Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on November 18, 2001, 10:13:00 PM
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I actually think the reason people want to fly fast planes (la-7, yak, P-51, Dora, etc.) is because it is literally impossible to get a 1v1 fight in the main arena. This is not "hyberbole".... I haven't had a 1v1 fight in about 4 months now I think. I think the best I usually manage when I'm flying by myself is 2 or 3 on 1. As good as the Spit is 1v1 (and it is a great plane)... it (and every other plane except for the La7), sucks bellybutton in a 3 or 4 on 1 situation.
I guess this is sort of a whine, and sort of just a vent. Why do you guys think planes like the 109F4, 190A8, La5, P47, c205, etc, etc etc. are so rare? It isn't because they suck. The 109F4 is a very good plane, as is the C205. The 190A8 can usually hold its own provided there is a good pilot at the controls. Same with the P47. The LA5 is better than any of the German planes, save the 109G10 and Dora, and even those are debatable. Yet they see very little use in the MA. I think that is a direct result of the gangbanging in the MA. Why bother flying anything but the BEST turner or the BEST runner if you KNOW you are going to get attacked by 3 or 4 enemy planes?
Hell, I actually forsee the Spit losing the number 1 perch to the P-51 or the La7 as people get more and more tired of trying to fight X number of enemy planes (with X being greater than 2 in most cases) by themselves. Perhaps the gangbanging is a direct result of the lopsided numbers in the MA that we've had for the past 5 months or so? I do see that problem getting worse as more AW people come into the MA (last night the Bish were at 85 people, with the Knights at 130 and the Rooks at 150 [maybe I have those mixed up, can't remember], and tonight it was 85ish against 120 to 130 for the other two teams). Why can't people even out the numbers? Do people really find it enjoyable to outnumber their opponent 2 to 1?
It kind of makes things a pain in the bellybutton for me, since the only fight I can ever find is me versus 3 or more enemies.
Anyway, I'm done for now I guess. I was dweebing around in the toejamfire9, I guess I'll have to dust off the La-7 until the gangrape furor subsided in a few months.
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Yeah the gangbanging get's a bit dumb but what are you gonna do? i think people should even out the teams a bit i mean my squads on bishop cause we felt wrong about the knights having the number advantage all the time (at least when we left). say 300 ppl are on usually 80ish are bish, 140ish are knit and 130ish are rook and usually knit and rook attack us all at once.
I refuse to take off unless i am confident the numbers are around even. Whenever i see someone engaging i will join in if I think they may need the help but if it looks like the pilot is having a decent dogfight i continue on my merry way.
The best anti-gangbang tactic is to disengage when you see more enemies than friendlies. Run towards friendlies even if you can't run well it will bring you to safety. and when you have 2 or 3 enemies on your tail run towards friendlies screaming like a madman screaming "HELP ME!!!!"
The bottom line is if you flew into an area where you are outnumbered vastly you screwed up BIGTIME.
Gangbanging happend in WW2 also i've heard a story story somewhere of a 109 pilot who ran out of ammo and had 6 P-51s on his six so he just bailed.
Being an "alt weenie" helps sometimes too, hell when i wanna 1on1 i goto 20k and there's usually a few P-51 "alt monkeys" (as i like to call em :D" up there.
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HTC have tried to create a fairly WW2-like arena and the teamwork (aka gangbanging) is part of that. It's a team sport. Get a wingman or join a squad. If you want 1v1 then massively multiplayer sims are not for you. Get an old copy of Fighter Duel or something.
And the main problem with trying to fly a Spit in the MA is not the style of fighting. It's the fact that the Spits and other 1942 and earlier planes are forced to compete with 1944 and 1945 uberplanes. As the scoring data have shown since the inception of this game, most of these early war planes are just not up to the task in the hands of the average pilot.
[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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I'd disagree with you there, but maybe it is just me. Either I'm signifcantly better than the average pilot, or when I was flying the Spit I was fighting people who couldn't find thier bellybutton with both hands even in your 1944-1945 "uberplanes". With an altitude advantage, I was able to run down an La-7, and then kill him when he turned. Had the tables been turned, he would have run me down and then not been able to hit me. The Spits main problem is that it is to slow to get away from the 3 or 4 people that will dive into a 1 on 1 (or 2 or 3) fight. And even that doesn't stop it from being used, because you can yank and bank and get lucky. The problem is that most planes can't turn like a spit (and hell, the Spit is just about the same speed as the 109G6 and 190A5), and still aren't fast like a P-51 or LA7, so they are pretty much screwed.
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These maps concentrate the front on 2-4 airbases per front. The maps are to small.
Ideally I'd like to see the map where at one time a1 was at 10k then it got dropped to 5k or so. There were also vbases. Only problem theres no cv action in either this map or the beta map(which again is too small).
Also with all the new "stuff" since 1.08 everything is crowded.
I liked to see a med map with more airbases and vbases. or an eastern front map. even the current euro map if it could be fixed and more fields added would help spread the fights out.
