Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on April 04, 2003, 09:31:06 AM
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"It is now pretty well established, that there are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may to destroy the Federal Government and build up that of the traitors and rebels. There were such soldiers at Manassas, and they are probably there still. There is a Negro in the army as well as in the fence, and our Government is likely to find it out before the war comes to an end. That the Negroes are numerous in the rebel army, and do for that army its heaviest work, is beyond question.
Rising above vulgar prejudice, the slaveholding rebel accepts the aid of the black man as readily as that of any other."
"...that General Jackson in a slave state fought side by side with Negroes at New Orleans, and like a true man, despising meanness, he bore testimony to their bravery..."
"Why does the Government reject the Negro? Is he not a man?... If persons so humble as we can be allowed to speak to the President of the United States, we should ask him if this dark and terrible hour of the nation's extremity is a time for consulting a mere vulgar and unnatural prejudice?"
-- Frederick Douglas, black abilitionist, former slave
“Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number (Confederate troops). Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc. and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army.”
-- Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the US Sanitary Commission, 1862 while observing General “Stonewall” Jackson’s army in Frederick, Maryland
"some, if not most, Black southerners would support their country ... demonstrating it's possible to hate the system of slavery and love one's country."
-- Roland Young, black historian
"During my research, I came across instances where Black men stated they were soldiers, but you can plainly see where 'soldier' is crossed out and 'body servant' inserted, or 'teamster' on pension applications."
-- Erwin L. Jordan, Jr, Historian
"When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South."
-- Dr. Leonard Haynes, an African-American professor at Southern University
"None will deny that our servants are more worthy of respect than the motley hordes which come against us." "Bad faith [to black Confederates] must be avoided as an indelible dishonor."
-- The Richmond Sentinel, Mar 24, 1864
"As the war came to an end, the Confederacy took progressive measures to build back up its army. The creation of the Confederate States Colored Troops, copied after the segregated northern colored troops, came too late to be successful. Had the Confederacy been successful, it would have created the world's largest armies (at the time) consisting of black soldiers... This would have given the future of the Confederacy a vastly different appearance than what modern day racist or anti-Confederate liberals conjecture. Not only did Jefferson Davis envision black Confederate veterans receiving bounty lands for their service, there would have been no future for slavery after the goal of 300,000 armed black CSA veterans came home after the war."
"In 1864, President Jefferson Davis approved a plan that proposed the emancipation of slaves, in return for the official recognition of the Confederacy by Britain and France. France showed interest but Britain refused."
-- Scott Williams
Georgia state flag - contains the previous one on the bottom
(http://www.50states.com/flag/image/nunst090.gif)
Georgia state flag 1956-2001
(http://images.qualityflags.com/10110860s.jpg)
Mississippi state flag
(http://images.qualityflags.com/10110340s.jpg)
miko
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How wonderful....
There were Southerners who respected their SLAVES.
:rolleyes:
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Not only did Jefferson Davis envision black Confederate veterans receiving bounty lands for their service, there would have been no future for slavery after the goal of 300,000 armed black CSA veterans came home after the war."
Davis was the biggest racist in the South at the time.. I doubt he would have actually partitioned land for those he held in such low regard.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
How wonderful....
There were Southerners who respected their SLAVES.
:rolleyes:
..."R.E.S.P.E.C.T, that is what it means to me... ;)
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Well, being from Ga, and living there, it made me sick to see them change the flag. It is part of our history..... It upsets me to see black ppl complaning about somthing that took place along time ago, that they were treated unfairly and unjust..... That maybe so, but that means that it is ok to have an "all back college", or an "all black tv station" I really think some ppl ne to re-think the whole "were being oppresed" thing.
Atlanta is 80% black, I went to college at Ga State Univ in down town Atl. It always amazed me how some ppl are quick to scream they are the victium of racial profiling, or someone is treating them badly, becuz they are "black". When they themselves are probably just as much, if not more racial than they person they are accusing. I think if it is ok to have all black colleges, TV stations, and gatherings. Things that are all being called "part of our history" then the state of Ga should be able to keep our flag. It is just as much apart of history as anything else. We can not be selective in the learnings of history. I dont think it is fair for anyone to be treated a certian way due to color or creed. The only one of us here that can claim to be a TRUE american are the Indians, they were here first. So color shouldnt matter. We have learned nothing in 100 years.
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B
it wasn't that long ago actually, there are people alive today, granted old people, whos parents and grandparents were slaves.
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You don't hear the American Indian crying about how they got screwed out of there land do you.
My point is the Indian got screwed a lot more than the blacks did.
I am not trying to justift slavery! far from it!
But to this day the Indian is still screwed!!!!!!
Look at it this way we all know of thw washington redskins right!!
Redskin is a slang term for American Indian.
How do you think that makes them feel???
