't brainwashed from birth by the very people that should be concerned with their welfare into being mass murderers for the cause smacks of hypocrisy.
Outside a few nail bombers blowing themselves up Israel has complete control. The Zionist have looked to expand their living ever since Israel became a state. Also Israel became a state right on the heels of a wave of Zionist terrorists attack that go way beyond what the any extremist palestinian has pulled off.
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Israel needs complete control. If it didn't have it there would be no Israel. If you believe otherwise then you are deluded. And I'll be glad to see your sources about the "Zionist terrorist attacks that go way beyond what any extremist palestinian has pulled off." posted.
As for kids and tanks the Zionist use those kids and what ever reasons those kids are "in front of those tanks" to kill them. If the Zionist wanted peace then they wouldnt bulldoze palestinian homes, displace the resident then build Jewish settlements on the "freed up" land.
The Zionists use those kids to kill them? What kind of twisted malarkey is this? You really expect me to believe that the "Zionists" arranged to have those kids and a camera set up for that wonderful photo op? That's plain goofy. And I tell ya what - if you had a terrorist living across town and he visited your kid's school and blew up the cafeteria ... and his family rejoiced and honored his sacrifice ... I kinda doubt you'd be enraged about that family being displaced. But, of course, you're gonna dispute this.
The fact those kids need no incitement. They can see their fathers rounded up, their brothers killed and their mothers crying. They know what feels like to have no rights and no prospect of decent future. So they pick a rock through it at a tank. Thats all the reasons the Zionists need to machine gun them down.
They also hear their parents, teachers and religious "mentors" preach and teach Jihad and "sacrificial terrorism". If I get gunned down in a police shoot out here in the states (right or wrong, innocent bystander or not), I guarantee you my kids aren't gonna throw rocks at every police cruiser that passes by or strap a bomb to themselves and walk into a daycare center that happens to have a couple of police officer's families as clients. It's not justified. It's not better than "the evil Zionists'. You are being a hypocrit.
The US has been playing lip service to the idea of peace in that region. But its not until recently that the US has back an equitable Palestinian state. Where have you been? The US has been one sided in its dealings in that region.
[/b]
And how did Arrafat react? You're either being played or playing yourself.
So yes you have backwards. The Jews in that region dont have any more "right" to exist then the palestinians.
Are you still arriving at that conclusion? No, bucko. It's you that's convinced one side has more right than another. I'm the one that just doesn't have the bleeding heart sympathy for a culture and community that has no respect for human life. It's own or others. If both sides are truly this way (as you claim) ... then I'd feel the same both ways. If the Israeli's were as whacked in the head as the Palestinians are ... there would be no Palestinians left. Hey - you said it yourself. They have total control.
But read into whatever what you want. You obviously already do. Just don't expect me to buy into it just because you've gone fanatical. ;)
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both sides have forfited the right to acendancy.
israel must comply with the UN resolutions, by force if necessary.
a DMZ between 'em; blue helmets in control of ALL religious sites. bulldoze all settlements, cut off all aid to israel and enforce the oslo accords.
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Originally posted by Batz
Israel gets what it deserves. The US ought to back the palestinians to the same degree as it did Israel. Then you wont be concerned with nail bombers.
And you sir are an ARSE!!
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Originally posted by Nashwan
What, things like "Israeli tank fires shell at children on bikes breaking curfew, killing four."
[/b]
EXACTLY. Only if you have the details behind each casualty you can form some sort of opinion on those 800 innocents. If you just leave the number out there without any explanation, it becomes horribly misleading, and frankly...wrong.
Or the Israeli government that is using the IDF to enforce security whilst it colonises Palestinian's lands blah blah blah
[/b]
We've been over that subject a thousand times, do you really want to go there again?
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Originally posted by Batz
Iron and Steve you maybe pro-Zionist but denying the number palestinians killed is like denying the holocaust. Theres to many facts to prove other wise.
wtf...I'm a "pro-zionist" now?
Seriously, you really should stop using terms like that out of context like that...it gives the wrong impression of you.