The Mission planner is nothing more then a gangbang planner (or lag planner) 25-30 guys going to hit a base they usaully never get it. It always has been but spreading out the fields (I'm not saying fields further apart I'm saying a bigger map with alot more bases)there may be more smaller missions if not it would give those not involved to go somewhere else. Spreading it out a bit would also reduce the fps hit them some are having at the 50 man furballs.
Make no mistake I'm having a great time with these maps and gettin a few kills that i wouldn't ordinarily get. But Urchin is right in a sense. If you haven't got time in those not-so-fast planes theres no way at the current rate o'gangbang are any of the newer guys gonna get in them. So p51s and la7s or any faster plane will be there choice and they can be addictive.
IMHO the spitfire is the toughest plane in the main to fight against and they never come alone. I kill way more then kill me.
If we get a big enough map we can add a forth country the "Queens" and send all them spit pansies there...... :)
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Urchin: In WWII the fastest fighters generally ruled the skies. It didn't take the various air forces very long to realize that if they had a speed advantage they could get kills without much risk. If AH furball Darwinism is driving people into the types of planes that were historically dominant then it indicates to me that AH air combat must be a pretty decent representation of the real thing.
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Wotan:
IMHO the spitfire is the toughest plane in the main to fight against and they never come alone. I kill way more then kill me.
Must not be such a tough plane to fight then, eh? You've obviously figured out how to use the speed of your aircraft to beat them. Spits (as modeled in AH at least) have some critical weaknesses - admit it.
If we get a big enough map we can add a forth country the "Queens" and send all them spit pansies there.
I know you are kidding, but it always cracks me up when Luftwaffe guys gripe about fighting Spitfires. I mean just what the heck kind of fighters do you think the Luftwaffe primarily fought against in the West from 1940 through 1943? I'd think a "historical" LW pilot would be salivating at the thought of a sky full of Spitfires. :)
[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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I would like to see a spread out map as well. However the radar sector alerts need to be expanded as well. They are too specific on where the threat exactly is.
Jarbo
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Urchin, with more people online last months 1vs1 is harder to find, but still those "4 months" sound strange for me, because I can get 1vs1 almost every evening in MA.
After all, if you want to duel someone, contact him, ask him to go to duel arena, and you can fly 1vs1 against the equal or better pilot as long as you 2 will want. I do not see any problem here.
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I don't think so. The spits are so good at turning and the FE so bad at keeping up with drawing that tight of a turn, it's almost impossible to get the shot. The only real way to down a spit that is flown right is to gangbang.
I am sorry but that is just how it is. I cannot tell you how many times I have flown an LA7 only to get 1 kill or none, and not for lack of trying. All the4 spit has to do is pull up, roll right then blackout-yank that puppy back under and 99 times out of a hundred no one will hit it. I see it all the time. It's the turn and burn planes that are the real threat.
But if I see myself getting into a hopeless situation damn right I am running and I want a fast plane to do it in! The real bummer is I am penalized for doing it because the perks only go to the slower planes.
Now you put an LA7 and a spit together and I bet 4 out of 5 times the spit will win, given that no one is allowed to run home. Maybe more than that! And yet the spit will get more perks for that one kill than the LA7 did for the 4!!!! Rediculous!
And here is why the spit will win:
I had a guy challenge me to go to dueling arena. When I engaged him, every time WITHOUT FAIL he turned tail to me!!! In RL that is suicide! Then when I was within D1.2 or so he would WITHOUT FAIL pull the same damnable maneuver. Normally he would be ded every time he tried it, but because the change of direction is so terribly fast, what my FE sees as his present location is not even REMOTELY where he is really at!
I end up trying to pull lead on a plane that is at least 3 seconds behind the real one which is at that point saddling up on my 6. Oh the FE will catch up eventually but too late. The pilot who flies after what he sees will ALWAYS lose. He called that being a good pilot. I call that exploiting the weakness of internet lag.
So what do I do? I fly in groups. THAT is the measure of a good pilot, not whether or not you can properly exploit internet lag ina one on one.
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The FE can't keep up with a Spit?
then how the hell does it cope with a Hurricane's turn rate or an Fw's roll rate?
That's the lamest Spitwhine I've heard yet.
And I've heard a few since starting AH.
Added to which, even in the galaticaly improbable event that you're right, it's irrelevant. If you see hit sprites on your front end, however out of phase your FE may
be from the target's, you get the hits.
Does it never occur to you whiners that the Spit actually may have been a good plane?
Here we have a 1042/3 parts bin hybrid and you're still whining. What would the fuss be if we had a Spit modeled after the best of the breed, like the Lw rides?
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hmm I fly the knights. And spent many a month "In the Bucket" Every time we logged in Knights were down in numbers, getting hit on two fronts from Bish and Rooks. Now that things are kinda levelling out or we are starting to gain an advantage we are supposed to switch?? If I switch to rooks I am stuck there for 12 hours. The numbers move in cycles. Knights have the advantage then a little later as more Rooks come in and Knights leave the Rooks get the numbers. If everyone moved teams to as you say even the numbers, then when Knights leave and rooks show up then what, I can't switch back for 10 hours or so.
