Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Animal on April 01, 2003, 11:22:52 PM
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First, let me say that I KNOW this thread will end in a flame war, I dont care AS LONG AS I GET THE INFORMATION I SEEK. So please start your pro/con guns debate after I'm finished.
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In a few months I will have my gun license (finally)
As the date approaches I have been reading, asking questions, and getting informed on several types of handguns.
I figured I'd post about it here, since most of you are proud redneck sons of a gun who had Magnums instead of pacifiers :)
I know the best way to decide what firearm to choose is to test them, but sadly due to our restrictive laws there are not many legal gun owners here (but MANY illegal owners) so not a big variety of guns I can ask people to let me use.
What caliber round should I use? Should I go for a bigger gun for stability? Or for a smaller one so that I can later use it once I have a license to conceal?
What I'm leaning most so far, is the Glock 22 ( .40 ). The only downside it seems is that its too expensive.
I have never done target shooting with a handgun, only with rifles and shotguns, so I need all the help I can get.
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Ruger 22 pistol.
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the point of a pistol is close defense.
that ain't a dinky lil cap gun situation.
i happen to prefer the 1911 colt .45 ACP.
says 'stop' with authority.. before and after you squeeze the trigger.
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Yeah but I was thinking of something for target practice, and if I ever need to use it for self defense, then I would like to disable my assilant, not blow an arm off with a .45 :)
Funked,
I googled and its a .22
Very funny, you scoundrel.
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I realized maybe you mean to use it for target practice until I'm proficient, but I rather have a real gun from the start.
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animal, try 'em both.
seriously.
believe me, a .45 will not break your wrist. there's a reason that pistol has been in production since 1911.
I would like to disable my assilant, not blow an arm off with a .45
what.. so the pinhead can sue yah? If yah need to pull it and squeeze, you'd better kill him.
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Why stop at one?
I like 92Fs, fine weapon, but shooting that .45 with the big grain ammo at the con last year was a blast.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
animal, try 'em both.
seriously.
believe me, a .45 will not break your wrist. there's a reason that pistol has been in production since 1911.
what.. so the pinhead can sue yah? If yah need to pull it and squeeze, you'd better kill him.
Good point, I guess I'll try the .45 then.
Swoop, can you tell me more about the 92F?
(Googling it right now)
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Good info on the Beretta 92F:
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/beretta92f.htm
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I think there have been some reports of Berettas cracking if shot extensively, like 20k rounds+.
FWIW.
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Anyone here has extensive experience with diferent Glocks of different calibers?
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another good reason to work out regularly with a .45... after your completely familiar with it, when you try out smaller caliber stuff you'll zero twice as fast and be a bit more accurate from the git-go.
.45's are pretty cheap for a good used one.. and like I say.. it's an excellent piece to 'qualify' with before you move on to more expensive 9mm's and such.
but you will always have a soft spot for the .45 ;)
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Yup, Beretta 92F.
lovely little weapon. Fires like a pop gun but there's almost no recoil, it's accurate as hell and carries a 15 round clip.
Puck still has the targets from the con, I was real pleased with my 15rds all in the black considering I'd never fired a pistol before, shows just how easy to use a 92F is. Although 14 of Curval's 15rds musta got beamed up by the USS Enterprise cos they didnt reach the paper (heh, sorry Curv, but it was classic). Anyway, there's plenty of clones of the 92F available if you dont wanna spend the $ on the real thing, I think I saw one in the Bass Pro shop for under $200.
Gotta tell ya the Udie story again as well: Udie worked in a gun store, father and son come in to buy a pistol for the boy, the son wants a 9mm, the father says "Son, I never had to shoot a man twice with a .45.". They bought the .45.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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smith and wesson .44 magnum revolver...cheap..deadly...an d it doesnt spit out the spent cartridges and leave your fingerprints laying everywhere to be found by CSI. :D
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The 92F is a Beretta 9mm. I have a .40 cal version of one. They're good guns, but kinda spendy. Dunno if they're worth the bang for the buck. I'd recommend a Taurus over a Beretta if budget was a major concern.
I like the .45 round in automatic pistols. The recoil isn't bad at all and no prolific automatic beats its stopping power. If You feel that may be a bit much, I'd recommend a .40 instead. Its halfway between the 9mm (which I feel is too small) and the .45.
The Ruger Mark II (and newer) series of pistols are excellent for target shooting (.22 cal). But that is all.
If you get to looking at revolvers, I like the .357 magnum stuff. Once again, the kick is not what you'd expect. And it is really a magnicent round.
MiniD
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mmmmmm
If they'd let me in Europe: Desert Eagle .50
Not half mate!
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Hmm...not a flame, just making sure I'm reading you right on what you want:
1. Something easy to shoot for target practice. Should be easy to handle and use inexpensive ammunition. And accurate.
2. Second use would be self-defense. Trust me, worrying about winging someone will get you hurt. Shoot to kill or don't even pull the gun out.
3. You don't have much experience. So you probably need something simple.
To me, this adds up to one of two guns. A Smith and Wesson .357 revolver or a Glock (whichever style you prefer) in 9mm. Why?
The Smith is a revolver. I.e., it is dirt simple. Put the ammo in the cylender and pull the trigger. A .357 isn't a .45Auto, but it will do the job. They can be bought from $400 to 600. And the ammo is cheap and easy to find (I guess. I've never been down there) I have a S&W Model 66 for home defense. I know my wife can shoot it well and she can operate it under a stressful situation.
The Glock is also dirt simple and easy to use. It is the most common sidearm used by Arizona peace officers by far. Like the revolver, you load it, rack the action and pull the trigger. They are also supposed to be very reliable. I am not a fan of the 9mm, I prefer the .45auto. But, if you're learning, try a 9mm. They don't kick as much and they will perform as a stopper with the right ammo. Speaking of ammo, 9mm should be easier to find. Which is good for target shooting.
Now, if I was going to tell a person what gun to get without any special consideration what would it be? One of two weapons. My favorite is a Colt .45 1911. Second place would be a CZ 75. But Colt's take much practice to really learn how to be proficeint with it and the CZ's are pricey. But they are the best 9mm on the market.
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Like a salamander, you are having second thoughts. You are shrinking, and your two little balls are shrinking with ya. The fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your gun. And the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine, should precipitate your balls into shrinking, along with your presence. Now... **** off!
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Dune, thats exactly the kind of information and advice I want.
I was thinking of the Glock because it is simple to operate and reliable according to what Ive read and heard, and the .40 because I wanted something in between .45 and 9mm, so that I could use the other two calibers comfortably.
I dont really like the idea of a revolver, forgive my ignorance, but they just seem... quaint :)
I absorbed your point on shooting to kill when in real trouble. Hope it never gets to that point.