Now try this out out.
New football team the New York niggas!
You get my point now.
It's ok to be ashamed of our past but we must look beyond the past to the future.
There is NO room for Racism In MY AMERICA!
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hawk220: it wasn't that long ago actually, there are people alive today, granted old people, whos parents and grandparents were slaves.
Under "stars and stripes" flag as well - after the 7 out of 15 slave states secceded from the unuon, during the War of Northern Agression, when 3 slave states remained in the Union, after the Emansipation Proclamation that did not free the slaves in Nothern States.
Should we junk the US "stars and stripes" flag in favor of some non-offensive one? Otherwise people will forever refuse to believe that we object slavery. Right?
miko
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miko
im sure there are a lot of people that are offended by the Stars and Stripes
but the North and its flag won
had it been the other way around, im sure the stars and bars and slavery would be everywhere.
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anyone who flies a rebel flag in these parts usually has an IQ of 3.
sometimes the entire family may have an IQ of 6.
you'd have a better conversation with their dog...
the rebel flag is a sign of ignorance. I haven't found anyone who flies one who is not a racist and still thinks the freed negro is the source of all his problems.
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Hawk- I really doubt there's anyone alive today was a slave... they'd be around a 150 years old (actually older if they were actual slaves).. so basically, it's impossibly.
The Native Americans do indeed complain about a lot of things: The Washington Redskins, for example, have changed to a "less offensive" Arrow Head on their helmet as opposed to the actual Indian face in war paint. They were also lobbying for the change of the name for several years, changing the helmet's logo was a compromise.
If you look, you'll see just how much the Native Americans have complained about our culture using them.
They just get less press because it isn't hip 'n cool and uber just for equal rights activists to be vocal about... I don't even think equal rights activists pay attention to Native Americans complaints. Just one of the many reasons I don't take equal right activists seriously.
-SW
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raise the iq to 10, just be nice eagler but I am agree lol :)
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2 cents: Im not a proponents of slavery, obviously, but I disagree with the changing of the various state flags that include the stars and bars. I dont think slavery is what the flag stands for.
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Wulfe
there are people alive today, granted old people, whos parents and grandparents were slaves
'whos parents and grandparents were slaves'
but you're right, they would be 150 yrs old..but in the larger scheme, that wasn't that awful long ago either.
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Damn it, I keep misreading things... I must be down dyslexia coming with.
-SW
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Platform of the Alabama Democracy
Adopted at Montgomery, January, 1860
1. Resolved by the Democracy of the State of Alabama, in Convention assembled, That holding all issues and principles upon which they have heretofore affiliated and acted with the National Democratic party to be inferior in dignity and importance to the great question of slavery, they content themselves with a general re-affirmance of the Cincinnati Platform as to such issues, and also endorse said platform as to slavery, together with the following resolutions:
2. Resolved further, That we re-affirm so much of the first resolution of the Platform adopted in Convention by the Democracy of this State, on the 8th of January, 1856, as relates to the subject of slavery, to wit: "The unqualified right of the people of the slaveholding States to the Protection of their property in the States, in the Territories, and in the wilderness in which Territorial Governments are as yet unorganized."
3. Resolved further, That in order to meet and clear away all obstacles to a full enjoyment of this right in the Territories, we re-affirm the principle of the 9th resolution of the Platform adopted in Convention by the Democracy of this State on the 14th of February, 1848, to wit: "That it is the duty of the General Government, by all proper legislation, to secure an entry into those Territories to all the citizens of the United States, together with their property of every description, and that the same should remain protected by the United States while the Territories are under its authority."
4. Resolved further, That the Constitution of the United States is a compact between sovereign and co-equal states, united upon the basis of perfect equality of rights and privileges.
5. Resolved further, That the Territories of the United States are common property, in which the States have equal rights, and to which the citizens of every State may rightfully emigrate with their slaves or other property, recognised as such in any of the States of the Union, or by the Constitution of the United States.
6. Resolved further, That the Congress of the United States has no power to abolish slavery in the Territories, or to prohibit its introduction into any of them.
7. Resolved further, That the Territorial Legislatures, created by the legislation of Congress, have no power to abolish slavery, or to prohibit the introduction of the same, or to impair, by unfriendly legislation, the security and full enjoyment of the same within the Territories; and such constitutional power certainly does not belong to the people of the Territories in any capacity, before, in the exercise of a lawful authority, they form a Constitution preparatory to admission as a State into the Union; and their action in the exercise of such lawful authority certainly cannot operate or take effect before their actual admission as a State into the Union.
8. Resolved further, That the principles enunciated by Chief Justice Taney, in his opinion in the Dred Scott case, deny to the Territorial Legislature the power to destroy or impair, by any legislation whatever, the right of property in slaves, and maintain it to be the duty of Federal Government, in all of its departments, to protect the rights of the owner of such property in the Territories; and the principles so declared are hereby asserted to be the rights of the South, and the South should maintain them.