If you look at my post again, you will see that I'm not denying the numbers, I am saying that the numbers doesnt say anything because I know that the vast majority of those casualties are collateral damage or honest misstakes/tragedies. Much like the Iraqi minivan at the checkpoint last night. A horrible tragedy, 7 civilians dead, but no blame falls on the US troops because they thought they were under attack and they did everything they could to stop it before opening fire.
Surely you agree there is a difference between someone shooting a civilian in cold blood, and someone dropping a bomb on a terrorist and that bomb also happens to kill an innocent bystander.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Hortlund, to get back to the thread title, what do you mean by "prevail"?
Survive.
(do try to remember who they are fighting against)
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The only reason Israel is not murdering Palestinians on the scale the Nazis did is because it would leak to the rest of the world inmediately.
Animal..thats silly.
Hangtime. I aggree totaly on the aid thing. Please. Just dont cut of Cable TV to Canada.
2-3billion a year. Thats cheap. The "democracy" in Iraq will cost 20 billion per year at least.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
That's the problem, they aren't allowed any state, not a Palestinian one or to be part of Israel.
They cant handle a state, PA proved that beyond any doubt. You'd just be setting up Iraq2 or Somalia2 in the middle of Israel...no thanks.
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if ever the Palestinian and the Isrealy can't forgot their history and do what the German and French have done it would be a great step in direction of peace....
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Originally posted by Arlo Actually there's more to it than that
I have to give you KUDO's Arlo, you post in this thread giving the history lesson in the middle east was most excellent. My favorite part were the bits of information you gave that were provided by Arab academics, refrenced of course.
Ok. I am going to take this slow for some of you.
You were just given a basic history lesson.
It was well thought out and refrenced.
If you dispute Arlo, look up his refrences, and provide some that dispute HIS facts.
THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART- Arlo quoted some people of great quality. They are pretty much universally aknowledged as "knowing what they are talking about" and worthy of paying attention to. IF you dig out quotes/refrences to refute Arlo, make sure it's worth a damn! Don't copy and paste some garbage being fed to you by sources we all KNOW are not reliable. Let's see you quote people that are NOT aknowledged as "nut job fringe elements".
What we have here is history, well known, and in general agreed to history. If you do not like this much agreed on version of history, step back and wonder why? Is it because your are so learned, and know so much more than the top academics of this field of study? If that is so please start publishing your work so we can all bask in your wonderfulness, and your brilliant insight on history will be shared and preserved for postarity. Is it because you wish to change historty in order to justiy your own opinions and actions maby? OR is it some flaw in your character or genetic make up that causes you to want two plus two to equal three?
Arlo, if I can be so humble as to make a request. For the benefit of those on these boards who need it, would you maby explain how Israel was created after WWII (the whole England gave the Arab's their heavy weapons and military bases), and why they now hold these settlements that are much disputed? (6 day war etc) I myself would attempt it, but I tend to slant things a bit, and would love to hear if our versions of history match. If you chose not to I would understand.
Again, much respect my friend, and a big <> to ARLO
+Lute
III/JG26 9ST WM's
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Thanks Arlo for the quotes, very interesting.
IMHO the problem is not in who was there first, problem is mainly in evolution (no, not THAT one, Hotrlund ;) ).
I know, someone will jump on the chair for what i am going to say, but on this issue there's something that the world can still learn from the "old continent", the Europe.
Not entirely, like in the balkans, but almost the entire Europe have learned a lesson, a lesson thet costed many many lives along the centuries.
The top of this lesson was during the 2 World War, that both costed something near 60 millions lifes (including US sacrifice)
With that lesson we learned that "the WAR does'nt solve nothing", "violence does'nt solve problems", it's a lesson that still have to be completely assimilated, but is a lesson that have helped to put aside the various religious/ethnic/politic hate forces, and try a new (old) way: the compromise
This has been the force that, after the original economic reasons, continue to push for the formation of a real Europe Community, and, maybe, a new European State.
And, if you have forgot it, was the reason behind the formation of the ONU, to have some place where the constrast cut have been solved in peace with the help of the other nations.
But not every people in the world have learned the same lesson, and seem that every people want to pay personally to learn it.