Swoop, nice story. If I was also there looking for a gun and heard that conversation, I would buy exactly the same gun the man got for his son :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
Like a salamander, you are having second thoughts. You are shrinking, and your two little balls are shrinking with ya. The fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your gun. And the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine, should precipitate your balls into shrinking, along with your presence. Now... **** off!
Bullet Tooth Tony is one of the greatest characters in film history.
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Nah, Bricktop was cooler than Tony.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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But Colt's take much practice to really learn how to be proficeint with it and the CZ's are pricey.
welll..... about that 'practice'... first pistol i ever fired was a .45.. and because i had no bad habits to break and i had a good instructor i became proficient pretty quick.
and man, that .45 feels as good as my dick in my hand. ;)
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Yeah thanks for that image Hang. Suddenly my breakfast doesnt look so good.
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Ouch, Hang...I didn't want to hear what you do in your off hours.
:D
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Damnit Hang...
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you don't want a gun, you'll just put your eye out
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(http://www.alienvisuals.com/daedalus/redryder.jpg)
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22cal bullets are very cheap, so you can spend alot of time at the range target shooting.
22s arent very lethal, in fact, just a year or two ago here in Kentucky a store clerk was shot in the head with a 22. The robber fired from about 10 feet away, and the clerk slumped to the floor. Dead? No, the bullet bounced off his skull.
Bigger bullets are expensive, so it will cost most to practice at the range with a larger gun. You can always get a larger gun later after you learn how to shoot proficiently.
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Here is my gun, its good and im happy with it
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/english/behoerden/01_pistols/01_05_index.html
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I own a Taurus Pt 105 .40. Great gun, accurate, easy to disassemble/assemble, reasonable recoil, good ammo choices. I also own a .357 Taurus, forget the number.
Anyways with the revolver you can shoot .357 mag and .38 special, so you have a whole lotta choice in ammo and quality of loads. Takes reloads without a problem. The auto however is more finicky and hates reloads. These 2 pistols I believe represent the best 1 shot to stop percentages of common handguns (excluding Desert Eagles and "custom"guns) read that somwhere anyways, that's why I got 'em. I went with the .40 over 9mm for stopping power and over the .45 for mag capacity. I get bullets from a USBP buddy, you should get a USBP buddy, too!
Also you should see if you want a small, medium, or large frame. I have big hands and prefer the large, howver the best feeling gun I have tried was a friend's Ruger 9mm, just felt..comfy. Custom grips are a definitely worth the cost. You should come to the mainland and go to a gunshop w/ a shooting range to try out different guns before you buy (not sure you have that where you live).
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Animal. You don't need to spend huge $$$ for your starting firearm. I found this one (http://www.fogdog.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1219245) for $24.99.
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lol.
April 1st was yesterday wasnt it?
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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Beetle,
You haven't a clue! "Super Soaker" is much better than a cap gun.
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Originally posted by Animal
I dont really like the idea of a revolver, forgive my ignorance, but they just seem... quaint :)
I've never heard of a revolver jamming tho, have you?
I had a Dan Wesson .357mag for years. It had interchangable barrels, so you could put a 2 1/2", 4", 6", 8" all the way up to a 12" barrels on it. As well as interchangable sights
Plus you can shoot .38 rounds out of a .357mag, ( I used .38 reloads for target practice).
So basically U get like 6 guns for the price of one.
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Dune gave the best advice.
A mainstream auto (like the glock you mentioned) in either .40 or 9mm. The .45 is probably a bit much for a beginner, contrary to the "Gotta have a FRIGGIN cannon !!!" crowd ;). Berretta's are popular, and my favorite is the SigSauer (but its the most expensive generally).
Also a cheap alternative, and extremely simple and reliable, is the medium frame .357 Magnum (which will fire cheaper and less recoil oriented .38 specials rounds). Smith & Wesson make very nice ones, but generally overpriced. You can get a cheaper Taurus with the same features for several hundred dollars less.
Also depending on brand, I recommend getting stainless steel where possible. Its a little more expensive, but usually worth it. Much easier to take care of, and less prone to scratches and rust.
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I like the Baretta 92F best for in hand feeling and accuracy, I cant hit crap with any Glock. I do hear they break more often though, what can you say - it's italian and looks cool to boot how could it ever be reliable. :)
Here is the stainless version:
(http://www.beretta.com/images/immagini_maxi/p_92FS_inox_maxi.jpg)
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As an Amateur gunsmith and avid shooter I would recommend you looking at a 4inch stainless steel mid frame revolver in .357 mag. I will give the reasons why
1. Plenty of power with 125 or 140 gr. HP ammo to provide self defense
2. Not to bad to carry concealed with the right holster
3. Can shoot .38 spl. for inexpensive target practice (don’t forget to shoot your defense round a bit also)
4. lower maintenance in high salt environment i.e. PR or in carry
5. Very reliable i.e. less chance of jambs and ammo quality.
6. less expensive then most auto of same quality.
7. Seems more normal and less threatening in the aftermath of a shooting
8. Can shoot shot shells for small game, snake or rat control.
9. If round misfire’s just pull the trigger again no clearing needed
10. Plenty of accuracy for a hand gun does not require as much practice to stay proficient
Look at Ruger, Taurus, then Smith (in that order)
Have fun and good luck
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Don't buy a glock Animal..my buddy is a gun expert and tells me the safety is very poor...its a very accident prone gun.
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http://www.fnmfg.com/products/fivesevn/fivesevn.htm
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Originally posted by Animal
Yeah but I was thinking of something for target practice, and if I ever need to use it for self defense, then I would like to disable my assilant, not blow an arm off with a .45 :)
Animal,
If this is your first gun I would normally recomend a .38 revolver (.357 if available) or a 9mm. The newer 9mm amunition is vastly improved over the original ball style.
I have several glocks as well as more than one .45 Colt. I prefer the glock as it is lighter, cheaper and in my opinion just as good as the early Colts that had the better quality. I have found the Glocks to be accurate, and more importantly, reliable.
The ammo should be a factor in your choice. It is usually the case that 9mm is easy to find and less expensive than .45. This will let you get more practice for the bucks.
Now as to your quoted statement. Take it from me, do not consider the hollywood garbage about disabling an assailant. If you need to defend yourself with a firearm you are already in a situation that you had damn well better be in fear of your life over. If not then you have no business using a gun to solve it. That means shooting to STOP the assailant with a center mass hit. Anything else is wasting very critical and short time by trying to be a hollywood "cowboy". One of the lines I did hear that actually made sense in a movie was from the Patriot. The father was telling his sons during their rescue of their brother that to shoot small was to miss small. Under stress your motor skills go to absolute crap!!! You are most likely to miss trying to shoot a small target under stress. Most folks have no clue about this and therefor do not under stand why trained Police Officers miss so many timnes in a close combat situation. Street cops have been trained to TRY and overcome this but when the fertilizer hits the air motivator all bets are off. Those of us who have been in combat know this to be true. Try not to learn it first hand.....