9. Resolved further, That we hold all of the foregoing propositions to contain cardinal principles -- true in themselves, and just and proper, and necessary for the safety of all that is dear to us, and we do hereby instruct our Delegates to the Charleston Convention to present them for the calm consideration and approval of that body -- from whose justice and patriotism we anticipate their adoption.
10. Resolved further, That our Delegates to the Charleston Convention are hereby expressly instructed to insist that said Convention shall adopt a platform of principles, recognising distinctly the rights of the South as asserted in the foregoing resolutions; and if the said National Convention shall refuse to adopt, in substance, the propositions embraced in the preceding resolutions, prior to nominating candidates, our Delegates to said Convention are hereby positively instructed to withdraw therefrom.
11. Resolved further, That our Delegates to the Charleston Convention shall cast the vote of Alabama as a unit, and a majority of our Delegates shall determine how the vote of this State shall be given.
12. Resolved further, That an Executive Committee, to consist of one from each Congressional district, be appointed, whose duty it shall be, in the event that our Delegates withdraw from the Charleston Convention, in obedience to the 10th resolution, to call a Convention of the Democracy of Alabama, to meet at an early day to consider what is best to be done.
All about States Rights....
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Unroll your eyes. This has already been hashed out in another thread.
Also, don't forget the Bill of Rights, Article X:
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Reread your highlighted parts again in view of Article X.
Consider this in view of what State law allowed/disallowed that was beyond Federal power by the provision of Article X.
Done. Out. Said it all in a previous thread.
Ta.
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Hashed out possibly.
However I still feel it is disingenuous to couch the Confederacy around a States Rights argument when the "Right" they were most concerned with was the right to keep and own people as property!
Sure, its about States Rights and the 10th Amendment, but the root of that argument is evil.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
All about States Rights....
Originally posted by midnight Target
Sure, its about States Rights and the 10th Amendment, but the root of that argument is evil.
Make up yer mind......
:D
Don't think I've seen anyone here say it wasn't an evil. If there was one flaw in the Constitution, it was that they didn't abolish it right then and there.
However, they didn't do that, did they? And Article X gave the South the option.
Now, you sucked me back in and I'm embarassed at myself for posting.
Happy now? ;)
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Look at it this way we all know of thw washington redskins right!!
When I hear *Redskins* I immediately think of a football team, not American Indians. *Redskins* was a term used to describe the American Indians, however I can't recall the last time I heard it used in that manner.
I don't consider having sports teams Like the Atlanta BRAVES, Kansas City CHIEFS or Washington REDSKINS as derogatory towards the American Indian. I view it as more of a tribute to a brave and courageous people that fought for thier way of life against odds they had no hope of winning.
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Originally posted by Toad
Now, you sucked me back in and I'm embarassed at myself for posting.
Happy now? ;)
Yes thank you... you are free to go. :D
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confederate flag = traitors to the union and should be hanged. also they are all evil racists
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Originally posted by Elfie
When I hear *Redskins* I immediately think of a football team, not American Indians. *Redskins* was a term used to describe the American Indians, however I can't recall the last time I heard it used in that manner.
I don't consider having sports teams Like the Atlanta BRAVES, Kansas City CHIEFS or Washington REDSKINS as derogatory towards the American Indian. I view it as more of a tribute to a brave and courageous people that fought for thier way of life against odds they had no hope of winning.
Somehow I think the American Indian might see it differently.
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History 101.
The white man has screwed everybody at some point in history.
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washington redskin = if we changed the following =atlanta ******s = new york kikes = San Franciso Gooks = San Diego Spics = Kansas City Crackers. To the american Indian ,redskin is just as derogatory as all of the above names. This is the only sports team i have a problem with the name. They changed the bullets to wizards(that was stupid). Why cant they get rid of this bull****. I know we killed off most of the natives already so they dont really have the numbers to protest it.
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midnight Target: However I still feel it is disingenuous to couch the Confederacy around a States Rights argument when the "Right" they were most concerned with was the right to keep and own people as property!
They did not get invaded when they exercised their "right" to own slaves but when they exercised their right to leave the Union.
Yes, they were demanding self-determination - the freedom to run their country their own way, including doing evil things like slavery.
Did North demand abolition of slavery in the South as a condition to cease the hostilities?
Did North demand the abolition of slavery by the South after the South was defeated as a condition of the surrender and left it's sovereignity intact?
Did the North lift the occupation from the South once it was assured that the slavery is destroyed?
Are we going to stay in Iraq forever in order to deny them self-determination - including the possibility of electing another Hussein? Should we have kept Germany occupied since 1918?