RazorDD
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Only my two cents;
-some maps (mindanao ) seems made to concentrate fighting over the central point, and this develops furball in that zone.
-theres a bunch of people who doesnt like to wait in front of their monitor to gain altitude and have a good fight, so they roll to nearest furball, they furball, die reroll...and so on :(
-if u wanna have 1vs 1 fight is better u go to h2h arena :D . MA is something like war.
-if you dont want be gangbanged u have to fly smart! Fly with a wingman, look at the situation, have an high SA level, ever look for an escape point.
-some people dives on everyone is red fighting and shooting like animals, then when they realize they are low, no E, no speed, no friendlies around,only a bunch of enemies they whine "my spit and I are real great fighters, but we are ever outnumbered in this arena". Funny
:) :p
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hehe 1 on 1 DO happen quite often... I dont know about others but when I find a 1on1 fight its always like this: I fly Tyffie about 18k... I notice single dot coming towards me... What a surprise its a La7 or P51 or 190 steaming towards me at 25k+ He tryes to zoom on me, I evade, he tryes few more times I always evade and gain a bit of alt... Then suddenly he realizes we are co alt and co E... Does he fight? Noooo! He dives like hell outa there runing home... if I try to pursuit him he keeps on runing until few friends of him come to help him.. .then he bravely turns the plane back and here we have 3 on 1 :) If you want good stories of similar encounters ask Orel... Shame that most of you do not speak Czech language because its always fun to listen to Orel on RW complaining about people refusing to fight 1on1 :D But generaly you are right there is not many 1on1 encounters happening but they are not rare yet. The only cure to gangbanging is to be the one who gangbangs :) or at least not to fly alone... So solution is: Wing up with someone or join a squad...
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MBirdCZ
[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: MadBirdCZ ]
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I know you are kidding, but it always cracks me up when Luftwaffe guys gripe about fighting Spitfires. I mean just what the heck kind of fighters do you think the Luftwaffe primarily fought against in the West from 1940 through 1943? I'd think a "historical" LW pilot would be salivating at the thought of a sky full of Spitfires.
I know exactly what those guys thought
"Jesus Christ here we go again......eat my 20 spit pansie,,,,,,,,,,," :)
Look I 've jumped in a spit some time ago in the CT (spit V) and had little problem fighting with them in terrible odds and getting kills and home unscathed. I have upped a Seafire and done the same. And yes I even once got in a Spit ix and killed in it. But a mediocre pilot like myself can kill way beyond my skill level in it with ease. I dont dread spits I dread the pilots who know how to use them.
Unlike some I dont fly in the main to recreate WW2 I am a single minded vulcher. I've shot down a temp with a g6 this tour (my 2nd temp) because a guy didnt know what hes doing. And bar far the number of spits I've shot down have been because the guys in them sucked.
In an 190f8 I'm:
Wotan has 57 kills and has been killed 14 times in the Fw 190F-8.
and most of my a2a kills are because guys see a slow moving target come in fast then when i barrel roll they dont have a clue.
I fly a zeke more then any other ac. And I do well in it as well. Yes each plane has it strengths and weakness but it is as if the spitfire was purposely designed for a combat flight sim. It by far, under the conditons in the main, is the best aircraft for the job. I dont care who flies them, or why, nor does it need to be perked.
I just like a variety in my vulchin.
Like all good lwheenies I am much more interested in the eastern front. Lets face it thats where WW2 was fought , lost and won at. While the western front contributed greatly to the speed at which germany was defeated the battles in the east were of epic scale.
Now back on topic
I refer you to my previous post about the arena size and compact "fronts"
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do you think a pilot in wwII went up squeaking because there were too many enemys?
If you dont like the gangbang then fly with a wingman.
When i go up alone i try to stick with someone else that way we can cover each other.
There has been times when i was on patrol and i see one of my friends with his plane smoking with 3 boggies on his tail. At times like that i would swooop down and try to get the enemey off his tail and on to mine. That way i can try and drag them away from the cripled friendly plane so he can land.
if you dont like it then fly in a group.
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Here's the trick.
If those dweebs are gangbanging all the time - the Grünherzjägers will go on the prowl.
We'll select a target, a base where activity is low, and then hit it hard. They'll be forced to defend it or lose it.
Soon, the gangbang is there, if we do not take the field. So, we go somewhere else.
It is true that there are now more massive engagements - but we got almost three times as many players as in the "good old days".
When flying in a squad, I can usually find plenty of good fights. Usually we're a bit outnumbered, but as we fight in a squad with RW, we're more effective than a bunch guys flying with no coordination.
Squad flying adds about 200% of fun to Aces High for me.
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While I often meet some great pilots, or pilot pairs (Kieran's never alone, Pepe always has friends, Fester's so schizoid he's a one man squad anyway), the only squad I can identify by sight is the 13 TAS.