Last point. Aviod situation where you will need a gun to defend yourself. The best way to get out of trouble is to make sure you don't get INTO trouble.;)
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just got done shooting a glock in .40 the .40 is a great round... very accurate and very light recoil... 9mm is terrible
I shoot a cut down Ruger Redhawk in .44 mag. this is a very accurate and powerful gun and very easy to use.. I also use a 1930's colt 1911 in .45 done up in "period mexican drug dealer" chrome, with ivory grips. this is a great little gun. flat and reliable. I carry it with a grip clip that the whole thing just clips to your waistband... very little recoil.. I carry it with one in the chamber and the hammer down.. to fire, I simply cock it as I draw. An ok gun that is a little weak but acceptable.
the glock is also the best (most intuitive) semi auto I have seen no stupid safeties that you have to guess about but... you still need to know if there is one in the chamber or not. The glock has a decent trigger pull and is all single action.
I would recomend the .357 also. It is the worlds champ one shot stopper next to the .44 you can get .357 in titanium feartherweights to 8 shot S&W's... The 357 will also reach way out there unlike the .40's and .45's
I also have a gun that I really like... a Walther PPK in .32 stainless. very accurate and with silvertips... useable I guess I like it more for it's craftsmanship and reliability than anything else tho..
truthfully... I would reccomend a revolver for all first time gun owners... preferably in .357 or .44 mag. they are by far the safest and most reliable and.... above all... the most versitile and accurate. semi autos are not very versitile and it is a pain to police your brass... they can be confusing and take much more training. They are not much good past about 50 yards and you can't go out plinking with em like you can a good revolver. You can't shoot the variety of ammo out of an auto that you can a revolver. If you reload (for a huge savings) the revolver shines above the auto even more.
lazs
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ahhh, I apologize. I didn't take "first gun" into consideration.
Definately not the FN then.
I'd probably go with something smaller.
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Originally posted by MoMoney
Don't buy a glock Animal..my buddy is a gun expert and tells me the safety is very poor...its a very accident prone gun.
Bovine excrement of the HIGHEST order!!!!!!!!!
I own several. I carried one FULL TIME on and off duty as a Police Officer for years and fired several thousand rounds through my main weapon. At NO time did it pose a safety issue, fail or malfunction when fed QUALITY ammo. Your gun "expert" is full of it.
Now like ANY OTHER tool the weapon requires that it be handled with care and concern for what you are doing. Those who are unwilling to excercise that care and get training in the PROPER use of a firearm shouldn't have one. That same premise also goes for cars, trucks, planes and any other type of tool that can be misused. :rolleyes:
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the .45 has recoil? I think .45's are pretty mild but..
those of us who have been shooting handguns for many years have seen the semi auto make a huge rise in popularity. I belive that the revolver is still the best tho for most any use that you may need.. the revolver does everything well. Most first time buyers who by wizz bang autos end up shoot ing a a couple of boxes through them and then forgetting about em for long periods of time... they never do any shooting with em other than at the range and at fixed targets less than 25 yards away... that is fine but they are missing out on the fun of handgun shooting... Hitting a five gallon bucket at 200 yards with a .357 or .44 mag is a blast for instance. shooting rats or ground squirrels... etc. all suited to the very versitile revolver... reloading, a hobby in itself.
lazs
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Colt 1911 A1 .45 ACP. Accept no substitute.
Its American as apple pie and makes holes in torsos that are big enough to throw a small child through.
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The HK P7 is a neat bit of kit.
If you like that sort of thing.
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There was a drastic increase in the amount of "accidental firings" of weapons when the Glocks were first introduced to police forces. There's a damn good reason most Glock holsters cover the trigger. Nothing worse than a 9mm slug in the foot to remind you to keep your finger off the trigger when you are unholstering your weapon. But much of that is habbitual. Dunno what the impact would be on a new gun owner.
BTW.. Animal.. comfort with the weapon is more important than namebrand. Glocks, Sigs and Berettas are all fine weapons. I encourage you to try to find a firing range that rents them and get a feel for them yourself. They all have different feels and you will shoot better with one than another. Machining can affect the accuracy of a gun by inches... comfort can affect it by feet.
I have pretty big hands, so Glocks and 1911s fit pretty decently, though I prefer pacmire (sp?) grips on the 1911s because the stock grip is just a tad narrow and it causes my hand to get pinched by the hammer when it comes back.
Just trying to point out that theres a difference between asking "what's a good gun" and finding a gun that's good for you.
MiniD
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Welcome to the world of Gun Owners :D
Didnae read the whole thread, just the original post and scanned it a bit.
First thing, like (I think) Hangtime said, if ya gotta pull and fire, shoot to kill. Period.
Now, my preferred carry piece is the Colt 1911A1, 70series, chambered in .45ACP. The 80series (in the 91A1s also) are nice pieces, but you can't get as fine a trigger with them because of the firing pin block mechanism.
What should you get? That all depends on you and what you want in a gun. The Colt .45s are very managable weapons. On the other hand, the Barretta 9mm's are decent. These are the 2 main camps in the circles I travel =)
.45ACP - Low velocity, high impact round. You hit something with this and it'll know for sure it's been hit, specially with high performance hollow point ammo.
9mm - High velocity, low impact round. Ya know in movies, they show a guy get shot 3 times, jerk a little on each impact, and keep comin before he dies? There ya go. Round passes right through.
.40S&W - I like this round, kind of a "best of both world" from the .45 and 9mm. Looking at Glocks chambered in .40S&W I'd go for the Glock23 instead of the 22. I've owned both, and the 23 (compact model) just felt better and was easier to point shoot.
Then there's the 10mm. Same caliber as the .40 but a longer cartridge. The Colt Delta Elite chambered in 10mm is a very nice weapon, and my second choice of personal sidearms.
Now if ya wanna go with a 'wheel gun' ya can't go wrong with a .357mag. Lazs does a nice job highlighting revolvers. They do tend to be more accurate than the autos. I've got a Colt Trooper .357mag 6" I'll shoot against anyone's rifle, iron sights to iron sights, out to 150yds.
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Animal, you asked what would make for a good starting firearm.
In my opinion, and this would apply to everyone and not just you, that Red Ryder BB gun would be the best to start with. This is not a cut, but in all seriousness, many of today's top sharpshooters started out practicing with BB guns 'til they could hit any target at any time, each and every time.
Next move would be a .22 rifle single shot "til the same results were achieved. After that, a .22 lever action such as a Marlin 39A model were used (Annie Oakley's favorite.) I remember reading in a gun magazine a few years ago, about a man who hit 9,997 out of a possible 10,000 two inch wood cubes tossed up in the air, using one of these Marlin .22s.