Are we going to end up with a world state to make sure nobody could have a self-determination enabling them to do evil things?
miko
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Are we going to stay in Iraq forever in order to deny them self-determination - including the possibility of electing another Hussein?
Do ya think they will keep all those pictures of Hussein up on all those walls?
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midnight Target: Do ya think they will keep all those pictures of Hussein up on all those walls?
Some may unless we do not prevent them.
Most likely they will end up with another dictator who will have made his career by just such cleaning of traces of "Hussein's dark heritage" from the Iraq. We will supply him with mustard gas, of course - it's great for gettinng pictures off the walls.
miko
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Alabama was the one Southern state that was the deciding factor on secession. The vote on secession was fairly evenly divided. Cooperationist resolutions were narrowly down by a count of 53-46 in preliminary votes. Only after hearing of the secession decision made by Mississippi and Florida, did Alabama adopt an ordinance of secession by a vote of 61-39...still relatively close. The other states seceeded only after Alabama seceeded.
The issue was secession, and I believe the root of conflict was cultural in nature. Specifically, it was a clash between
Anglo-Saxons and Celts...the Celts being settled in the South. The two cultures simply didn't get along very well, and it came to a head when the North refused to let the South decide its own destiny.
Concerning slavery in the South during the 19th Century. I don't think you'll find anyone here on this board who thinks that was a good thing. Like an abusive spouse, who keeps bringing up past mistakes to belittle the other, there are some who enjoy immersion in conflict. I find stereotyping the South as a group of evil Simon LeGree's, just as disheartening as characterizing California the land of fruits and nuts.
What's the point, other than stirring up resentment?
Les
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Leslie: What's the point, other than stirring up resentment?
Pusing through liberal socialist agenda? "Deconstructing" the western civilisation? Finding excuse for present failures and inability to achieve?
Take your pick.
miko
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liberal social agenda?
i am quite liberal and as a at least decently well read sotherner well aware of the real hisory of the war of northern domination.
great great grandady lived to be 98 told grandady who raised me the story from a poor sotherners angle. ( he was blinded in the battel of vicksburg) i find it one of the reasons i became a liberal.
the rich money men are the ones pulling chimpis strings, they are the great great grandsons of the guys who constructed and carried out that torturous war and the 70 or 80 years of economic torture afterwards. wait till you get to the "reconstruction" part
p.s. great grandady shared his shack with a "ole ******" who faught with him in the war and led his blind bellybutton back from vicksburg. he was a free man befor the war had no use for yankees. go figgure
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lord dolf vader: liberal social agenda?
I said socialist agenda.
great great grandady lived to be 98 told grandady who raised me the story from a poor sotherners angle. ( he was blinded in the battel of vicksburg) i find it one of the reasons i became a liberal.
The meaning of the world "liberal" changed a few times. You may want to update yours.
In 19th century it ment the same what today is ment by "libertarian" - individual liberties, limited government.
In 1950s it ment "anti-rasist".
Today it mostly means the opposite of those - "reverse-rasist" and "government control".
miko
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I hope you're being sarcastic, lol if not you have sunk to a new low I didn't think was posible.
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A good old navy bud of mine relayed this story from the mid 1980s.
He was stationed in south carolina and he and some navy buds went to a local bar to get drunk and play pool. Well, all these guys were westerners and northerners and in comes a bunch of badass southern rebal biker types who seek some billiards and friendly competition.
The beer doth flowith and the tide of billiards went the way of the sharper more literate non southerners. At one point the biggest baddassed reb biker guy made that infamous statement heard all across the reconstructed and liberated south "The South shall rise again" and immediately chimed my bud "and the North will beat your bellybutton down again". Well at that point things degenerated into bedlam. My bud woke up in the alley behind the bar with a busted nose and foot and multiple lacerations and contusions. None the worse for wear, several of his buds were recovering in a dumpster. No deaths, but lots of pain and suffering.
Seemed the south still had some fight in em.
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Yup, good old relocated miko, looking for any perverted scrap in compost pile of history to propell some sort of broad generalization into an argument dead before it begins by default.
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I can't believe you guys are arguing with miko. He only lives to piss you off. It doesn't matter what the topic is.
He's from Russia, he lives in NY now, and he flies a rebel flag. Does that make ANY sense to you at all? Do you HONESTLY think it has any meaning to him, outside that it starts a huge flame fest?
Let him sit there on his gov't bought computer spending his welfare checks to free up more time to insult the citizens of the country that supports him. Ignore it.
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the south lost they need to get over it, that flag stands for evil just as the nazi flag does. get over it. stop making excuse's for them. It was flown by a bunch of traitors to the union and the people that fly it today are anti-american.