If I go screaming into a furball, look up and see four dots holding formation through the dance, I know I'm screwed long before the icons come into view and say "P-51".
Individualy they may blow monkey chunks, but they're the only guys I've seen in AH performing in the mutually supportive role that a squad should offer.
Far too often most "Squad ops" are one bezerker-killer with an over worked wingman trying to keep him alive (but I'm not bitter... :) ).
I find it hilarously ironic that the same guys I see complaining about killshooter are the same guys I see in a conger line after every sub 5K bandit....You have to wonder if they ever actually think about what they're doing.
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With the influx of new players, it seems that even the "out of the way" fights have turned into gangbangs. My biggest problem with this is the strain it puts on frame rates.
Maybe there will be more interest in the CT by those looking for lower <cough> density fights.
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1v1 is easy to find in H2H or thru prearranged engagments with others. I do have to snicker at the never ending whine some have about being gangganged or not being able to find a "gentlemans duel" in what is essentially a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER combat arena. A place where there are anywhere from a low of 80 folks to a high of 350plus online at any time.
Westy
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Just rest easy and take it as a challenge, mates. In the prime-time here in Asia, the tables are turned. It's generally like 50 Bish, 30 Knits and 25 Rooks(I seem to notice the Knits always land in second place, whenever the time zone..). Rooks who fly with me in that time zone have come to naturally detest[/i] the Bishops :D.
In our case, most of the people flying AH in asia are Japanese folks, and somehow(dunno... maybe they shared informations?), the JP pilots from AW seemed to have just engraved themselves with the Bishops(which, from my experience, had most JP pilots before AW closed). T'was a pity, because JP pilots are in most of the cases very talented, and we Rooks could sure use some new good pilots from AW :)
.. but I digress.
If you stray a bit from the thought of actually trying to get a kill, I find flying just as interesting and enjoyable. Yeah, it's probably some psychological defense mechanism( :D), but anyway, I try to see what I can do in such gangbang conditions. My goal became to fight and to survive, and kills aren't necessarily the prime objective.
I try to fly with few of my friends, fly high over a gangbanged base, and drive the new incoming bangers low for our furball luvin' folk to kill. It's really good if I can get some kills before I drive all of them down low, but if I can't.. oh well, at least I've done my part. Recently, I've tried to designate my role as a high alt CAPS/buff hunter, and though it isn't as stimulating as fighter combat, it did give me some alternative things to enjoy when numbers were against you.
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What I'm suggesting is, try to relax, and try to find some other important elements of combat you may enjoy. I mean, the air war wasn't just about fighters and fighters.. it was also about how to stop buffs, how to distract people, tactics.. etc etc..
Ultimately the problem lies in with uneven numbers, and it needs to be looked into... but until then.. let's try to enjoy as much as we can :)
[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Kweassa ]
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I agree with Wotan's initial premise, we need bigger maps now that we have these kinds of numbers.
On the maps that we have the forces are too concentrated and thuf make it much harder on the 1942-1943 stuff compared to when the MA was less crowded.
I would love to see what these numbers feel like on a bigger playing field.
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come on, can't you guys go back to whining about the N1K2's? ;)
IMO, the La7 is the best plane for the low alt gangbangs. The La7 shines below 10,000ft. Hell, above that it's WEP doesn't even work. Keep the majority of your moves in the vertical in the La7 and you'll be nearly untouchable in the furball (save for another La7 or a Yak, but when do you see Yaks anymore? oh, and those that hover above the furball and dive in from about 10000ft above, they can get ya at the top of your reverse.) All the Spits can do is go defensive in a 3 v 1, IMO. I'll come out of that 3 v 1 with some kills in a Spit though, if the people attacking me don't work together. If all 3 come at once, it's easy to evade and get a snapshot off. If it's staggered where as soon as I get one to overshoot there's another coming in with a gun solution, I'm gonna have to evade him too. Then the 3rd comes in, evade him, then it repeats with the 1st. Usually this isn't the case tho. They all rush to be the one to get the kill, and they screw up.
This tour I'm flying the La7 and Spit V mostly. Not doing that bad either. :)
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I think the biggest problem is the greediness of the pilots in the MA.
Ohhh so many times have i either seen this happen or had it happen to me. Ill have 5-6 enemies on my 6 and searching for friendlies will find 6 of them chasing some unluckly enemy bastard. I my self have been the 6 chasing the 1 enemy, its a huge problem.
This happens to me a lot due to how i make my attacks, ill come in high and try to intersect some of the lower enemies that are heading for the furball. Most times after a series of BNZ attacks its time to bug out to the nearest hoard of friendlies.
When i arrive ill find them all chasing 1 AC, ill hand out 6 calls hoping that one of them checks and sees my misfortune, in some cases the good sticks will break off and give a fellow rook a hand. but the perk/kill hungry could care less, they are probably thinking(yes they think i belive), "they are not on my six, they are on yours why are you 6 calling me??" lol :D
This type of "team play" (use the term loosely) is unaviodable with the current rooster of players in the MA. Most of the rookies have one thing on there mind and thats landing a kill, and the easiest way to achive that is to gang up.