You did mention target shooting as your intended use to start out with. I would avoid semi-autos for a couple reasons, the main one being a dependency on rapid follow-up shots to hit the target. Target shooters need to be able to depend on the first shot, with disciplined follow-up shots. The pause between shots forces the shooter to have self-discipline and form consistency...like bowling, golf, archery, horseshoes,etc...
I don't know what your level of proficiency is with a firearm Animal. Normally, handguns are more advanced target weapons for folks who already pretty much know what they're doing. They require greater control to handle, and are inherently more dangerous than long arms.
Good luck to you mate, be careful, and have fun. For target shooting, try to develop the one shot at a time approach, until shooting the weapon becomes second nature.
Les
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Keep in mind that Animal has extremely weak wrists as you recommend him firearms. A .357's recoil might be too much for him.
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I own a Glock 23 and some other pistols. The Glock is my favorite. Glocks are simple and reliable, very nice guns. However... If you are buying a pistol for self-defense, I really would suggest a .357 magnum. There is just a lot less to go wrong with the revolver. When you get a malfunction in an automatic there are a lot of different things it could be. The training drills for the various types of malfunctions involve things such as: tilting the gun back to look into the chamber, racking the slide multiple times, ejecting magazines etc... etc... With a revolver there is ONE response to a malfunction: pull the trigger again. If you ever have to use it in self defense, this could be a big deal.
If you want to treat the pistol as a hobby, take some serious training, spend a lot of practice time and become proficient then IMO an automatic is better. If you are not going to make that kind of commitment, then a revolver is much less likely to be problematic in a stressful situation.
Hooligan
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If you cant hit with a shotgun, you should not try shooting .
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Couple points (personal opinion only)
Glocks: Very, very fine weapons. Im partial to the 19 and the 23 (9mm and .40 respectively). I worked at a rifle range as an instructer all throughout college and we must have put over a million rounds through the 17 - not a single misfire, not a single stove pipe, not a single jam, not a single FTF/FTE. I deplore the "pointability" of the weapon, but for a quick, precise defense weapon and "plinker" you cant do much better for the money. These things will shoot forever, maintained properly or not. The downside is the safety (or lack thereof). There is a small plastic piece on the trigger that must be depressed before the trigger can be pulled - its not really any "less safe" than any other firearm, but new comers may feel uneasy about it.
1911's: The best. Colt, Springfield Armory, Kimber, Les Baer - all great 1911 manufacturers. Much like MiniD, I prefer to replace to the stock wodden or plastic grips with rubber wrap arounds as I have fairly large hands. The .45 ACP round is the absolute BEST for self defense. Its slow, and hits like a hammer. Whatever you fire at will nto be getting back up. I still maintain that the .45 ACP is the finest pistol round made. The must be taken care of, but they will east any round you feed them, will fire every time, and will fire accurately (there is a reason more than 90% of compitition shooters use modified 1911's as their peices.) The downsides are again - new user unfreindly. The short barrel 1911's have a tendency to "kick" a little too much for the new shooter, and the single action is enough to scare some people. The firearm must be carried "locked and cocked" to be effective. The visable cocked hammer can be nerve racking for some if its pointed down at your foot in a holster. The "pointability" is as good as they get though. You can hit what you want to without even really aiming the weapon. Another downside - the weapon is VERY heavy compared to the others.
Berreta 92F: Basically the same as the military's M9, the 92F is a fine pistol for most - but I dont like it. The two models we had at the range (92F standard and a 96 (.40) Inox) were very troublesome. The would jam consistantly with certain types of ammo, they must be cleaned fanatically, and we had two slides break within 40,000 rounds. Alot of people swear by them, and the US military has adopted them. The 9mm ammo is cheap, but not very effective at stoping a target (US Army/MC manuals state that 5 rounds must be fired to "stop" a charging enemy. I dont htink the 9mm is a good defensive round for this reason, as well as the fact that it is a very high velocity round and in a defense situation, may pass through your target and strike an innocent bystander. The weapon is fairly large and difficult to conceal, but its easy to shoot.
H&K's: Dont like these at all. Serious reliability issues with the models Ive shot, and they just feel too "plasticky."
Sig Sauers: Fine weapons again. The P228 we had didnt stand up to hundreds of thousands of rounds very well, but replacement parts are cheap and easy to find. Good feel, light weight, large magazine capacity, and in 9mm form, not too difficult to handle for a first time shooter.
I still say stick with the 1911's. You just cant go wrong with a Colt, SA, or Kimber.
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Loving this thread so far. Cant wait to try the diferent models at a range.
Originally posted by Leslie
Animal, you asked what would make for a good starting firearm.
In my opinion, and this would apply to everyone and not just you, that Red Ryder BB gun would be the best to start with. This is not a cut, but in all seriousness, many of today's top sharpshooters started out practicing with BB guns 'til they could hit any target at any time, each and every time.
Next move would be a .22 rifle single shot "til the same results were achieved. After that, a .22 lever action such as a Marlin 39A model were used (Annie Oakley's favorite.) I remember reading in a gun magazine a few years ago, about a man who hit 9,997 out of a possible 10,000 two inch wood cubes tossed up in the air, using one of these Marlin .22s.
You did mention target shooting as your intended use to start out with. I would avoid semi-autos for a couple reasons, the main one being a dependency on rapid follow-up shots to hit the target. Target shooters need to be able to depend on the first shot, with disciplined follow-up shots. The pause between shots forces the shooter to have self-discipline and form consistency...like bowling, golf, archery, horseshoes,etc...
I don't know what your level of proficiency is with a firearm Animal. Normally, handguns are more advanced target weapons for folks who already pretty much know what they're doing. They require greater control to handle, and are inherently more dangerous than long arms.
Good luck to you mate, be careful, and have fun. For target shooting, try to develop the one shot at a time approach, until shooting the weapon becomes second nature.
Les
I grew up with a .22 rifle in my hands, I am a pretty good marksman :) can hit quarters about 80 yards away.
What I'm inexperienced in, is handguns.
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The 1911 is the most natural feeling pistol I've ever fired - it just feels right in the hand. Not unmanagable even for a first-time shooter if there is adequate instruction in the basics that can be built upon with additional practice.
However, the best .45 I ever shot was a friend's Glock with the 12-round magazine. It was easy to shoot and I was more accurate with that gun than with my 9 mm Tarus 92C knockoff.
One consideration is ammo cost. 9mm is really cheap yet it's a big enough round to have a little kick. I'm partial to .45, but get a bit of sticker shock sending rounds down range :)
Charon
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Get yourself a .44...
(http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL174/1020490/1905363/22707539.jpg)
You can learn to shoot any gun if you stick with it.
