Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Steve on March 31, 2003, 04:03:28 PM
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I took up a 262 late last night, one of the very rare times I've done so, and cruised at about 5k over to a base of ours(rooks) that was being attacked. As I approached the base, I came upon a fellow rook by the name of ts. ts was in a deck turnfight with a p38, over the water. I saw on the other side of the fight 2 low dots approaching. Dar showed they were not friendly. Realizing ts was about to get bounced into a 1 vs 3, I made a quick decision to make a pass at the low p38 he was fighting, hoping to free ts up, and then engage the 2 other bad guys, who were now ID'd as spits and closing fast. As I dove on the low 38, he evaded so I pulled up to find the most immediate threat of the 3 bogies. At that moment, ts came on range channel and said in a very commanding and rude tone, "Stay out, he's mine." Now normally, I'd ask my teammate if he was ok before busting a 1v1, but with enemies fast approaching, and me in a 262(inexperienced in it to boot), I had felt I needed to clear ts up or he would be in big trouble. Well after hearing this from ts, I said something like, "Uhhh ok ts, you can have the spits too." Sure enough, the spits bounced ts before he could put the 38 away. A low fight ensued with a rook pony joining the fray. The enemy p38 died eventually, whether to the rook pony or to ts I'm not sure. Sure enough ts was shot down as well. ts quickly got back on the radio and told me he would "remember that" for not helping him. I said, "Good, maybe next time you will remember your manners." He then got on me about trying to steal his kills. I guess I could have had a discussion with him about his need to improve his SA, but I figured it was pointless... damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.
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Did he sound like he was below the age of 21?
I always welcome someone to clear an airfield of enemy. I don't need kill scores. I've got enough perks to last me awhile. I just want to keep the Bish at bay!
By the way, let me tell you about the time I took a P-51 up, ran into a Bish 51, lost a flap, got into a high-speed stall, and was then accused of being a stick-stirring dweeb! :p
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Ya stick stirrin dweeb!!! Hey, do you have vox? Tried to talk to ya a couple times... wasting my breath?
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In TS's defense it sounds like your intensions could have been easily misunderstood Steve. 1v1 are so rare now days that they are like jewels to be treasured. I know TS to be an excellent stick so maybe a heads-up on VOX about the cons or harassing the spits with your 262 would have been as helpful as killing the P38.
BigWorm
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Yea, that was what I would have done as well. We are simulating war, this isn't medieval jousting here, you want to fly 1 vs 1 , HT has the DA just for you. For the record anyone and everyone is welcome to kill any enemy around me, there's plenty more where they came from.
Zazen
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Bigworm, Ideally, you're right on the money, but the spits were closing fast and I had little time to a: make the decision, b: the spits may have very well have been on ts before he had time to assess and answer, if he understood the circumstances.
Additionally, the spits were on the other side of the fight, I just didn't feel I could engage both spits with my 262 enough to keep them off ts. It's not like I could engage them in a turnfight to keep their attention.
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Hi Steve,
I think you made the wrong decision. You should have left TS with the P38 and taken care of the two enemy Spits inbound.
The immedite threat was not the enemy 38.
If a guys is enjoying a 1 on 1, best to not interfere.
The enemy spits needed to close the distance to TS in order to kill him and thus would have been vulnrable to your jet power quad 30mms.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yea, that was what I would have done as well. We are simulating war, this isn't medieval jousting here, you want to fly 1 vs 1 , HT has the DA just for you. For the record anyone and everyone is welcome to kill any enemy around me, there's plenty more where they came from.
Zazen
Same here I can get all the kills I want and I have so many perkies I will never use them all. However I have some deaths I could do with out. If you have a shot on a bog I am fighting kill him. Ill move on to the next. When I am fighting one and more come and no one helps even after I beg for help now that pisses me off.
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brendo, I appreicate your input. :)
Remember though, I made a pass at the 38 on my way to engage the spits. as I pulled up and over, the spits were merging w/ ts's fight. IMHO had I hit the 38, ts would have been more effectively able to engage the spits. There was no way for me to engage the spits at any distance from ts.
Ahhh well, I guess I'll never know.
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Steve,
If someone tells me to stay out, I stay out, and I would of made the same decision you did.
If he died after telling you to stay out, it is his problem.