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if you talkin about usin the n word it was a quote from grandad. i should have quoted it true . i carried no disrespect when it was used.
the point i was trying to make was. my family has lived with with black folks for about the last 200 to 400 years and having yankees demonize every southerner for the 1% that owned slaves. is dispicable and yea we are still pissed off about it.
quick question how many slave states were there in the north after the emancipation declaration? anyone?
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Yeager: Yup, good old relocated miko, looking for any perverted scrap in compost pile of history to propell some sort of broad generalization into an argument dead before it begins by default.
History is history. And if it looks like sordid compost pile - america is not unique in that respect.
Frogm4n: the south lost they need to get over it
You are talking about "might" while we are talking about "right".
It was flown by a bunch of traitors to the union
Wasn't the Union traitors to the British Crown?
that flag stands for evil just as the nazi flag does
Nazi flag stands for evil only since 1941 - before that it was cheerfully waived in US.
"That" flag stands for evil only since the 70s - or at least some people pretend it does.
miko
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And before 1866 white sheets were just bed coverings..... you are really hitting on all cylinders today miko.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
washington redskin = if we changed the following =atlanta ******s = new york kikes = San Franciso Gooks = San Diego Spics = Kansas City Crackers. To the american Indian ,redskin is just as derogatory as all of the above names. This is the only sports team i have a problem with the name. They changed the bullets to wizards(that was stupid). Why cant they get rid of this bull****. I know we killed off most of the natives already so they dont really have the numbers to protest it.
Geezus someone see's my point thank you frog!!!
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midnight Target: And before 1866 white sheets were just bed coverings..... you are really hitting on all cylinders today miko.
All the pictires of The Klan rallies I've seen so far were under "start and bars". So?
miko
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
the south lost they need to get over it, that flag stands for evil just as the nazi flag does. get over it. stop making excuse's for them. It was flown by a bunch of traitors to the union and the people that fly it today are anti-american.
well, if the South were traitors to the Union, then by extension the United States were traitors to King George; depends on how you look at the right of secession.
A strong argument can be made that a major motivation for the North taking up arms to prevent the South leaving, was to preserve the agrarian South as a market for the North's tariff protected manufactured goods, which would otherwise be lost to more competititive British goods.
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guess what the south lost, History is written by the victors of wars. you could call me a traitor if the south won. Well we didnt you dirty dirty slave owning traitors. Now get back to bottleing my coke!
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As a member of the ancient and honored order of Southern White-Trash I must state that I have no prejudices against Black people whatsoever, unless one happens to be an idiot, in which case he or she will get short shrift from me cause I hate idiots and boors of all stripes, but that's just the way I am, and I have never worn a sheet in my entire life, except for that one time on Halloween night when I was ten years old.
Anyhow, everyone needs to get off their soap boxes about this. Slavery was evil, but not all slave owners were brutal beasts. As some of my more liberal college professors delighted in pointing out...there are NO absolutes. During the first two years of the Civil War northerners fought to put down a rebellion and preserve the Union. There was not, in that same period, a strong movement to abolish slavery in the Southern states. Indeed, there was considerable prejudice in many northern cities against Blacks already living there who were competing with white northern factory workers for jobs. Anti-war, anti-draft, and anti-Black feelings boiled over into the New York City Draft Riot that led to the deaths of 1,000 Black people. I don't remember anything similar happening in the South during that time.
I wonder how much different our history would have been if the Confederacy had, in order to survive, promised freedom in 1863 to all slaves willing to don a grey uniform and fight against the Union. Such an action would have deprived Lincoln of the one issue that he used to galvanize public opinion in the North to support the war effort after the victory at Antietam.
Kind of frightening to contemplate, isn't it.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
confederate flag = traitors to the union and should be hanged. also they are all evil racists
Wow you come up with that all by yourself? :rolleyes: Do you even have a clue what you are talking about? Wasnt this country formed by traitors of the crown?
Originally posted by Frogm4n
guess what the south lost, History is written by the victors of wars. you could call me a traitor if the south won. Well we didnt you dirty dirty slave owning traitors. Now get back to bottleing my coke!
I bet your one of the million ppl that think the Civil war was fought becuz of JUST becuz of slavery. Well I will let that be your little secret. The south didnt win. Your right about that. However you do relize that the south won the majorty of the battles. What is really amazing is, three weeks after the south "lost" the war. They ended up geting what they were fighting for in the first place. So did the south really lose? I think the next time you pop your mouth off, with childish insults, and half bellybutton history lessions, you might want to read a book, maybe even two.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by BBBB
Wow you come up with that all by yourself? :rolleyes: Do you even have a clue what you are talking about? Wasnt this country formed by traitors of the crown?
I bet your one of the million ppl that think the Civil war was fought becuz of slavery. Well I will let that be your little secret. The south didnt win. Your right about that. However you do relize that the south won the majorty of the battles. What is really amazing is, three weeks after the south "lost" the war. They ended up geting what they were fighting for in the first place. So did the south really lose? I think the next time you pop your mouth off, with childish insults, and half bellybutton history lessions, you might want to read a book, maybe even two.