Sounds like you don't have a bunch of options where you live, so I'd certainly get a .44. At least you will not have to worry about getting a bigger cal.; if you can't stop someone with one of these, you're in way too deep.
The semi-autos are a good brag item and fun to shoot...but when it all come down to it there is only a few shots fired in most personal disputes. So getting in 9 shots might be good, but the first one is the one that will most likely get the job done.
And once you can shoot a .44, most other guns will seem pretty lame :cool:
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Yeah, get a .44. In your house, if you miss the bad guy, you can set him on fire with the muzzle flash. ;)
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I guess I'm old fashioned. I prefer wheels guns.
I'd have to reccomend a .357, the reasons have been stated above. Relaibility, power (when you need it), accuracy, and ammo can be pretty cheap too.
I've shot about 12-15 different hand guns and my favorite by far is still my Colt King Cobra. with a 6"barrel the recoil isnt bad at all and the gun is very well balanced. Also its got the best grip of any gun I've shot.
I also own a S&W sigma p40c (.40cal). Its a cheap glock knockoff that I only bought cause I got a great deal on it. I like the .40 round but not in this gun. Its too light and the barrel is too short. Its also not very accurate.
If you want to get something really cheap and accurate get a ruger or S&W .22. No good for defense but makes a great 2nd gun for plinking.
In the end it all comes down what you like most. Talk to people at the range, ask if you can shoot a few rounds through thier guns. Most people (myself aswell) won't mind at all. When you find something you like, buy it.
Right now I'm storing some guns for my brother so I've got access to just about everything from a .22 to a .44. But you can bet if my life depends on it I'm grabbing my Colt.
(http://home.mpinet.net/~getjdt/guns.JPG)
the pic dosen't do it justice, but my Colt is a really beautiful gun.
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About owning a handgun for self-defense.
Accept no substitutes.
http://www.wilsoncombat.com/store.cgi?&shop=city&cart=79981648x76406&session=3e8b5f6d2a766c50&L=eng&Category=10002
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Originally posted by milnko
I've never heard of a revolver jamming tho, have you?
I had a Dan Wesson .357mag for years. It had interchangable barrels, so you could put a 2 1/2", 4", 6", 8" all the way up to a 12" barrels on it. As well as interchangable sights
Plus you can shoot .38 rounds out of a .357mag, ( I used .38 reloads for target practice).
So basically U get like 6 guns for the price of one.
I used to have a Dan Wesson .44 mag with an 8 inch barrel, that thing was SWEEEEET!! If you want true stopping power go with a .454 Casul (sp). That thing will penetrate 1/4 inch steel plate, 357/44 mags just dent it :D
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Originally posted by TPIguy
I guess I'm old fashioned. I prefer wheels guns.
I'd have to reccomend a .357, the reasons have been stated above. Relaibility, power (when you need it), accuracy, and ammo can be pretty cheap too.
I've shot about 12-15 different hand guns and my favorite by far is still my Colt King Cobra. with a 6"barrel the recoil isnt bad at all and the gun is very well balanced. Also its got the best grip of any gun I've shot.
I also own a S&W sigma p40c (.40cal). Its a cheap glock knockoff that I only bought cause I got a great deal on it. I like the .40 round but not in this gun. Its too light and the barrel is too short. Its also not very accurate.
If you want to get something really cheap and accurate get a ruger or S&W .22. No good for defense but makes a great 2nd gun for plinking.
In the end it all comes down what you like most. Talk to people at the range, ask if you can shoot a few rounds through thier guns. Most people (myself aswell) won't mind at all. When you find something you like, buy it.
Right now I'm storing some guns for my brother so I've got access to just about everything from a .22 to a .44. But you can bet if my life depends on it I'm grabbing my Colt.
(http://home.mpinet.net/~getjdt/guns.JPG)
the pic dosen't do it justice, but my Colt is a really beautiful gun.
Very good info. Thanks.
I guess I'll just get my license first, and then I'll go to the range and ask friendly looking people to let me use their gun, and I'll pay for the ammo.
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good approach.
and get the training to use responsibly.
nothing worse that gun owners that are 'self taught' IMHO
oh.. and for real stopping power
357, 44 or 45
like was metioned earlier.. the muzzle flash alone should scare 'em away
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If you just want to scare them away, nothing says get the **** out like chambering a shell in a pump shotgun.
MiniD
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gotta' admit.. short barelled shotgun for home defense...
just in case your aim is off a bit :)
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For the best home defense, a .22 rifle with 18 shots is the way to go.
Then grab the shotgun to end the suffering of the wounded. ;)
[edit].44 would do a nice clean-up also.[/edit]
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a 22 rifle for home defense?
I beg to differ...
shotgun, 45 auto (only cuz I'm used to it), m16 auo...
hey, it's what we used for 'boarding' parties.. figure it'll work at home too ! ;0
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nothing beats a short barrel shotgun for home defense.
The rounds don't kill the kids in the next room.
Hard to miss.
Stopping power.
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Originally posted by Martlet
nothing beats a short barrel shotgun for home defense.
The rounds don't kill the kids in the next room.
Hard to miss.
Stopping power.
Houses here are made of concrete so I can go wild with the caliber :)
I think I'll go for my initial Glock choice, or a 1911, depending on how they feel at the range.
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Glock 17. You'll never be sorry....
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
a 22 rifle for home defense?
I beg to differ...
shotgun, 45 auto (only cuz I'm used to it), m16 auo...
hey, it's what we used for 'boarding' parties.. figure it'll work at home too ! ;0
Never been shot with a .22 rifle, eh? You'll only do that once. And the 'crack, crack, crack' of 18 shots will make anyone run for cover.
As for the M16...semi-auto 30.06 will do more damage.
And you might only get one shot with a shotgun.
But for everyday 'walk down the street and get it' games, .44 pistol takes the cake.
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This ought to take care of them pesky home intruders! :)
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=8110304
just $7,500! but hurry only 13 hours left!
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Ummmm...should I be concerned about pictures that show a 20mm cannon in a childs bedroom?
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I gotta admit a 9mm has the edge with a larger clip, but I prefer to knock down with 1 Black Talon round from my Ruger P90DC .45acp, call me Old School.
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I’ve been reading through this thread, and educating myself about guns. You guys sound like you’re tooling up to go to Iraq! Bit late now...
Clearly some of you are worried about intruders, and a violation of your property. But how likely is this? I know the US well, and the areas I went to/lived in appeared to be relatively crime free. At my office in Golden,CO in 1997, people did not bother to lock their cars outside the building. So I’m wondering where some of your aggression comes from, or do many of you live in rough areas? I’d just like to make a few quotes from the above passage. - If yah need to pull it and squeeze, you'd better kill him.
- Shoot to kill or don't even pull the gun out.
- Its American as apple pie and makes holes in torsos that are big enough to throw a small child through.
- This ought to take care of them pesky home intruders![/b]
Wow! Just what sort of visitors do you expect in YOUR neighbourhood??? :eek::eek:
But as I continued reading, I came to realise that this thread might not be about guns. The pictures are there to hide the fact, but this is all about masturbation. Hangtime was the first to alert me to this when he said and man, that .45 feels as good as my dick in my hand.
So is a .45 a strap on rubber job? As for masturbation technique, Hangtime also said this: If yah need to pull it and squeeze
Once I’d read that, I knew I was definitely on to something! Men with small noodlees tend to have large hands, and vice versa. I have very small hands, but for men with large hands, some sort of adaptor may be necessary – I began to think we were talking about one of those silicon sleeve jobs when I read grips with rubber wrap arounds as I have fairly large hands.
A second reference to a silicon vag was made thus – comfort with the weapon is more important
I thought that would be obvious. Someone began talking about naughty pictures. I take it that a “20mm cannon” was a euphemism for a noodle – should I be concerned about pictures that show a 20mm cannon in a childs bedroom?
Indeed, I would share that concern, but only 20mm?
Finally, there could be no doubt that this thread is about masturbation. Keep in mind that Animal has extremely weak wrists
LOL Animal! I wouldn't worry about your wrists. After what it’s done to your eyesight, maybe you should have second thoughts about getting a gun! I wouldn't trust you with a starting pistol. Take up knitting instead! oh.. and for real stopping power
Ah yes, I see I’m not the only middle aged old fart in here, and that other people have difficulty with premature ejaculation. Some “delay spray” ought to deal with that...
See you at the con, guys – but only if you’re nice. :D
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Given this reply ^ and the recent Bowling thread, I'm guessing Beet1e must be bored.
Please do not feed the troll.
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Beetle is being his normal self. Which is fine.
Yes Beetle my gun is my extension of my noodle. I rather like it..its short. stubbyand thick plus it packs one hell of a punch.
:)
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Originally posted by Mr. Toad
Please do not feed the troll.
ROFL!!! I 'm good at baiting. Indeed, I'm a master at it! ;) But I never started an entire thread about master baiting. I just let everyone else do that - LOL :) Just in case those bad guys visit me, I'll be sure to lock the door tonight.
Batdog! That's nice. Of course you know that European males have the complete thing - I guess that would equate to a silencer! America deems it to be unnecessary and it is removed at birth.
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Guys, guys, I already got the info I needed. This thread is rightfully beet1e's now.
You all know all gun threads are his turf, so from now on, he can say all he wants.
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Animal, check out that potato gun- it might be something to consider.
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animal....get a Kimber.
also, since you're a beginner, have you thought about revolvers? if so, Smith & Wesson... .44 with at least a 6" barrel.
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I hope someone has advised you to hold the gun in your hand for a while.
A Glock tends to have bulkier more angular shape - which may not be convenient to hold and cause some pain/cramp your palm (thimb-index finger web) with recoil.
I found a thinner rounder handle of a Beretta or 1911 much easier to hold and cause no cramp after a lot fo shooting.
Inoidentally, I found perceived recoil of 1911 lighter than that of Beretta and much ligher than that of a Glock.
Having a gun made of metal makes a lot of difference due to weight, not just the shape.
Anyway, I do not recommend either one of those two, though they are both great - try to shoot a few before you decide anything.
Revolvers are great for reliability, especially a close range defence (under 5 yards) and long-distance shooting like hunting and target at 200 yards - you can take your time and cock the hammer.
But a much greater trigger pull weight of a revolver compared to a tuned semi-auto makes certain types of defensive shooting - multiple shots at ranges over 5 yards - much less accurate, or ar least requiring more practice to master.
miko
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LOL Beatle :D
The quotes you highlighted are a little more light hearted than you think. :) I guess its just the American humor mentality.
In terms of why we feel safer with defense weapons, there are areas of the country which are not exactly crime-free. (Golden, CO is a very nice area).
In the bad areas around the major cities or even in small towns its not at all uncommon for someone to break into your house in the middle of the night. In addition, driving or walking through some of these area is also bad for your health.
I went to university in a smaller "steel/coal" town and clashes with the "townies" werent uncommon. A good freind of mine had someone break into his house 4 times in one semester (needless to say, he relocated to a better area).
Ive never had to draw my 1911 on anyone, and I hope I NEVER do, but with some of the filth out there in the world today I feel better knowing that the wellbeing of myself and present companions is in MY hands. I can defend myself instead of waiting for the police to show up and ask me questions about what happened (note: past tense).
IMO, if more responsible, law abiding citizens carried firearms, the country would be safer overall. Crooks would think twice about attacking if armed "victims" were the rule and not the exception.
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my prefered handgun is my taurus ti .357 magnum, it is lightweight 19 0z , i can use 38 special ammo for practice as they are cheaper and very accurate, my second choice is my colt ultra elite 380 very fine weapon for an automatic ,both are very conceilable , however never a threat of a jammed cartridge with the revolver.
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how do you guys post pictures now? there is no "browse button" like in the faq anymore.
lazs
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Hey animal, missed this thread til earlier today. Are you leaning toward a revolver? I'd rethink that if I were you. This time last year I was making the same choice as you. I spent some time down at the range, etc. Talked to some friends, started a thread in here :).
I ended up buying a sig sauer p229. It's a 40 cal auto and a well built handgun. I never had a jamming problem with it. It is kinda like a revolver in that it does have a hammer you can pull back for your first shot. Glocks arent like that. None I've seen anyway. I have a friend who went shooting with me occasionally. He had a S&W .44, It was really no comparison between the guns. The sig fits the hand whereas the S&W's grip just doesn't.
I don't know what the muzzle velocity difference is, but I'd bet the sig is much higher. Just a better built gun. Better machined. That S&W revolver is kinda like an old corvette, it looks really impressive, but is more sloppily engineered. And likes to spit powder in your face (i hear thats adjustable).
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Originally posted by lazs2
how do you guys post pictures now? there is no "browse button" like in the faq anymore.
lazs
You can still link them if you have a web host to place them on. Read the f.a.q. if you want to see an example (button up top).
Basically... if its already on a web site (or accessable via url) you can post it as a pic unless the site with the pic has software that prevents it. Like the pic above (Aces High) is located at http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/ah_bansm.gif can be linked using the vbb code "img, /img" in brackets:
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/ah_bansm.gif)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/ah_bansm.gif)
Lazs, you can link to a picture that is posted elsewhere on the internet... a public site, your own website, etc. For example I used the AH logo from this website.
Use the IMG option in the vB Code section of the thread editor. You should be able to right-click on the image you want and "copy image location" or words to that effect.
[edit: Holy Jeez, MiniD, get outta my head! That's creepy!]