Sad.
As Toad and Hangtime (for different reasons), it's time to stop to help one of the parties just because he is friendly, helpfull, and willing to spent our help in our industries, or accepting to open some mcdonald and drink coke (with all the consequent implications), and start to say :
you want to be part of our world community?
get rid of your extremisms, of your hate, AND GROW UP!
Or keep killing each other, but STAY THE HELL OUT OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY, BOTH OF YOU!.
Seem strange, but this is the best way to fight terrorism, instead of double standards, and bombing a country to get rid of a mad SOB of a dictator, and letting the hate to continue to grow.
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I've never commented on anything in this board, but I'm amazed how anyone who watched CNN a couple of times and read a newspaper, already has established a strong oppinion about the situation in the middle-east (and the solutions).
what I read on this board is just bits and bytes of information all confused, inacurate and mixed up. Ofcourse each is entitled to his own oppinion.
As a jew, Israeli, ex-officer in the IDF (which makes me a war criminal, a nazi and crusifier of crist) I can only tell you that you have absolutly no friggin' idea about whats going on - both the pro-israelies and the pro-palestinians guys.
I've seen too many incidents, was part of too many things, was shot at and was too close to exploding buses just enough to tell you this:
"you cannot base any views on reports in the media. they tell stories, not news."
and I mean ANY media. not Israeli, not arab not international. It's just a load of crap being broadcasted / printed to entertain the audience and make money for the owners.
The truth is WAY too complicated obscured and unpleasent for people to understant while they read their evening paper or watching the news as they are sitting in their comfy sofa.
And I guess you can generalize the above to the rest of the world - US/Iraq war for an instance.
Thinking about it again. I find it even hilarious.
Keep the talking heads talking.
Bozon
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Originally posted by Batz
again you are trying to be cute. It doesnt matter if hes convicted hes still a war criminal. The next time hes in Europe I am sure it will get straightened out.
You need to read a history book. The Romans didnt displace people hey installed a provential governor backed by roman legions and demanded tax revenue. The Jews still owned their land and organized the government. Jews were a part of the Roman bureaucracy through out the Roman empire.
Ya know you can word it how you like the fact remains, Israel was taken from the Jews and renamed Palistine.
Millions of Jews were displaced or left the tyranny of rome.
There land was taken.
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Originally posted by Batz
again you are trying to be cute. It doesnt matter if hes convicted hes still a war criminal. The next time hes in Europe I am sure it will get straightened out.
OK I didnt know you were still a war criminal even before you are proven guilty, I guess thats just the American in me.
And if you mean the belgian courts straightining it out they ruled that he was unable to be tried.
unless you mean a lynch mob?
They are after him already.
Maybe he should move to miami....
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So, Bozon, since (and I really agree) you are more entitled of us, BS feeded TV-drinkers (and I am not ironic here), I ask you to share some experience, and to express your opinion.
I will be very happy to ask some questions, expecially to understand better the REAL situation, and interested to ear your view of the facts.
Please, be patient with the flaming a****les, and savants-wannabe (include me in one or both of the types, if you want), and share some of your thoughts and experiences, to help us to better understand your part of the world.
I really do care to understand and learn.
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Taken from Hitech's sticky post:
Laughing at the death of any human being is not acceptable behavior.
This certainly qualifies as bad taste.
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all this whineing about what took place 2000 years ago is a joke. We are not even 100 percent sure it even happened or what happened. Plus the fact the jews were displaced by an army that conquered them, the romans. The Palistinians took that land fair and square 1000's of years ago get over it. Having the UN and US come in and tell them it is now Isreal and belongs to a different group of people basicly because we wanted an ally in the middile east was just poor judgment morally. If we go on the basis that "it used to belong to the jews" then hell why dont we have a UN resolution giving texas and most of the southwest back to mexico.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Having the UN and US come in and tell them it is now Isreal... basicly because we wanted an ally in the middile east was just poor judgment morally.
I think if you look at the discussions about Palestine around the end of the war, the decision was not based on "wanting an ally in the ME".