:rolleyes:
Actually, the country was started by people trying to ESCAPE the crown.
The south lost. End of story. Accept it. move past it. You aren't your great-grandfather.
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I think you are confused... There is nothing to accept. However that flag is part of GAs history. For that reasion I feel they should bring it back.
I am simply saying that slavery wasnt the only reasion the civil war was fought....
Next time read all the posts before posting....
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Originally posted by BBBB
I think you are confused... I have accepted it. I am simply saying that slavery wasnt the only reasion the civil war was fought....
Next time read all the posts before posting....
what is it I'm confused about? Please help me to understand.
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You seem to think I am upset about the south losing... I am not. The south really didnt lose.... However that is not even the issue here. Why are we even talking about this..... All of this is about a state flag. Why it should stay, and what it really means.
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the confederate flag is a symbol of rebelion against the union, it should not be on any government property.( and yes i know the war wasnt fought completely over slavery i was just trying to bait you hicks). TRAITORs
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I bet your one of the million ppl that think the Civil war was fought becuz of slavery.
Just felt that needed repeating.
Lets just say the War was fought for "States Rights", and the "Right" they were worried about most was the "Right" to own people.
How about this for an analogy?
Saddam Hussein is just fighting for the right of self determination for his sovereign nation to do as it pleases within its own borders?
Or is it about the right to build weapons of mass destruction?
Hmmmmmmmm?
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Originally posted by BBBB
You seem to think I am upset about the south losing... I am not. The south really didnt lose.... However that is not even the issue here. Why are we even talking about this..... All of this is about a state flag. Why it should stay, and what it really means.
That was my point. It appears it is you that should read the post before replying.
I'm saying that the south DID lose. And you said nothing in your post about the flag, except to tell Frogman he was wrong. You were not on that topic at all.
So I responded to your post. Which is why it was quoted. The south DID lose. If you are thinking it didn't, then you should go back to history class. You are apparently one of those hillbillies that are still resentful that the North won, and still cry about it at any opportunity.
I'm just saying get some therapy. Learn to live with your loss. It will be ok in a few generations.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Sure, its about States Rights and the 10th Amendment, but the root of that argument is evil.
No shortage of evil left in the world today.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html
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satan at work
(http://death.innomi.com/uploads/DSC01284.jpg)
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Originally posted by Martlet
That was my point. It appears it is you that should read the post before replying.
I'm saying that the south DID lose. And you said nothing in your post about the flag, except to tell Frogman he was wrong. You were not on that topic at all.
So I responded to your post. Which is why it was quoted. The south DID lose. If you are thinking it didn't, then you should go back to history class. You are apparently one of those hillbillies that are still resentful that the North won, and still cry about it at any opportunity.
I'm just saying get some therapy. Learn to live with your loss. It will be ok in a few generations.
And you and frog call yourselves americans? You are still calling us hicks, southerners.... we must be stupid, inbreed, moonshin drinking, handsomehunkes.... Right?
That is the most ignorant thing I have heard in a long time. There is no loss to get over. You guys are just dumb... So much so I feel bad for you... I have never in my life heard so many insults towards the south... and you say where the ones upset about the war? I dont recall calling you funny talking yankees.... Well I guess after I get out of the Army I should go back down to the "farm" in Atlanta and pick some cotton. Maybe I can bottle some coke while I am at it. I think some of you in here need to get over the war that took place a long, long, time ago. FYI the GA state flag has nothing to do with the Civil War..... but let me guess, you already knew that. You were just "baiting us dumb hicks" :rolleyes:
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yea and so far its worked great. id love some grits with that hun.
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Originally posted by BBBB
And you and frog call yourselves americans? You are still calling us hicks, southerners.... we must be stupid, inbreed, moonshin drinking, handsomehunkes.... Right?
That is the most ignorant thing I have heard in a long time. There is no loss to get over. You guys are just dumb... So much so I feel bad for you... I have never in my life heard so many insults towards the south... and you say where the ones upset about the war? I dont recall calling you funny talking yankees.... Well I guess after I get out of the Army I should go back down to the "farm" in Atlanta and pick some cotton. Maybe I can bottle some coke while I am at it. I think some of you in here need to get over the war that took place a long, long, time ago. FYI the GA state flag has nothing to do with the Civil War..... but let me guess, you already knew that. You were just "baiting us dumb hicks" :rolleyes:
who's dumping on the south? I'm dumping on you and the other hillbilly's. You're an EXTREME minority.
YEEEEEHAW.
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yea baby wernt no time limit on the risin.