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nope... don't have one of them. why did they change it? was pretty simple before.
lazs
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Doing it with the "attach file" involved storing the image on their server. This way has always been there and does not require HTC to consume bandwidth on the images.
MiniD
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:eek:
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MiniD - I like your avatar. In your post above, that's how I imagine you as you try to explain this image attachment business to Lazs. ;)
Lazs - I told you! If you're having trouble, I'd be happy to host any pics for you till you get it figured out. -including that one of you holding the cat. :) They changed it because of the load on the server. Uploading a 100K pic - no big deal, but what happens when 500 people read that thread? That 100K has to be pulled off 500 times. That's what causes your FM2 to warp all over!
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Originally posted by lazs2
how do you guys post pictures now? there is no "browse button" like in the faq anymore.
lazs
Ok Laz, here's what you do.
Go to http://www.FreePicHosting.com and download the executable and open it.
Choose a user name and password, then start your free account.
To post an image from your hard drive:
Go online.
Left click in the lower left corner of the window display to bring your image onto the screen. You must then "Publish" the image with a title you choose, in one of the normal catagories from a dropdown list.
Next, click on the "Stats" tab to get the URL for your image. I write this info down on a piece of paper.
Save the image in your "Album" if you like. Then exit the program.
............................. ............................. ............................. .................
When you come here to post a pic, click on the IMG tab above, and type in the URL info. This will place the image in your message. I tried it for the first time, and it worked.:) See my Flat Top post.
If I can do it, anybody can!!!:D
Les
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This thread has been pronounced dead.
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thanks guys... I'll have bettle post one for me.
guns are a lot like cars and houses... everyone has different needs and taste. I think 2 handguns are the bare minimum. One should be a revolver in .357 or .44 mag. I would be tempted to make the other a .22 in either a revolver like the K22 masterpiece or a semi auto like my hi standard in .22
If you only want one to be hip and modern... get the latest techno one and drag it out to show your friends once in a while.
If you only want it for self defense... get a good semi auto or revolver and take a good course and then practice... practice a lot more if you choose a semi auto.
I like my 30's vintage 1911... it is flashy and..... fun... chrome with ivory grips and those stupid early A1 sights... To me... it would be less useful with triton night sights and wrap around rubber grips and a extended everything. It would then just be a tool that wasn't as good as my .44's (for me).
but then... I drive cars that most would find uncomfortable and impractical and my ideal house would be two story with the entire lower story a garage and workshop.
lazs
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beetle, I went to Laz's house last week and he didn't shoot me. However, his toddler granddaughter kept playing with Laz's .45 but it was OK cause he had the safety on.
I did notice a dead cat across the street from his house tho. :)
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but then... I drive cars that most would find uncomfortable and impractical and my ideal house would be two story with the entire lower story a garage and workshop.
Scary, that sounds just like me.
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Lazs, I got your email and answered it, but don't know if you've been able to create a link to your pic. So I'll post it here. Not sure if this is what you wanted in the first place...
(http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/100-0049_img.jpg)
Is that one at the bottom right a semi-auto? I'll take that one, now that you've explained to me how they work... ;)
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Hey lazs... shouldn't that revolver with the ivory handle have its trigger guard cut off and tape over the trigger? ;)
MiniD
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thanks beetle..
The high standard is a 1952 sportking that i learned on when i was 9. it has probly 100,000 rounds through it easily. A high quality 22 auto is a great handgun to have around to learn on and keep sharp on...
The rugers are redhawks.. one stock in 7 1/2" and the other in a little less than 4".. both .44 mag. These are very handy and versitile guns. I can hit a 5 gallon bucket at 100 yards easily with the "pocket" 4".
The .45 is for fun. very reliable and accurate enough at 25 yards... a little weak on penetration but handy... I mostly have it so that people who want to "shoot a .45" will have a chance to.
deja... cutting away the front of the triggerguard is a bad idea. the remaining guard will bend and jam the trigger... In chicago people wore gloves and a cutaway guard allowed them to get their finger on the trigger. I don't go places that are cold.
lazs
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NP, lazs. But where's a picture of that 1911? I want to know what one of those looks like.
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The 1911 is in the bottom right hand corner of the pic.
And Lazs... I don't need a lecture on functionality. If you're going to have a gun that looks so much like a saturday night special, you should go all out. ;)
I have a few thousand rounds of experience on a high standard too. We used them in the AF for target competitions (.45 and 9mm for combat comptetition). They were excellent as far as accuracy went, but I never liked the way the breech was layed out. We'd get alot of rounds that would wedge between the clip and the breech because of that harsh edge and the soft lead. It wasn't that often (about 1 out of 100), but it was often enough you'd notice it. Of course, the ruger mk series suffered a bit more on the ejection (stovepiping) but chambered better. Of course, in both cases, the mass produced aspect of the .22 round was more the culprit than anything else.
MiniD
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Hold on... we're talking about five guns, but only four pictures. Lazs mentions 2 rugers (4" and 7½"), a .22 auto and a .45. But MiniD says the 1911 is in there. That's 5.
I thought the .22 would be the dark coloured one, the .45 at bottom right, and the .44 7" the one with the wooden handle, and the 4" ruger the top right.
Hell what do I know about guns. Good job I never need one. :eek: ;)
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A "Colt Model 1911" is a .45 caliber pistol.
MiniD
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deja... yu probly shot the high standard 'miltary' probly had an exposed hammer too... at any rate... the "sportking" pictured is different than most high standards (note the takedown latch under the barrel lug) it has a different feed ramp and is utterly reliable with anything but hollow points.
I do need some explanation tho.. What is a "saturday night special"? The 1911 I like to think of as a "mexican drug lord special" but it is merely an "honor guard" U.S. military 45 (they use the nickle plated ones) with iveory grips.
The ruger has the hammer despured so it wont catch on clothing and the ivory grips are the right shape and texture for me in a .44... the rubber grips are terrible... cause you to regrip every shot... bet they quit making em when people wise up.. Wood is good but smooth plastic or ivory stays cool and is more consistent. Is that what you mean by "saturday night special"?
beetle... you got em right... if you show up I will let you try them all.
lazs
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Saturday night specials refer to .38s that usually have the trigger guard cut off with tape around the grip and trigger to prevent fingerprints. Common gun of older gangs (more 50s-70s). Its just the first thing I thought of when I saw that 4" gun with ivory handles.
I'll post a pic of my pistol collection when I get home. Mine's not too disimilar... except no .45. :( Though... I did anounce to my wife that 3 or 4 more guns were needed before I could call myself even remotely satisfied with my collection. A 1911 was one of them.
MiniD
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deja... in the .30's it was common to cut the front of the trigger guard away on 1917 colt and smith .45 revolvers in the belief that it made them quicker to get into action... Mcgivern and many of the top oistoleros of the time all tried this with the end result as I have described.