Maybe we should clue them in on how easy it is to get a kill when you are clearing someones six? thats probably how i land 70% of mine.
If you want good fights, with even numbers i recomend going very high, because even if you find your self out numbered you got plenty of altitude to toy with.
<S>
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The N1K2 has more kills against fighters than the La-7.
AKDejaVu
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I have taken to flying Yaks, and I fear no La7. ;)
To the gentleman regarding the "unbeatable spit"- I disagree. Spits are easy to beat, or avoid. You have to screw up royally to get caught by one (in a Yak). The best turndy-burndy planes won't rule in an arena like the MA- speed and firepower rule.
I fly alone a lot. I go where the action is because I won't be on long. I call 6's and clear them, fight til I'm out ammo then run like hell. I have managed a few 1 vs. 1's this way, but true enough more often than not it is a massive furball action near some field.
We have many new people here, and the population density has clearly risen. This is good, because there should be action about anywhere anytime. The game IS changing, but is it changing for the worse? I don't think so.
After the discussion on the use of buffing, I decided to take a Mossie up for a few runs. I was helping to destroy a city, so I dropped the load, used the ammo, then rtb'd. I returned and indeed much of what I'd done was undone- but no matter. This time there were more with me, and we did a more thorough job. The goon was following close behind, and we got the city. Would I have cared if we hadn't? Not one bit. I'd accomplished what I wanted to do from the beginning; I went into a hot zone, fought my way in and out, killed the city, clipped a couple fighters, and returned safe and sound. It was fun, and would have been fun regardless of the outcome of the capture.
If you up in a red zone, you're gonna get raped. If you haven't figured this one out, buy some KY, you'll need it. If you want to avoid the gangbang, that is simple too- just don't up there or go near it.
The game is bound to change- either it continually does so or it dies.
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Not sure on this one. I had some of the best 1-1 fights last night <S> Math in his F6F. I was able to find quite a few, I just look on hte dar bar and look for a single dot once I find it I head there if I lose well so be it. The gang banging has been around for quite sometime now, and with the influx of more people flying these maps which at first seemed huge now are rather small. I think it might be wise to increase the playing area and spread the action around some. This is really the only viable option to reduce gang banging.
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"the only viable option to reduce gang banging."
Point blank: Arena size doesn't gang bang people, people gang bang people
The arena size matters not one bit at all. Niether does having three countries. You could have four thousand bases for four countries. The combat will always be found over a small area of turf which will be found on the edge territoy between any two or more countries. And folks simply tend to gravitate towards where they are sure they will perservere and that is where thier numbers match or exceed the enemy. Well most folks do. Save the few muh-roons (been known to be one myself <G> ) who somehow consistantly spawn into a sea of red ;)
And just for the record, imo, attacks made in the rear or far from any fighting on undefended basers by weak wristed 'limply pat your self on the back for another fine milkrunning porkfest' types is not "combat" in my book.
Westy
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Yes, Sachs is right. One of the good things of our 2001 radar system is that you can pick your 1vs1 fight. You can even guess if it is a fighter or a buff from the speed it moves at on the map. Moreover, if you take a look at the radar while engaged you can even be prepared before an other enemy dot could appear. Add to this a good SA and there are a few excuses.
If you get gangbanged is your fault
It should be stone carved in the Main Arena door.
Sometimes I accept to be ganganged: its when I defend an attacked airfield taking off directly there. Then I take an angle fighter with 25% fuel and off I go. Fun :)
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What may possibly spread out the fights is to up the perk value of resupply targets (trains etc).
I think this would lead to more dispersion as the perk farmers go train hunting and get bounced all over the map.
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Originally posted by Seeker:
Here we have a 1042/3 parts bin hybrid and you're still whining. What would the fuss be if we had a Spit modeled after the best of the breed, like the Lw rides?
Seeker could you tell me which LW fighters except G-10 and Me-262 are "the best of their breed" in AH?
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1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34
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It's the front area who's to narow. Pilots have the choice between attacking field A, or field B or field C. All of those fileds, you can see a stream of fighters going back and fourth.
Personally I always go for the less crowded as I hate furballs. But even my squadies, in their P47 are usually found going for the more crowded.
I never understood that :p
Olivier "Frenchy" Raunier
(http://home.cfl.rr.com/rauns/looking_for_trouble.jpg)
63rd FS, 56th FG
"Zemke's Wolfpack"
Ammo cannot stand to pay our P47s repair bill anymore ...
Santa even talked about awarding me the Iron Cross!!!
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Interesting observations but not new or original. Gangbanging is very much alive in here but, it doesn't have anything to do with the influx of people from AW. When I came over from AW 6 months ago, I observed gangbanging not only by individuals but also by countries, and it still occurs.
Over in AW there was ganging all the time in the same way. I can't speak for WBz although one of my squadmates flew WBz for several months and came back to report that ganging was done by individuals and countries as well. In AH I am constantly amazed to see 4 and 5 nme or friendlies chasing one poor SOB til he dies or manages to run away (hence the need for a fast plane). I think Urchin makes an accurate observation though...it does occur. Will it change? I submit that it won't . If it did though that would be great. Hehe, no more guys stealing your kill after you work em down to your advantage. No more guys diving in to get hits in on the nme plane you shot shot up; no more guys running away leaving you hi and dry with the 5 nme on your back, that you just got off his back. Sigh, wouldn't the AH world be a better place? :rolleyes:
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I'd have though the Ta-152 and 190D were considered moderatly good, wouldn't you
?
Oh, I forgot, we don't have the Ta-152, do we?
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The furball is one aspect of online sims that is fun, exhiliarating and action packed. It ruled in AW and seems to be as favored here in AH. Many times I have flown around, over, and in low level furballs and have seen folks diving, climbing and chasing without a thought for destroying the field being contested; furballs seem to take on a life of their own. It makes for memorable times in the game. And unless you are in a fast a/c that can climb up over a fight to advantage, it aint no fun being low and slow. It is possible to find a one v one too, and they are fun, if the guy your fighting wants to fight and not pull skill less HO's.
All of this to say, we have what we have in the MA; sort of like the will of the people. If folks didnt want it this way, it wouldn't be.
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What you all are describing is furballing, not gangbanging. Gangbanging would be an improvement because it implies cooperation. When you find 3 Spits hot on your six, they are not cooperating, they each want the kill and you got yourself in range so you've become their target.
The problem is that even with the strat system and the mission planner and the CT, AH has not yet developed much of an alternative to the general MA furball. There's nothing wrong with furballing, but it would be nice for the average player to have an alternative available 24/7.
One thing to do is go on channel 1 and ask if anyone wants to go to the dueling arena. Another is to go hunting in uncrowded sectors. You'd be surprised what you can find as a solo hunter in a quiet sector: low Arados and Me-262's; lone buffs climbing out; lost newbies; and the occassional lone hunter like yourself. It takes more time to find your fight, but if you want a quick fight then grab a Spit and join the furball.
ra
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Originally posted by Seeker:
I'd have though the Ta-152 and 190D were considered moderatly good, wouldn't you
?
Oh, I forgot, we don't have the Ta-152, do we?
They most definately are "moderately good" but that wasn't what you said in the first place, was it?
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1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34
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In that case I withdraw my sarcasm, and boldly state that to the best of my knowledge the 190D is the best of the 190 breed, and the Ta-152 goes even further, it's a Wolf so uber they changed it's name.
Can I have my Spit XIV now, I'm getting used to the fact that LW whining is a universal constant that should be ignored.
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Originally posted by Seeker:
Can I have my Spit XIV now, I'm getting used to the fact that LW whining is a universal constant that should be ignored.
My squad will be flying spits. It is fun to hear the Lufftwaffles whine.
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Hah! The force is with me!
Wait 'til you see our ack-stars in Bigweek!
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Originally posted by Seeker:
In that case I withdraw my sarcasm, and boldly state that to the best of my knowledge the 190D is the best of the 190 breed, and the Ta-152 goes even further, it's a Wolf so uber they changed it's name.
Can I have my Spit XIV now, I'm getting used to the fact that LW whining is a universal constant that should be ignored.
In AH we have D-9. D-13 for example is better Dora variant than D-9. There was also different kind of "souped up" D-9s which AH's D-9 clearly isn't. AFAIK only handful of these examples ever saw service and at the moment I have no interest in getting one of them to AH. Currently there are much more important planes to model. So to answer your argument about "the best of the breed"...well there were faster D-9s than we currently have in AH but as it is modelled AH it's a great plane and I'm happy with it.
Also main arena-wise better Ta-152 existed (Ta-152C) than the one AH has right now. Only one of them was ever built but considering how small number of Ta-152 as a whole got produced I think it counts...it was a Ta-152 no matter how you look at it. Again HTC chose the right variant of Ta-152 to model.
Same thing as above applies to Bf-109F-4 and G-6 for example but again I stand behind HTC with their choises except G-6 could have MW-50 injection...that would make a nice linear step up in performance though the whole line of 109s we have in AH.
Spitfire Mk.XIV definately deserves its place in AH since other nations allready have planes like G-10/D-9, P-51D/F4U-4, LA-7 and N1K1. The only thing is that allthough it most definately deserves to be released unperked I suspect it won't stay that way for long because of probable over usage.
And what comes to the Lw-whining...there are whiners whining about many planes and they aren't all german (does P-38 ring a bell?). Seems to me that the group whining about the whiners who whine about the german planes are the loudest growd whiners of all whiners. :) That's the reason why so called "Lw-whiners" are the most discussed group of whiners...because the whiners whining about them whine so much. :) (wow, that sounds crystal clear! :))
Anyways I hope you weren't referring to me with that "Lw-whiner" remark because you can't find a single whine about german planes posted by me to this message board and that ain't because there are no search function currently available.