Once someone told me he called "in" on a bad guy and did not want me to engage. Told me I wasn't playing by the rules. I remember his handle to this date and I have sat aloft and watched him die a few times. I didn't want to break his rules.
You can help me anytime, even if I look saddled up! :)
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Steve, you are right. Damned if you do......
The idea is to kill the enemy, not for ME to kill ALL the enemies. I welcome your support anytime, gents. All too often have I thought I was saddled up, only to overshoot and have the enemy on my six. This is a prime example of why you should always welcome a friendly to a fight. Just don't be RUDE, and cut the line!! Just because I'm not firing doesn't give you permission to jump in front of me. I may be waiting for the prime shot. If you feel the need anyway, at least announce you are coming in so I don't KS myself. Manners, boys, manners.
<>
Major MaNiaCaL
~*81st*~ Krewsaderz
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Anytime,
Anywhere,
Someone wants to join it and save my butt, fell free. Even if I don't need saving. Kill count, points, perks... I'm not good enough to worry about any of them. Won't ever be that good.
afool
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Originally posted by Steve
Ya stick stirrin dweeb!!! Hey, do you have vox? Tried to talk to ya a couple times... wasting my breath?
I used to have vox until I installed DirectX 9.0 and my soundcard choked. I've got a new card on order that should arrive in a few days. Until then, I fly with one hand and type with the other. Soundblaster Live 5.1 is old news as soon as the Turtle Beach card arrives.
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HEHE good post !!!! Steve you should of been flying your 51 and killed em all before they got to tz:D
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Hehe, bad post. You should've just let that one lie where it was and moved on. Posting this in here looking for justification for your kill steal attempt is in poor taste.
ts is a squadie of mine. A good guy and a dam good stick. I'm sure he's a bit out of practice as he's been out more than in in the last few months. His rl plane keeps conking out on him and he's having to fix it himself. Running back and forth from Anchorage to the boonies in Alaska to get it right.
I'd be allitle surly myself if I didn't get to fly all that much but when I do some jerkoff in a jet tries to steal my kill I've worked hard to set up. All just to help me out!
Why didn't you make a pass at those spits and see what developed? You said they were "coming in fast". How Fin fast is a 262? Naw, I think you got caught doin a dweebery and are now trying to justify it in your own mind.
I've had something similar happen on the utero map. I'm on the edge of a furball all saddled up on a La7 fixin to squeze off a burst in him when a 262 came screamin by and popped him. I'm less than 300 back from this La7. Almost kill shooterd myself. There were over 40 cons within 3k. Was he "saving me"? What did he say? Notadamthing. I called him on it and he finally said he was sorry, but hey, whats the dif right?
So whats your problem anyway? Why come here and post this? Feeling guilty? Or are you just scared he might come here first and call you a dweeb? Sorry, ts wouldn't do that. I would though.
I think you owe him an appology.
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Lizard, I feel your comments are WAY out of line...
If you wanna go one on one, that's why HT created a dueling arena, Steve was trying to bail your buddy out and turn a 3 on 1 into a 2 on 2
I highly encourage anyone to come in and clean an enemies clock if he's near me... I will never turn away any help!
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Lizard quote: "Why didn't you make a pass at those spits and see what developed? You said they were "coming in fast". How Fin fast is a 262? Naw, I think you got caught doin a dweebery and are now trying to justify it in your own mind. "
Lizard, the spits were a few seconds away from merging.. how "fast" they were was not really relevent. I could have merged HO with the spits... but I'm not gonna HO in any plane if I can avoid it. And an HO certainly wouldn't have tied up both spits. No, I still feel ts's best chance to win was for me to free him up so he could engage the spits. As for justifying it in my mind: I felt plenty justified when the spits arrived and ts still hadn't killed the 38. You seem to think I'm implying ts isn't a good stick or a nice guy.... I'm not saying either.. I don't know the guy. I am saying though, what I experienced.
Lizard quote: "I'd be allitle surly myself if I didn't get to fly all that much but when I do some jerkoff in a jet tries to steal my kill I've worked hard to set up. All just to help me out!"
Lizard, no problem buddy, next time I see you saddled up on one, two, or even five planes, I'll stay out.. I'd hate to steal one of your kills.