Oh.... I have a mint 1917 smith in .45 (takes full moon clips) and several other handguns. Just thought that those pictured were good basic ones that most would enjoy owning and they cover about 90% of all the handgun needs I can think of.
lazs
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OK, I admit - I'm confused by all this 1911/.45 stuff. Was 1911 the first year a particular model of .45 was produced? I remember in For a Fistful of Dollars/For a Few Dollars More, Clint had a .45. But this was way before 1911.
Hehe, me shoot of all those guns? OK... I might have to bandage my wrist afterwards!
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(http://blindkat.fateback.com/lrdg/M1911a1x.jpg)
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Beetle, during the US campaign against the Moros in Philippines, decided that it's .38 caliber revolver was inadequate. So they decided they needed a .45 caliber semi-automatic. Colt's pistol, designed by John Browning won the competition. It was formally adopted by the US Army in 1911. It was then called a Colt Government Model, 1911 or M1911.
History of the 1911. (http://www.m1911.org/full_history.htm)
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/dune/Colt%20.45%20(small).jpg
Here are the two pistols I shoot most. The one on top is my Colt Government Model, Series 70 .45 ACP. It has a slide and trigger job by J. Hoag, a Swenson extended safety and the grip safety pinned down. The other is a S&W Model 66 in .357 Mag. The wheel gun is the one that is in the house for home defense. The Gov't model I've had for 16 years and is like an extension of my arm ;)
(http://www.smith-wesson.com/Products/firearms/images/small/sw163070.jpg)
This is the gun I carry most, for obvious reasons. It's a S&W Model 638 five-shot revolver in .38. It's small and easy to shoot. True, it's not the cannon my Gov't Model is, but it's much easier to carry.
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beetle... don't feel bad. even a lot of guys who claim to know a lot about guns mix up the .45 colt and the .45 acp... In some westerns you will see the .45 colt. This was a rimmed cartrige designed for black powder. It shot a 255 grain slug at around 800 fps. the 45 acp or automatidc colt pistol is a much shorter "rimless" cartrige that was allways a smokeless powder round hence... it is shorter...less bulk needed for smokeless. the Clint Eastwood 45 colt round was used in the single action colt revolver and several other contemporary guns of the late 1800's
both cartriges are still produced but the 45 colt is now only offered in a smokeless version and is very popular for a sport called "cowboy action shooting". I don't like the round because it is ineffiefient but it is the base for the mighty 454 casull.
You brits had the 455 webley round which is about the equivelent of both of the others... Its stopping power was revered by british troops against the likes of the zulu.
lazs
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(http://www.dbstaines.com/images/handguns.jpg)
OK.. here's my .357, .40 and 9mm. The 9mm was given to my by my Grandfather who removed it from a German in WWII. It is one of the few of this type that actually had the Nazi Proofs stamped on it. Its basically a Browning Hi-Power.
MiniD
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use the force, young jedi....
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/wwiiol/scans/lahti_20mm.jpg)
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Cool ! A finnish anti-tank rifle, recognized it from CM .
What is a gun license ?
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deja.. i can tell ya where to get some ivory polymer grips for that ruger to replace those hideous two tone golf shoe ones...
lazs
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After reading this thread I decided to disassemble my Ruger P90DC .45acp and give it a good cleaning. My God! The thing was FILTHY! I might have shot it 4 or 500 times before it could have jammed. Never bring a Pea Shooter to a GUN fight, and always load Black Talons! Your target will thank you for ending it quickly.
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Originally posted by Suave
Cool ! A finnish anti-tank rifle, recognized it from CM .
What is a gun license ?
A permit, you cant buy or handle guns here unless you have it.
They question a lot of your acquaintances and search your record.
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I've had firearms almost all of my life. Never had a permit for them though .
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Originally posted by lazs2
deja.. i can tell ya where to get some ivory polymer grips for that ruger to replace those hideous two tone golf shoe ones...
lazs
Nah... no need to be labled as pimp daddy d.
MiniD
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Lazs - thank you for your forbearance!
About single action and double action. I'll reread that long email you sent me, but I can't do it just now as it's on my other system.
Reading this, I've been led to understand that "single action" is like a .357 Magnum revolver - the only gun I've ever "played" with. There was only one thing to do: Pull the trigger. As the trigger was pulled, the hammer would come back and the chamber would revolve to bring the next round into alignment with the barrel. Then the hammer would fall. The only variation would be to manually cock the hammer which would reduce the load on the trigger (and revolve the chamber, bringing the next round into position?) So what's double action? Is that a gun which needs to be primed manually for firing after each shot, hence two actions? Just wondering, because in one of those Clint Eastwood dollars films, he shoots about four of Ramone's men, and they didn't even have time to blink. He could not have done that if having to cock the weapon each time.
That leads on to something else. In some cowboy westerns, I have seen a technique which they referred to as "fanning". All rounds were discharged by the gunman knocking the hammer back with his other hand, presumably while keeping the trigger squeezed. Would this have been a technique to enable rapid fire, overcoming the limitation of having to manually prime the gun for each shot? Would this be necessary with single action weapons? Is this possible only with revolvers? After reading Lazs's explanation about the mechanics of a semi-auto, fanning would not seem to be applicable to that type of gun.
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You have it backwards. Double action: noodles the hammer and releases it. Single action: Just releases the hammer.
MiniD
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Think about the old cowboy guns they had to cock then with there thumb for each shot, they would not cock the hammer with the trigger only release, hence single action (of the trigger)
Double action means the trigger will cock the hammer (also turn the cylinder) and release the trigger hence double action i.e. more modern guns.
Auto or automatic means the gun will auto load and cock the hammer with each firing soy you only have to bull the trigger.
Now we have single and double action autos, the colt 1911 is a type of single action auto. This type needs to be carried with the hammer cocked and locked (with the safety) as it has three safeties this is ok and it is NOT safe to carry with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. The safeties are the thumb, the grip, and the slide battery trigger interconnect.
The double action auto IS safe to carry with the chamber loaded and the hammer down, the first pull of the trigger is longer and a bit stiffer as this is what noodles the weapon for the first time. After the first shot the weapon will load and cock itself so subsequent shots will now be single action as the trigger only has to release the hammer each time until the mag. is empty.
Hope this helps
Scott
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yep... plus... there is the glock system and some of the double action only self loaders. gunmakers are an imaginative group. lotsa times they create complex solutions for nonexistent problems... like for instance the british developed a auto cocking revolver... the frame was split so that the top barrel and cylinder portion slid back on the lower grip and trigger group portion on recoil... the cylinder was groved in such a way that it revolved as it went back... this put a fresh round under the hammer which had also been cocked by the recoil.
lazs