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1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34
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Maybe the layout of the airfields is to blame?
Ive been drawing a few layouts.. one that I found interesting was when I put my paper on top of a join-the-dot kiddie game on the local newspaper and saw many of the dots on my own paper.
Its a bit hard to explain, ill try to scan a picture when I get home. Think of it as.. say, the BALTIC terrain. Now ERASE all the fields and depots from it. Put 3 airbases within 1.5 sectors of each other. Now, put another set of 3 airbases 4 sectors away from them. And so on. Put depots and factories back in.
Result? a map with few airfields. I didnt put more than 20 fields altogether in the map. But hey, the way it looked was that in order to ADVANCE on the other countrie's terrain was to actually take the set of 3 fields. The other set of fields, being 3 or 4 sectors away would create a set of long range battles to take the first field on the enemy front line, and then move to "close and dirty" fighting for the other 2 fields. With buffs and hi alt reinforcements coming in from other 3-set fields.
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"In AH we have D-9. D-13 "
<good stuff snipped>
Thanks. I don't know as much about the complicated marques as I'd like to. My meager Spit knowledge is not as extensive as the above.
However, I believe in general terms, in the rough classifications I'm capable of, we have what are argueable the best of their type in AH of each German fighter, that's to say, the 109 G10 (OK, it could be a K, but you guys seem unclear on the point), The 190 D (I've learnt more in your last post) and to be realistic, any 152 is yummy, thanks; not to mention the 262.
I see interminable arguments from experts on how the Lw stable should be widend or adapted on grounds of historical accuracy.
But who will these people fight and upon whom will they use thier weapons in their historical arena? The Spitfire would be excluded as either too early to be comparable or incorrectly armed to be "period" competative; and the only tank is Whermacht. Thus is the incessant Lw noise shown to be hollow; it is simply a wish for advantage; there is no historical yearning; on general terms for the game.
"And what comes to the Lw-whining...there are whiners whining about many planes and they aren't all "
<more realy good stuff snipped :)>
Well said Sir! <Bows, guilty as charged>
But I counter with this: We are all obsessive, this is a joke book typical obsessive nerds hobby. Indeed in every sim, in every game I've ever played there have been "authenticity" bores and wars. Airwarrior's will remember with horror the pedantic "Bring the P-39 to AW" campaign, or shudder at the question of "why did the Betties die?"; I'm sure there were and are WB and AH equivalents.
But only in AH have I seen so many of the bores, and so many wars come from one source, in such an organised manner as to be indentifyable. I don't know why this is. Every sim has it's fanatics, but usualy madness is a random sample. Do we even have an AH word for the Italian version of Luftwhine? Is Gatt a Spaghetti-wobble (ducks rotten fruit) or is Verm just an out and out Commie? You see?
"Anyways I hope you weren't referring to me with that "Lw-whiner" "
Hell no! Strangely, around 50% of my on-line friends fly axis planes, some to great effect.
None of them are luftwhiners either.
<S!>
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This post isnt about planesets and I haven't read a spit whine in here.
So those of you that cant stay on topic go else where.
Urchins contention is that late war faster planes will desired in the main because thats the best way to ensure you get out alive.
Also my squad flies together Urchin is part of my squad. We get lots of folks beyond what they kill us regardless the odds. But the fact remains that with the greater main numbers we see the new maps have a smaller front area then the older one(s) (a1 center /beta map). While the baltic map spreads the se nw front out a bit the se nw and nw ne fronts are limited but this map is much more playable then mindinao or the uterus map. The island map spreads it out a bit aswell but i hate the island map :).
A larger map with more bases imho would help, not cure the gangbang. Folks go where they can get the easiest kills. The gangbang vulch is the place to get those easy kills.
with these smaller maps the mission planner is so much more a gangbang planner because there are only some many places to run a mission to. These are always front line bases and with 20-30 in the mission plus the non-mission folks already there gangbang is inevitable.
Basically we have "choke points" or "bottlenecks". Larger area map wont get rid of gangbanging but maybe by gettin rid of those "bottlenecks" we can have a more "balanced war" then the current.(by balanced I mean in its distribution over a larger scale).
I would think you fluffers would be all for that :).
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>>I see interminable arguments from experts on how the Lw stable should be widend or adapted on grounds of historical accuracy.
But who will these people fight and upon whom will they use thier weapons in historical arena?<<
Seeker:
The wartime (WW2) ear saw an interminable technological competition between the warring countries which resulted in variants in virtually all models of German and British a/c. There was a desperate one upmanship which continually upped the ante and made germany hardpressed to keep up the longer the war lasted. Just because the Germans developed the TA-152 doesn't mean it should be implemented in the MA in large numbers, because in reality there were few ever produced or flown. It is correct then that if there is a D-9 in the MA, there should be a Spit XIV. Keep in mind though, the spits of later vintage were less nimble than their predecessors. They were powerful as hell with bigger engines and larger props to drive them, consistent with the evolution of fighters of the time.
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Yes, Seeker, in my FE is too slow to follow turnfighters too.
Usually it looks in this way : I am at Spit6 , D=1.0 , i see him rolling and i *know* he will turn , but as soon i see him starting a turn and i try to lead him, *suddenly* his plane jumps and I see him in my (usually) left view, in opposite side of circle ...
Only way to kill Spit/nik is to B&Z , B&Z , B&Z , B&Z , B&Z , B&Z , B&Z , B&Z , B&Z , B&Z , B&Z , B&Z untill he gets very slow.
But usually in the process someone else comes in and steal kill or kills you.
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I must be doin something wrong. I find 1v1's all th time. Against Spit's ,LA's, 190's, 109's you name it. Sure I get gangbanged from time to time and I gang bang some myself.
Changing the map wouldn't change anything either unless there was some sort of host control that only allowed 2 planes per sector....and wouldn't that be fun.
This game, just like AW or any other MMOG is what you make of it. In a word, it's the people. You can find 1v1's . Sometimes it'll stay 1v1 and sometimes the other guy is on the radio squealin for help the minute he spots yer dot. That's just the way it is, it's people.
The problem, if indeed it is a problem, is the guy who bounces an enemy within sight of that enemies friends and expects them to stay out while he BnZ's thier countryman. Again, that's "people". It's also one of the classic definitions of insanity i.e. , Repeating the same action and expecting different results.
If I was gonna squeak about anything it would be about people who want to change a great game to suit there personal bias rather than changing thier personal behavior to suit the game.
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Yep... urchin is not...wrong. He isn't right but he's not wrong either.
The way the arena is laid out with the farther fields and the ability to pork fighter operations with the added bonus of later and faster and idiotic perk planes is the cause of the gangbanging.
Slower planes that turn well (usually earlier) are stuck staying near a friendly base (swarming) because they won't be able to make it back otherwise. "missions" are nothing but planned gangbangs. Late war planes B&Z any survivors of fights.
The furball is the last vestige of fun. Find a furball between two close fields and you have a chance at some parity of fights and, if desired, you are close enough to home to maybe survive.
choose to venture out to farther fields on your own or with a friend or two and you are either wasting your time or setting yourself up for a gangbang.
lazs
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Urchin after many months of being here you have to learn as I did don't go lo don't stay slow. Get the best, fastest plane around, so when the situation does not suit your style of fighting, get out of dodge.
I was happily flying over A60 last night at 35k ft and I stayed there was engaged by some Tempests I hit wep and I was out of there came back damaged one then dove in got a B17 head on then a B26 took a while to shoot it down , Fariz came in his Yak I went straight and level MW50 buh bye yakkie and bought some time from their offensive by taking down both buffs. Simple, now that I get an understading of the arena it looks like more and more Late WW2 and more like August to March of last year of hostilities. Don't get lo or you'll get bounced never go into a fight with less than 200mph or you'll soon have some guy on your 6 who you couldn't out accel simple as that. They want to alt monkey you, you out alt monkey them, they go hi in a pony, you go hi in Ta152, and go Pony plinking with Minengeschoss.
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Urchin,
You post assumes that there is always a gang-bang. If that were the case, the side with 3-4 planes vs. your lone spit would not need the uber rides, would they? That is unless they were going to be gangbanged themselves only moments after shooting down your lone spit.
But then, that would be the "other" side doing the gang-banging now, wouldn't it?
Hmm.. I guess every side takes turns being gang-banged.. sorry
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I care less about a spit. 2 spits I start to take notice. 3 spits I begin to sweat. 4 spits and I begin to look for a way to "get the hell outta heah!". 5 spits I begin to HO like if there was no tomorrow (probably wont be). 6 + spits, I am in the AH MA.
And all is well.
Would like to see their fantasy 50 cal loadout removed. Having a plane that can out-anything except max speed you with long range guns and short range hizookas... and having an 8:1 ratio of spits vs. rest of planeset airborne in the MA is something im getting tired of.
My heart jumps in joy when I see the jug, the 109 or the 190 in the midst of spits... kinda like what a dog feels when you give it a meaty bone for a meal instead of its lifelong serving of Alpo/Purina.
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I always seem to work in a great 1 vs 1 during most "binge" sessions...mostly I do end up on the wrong end of a 1-2,3,4,5 :)...but as the saying goes a bogie on your 6 (or a bunch of em) is better than no bogie at all.
As to the planes themself's...there all dangerous if your on the wrong end :). As a loner the AH world is certainly getting tougher. I can usually hold my own for a bit in any ride I happen to be in ( I fly em all poorly :) but succumb to the 3rd or 4th con in. Of course once in a while you run into a buzzsaw and just get waxed...I think brook (from AW dos) said it best..."under the gods, but above the unwashed masses" or something to that effect.
humble/snaphook