The decision was made because of the genocide the Jews suffered in Europe. There was strong feeling to give them a homeland for that reason.
Further, we already HAD allies in the ME at the time.
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naw that british were bailing out of there in the 40's
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
then hell why dont we have a UN resolution giving texas and most of the southwest back to mexico.
News for ya, we are.
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Do you know what year Saudi Aramco was founded?
Check on who helped who down there during WW2... the years immediately prior to the creation of an independent Israel.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
who spoiled that chance?? a Jew from brooklyn walked into a mosque in jerusalem and gunned down about 20 praying moslems.
rat bastard.
where is he now?
Too bad he ran out of ammo.
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Too bad he ran out of ammo.
Just to be clear for people who don't know much about the incident, Baruch Goldstein walked in to a mosque in Hebron in 1994, and shot dead 29 unarmed people whilst they were praying. It was done in protest at the signing of the Oslo accords.
And rc51 obviously supports mass murder, based on ethnic lines. What does that make him?
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A complete and utter banana.
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Originally posted by rc51
Too bad he ran out of ammo.
Say bye-bye to this BBS.
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See what I meant Nashwan therw plenty lke rc51 out there that would just as well exterminate the palestinians..
Again ... where was it mentioned otherwise?
Arlo you cut n pasted your "history lesson" in reply to my challenge to xlee who implied the Romans did the samething the Zionists are doing to the palestinians, as if that made it right.
You cut n pasted stuff out context but I presume you reply was to show that the Romans did that. After all you quoted me. The Romans ruthlessly put down a rebelion. Just like they had done in difference provinces. Theres was nothing unique about what they did in 70ce. When Jerusalem was sacked many jews fled out of fear. Then muslims and arabs over centuries moved in. There were still Jews in Palestine, some very helpful to the romans even after the 64-68ce revolt.
If you werent cuttin' n' pastin' that lesson to disprove what I said then why paste it?
Israel has made peace with the with most of its neighbors and pacified lebannon to a degree. The Zionist arent pushing their borders back to create a buffer zone between their enemies. They are building settlement in areas they have occuppied which were never a part of Israel at its creation. They continue bulldoze palestinians homes, build settlements on the land occupied and deny any semblence of basic human rights to those palestinians under their control.
The fact is that Israel kills more palestinian civilians the suicide nail bombers do Israelis.
You cant hardly expect a child whos father was rounded up, whos brother or cousin or uncle was killed by Israelis to go through life smiling at his plight. He will strike with the tools he has. He is already properly motivated way before religion and or other influences send him over the edge.
Arlo do search on Zionist terror against Britain in the late 40s. The link has been posted many times by Nashwan and
others.
Yes you still have backwards, Palestinians have no way to fight back or destroy Israel. Any terrorism by palestinians has been in reponse to actions by Israel.
The decision was made because of the genocide the Jews suffered in Europe. There was strong feeling to give them a homeland for that reason.
Thats a bit simplistic toad.
Israel wasnt created out of the guilt of ww2, it certainly earned support because of it. There was a terror campaign by Zionist in palestine against the British who wanted out. Also wealthy jews from America and else where were smuggling in displaced persons (Jews) from Europe at the end of ww2. Basically because most other nations wouldnt take them. There was going to be a Jewish State whether the world wanted it or not.
The fact remains the palestinians are the ones suffering at the hands of Zionism. It has nothing to do with Israels right exist any more. Those wars were fought and Israel won. But for peace to come then Israel will have make the effort. Palestinian extremists will always use the desperate to carry out acts of terror. Get rid of desperation and allow those palestinians to have a sense of Future.
Bulldozing their homes, denial of basic rights, indiscriminate killing of the innocent will never bring peace.
So it goes back to either you exterminate all the palestinians like rc51 and Sharon would do. Or make changes necessary that allows a greater possibility for peace.
Wanted to get a reply in before it gets locked so I may have missed a bit but do you search on previous threads like this.
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Originally posted by flyingaround
Would you maybe explain how Israel was created after WWII (the whole England gave the Arab's their heavy weapons and military bases), and why they now hold these settlements that are much disputed? (6 day war etc)
Lute, I don't claim to be an expert .... I just dislike people who condenscendingly tell others to read a history book when they, themselves, apparently have tunnel vision when it comes to history. In this case ... anyone with a rudimentary Christian education knows of the Roman occupation of Israel before and during the life of Jesus of Nazareth. Few seem to realize, however, that the Romans did indeed attempt to "eradicate Israel" in the first century.
As far as contemporary Israeli history is concerned - I hold with the following:
Modern Israeli History[/size]
Dr. Kenneth Johnson
After Germany started WWI the Ottoman Empire entered the war on Germany's side. At the end of the war Britain was given the mandate over the middle east. Britain took control of the territory of the Ottoman empire dividing it into small states. Jordan was artificially created by Britain in 1920. Iraq became independent in 1932, and Kuwait in 1961. On November 2, 1917, Lord James Balfour, Foreign Secretary of the British government, wrote to Lord Rothschild, chairman of the British Zionist Federation, stating:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a home for the Jewish people. And will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object. It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine. Or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. I should be greatful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation."
This document became known as "The Balfour Declaration" General Edmund Allenby was assigned commander in chief of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force in 1917, he led an offensive against the Turkish armies in the Middle East, capturing Jerusalem without firing a shot on December 10, 1917. His crowning victory was at Megiddo (also called Armageddon) in September 1918. Shortly thereafter Turkey capitulated. In 1920 the Mandate over Palestine (both sides of the Jordan river) was given to England by the allied Council. In 1922 the British mandate over Palestine was ratified by the new League of Nations. England then divided Palestine (46,049 sq. miles) at the Jordan river. The eastern part was named Transjordan (77% of the land.) It was created to be a Palestinian Arab state. The western part retained the name of Palestine. (23% of the land.) It was created to be a home land for the Jews. In 1939-1945 Hitler, in his final solution to the world's problems, tried to destroy the Jewish people. By the end of the war over 6,000,000 Jews were dead. At the wars end Britain relinquishes the mandate to the United Nations. In 1948 the United Nations adopted a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. David Ben-Gurion became Israel's first prime minister who, eight hours before the formal end of the mandate, officially announced Israel's independence on May 14, 1948. Immediately the new state was attacked by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. Saudi Arabia then joined the war and a few days later so did Yemen. When the War of Independence was over Israel was in control of over 8,000 sq. miles (17%) instead of the 6,200 (13%) that the United Nations planned. Jerusalem remained a divided city with the western wall under control of the Arabs. In 1950 Transjordan annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem and in 1953 Transjordan changed its name to Jordan.
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In 1956 the Suez-Sinai War Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip, from which Arab guerrillas raided southern Israel and blockaded Israeli shipping in the Suez Canal and Gulf of Aqaba. Great Britain, France and Israel planned a joint military campaign against Egypt with the understanding that Israel would take the initiative by seizing the Sinai Peninsula. The war began on Oct. 29, after an announcement that the armies of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan were to be integrated under the Egyptian commander in chief. Israel's Operation Kadesh, commanded by Moshe Dayan, lasted less than a week; its forces reached the eastern bank of the Suez Canal in about 100 hours, seizing the Gaza Strip and nearly all the Sinai Peninsula. The Sinai operations were supplemented by an Anglo-French invasion of Egypt on November 5, giving the allies control of the northern sector of the Suez Canal. The war was halted by a UN General Assembly resolution calling for withdrawal from Egyptian territory. They also established a UNEF to replace the allied troops on the Egyptian side of the borders in Suez, Sinai, and Gaza.