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Originally posted by hawk220
miko
im sure there are a lot of people that are offended by the Stars and Stripes
but the North and its flag won
had it been the other way around, im sure the stars and bars and slavery would be everywhere.
The stars and bars are still here. They cant take your flag away.
Its been proven to be counter productive to try :D
You're a fool if you think we would still have slaves if we had won.
The way you said "im sure" is even funnier
And all those confederate troops? The black ones?
They were all forced to fight. :D
If I had lived then and owned slaves,
I'm not sure if I would have wanted to give him a rifle an a bayonette. and let them fight "with" me??
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
confederate flag = traitors to the union and should be hanged. also they are all evil racists
You are the racist. If they have a ga flag they need hanging..
You look at the color of thier flag and not at the person behind it.
Worse form of racism.
Do you know how stupid you are?
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Hey Lee, I have already called this battle off. You cant have a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed. They think they have a pretty good understanding of what the war was about, and what our flag ment. Nevermind the fact Ga entered the war mostly for a free economic control over there Industry. Or that the Ga flag was inplace long before the war ever started. Were the racist, stupid farmers. Yet Gen Sherman marched though Ga burning everything in sight, massacring hundreds of young boys and old men, both black and white alike for defending there citys from being burned.
Gen Shermans march to the sea, is one of the many war crimes committed by the Union Army durring the civil war, that went unchecked. So I will let these two knuckle heads continue to call us rasict, and hicks. We know the truth. I see that their public education system isnt as fine as the one we have in place down in Georiga. So dont bother with trying to defend your actions with these two. They are one of the many people we read about who are up for a Dawin Award. ;)
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
yea and so far its worked great. id love some grits with that hun.
You cant handle grits. You should stick to catfood.
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The stars and bars are still here. They cant take your flag away.
apparently we can.
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Originally posted by hawk220
The stars and bars are still here. They cant take your flag away.
apparently we can.
Shows what you know.
Stars and Bars still wave on the GA flag and the actual Battle flag flys next door to the SC statehouse, bigger than it was before with spot lights on it. You can also see it near the capital in atlanta also dwarfing the one on the statehouse.
There are 50% more southerners flying the battle flag this year than were 3 years ago. There was a boon of money made selling the battle flag and there was a huge shortage while companies rushed to make more.
Hence my statement , the crusade was counterproductive.
"Gratefully we remember those who fought for the Confederacy and the principle of states rights, and we mourn the passing of a voluntary Union".
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http://www.rtis.com/reg/bcs/pol/touchstone/february00/04rebel.html
The Flag is also helpful in exposing liberal hypocrisy. Liberals claim to love diversity, differing cultures, variant customs etc. But liberals are amazingly intolerant toward stupid people who enjoy being stupid and wish to remain stupid. South Carolina's Rebel Flag waving is a beacon of hope for stupid people everywhere. It ought not be taken down capriciously
Every state claims to be the "most beautiful," have the "hardest working people," et cetera, ad nauseum. Finally, a state that's being honest about its only useful, real distinction. Flying the rebel Flag is an almost polite way of saying, "come to South Carolina, where you don't have to be embarrassed about using the N-word."
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TRAITORS TO THE UNITED STATES!
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:rolleyes:
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Shuckins: Such an action would have deprived Lincoln of the one issue that he used to galvanize public opinion in the North to support the war effort after the victory at Antietam.
Sorry, but I have to correct your history.
Lincoln's proclamation made it impossible for Britain and France to support the South.
It did not galvanize public opinion in the North - quite the opposite. Tens of thousands of Union soldiers deserted and riots and lynchings broke out in many places when northerners learned they would be fighting for the blacks they despised.
If galvanizing the public opinion was possible, Lincoln woul have not waited untill after the victory in a major battle. He would have doone it sooner when North was being beaten on the field of battle.
Lincokln clearly stated many times that thepreservation of theUnion was his goal, not abolition of slavery. He would not have stopped the war - but more british and french help to the south, including recognition could have affected the outcome.
miko
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
TRAITORS TO THE UNITED STATES!
TRAITORS TO THE UNITED STATES!
__________________
I beat the internet... the last guy was hard.
The hard guy. Did you find him enjoyable?
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Of course the Northerners were the traitors - they overthrew the voluntary Union of the free states and replaced it with a despotic centrally-run state.
miko
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last i checked the south left the union and the constitution. that is treason in my books. but seriously you guys need to get over it. the south lost the war. you dont see people in boston waving british flags around claiming " the brits shall rise again!". I understand you guys fantasize about what "if" the south won and how much greater life in america would be(less darkies) just like alot of people fantasize about what "if" the nazis won, or "if" the spanish armada won etc.....
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Do ya think they will keep all those pictures of Hussein up on all those walls?
where can i get the picture of california republic flag waving for my avatar?
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Originally posted by rc51
History 101.