Lizard quote: "So whats your problem anyway? Why come here and post this? Feeling guilty? Or are you just scared he might come here first and call you a dweeb? Sorry, ts wouldn't do that. I would though. "
Actually, I just thought it was an interesting story.. a little anecdote to chat about with my fellow sim pilots. Thanks for contributing, nice chatting with you.
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Originally posted by Steve
It's not like I could engage them in a turnfight to keep their attention.
It's not that difficult to keep anyones attention when flying a 262 ;)
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Originally posted by Lizard3
ts is a squadie of mine. A good guy and a dam good stick.
I don't know about all this other whiney dribble stuff, but I had the fortune of tangling with TS couple times & can affirm the good stick part. First couple times, my big dumb mistake, got roped, not once but twice. Came back for more punishment, at the merge going about 350 in a typhoon figured would just fly by & separate. Was amazed at how fast he flipped that 38 around & was 500 on my 6. Was only like couple seconds. Would love to learn that trick. Anyway, to TS.
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ccvi.. I wouldn't know.. I rarely fly them.
Do you really think I could have completely occupied 2 spits that were 1000 feet over a teammate that had a bad guy hard on his 6? Well, maybe you could. You have a lot of experience in one, based on what you said... I'm not any good in a 262. Got in a 1v1 with one that night... some guy named Warkhawk handed me my arse. Guess I'll just stick to prop jobs.
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if a guy gets mouthy about stealing a kill then whines when he is left alone, that's a whine. if i am in a 262 i sure as hell am not going to tangle with two spits...at 5k. ts may be a good stick and good guy, but if i made a pass and then got told off, i would let him alone...can't read minds, ain't gonna try.
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Steve,
Why did you even bother to post this in the first place, did TS bruise your ego in such a way that you are looking for affirmation from the community?
I think your plan was flawed, btw. If TS was low E dealing with a P-38, then nailing it when the enemy Spits were entering icon range likely wouldn't have helped him much. As it was, he nailed the P38 ( you say it died and don't mention any other friendlies) and got jumped by the Spits in turn. The smart play would have been to evaluate TS situation and then turn your attention to the Spits. The Spits were more danger to everyone around, including yourself, so why not try and draw them off and bleed them out a bit of energy. The "perk-Dementia" in the MA is intense and at the first sign of your 262 they'd have likely forgotten all about their buddy in the P-38. As it was, TS must have killed the 38 before they got there anyway. The smart play would have been to evaluate TS to ensure he had the P38 bagged, then tie up the Spits while TS had an opportunity to rebuild his energy. Then gang up on the Spits. I figure since you had a 262 you had no intention of really mixing it up with the Spits and wanted TS as bait anyway. Best to keep your bait alive then so he can tie them up and you can slash through them with your 30mm.
-Soda
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Originally posted by BigGun
I don't know about all this other whiney dribble stuff, but I had the fortune of tangling with TS couple times & can affirm the good stick part.
I agree.
And Get over it.
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Originally posted by Steve
ccvi.. I wouldn't know.. I rarely fly them.
Do you really think I could have completely occupied 2 spits that were 1000 feet over a teammate that had a bad guy hard on his 6? Well, maybe you could. You have a lot of experience in one, based on what you said... I'm not any good in a 262. Got in a 1v1 with one that night... some guy named Warkhawk handed me my arse. Guess I'll just stick to prop jobs.
Me experienced in a 262? lol! :D :D
But I do know that every enemy you get closer to than 2000 yards will break off whatever goal he's currently pursuing and try to go after you. Should be enough to keep 2 Spits busy ;)
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Soda, thanks for your take on the scenario. I love your plane evals... wonderful stuff.. I personally appreciate you taking the time to not just eval the planes, but to actually type that all.
Soda quote:"Why did you even bother to post this in the first place, did TS bruise your ego in such a way that you are looking for affirmation from the community?"
I'm not really sure how ego had any part to play here, so I don't really understand your question. It appears as just another jab at me, much like your friend lizard.
Soda quote: "The "perk-Dementia" in the MA is intense and at the first sign of your 262 they'd have likely forgotten all about their buddy in the P-38."