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In May 1967, when Egyptian forces massed in Sinai, the UN ordered the UNEF to leave Sinai and Gaza. The Gulf of Aqaba was closed again to Israeli shipping. At the end of May, Egypt and Jordan signed a new defense pact placing Jordan's armed forces under Egyptian command. With war inevitable, Israeli Premier Levi ESHKOL, Minister of Defense Moshe Dayan, and Army Chief of Staff Yitzhak RABIN approved preemptive Israeli strikes at Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian, and Iraqi airfields on June 5, 1967. This began "the Six Day War." By the evening of June 6, Israel had destroyed the combat effectiveness of the major Arab air forces. Israel also swept into Sinai, reaching the Suez Canal and occupying most of the peninsula in less than four days. King Hussein of Jordan rejected an offer of neutrality and opened fire on Israeli forces in Jerusalem on June 5. But a lightning Israeli campaign placed all of Arab Jerusalem and the Jordanian West Bank in Israeli hands by June 8. As the war ended on the Jordanian and Egyptian fronts, Israel opened an attack on Syria in the north. In a little more than two days of fierce fighting, Syrian forces were driven from the Golan Heights, from which they had shelled Jewish settlements across the border. The Six-Day War ended on June 10. Jerusalem, no longer a divided city, was now under complete Jewish control for the first time since the Bar-Kochba rebellion in 127 AD. Israel now had control of another 2,700 sq. miles of Israel and 23,500 sq. miles of Sinai. Now Israel defensively reoccupied the Sinai, the Gaza Strip, Arab Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Golan heights. But the addition of more than 1,500,000 Palestinian Arabs to areas under Israeli control threatened internal security.
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1969 Yasir Arafat became head of the PLO, a terrorist group using guerrilla warfare attacks on Israeli settlements in Galilee, and by Israeli retaliatory raids into Lebanon. Egypt and Syria attacked on Oct. 6, 1973, pushing Israeli forces several miles behind the 1967 cease-fire lines. Known as the Yom Kipur War, Israel was thrown off guard, partly because the attack came on the high holy day. Although Israel recovered from the initial setback, it failed to regain all the territory lost in the first days of fighting. In counterattacks on the Egyptian front, Israel seized a major bridgehead behind the Egyptian lines on the west bank of the canal. In the north, Israel drove a wedge into the Syrian lines. After 18 days of fighting in the longest Arab-Israeli war since 1948, hostilities were again halted by the UN. The political phase of the 1973 war ended with disengagement agreements accepted by Israel, Egypt, and Syria. The agreements provided for Egyptian reoccupation of a strip of land in Sinai along the east bank of the Suez Canal and for Syrian control of a small area around the Golan Heights town of Kuneitra. UN forces were stationed on both fronts to oversee observance of the agreements.
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Under an Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty signed on Mar. 26, 1979, Israel returned the Sinai peninsula to Egypt. Also in 1979 Saddam Hussein took control of the Iraqi government. In 1981 Israel bombs an Iraqi nuclear plant to stop the development of nuclear weapons. In April 1982 Israel returned the last part of Sinai to Egypt.
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On June 6, 1982, Israel launched a full-scale invasion of Lebanon, "the Lebanese War," to destroy PLO bases there and to end the attacks across its borders. Meeting little resistance, Israeli commanders pushed northward, reaching the outskirts of Beirut within a week. Fighting with Syrian forces also erupted; nearly 80 Syrian MiGs and 19 missile batteries in the Bekaa Valley were destroyed without loss of a single Israeli plane. By the end of June, Israel had captured most of southern Lebanon and besieged PLO and Syrian forces in West Beirut. The siege ended through U.S. mediation in August, when Israel agreed to leave Beirut provided Syrian and PLO forces also withdrew. A multinational force from the United States and Western Europe supervised the Syrian and PLO evacuation. On September 15, after the assassination of Lebanese president-elect Bashir Gemayel, Israel reoccupied Beirut. Israel signed an agreement with Lebanon ending the state of war in May 1983, but Lebanon renounced the pact under Syrian pressure in March 1984. Public pressures in Israel led to the withdrawal of Israeli troops by June 1994.
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Originally posted by Batz
my challenge to xlee who implied the Romans did the samething the Zionists are doing to the palestinians, as if that made it right.
You missed my point, I was saying its Israels land.
And that rome took it from them. And altho they could take it ALL
back and fairly easily, they dont. When they received the land in 48 it was a wasteland. Israel has converted it to the most fertile
rich land in the Middle east. Its coveted by the arabs now , plus they have a hatred for thier jewish brothers, that goes back to thier roots in abraham.