The white man has screwed everybody at some point in history.
yep, white men also tried to eliminate the jews at the face of the globe.
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Originally posted by BBBB
I bet your one of the million ppl that think the Civil war was fought becuz of JUST becuz of slavery.... I think the next time you pop your mouth off, with childish insults, and half bellybutton history lessions, you might want to read a book, maybe even two.
:rolleyes:
From the "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union
Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.
and later on in the same document,
A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.
Looks like some of those million lived in South Carolina in 1860.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
yep, white men also tried to eliminate the jews at the face of the globe.
If those white men had won WWII, none of us would be safe. White or no, we'd all be slaves.
People were very worried about the outcome of the Battle of the Bulge. Many old timers who lived back then felt the US would have lost the war, if we had lost that one battle.
The German infantry soldier with a rifle was considered a very dangerous opponent. One of my uncles, who passed on a few years ago, was at the Anzio landing. I never got to talk to him, or even meet him, but my Dad said Uncle Sydney would not talk about it at all.
When I was 16, and worked at a radio/appliance store toting around refrigerators and microwave ovens, my boss was Bill Knapp. He was a tail gunner in a B-24 and went on the Ploesti oil field raids. He was shot down twice during his bomber flights. He showed me a picture of him and his crew, with the B-24. I sure wish I had that picture today. He gave me an Amana microwave oven (1973 model) about 20 years ago, and I still use it to this day.
My Dad was in the Signal Corps during WWII. Before that, he worked as a 2nd mate on a 300 ton freighter out of New Orleans, bound for Argentina to Buenos Aires. He told me he listened on the radio (during the battle) while the British ships Exeter, Achilles and Ajax came after the Graf Spee...and later saw first hand the upper works of the German pocket battleship after it had been sunk (or scuttled), sticking up from the water near the mouth of the Rio Plata.
Les
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Frogm4n: last i checked the south left the union and the constitution. that is treason in my books.
The Constitution did not contain any provision preventing the states from freely leaving the Union. The only treason to The Constitution was denying states such right.
If you have some info or insights for us regarding the North-South war, etc, some will be glad to hear those. As for your suggestion that we should stop thinking on certain topics altogether - forget about it. Nazi did not win, as much as you wished they would. So you cannot stop us from thinking - for now. Spare your breath.
miko
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Miko,
Making the point that the North didn't have the abolition of slavery as a prime directive is nonsensical. That is completely unrelated to the aims of the Southern States, who wanted to maintain the right to own people.
I have posted the planks of the Alabama cessesion and Holden has posted the same from South Carolina. Both mention Slavery as a prime example of the "rights" they are protecting through cessesion.
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MT,
Making the point that all southerners were the same and had the same interests is nonsensical.
Making the point that self-determination is only good if those countries use it to conduct the policies currently approved by your state is nonsensical.
As many Northern seccesionists claimed, secceding from the South would have been their way to get rid of slavery in USA.
I am not going to argue that slavery was one of the institutions Southern states intended to keep for a while. I only claim that self-determination in general is the right of any people and that they would have eventually dismanteld those institutions themselves - under outside moral or economical pressure, under the influence of internal enlightenment, etc.
New York State certainly had slavery (not just african but tens of thousands of Irish men, women, and children effectively became slaves in the New World by being sold into indentured servitude) and certainly abolished it in teh course of natural historical process - without much bloodshed, invasion, etc.
On the Fourth of July, 1827, two centuries after it began, slavery ended in New York State.
The end did not come overnight, with a great thunderclap of insight that the owning of one person by another was morally wrong. The largest slave state in the North ended slavery only gradually -- as did the other northern states -- during a period of three decades, and only after a great debate.
Slavery was allowed to die a slow death in New York because such gradualism protected the economic interests of slaveowners, according to David N. Gellman, a lecturer in early American history at Northwestern University. Gellman, an expert on the abolition movement in New York State, was asked recently whether the policy of gradually freeing slaves had been a success.
``It certainly beats the Civil War, if that's the alternative,'' Gellman said. ``Unquestionably, from a moral standpoint, you would have to say no. But it's a human institution, and it's not easy to dislodge. It's a problem of political give and take, though it seems appalling that real human beings should be subject to this give and take.''
In 1817, the Legislature passed the law that ended slavery in New York State, to take effect 10 years later, on July 4, 1827. A loophole in the law that allowed transients to bring slaves into New York for a nine-month period, and part-time residents to bring their slaves into the state temporarily, was closed in 1841.
It is silly to claim that Norterners took their sweet time to free their own slaves but went to fight an extremely bloody war to make others do so just couple of decades later.
miko
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sounds like the gods got the slobs to fight yet another pointless war for them. traitor.
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How could I be offended by a guy with an advtar of MJ..... :rolleyes: