Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Martlet on April 01, 2003, 11:19:31 AM
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While Russia has described its actions in Chechnya as a tightly focused counter-terrorism operation, it has produced vast civilian casualties. The first phase of the conflict involved the bombing and shelling of dozens of towns and villages to dislodge Chechen fighters. Research by Human Rights Watch and other organizations showed the shelling and aerial bombardment by Russian forces to be highly indiscriminate and disproportionate, causing about 3,000 civilian casualties. Between December 1999 and February 2000, Russian forces committed massacres after taking control of three villages, killing at least 130 people. During this period they also rounded up thousands of people, mostly males whom they called "potential terrorists," took them to detention centers, and tortured them to compel confessions or testimony.
This cycle of abuse, well established before September 11, continues to this day. Hundreds of people have "disappeared" since that date after being taken into Russian custody. Increasingly, Russian forces conduct targeted night operations, in which masked troops raid particular homes, execute targeted individuals, or take them away, never to be seen again. In December 2002, Human Rights Watch documented nine extrajudicial executions and seventeen forced disappearances by Russian forces, most of which had taken place in the two months following a mass hostage taking in Moscow by armed Chechens. Among these cases was the November 29 killing of Malika Umazheva, who had previously been dismissed from her post as village administrator, had been an outspoken critic of Russian abuses, and a trusted source of information on abuses for human rights organizations. Masked Russian troops shot her at point-blank range during a night raid of her home. Among the many individuals who have "disappeared" is Issa Abumuslimov, a fifty-two-year-old engineer, whom Russian forces detained in a December 11 night raid of his home.
http://hrw.org/editorials/2003/chechnya030103.htm
We can all find propaganda to make the other side look bad.
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Martlet, "Human rights watch" is no more then a bunch of looneys supporting terrorists.
On March, 23, there was a referendum in Chechnya, with international inspectors and all things, to vote for a constituion. So now Chechnya has a Constitution. Not Shariat law.
Another wave of withdrawing troops from Chechnya started in February. Block-posts are being removed in Grozniy and other towns.
Putin promised an amnesty for terrorists who are not accused in crimes against humanity.
Everything is quiet. I hope that Arabs we were fighting for last two years already went to fight in Iraq, nothing to catch here.
The last thing to do is to catch Basayev. Or better simply kill him. With bayonet. Like a pig.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Martlet, "Human rights watch" is no more then a bunch of looneys supporting terrorists.
My point was that if you can find a trash rag point out all the horrible things that happens to/in/because of the US, I can find the same.
For every trash quote from a propaganda rag you post, I can find one too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1433802.stm
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Martlet, I think HRW bastards are my personal enemies. Remember their reaction on Nord-Ost hostages terrorist act.
Say whatever you want about Chechnya, Russians fight there to protect their land. Intervents in Iraq now faced same problems, and from what I saw on Euronews - they behave even worse then Russians on "zachistka".
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I think Russia has every right to do what it takes to protect their country. I am not a big fan of their position on the War with Iraq, but I am very supportive of their efforts to deal with those scumball terrorist bastards in Chechnya. Roll the t-90's in and mop em up!
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Originally posted by N1kPaz
I think Russia has every right to do what it takes to protect their country. I am not a big fan of their position on the War with Iraq, but I am very supportive of their efforts to deal with those scumball terrorist bastards in Chechnya. Roll the t-90's in and mop em up!
AHHHH, so it's ok to wipe out civilians as long as they're YOUR civilians. I get it now.
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Originally posted by N1kPaz
I think Russia has every right to do what it takes to protect their country. I am not a big fan of their position on the War with Iraq, but I am very supportive of their efforts to deal with those scumball terrorist bastards in Chechnya. Roll the t-90's in and mop em up!
I have to agree to a point. If Nebraska wanted to be it's own country it would never happen.
Chechnya is russian territory and they should secure it, and the sooner the better. Chechen warlords are saddam but ten times worse.
P.S. Think of them as bin laden, you can back them one minute, the next minute they take down a skyscraper.(or 2)
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Originally posted by Sixpence
I have to agree to a point. If Nebraska wanted to be it's own country it would never happen.
Chechnya is russian territory and they should secure it, and the sooner the better. Chechen warlords are saddam but ten times worse.
P.S. Think of them as bin laden, you can back them one minute, the next minute they take down a skyscraper.(or 2)
Chechnya has been trying to gain it's independence for almost 100 years. Understandable during the USSR existence, but after it's fall, why not be allowed to go it's own way, like so many other areas?
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Texas tried for independence too. If America falters, should they go their own way?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Texas tried for independence too. If America falters, should they go their own way?
Ask me again when the USA breaks up.
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Sixpence: If Nebraska wanted to be it's own country it would never happen.
Don't give away our little secret. The Constitution still formally reserves to The States the rights not specifically reserved for the federal government - including the right to seccede. Wink, wink. :rolleyes:
Chechnya is russian territory and they should secure it, and the sooner the better. Chechen warlords are saddam but ten times worse.
In fact, we should help russians subjugate the Finland which was a part of Russian Empire - however bad Saddam was, he did not come up with a swastika design like those finns. And the Poland - don't forget them too, back to Russia. And Ukraine never even had it's own state - back to Russia it goes as well.
And join Hungary back to Austria too.
miko
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That is not the point sir. And I hope the russians take care of business there. The chechen warlords make bin laden and saddam look like altar boys.
Miko, you beat my reply to martlet
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mar.. who?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
That is not the point sir. And I hope the russians take care of business there. The chechen warlords make bin laden and saddam look like altar boys.
Miko, you beat my reply to martlet
Noone said the chechen's were any better. The point was that for all the preaching about our actions in Iraq that the Russian contingency was doing, they were committing attrocities in Chechnya.
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Agreed, understanding is a two way street.
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Terroists, no matter where they are....need to be wiped out. The world should no longer have to tolerate these people.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Terroists, no matter where they are....need to be wiped out. The world should no longer have to tolerate these people.
Pretty much everyone agrees on this in principal. It just seems people disagree on what to do with people that harbor terrorist, sponsor terrorists or promote their behavior.
MiniD
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I support Russia in the war against muslim extremists.
Do whatever is neccessary.
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martlet...i never advocated killing civilians. but then...i bet you consider those bastards who took 700 people hostage in moscow as civilians eh??
sorry if i was misunderstood. i will try to work on my language skills.
take care.
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Martlet that report wasn't propaganda, it fits pretty much what russia has done down there.
They've destroyed the entire infrastructure of Grosnyi (the capital), they're abducting and raping people on daily basis and several thousand of the chechens are living in tent villages plagued with tuberculosis.
I just happened to see a document of one of those camps yesterday, the team of reporters has kept contact with a chechen family for 3 years, since thier house was blown to smitherins and they were relocated to the tents. Yes, they've been living in a tent for 3 years with winter conditions going 20 degrees below freezing. They have no sanitation or hot water.
Still many of the interviewed said they choose to live and die in the tents instead of going back to chechenya, because of the random abuse of the russian army and the destruction of thier homes. They said the constitution put in place was a complete joke as there was no chechenya left anymore. All libraries, schools and museums are destroyed.
On the other hand, after seeing the chechen home video where they use a hunting knife to cut the throat of a russian soldier and then leave him on the ground to bleed to death.. Carefully making the cut so that no major arteries were broken (that way the 'fun' can continue for 10-15 minutes.) I have no sympathies for the people either.
That image will haunt me for the rest of my life. Those people are animals.
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What's the difference between them and the Saddam regime?
martlet...i never advocated killing civilians. but then...i bet you consider those bastards who took 700 people hostage in moscow as civilians eh??
Nope, I think taking hostages can pretty much seal you into the category of "combatant". Just my opinion though.
Apology accepted.
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Originally posted by Martlet
What's the difference between them and the Saddam regime?
Nope, I think taking hostages can pretty much seal you into the category of "combatant". Just my opinion though.
Apology accepted.
Terrorists are not "combatants" and do not have any protection from international cobventions.
Some things about attack of Grozniy.
At the New Year 1995, Russian Army made a first attemt to take control of Grozniy, a Russian-built city, former Cossak fortress. The city was full of civilians, mostly Russians, and so Army just entered it WITHOUT any heavy weapons support. Special forces had to leave anythinh other then their automats and bayonets, even no grenade launchers or jet firethrowers. The result was a complete disaster, a catastrophe. City was heavily fortified, Chechens successfully used ambushes and mines. Losses were unbelievably high. Some of the bodies of unknown soldiers still wait for identefication, 8 years later :( Anyway, in several weeks Army took control of Grozniy, and later, in Summer 1996, had to leave it and Hankala base after Hasavjurt peace treaty.
After Chechen agression in Dagestan that was followed by apartment bombings in Russian cities, Army came back to restore order. This time it was obvious that Grozniy is no more then just a terrorist fortress. The city was surrounded and a passage was left for civilians to leave the city. They waited for several weeks, made sure that noone else leaves the city and started an assault according to regulations based on WWII experience. You can see the result.
The funniest thing was when one officer came to Basayeb's headquaters, and promised to show terrorists the safe way out of the city, saying that Russian command will not intercept them if they pay $200,000. Chechens payed. The "safe way out" turned to be a valley full of landmines and already was tested by several artillery batteries. Very few escaped, unfortunately Basayev was one of them, but he had his leg torn off.
Now let me translate some terms from "terrorist human rights" language to English.
Kidnapping - an arrest of a known terrorist hiding in a village. Compare it to "Russian POWs" who usually turn out to be slaves or businessmen held in zindans for money.
Criminal "zachistka" (cleaning) - a planned operation when a village is checked for illwgal weapons, known terrorists, and passport regime violators (usually Moslim mercenaries).
Since 2000, most of the "freedom fighters" are Arab mercenaries, "working" for money. Saudi sheikhs send them great sum of money, and to prove they are fighting a Jihad they have to make videos of blown-up vehicles and tortured Russians.
Martlet, you said you are aware that US helps Chechen terrorists. I just want to know: is it OK for you?
Another thing for you. You posted a link to a Chechen propaganda site. That people are murderers, they practice terrorism, slavery and tortures. After 9-11 I posted some links to Kavkaz.org, where they cheered the destruction of WTC.
It' simple: you have to choose your side.
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For the past few days, you've been posting from propaganda rags showing the US in a poor light. I simply did the same, stating that ANYONE can find people willing to write garbage.
You took offense. So did many Americans over the garbage you've been posting.
Stop being a hipocrite.