Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Habu on April 03, 2003, 12:35:50 PM
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Someone on an ultralight list I belong to posted this. I did not pull it off the original news site so I cannot be 100% certain it is a true story, but it appears to be.
Iraqi ultralights spotted over U.S. troops
By Sean D. Naylor
Times staff writer
CENTRAL IRAQ
At least two Iraqi ultralight aircraft flew over a patch of desert
Friday where thousands of U.S. soldiers and several command and control facilities
are located. The appearance of enemy aircraft over U.S. positions is especially
alarming because the military believes ultralight aircraft of the type spotted Friday
may be used to deliver chemical or biological weapons.
There is one other alarming possibility, according to briefings given intelligence
officers here: Craft like that might be used in kamikaze suicide attacks, a
possibility driven home Saturday morning when an apparent suicide bomber blew up a
car at a checkpoint manned by soldiers from this same outfit, the 3rd Infantry
Division (Mechanized). U.S. Central Command confirmed the report and said four
American soldiers were killed. It had no reports of any wounded.
Maj. Gen. Victor E. "Gene" Renuart Jr., director of operations for Central Command,
was quick to label the bombing as an act of terrorism. "That kind of an activity is a
symbol of an organization that is beginning to get a little bit desperate," he added.
The appearance of the aircraft caught the Central Command off guard. Saturday
afternoon, 24 hours after the craft had flown over the U.S. position, Renuart told a
press briefing that the Iraqis have "not flown an airplane, they have not had the
capability to fly an airplane, they've not shown any inclination to fly an airplane."
He added, "We keep a very close eye on the Iraqi airfields. We've kept them closed,
we intend to continue to keep them closed. We're concerned about any possible use of
an airplane to conduct terror or military operations and we watch that very, very
carefully."
Both of the small, prop-driven aircraft spotted here evaded a tight air defense
system and flew over an assembly area packed with helicopters, tanks, Bradley
fighting vehicles other military equipment. They flew off before the anti-aircraft
crews could get permission to shoot them down.
Soldiers at a command center were the first to raise the alarm about enemy aircraft
after they looked up about 3 p.m. Friday and spotted an ultralight flying overhead,
according to Capt. Ruel Smith. Those soldiers passed the word to Smith, who commands
C Battery, 1st Battalion, 3rd Air Defense Artillery Regiment. Smith's battery is
attached to 3rd Infantry's 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry Regiment.
"Once we got the report we oriented all our fire units in that direction, and then
one of our units got eyes on it," said Smith, whose battery consists mostly of
Linebacker systems, which are Bradley fighting vehicles mounted with Stinger
anti-aircraft missiles. Meanwhile, a report came in of a second ultralight over a
different part of the assembly area.
Staff Sgt. Billy Armstrong, a Linebacker squad leader, was scanning the skies keenly.
"We got the report that a possible ultralight paraglider would be coming close to the
area," he said. "My driver noticed an aircraft off to the east unlike any he'd ever
seen before."
Armstrong raised his binoculars to verify what his driver was reporting. About two
miles away he saw a tiny aircraft ? with a wingspan of about 15 to 20 feet ? being
steered by a pilot sitting on a seat beneath the wings, "with a small engine behind
his backside." The "grayish black" ultralight was about 900 feet above the ground,
flying in a straight line "as slow as a helicopter would," Armstrong said. The
realization that he and his troops might be about to shoot at an enemy aircraft hit
the squad leader hard. The dominance of U.S. air power in recent years has all but
eliminated the threat to U.S. ground forces from enemy aircraft.
(Continued below)
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"I was thinking, 'Oh ****! It's the first time in my 12 years that an air defense
role is gonna be played in a situation where we actually had the possibility of
firing a Stinger missile,' " Armstrong recalled. But it was not to be.
Over the battalion radio net, Smith heard Avenger air defense systems ? Humvees
mounted with Stingers ? also being cued to the target. But even though at least one
of the ultralights was in the targets of his gunners, procedures here require that a
higher command, in this case V Corps, gives the approval to shoot. The aircraft
disappeared beyond the horizon while that permission was being sought.
Armstrong and his soldiers were "very frustrated," he said. Smith acknowledged that
the failure to attack it was frustrating.
"If I had authority to shoot it myself, we would have engaged it," he said. But he
added that he understood why he was required to seek approval from a three-star
headquarters before shooting at an enemy aircraft that was virtually overhead. "A lot
of it has to do with cluttered skies," Smith said. "There are a lot of friendly
aircraft in these skies."