You could be right there. Maybe it's just me but when in a multi target fight, I consider the 262 as one of the least threatening almost every time. I mean, all you have to do is keep tabs on it and evade if it targets you on a pass. Maybe I'm guilty of assuming the spit pilots didn't recognize that they had plenty of time to whack ts while I revved and came back
Soda quote: As it was, TS must have killed the 38 before they got there anyway.
No, as I've posted more than once:"....the spits arrived and ts still hadn't killed the 38."
Soda quote:"As it was, he nailed the P38 ( you say it died and don't mention any other friendlies)"
Actually in my original post I said: "A low fight ensued with a rook pony joining the fray. The enemy p38 died eventually, whether to the rook pony or to ts I'm not sure. "
So there was indeed another friendly there.
Soda quote: "I figure since you had a 262 you had no intention of really mixing it up with the Spits and wanted TS as bait anyway.
You're right, I didn't want to mix it up with the spits, thinking that was futile. I didn't intend to use ts as bait...hadn't thought of it to be honest. But I did feel ts was about to be in a tight spot and wanted to knock down bad guys as expediently as possible.
Soda quote:"I think your plan was flawed, btw.
You could be absolutely right, I have little experience in a 262.
Soda quote"...tie up the Spits while TS had an opportunity to rebuild his energy."
How? Although I don't intend to fly a 262 much, I'd like to know more about how to fly it.
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Originally posted by gofaster
I used to have vox until I installed DirectX 9.0 and my soundcard choked. I've got a new card on order that should arrive in a few days. Until then, I fly with one hand and type with the other. Soundblaster Live 5.1 is old news as soon as the Turtle Beach card arrives.
Uninstall DirectX 9 and reinstall DirectX 8.x.
ack-ack
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Lol Wldthing. I do not think ts is going to get over it. Remember, ts said, "I'll remember that."
I know you are suggestiong that I "get over it". I guess I'd have to be irked about something to get over it. I'm amused at the outcome of the original fight, but not really irked about anything. Don't worry Wldthing I DO know where you are coming from.
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Steve
I would have done the same thing you did. Try to kill the 38 and make it a 2-v-2 fight (you and ts) vs (enemy spits)
In a defense situation like you are describing, I believe it is better to kill the easiest one first especially if it can be done with a BnZ pass that will conserve energy.
In this case, you don't have time to tulips if ts had the advantage in the fight, or if he did, how close he was to killing that P38.
If the P38 had won the fight against TS, then you could have been left in a 3-v-1 (had you chose to intercept the spits directly and been sucked into a low E turn.
It's possible TS was about to win, but again, it doesn't sound like you had time to wait and see. In my eyes, if there are more than 2 aircraft in icon range on one side of the fight, there is no such thing as 1-v-1. So in your example 2 friendlies and 3 enemy, there is no 1-v-1 (even if it had been originally a 1-v-1 with just ts and the P38)
Personally, I like it when another friendly comes in to lend a hand when it is needed. The only time I get upset is when I am clearly (or about to) and someone starts shooting over my shoulder.
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Steve,
It was obvious you were irked, so much so that you came to the forum and posted about it for everyone to read. You seem to want people to pass judgement or something, or maybe you can explain why you bothered to post it in the first place if not? Was it to try and label TS or something, that would be silly, flown with him 100 times and wouldn't take your opinion on that. I would have thought that your conversation with TS would have been enough after the encounter, you could form your own opinion, and not have to share it with the whole board. I mean, unless you were there (which you happen to be), then how was anyone really supposed to comment in your post?
As for the response, entirely depends on the situation and what type of communication you had with TS when you engaged. I probably would have vox'd TS and not just dove in to engage. You can be pretty sure if anyone needs help and gets asked they will invite it. I likely would have tied up the Spits as long as I didn't get the impression that TS was in trouble with the P-38. The solo 262 is a bad Spit killer anyway, they will always simply try to HO you if you are the only person around. If you aren't the only person around, then it's great, all you have to do is come in at 500mph out of nowhere, cross icon range before their SA adjusts, and smack them.
-Soda
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Soda, I found the situation to be amusing. I have been trying to play nice but since you seem to want things to be antagonistic so be it, here goes: I thought it was pretty damned funny that one of your squaddies squeaked that I entered his fight, then ordered me out in a rude manner, got his arse waxed, then whined that I didn't help him. It strikes me as quite funny, not irksome get it?
It was quite satisfying to watch his rude arse go down in flames. And apparently, others on the board would have done the same thing I did. Now, ts may be in line for the nobel prize of great guys, I have no idea. I was just relating an amusing tale. If it bothers you because it shows one of your squaddies in what you perceive as a bad light... too damned bad. now go away.
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Amused...not irked. Everybody got that?
bowser
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lol
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Steve,
Finally the truth comes out and we aren't beating around the bush anymore. You decided to turn something that was a personal encounter into a public one by posting it on the BBS, as pointless as that may be....
Move-along, nothing to see here anymore......
-Soda
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Sounds like the whole lot of you need to fly in the Combat Theater. Lotsa 1vs1 in historically correct aircraft for the time frame.
This setup? No Spit, La-7 or NIK2 dweebs. :D
P-38/47/51's vs Bf109's & Fw190's.
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Soda, I never was beating around the bush. Apparently you just wanted it spelled out. It always was a public encounter... the chat certainly didn't take place privately. Happy hunting.
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if you're on the deck in a drawn-out 1 on 1 and there are other bogeys in sector...more than likely the cherry-pickin bastids gonna get ya before ya can win fight and accel away .....doesnt take but half a second to click esc twice during turnfight to see dar bar. no excuse fer it--unless ya dont mind tradin your plane for a single kill...I seem to find lotsa guys like that...
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The thing I love is that the guys that get cheesed off if they think you are going to join a 1v1 fight are usually the same guys who'll zoom in to break up other ppls 1v1s. I've given up caring about whether I should or shouldn't bounce a bad guy with a friendly already engaged. I usually will ask if help is needed and I won't join a conga line but "if it's red, it's dead" is my motto, especially if I'm in a good shooting position. There are no "property of" labels on any of the cons I've ever engaged in AH.
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I see your reputation is justly deserved.
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Waaaaaah, MOM, ts called me a kill stealer, doesn't have any manners and he hurt my feelings!
This is Steve's story, let him tell it like he wants to. I had my story all typed out, but what's the point?
Like WldThing said, "Get over it".
ts
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Dern ts. I was actually hoping to hear your version. Like maybe there was something I didn't know. So I could say something like: Oh watermelon ts, I am behaving like an ass, apologies to all.
I guess I'll have to live with my perspective.
Happy hunting.
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Steve, you had a chance to hear my version and discuss it with me after the event, and we did to some extent in the Main. Or you could have emailed me if you were really interested in my side of the story and we could of hashed it out privately, or even have tuned me privately in the Main.
Instead you chose to post it in the General Forum, because like Soda alluded(sp?) to, you were really interested in how the community reacted to the encounter, not my reasons for my reaction. Your post is totally worded for community reaction, not a discussion with me about my version of events.
I don't need to drag out my dirty laundry for all to see and definately don't feel the need for the community to tell me if I am right or wrong. As far as I'm concerned it' was between you and me.
Look at the number of post's I've made since joining back in the beta days. A whole 175+. This post I'm replying to is exactly why I don't spend much time even reading the General Forum, in fact I wouldn't even have read your post titled "Aar" if my squaddies hadn't pointed it out to me. Most post's in the General is just whining geared towrward community reaction about this and that and not even worth my time reading or replying to.
That's all I have to say about the whole thing. After reading your post in here I really don't feel the need to discuss it with you any further, we've both drawn conclusions about the other and I'm fine with that. I appologize if I hurt your feelings and I consider the matter done with.
ts
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ts.. I thought the story interesting, but as I reflect upon it, it was tasteless of me to mention you by name.. it really skewed my intent. I'm sorry... it was in bad taste.
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I would have buzzed the spits first because the first defensive move of a spit(95% of the time) is to peel off in another direction. This would have given TS just a bit more time to finish the 38. The spits will now be eying you( can't turn your back on a 262), and you should have the energy to keep them busy.
However, if it looked like TS was about to have his six saddled, I would have gave the 38 a buzz. People say things out of frustration(163 dweeb;) ) , so don't take it personally. Hinesight is always 20/20, you could have done the opposite and had the same result.
But always trying to help someone or calling out six calls is a good thing, don't let someone's words change that.