The crowd of helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft flying through this airspace
probably accounted for the ultralight pilots' ability to fly over such a sensitive
assembly area before being detected, according to Smith. The mass of aircraft showing
up on radar screens makes it difficult for soldiers watching those screens to
distinguish, for instance, an Iraqi ultralight aircraft from a small U.S. Army
helicopter, he said.
"It moves slow, and it has a prop, so it looks to us like a helicopter ? and there's
many, many, many helicopters here," he said.
"There are more aircraft here than I've ever seen on a radar screen in my life,"
Smith said, "98 percent of which we positively know are friendly."
Once the ultralights disappeared over the horizon, the Army units here did not give
up the chase. Smith requested and received permission from 3rd ID to continue the
hunt, and three Linebackers headed out and drove two-and-a-half miles without
catching sight of the aircraft. Two 3rd Infantry Division Apaches were also diverted
to search for the aircraft, Smith said.
About 30 minutes later came a report that OH-58D Kiowa Warrior helicopters of the
101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) had seen an ultralight 25 miles south of here,
Smith said. But the 101st helicopters apparently did not follow the ultralight, for
reasons Smith said he could not explain.
The appearance of the ultralight aircraft over this vital rear area did not come as a
complete shock to intelligence and air defense officers here. In December about
"half-a-dozen" ultralight aircraft were also spotted flying over two U.S. military
camps in Kuwait, according to Capt. Jeff Ryals, 3-7 Cav's intelligence officer. U.S.
forces failed to shoot the aircraft down in that instance as well.
That "was a test to see if they could violate our airspace without getting shot
down," Ryals said.
Smith said he had been briefed on the threat posed by the small aircraft, "although
we were told to expect a slightly different type of vehicle, which was a paraglider."
The difference between the two is that a paraglider has a steerable parachute canopy
while an ultralight has a stable framed wing, he added.
Reports briefed to officers here indicate that the Iraqi regime tried to buy at least
100 ultralights from an overseas company. But intelligence indicates that only about
50 have been delivered, Ryals said.
He listed three ways the Iraqis could use the ultralights: strategic reconnaissance
of Allied positions, spreading chemical or biological weapons, or loading the
aircraft with high-explosives and using them in Kamikaze-style suicide attacks. The
aircraft were probably being flown by pilots drawn from one of the paramilitary
forces loyal to the Hussein regime, or by Iraqi special forces, Ryals said.
"All the [Iraqi] special forces missions we've seen in the last 10 years have been
strategic reconnaissance on motorcycles or infiltrators dressed as Bedouins," he
said. "So it would be a new tactic if special forces used these [ultralights] for
strategic reconnaissance."
The flights over this area yesterday were probably for the purpose of strategic
reconnaissance, "scouting out the sexiest targets to strike with surface-to-surface
missiles," Ryals said.
Authorities here have made two key changes in the wake of the yesterday's
overflights. "Something is being worked on right now to help someone looking at a
radar air picture determine which track is the ultralight," Smith said. And if
another ultralight appears overhead, Smith and other air defense commanders now have
the authority to shoot on sight.
Although none could be certain, officers here believe this is the first time an enemy
aircraft has flown over American ground forces since the Korean War.
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When did someone post this to the list? 3 days ago?
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Well if a Blackhawk can be brought down with small arms fire imagine what is in store for an ultra-light pilot. The soldiers now have permission to shoot on sight.
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I scaned the first 2 pages of posts for the story before posting it. I did not see it so if it was already posted it dropped off the front pages very quickly.
I find this very interesting as it seems that the sophisticated radar systems the US is using do not detect powered parachutes. The engine on the chute is metal as is the cage surrounding the prop. The prop is probably plastic and the pilot and chute would have no metal on them.
The only way they knew the thing was around was by the reports they got from eye witnesses.
Very interesting. I fly ultralights and know people who fly these type of aircraft as well.
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you know an enemy is truly evil when they start rolling out an airforce that was made in some guys garage.
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suicide attack... on an ultra light...
lol you guys are too much.
I could bring one down with a bow and arrow.
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That is one plane I would never fly. Can you imagine 200' agl at 25 mph no armor no weapons and a bunch of marines with m16s under you. Can you say Pinata.
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reminds me of that simpsons where sideshow bob suicides the wright brothers plane into krusty the clown.
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Originally posted by Animal
suicide attack... on an ultra light...
lol you guys are too much.
I could bring one down with a bow and arrow.
You probably could if you were in the right place at the right time.
My ultralight can fly up as high as the oxygen level in the air lets me go. I am sure that if you are up that high then you would much more visible than these two guys where who seemed to stay very close to the ground.
Regarding an attack, if they had aerosol disperants and were blowing anthrax spores along as they flew the troops below would have been in big trouble.
It is kind of scary that the US can detect an incoming Scud and shoot it down but these two little aircraft can come in unhindered and leave as well.
I wonder what they were doing? What was thier mission?
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Modern ultralights (up to 450 kg) are real aircraft controlled via all three axis, with >100 hp engines and cruise speed of 200 knots...
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What ultralight specs are you looking at? I've flown a Powered parachute (35mph no matter what. up down straight you're going 35mph and you like it or else) and a Challenger II and Challenger II Special. The fastest ive been in either of these is 110mph (not knots).
I no longer do that because i like to think im smarter than some of the nutjobs (hi habu!!) who fly some of these tissue paper and toothpick ultralights out there.
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Ok, 200 knots was a bit too much, but just a bit ;)
Try one of these, many more out there. Just what google found:
http://www.microleve.com.br/produtos/2000rg.htm (cruise 124 knots)
http://www.volny.cz/ivanovaero/angl.ww023.htm (cruise 134 knots)
http://www.bredow-web.de/ILA_2002/Kleinflugzeuge/Evolution/evolution.html (cruise 145 knots)
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ok, 1 more try
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-31-ultralights_x.htm
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Ah hem...would you fly in ANY of those sir? the first looks like a Cutlass RG (Cessna 172 with Retracts that are more quirky than a flamingo's legs) the 2nd looked like a small flying coffin. the third looks like kind of an airplane with its main gear so close together you could blow at it on one side and it will tip over.
::shudders::
Wonder how many fatal accidents went undocumented...
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Hmmm. I did not know we had a resident expert on all things flying here. What credentials do you have Mr Golfer? Degrees? Advanced degrees?
You seem to have a big mouth and loud opinions. I guess that makes you an expert right?
In Canada Ultralight pilots take lessons and must pass written tests just like GA pilots have to. Our license requirements are a little less stringent in areas like the medical.
To own fly and maintain an ultralight in the most safe manner takes money, knowledge and practice. It is a good thing you decided to leave the sport. You seem to be lacking in some areas.
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I hit a golfer with a roll of toilet paper (and it was the commercial scratchy stuff not that soft stuff) from my ultralight once.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I hit a golfer with a roll of toilet paper (and it was the commercial scratchy stuff not that soft stuff) from my ultralight once.
lazs
A terrorist!!!!
How many Toilet-paper-guided-bombs can load an ultralight?
;)
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Originally posted by Golfer
Ah hem...would you fly in ANY of those sir?
I would certainly like to give them a try. The sad thing is price per hour isn't really much cheaper than in small GA aircraft. Doing 150 knots with not much aircraft around probably is big fun though.
the first looks like a Cutlass RG (Cessna 172 with Retracts that are more quirky than a flamingo's legs) the 2nd looked like a small flying coffin. the third looks like kind of an airplane with its main gear so close together you could blow at it on one side and it will tip over.
::shudders::
They sure don't need as tough landing gear as more heavy aircraft. Also touch down at 20 knots (or whatever) shouldn't be much of a problem no matter how crappy the landing gear might be.
For saftey issues... those carry a chute than can save the aircaft including it's passengers...
Wonder how many fatal accidents went undocumented...
It just depends on which country you're flying in.
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Habu, it's different in the U.S.
To operate an ultralight all that is required as far as certification goes is a drivers license. FAR Part 103 basically lets airplanes that weigh less than 254 lbs empty and carry five gallons of fuel or less and is not capable of more than 55kts at FULL power in level flight with a stall speed of no more than 24 kts.
Obviously the definitions in Canada and the U.S. are different as none of the aircraft ccvi mentioned would be part 103 legal and thus would be labeled as "Expiremental".
In addition under 103.7 it says "Operators of ultralight vehicles are not required to meet any aeronautical knowledge, age, ore experience requirements to operate those vehicles or to have airman or medical certificates" So the mere fact you have to have at least some training in Canada means your sport is inherently safer than that in the U.S.
As far as my credentials right now im a certificated pilot in the U.S. with an additional 200-250 hours i would estimate since I was 12 and made my first flight in a powered parchute, with an instructor believe it or not. I never did look into becoming an ultralight instructor when i became of age mostly because we sold the powered chute and i hadn't kept a logbook. Time would be divided up between Powered Parachutes and two versions of the Quad City kit Challenger II and Challenger II Special, which is simply a slightly faster clipped wing version of the previous. A vast majority of the time was in the parawing, i'd say 170 hours, while i had a more accurate record of the Challenger since i paid by the hobbs-hour and that was closer to 55. As far as operating irresponsibly or unsafely? never in the parawing and only some minor hedge-hopping (if you would even call it that) in the Challenger. so 10 hours dual and was able to use the airplane solo.
Barring some unforseen event I've given up flying ultralights or homebuilts simply because I know too many names of people I used to know. In the last year and a half in fact two people from the AH squadron have had family members crash in homebuilts, as well as a neighbor was paralyzed in a crash involving landing gear failure of one of the mains and broke his back when the aircraft (loose definition) rolled.
ccvi...
I never said the landing gear looked not rugged enough, simply that the airplanes main landing gear were placed closely together and its more likely to roll if caught by a gust or is turned even a hair too sharply than intended. If you ask me though doing 150kts with aluminum tubing and stits around me...well i'll just say ill search elsewhere for my kicks.
If you DO want to get into it, you can purchase your own challenger II kit (i have no complaints about this airplane, well built and in its own right without being lopped into the "ultralight" can of worms) completed with good instrumentation and a BRS (Ballistic Recovery System) parachute for <$16,000 USD(2 place "trainer") and as little as $11,000 USD(part 103 legal) which can be assembled in less than 40 hours. I havent built one on my own but I did have a hand assembling one when it came to fitting control surfaces and that certainly wasnt difficult. Rental costs if you're lucky enough to have one around to rent or even borrow, will be less than $40/hr, and if you own one maintaining and if you so desire insuring one will be significantly less if you want to factor in fuel/oil only (it will run fine on regular auto gas) you're looking at 10 dollars or less an hour. Build a simple hangar in your yard if you're fortunate enough to have 500 feet of backyard and store it there, that will save you the trouble of needing to pay as much as 250-300/month on a hangar at an airport.
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My Ultralight has a Rotax 912S (100hp ) engine and I am going to have a BRS system installed this summer.
I learned to fly trikes by taking lessons with two instructors. 5 hours with a guy in the US who was very experenced but a bit of a loose cannon and 20 hours with a guy in Canada who had 1000's of hours and does everything by the book.
My training included radio procedures, circuits, emergency procedures and of course lots of takeoffs and landings.
When I get into a proper circuit at the local airport and use proper radio procedures I am amazed at how many times I have seen GA pilots flying the circuits wrong and using terrible radio proceedures.
An ultralight license in Canada gives you the abiltiy to fly a C-150. In Canada we have less fatalities for people with the ultra light license than we do with GA pilots. A GA license in Canada is no guarentee the pilot is good.
Ultralights and homebuilts can be very dangerous if you do not know what you are doing. Join the EAA, COPA or AOPA and attend training seminars, talk to others who fly why you do. Visit Oshkosh and talk to the experts. Flying is as safe as you want to make it.
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Originally posted by Habu
Hmmm. I did not know we had a resident expert on all things flying here. What credentials do you have Mr Golfer? Degrees? Advanced degrees?
You seem to have a big mouth and loud opinions. I guess that makes you an expert right?
In Canada Ultralight pilots take lessons and must pass written tests just like GA pilots have to. Our license requirements are a little less stringent in areas like the medical.
To own fly and maintain an ultralight in the most safe manner takes money, knowledge and practice. It is a good thing you decided to leave the sport. You seem to be lacking in some areas.
I didn't take this personal before but reading this really gets under my skin now. Habu please email (nemypoo@aol.com) me and indicate its you in the subject line.
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Originally posted by Golfer
I no longer do that because i like to think im smarter than some of the nutjobs (hi habu!!) who fly some of these tissue paper and toothpick ultralights out there.
Funny that is just how I felt when I read that.
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It all depends on the definition of ultralight.
For you it's no licence, no airfield, no anything required, every freedom except limited to extremely light aircraft
Here it's license around $4500 (vs. PPL $6500), airfield required, and a C150 can be registered as ultralight. drawback: license can't be upgraded.
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Originally posted by icemaw
That is one plane I would never fly. Can you imagine 200' agl at 25 mph no armor no weapons and a bunch of marines with m16s under you. Can you say Pinata.
just like in 'a fish called Wanda' where the guy drives a steamroller at 3 mph to run the guy over, lol
iraqi: 'die die' as he speeds toward his target....
marine looks up and sees a dot in the distance....
iraqi 'For saddam aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....'
marine looks up and see a dot in the distance...
10 minutes later the marine sees a small craft with a man cursing and out of breath at the controls.........
black hawk starts up its rotors to go look and inadvertantly blows the iraqi microlight back they way he came.
iraq: (full throttle and going backwards)'Aw bollocks!' :D