Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: blitz on April 06, 2003, 06:46:55 AM
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EDITOR'S NOTE: What follows is a letter of resignation written by John Brady Kiesling, a member of Bush's Foreign Service Corps and Political Counselor to the American embassy in Greece. Kiesling has been a diplomat for twenty years, a civil servant to four Presidents. The letter below, delivered to Secretary of State Colin Powell, is quite possibly the most eloquent statement of dissent thus far put forth regarding the issue of Iraq. The New York Times story which reports on this remarkable event can be found after Kiesling's letter. - wrp
Go to Original
t r u t h o u t | Letter
U.S. Diplomat John Brady Kiesling
Letter of Resignation, to:
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell
ATHENS | Thursday 27 February 2003
Dear Mr. Secretary:
I am writing you to submit my resignation from the Foreign Service of the United States and from my position as Political Counselor in U.S. Embassy Athens, effective March 7. I do so with a heavy heart. The baggage of my upbringing included a felt obligation to give something back to my country. Service as a U.S. diplomat was a dream job. I was paid to understand foreign languages and cultures, to seek out diplomats, politicians, scholars and journalists, and to persuade them that U.S. interests and theirs fundamentally coincided. My faith in my country and its values was the most powerful weapon in my diplomatic arsenal.
It is inevitable that during twenty years with the State Department I would become more sophisticated and cynical about the narrow and selfish bureaucratic motives that sometimes shaped our policies. Human nature is what it is, and I was rewarded and promoted for understanding human nature. But until this Administration it had been possible to believe that by upholding the policies of my president I was also upholding the interests of the American people and the world. I believe it no longer.
The policies we are now asked to advance are incompatible not only with American values but also with American interests. Our fervent pursuit of war with Iraq is driving us to squander the international legitimacy that has been America’s most potent weapon of both offense and defense since the days of Woodrow Wilson. We have begun to dismantle the largest and most effective web of international relationships the world has ever known. Our current course will bring instability and danger, not security.
The sacrifice of global interests to domestic politics and to bureaucratic self-interest is nothing new, and it is certainly not a uniquely American problem. Still, we have not seen such systematic distortion of intelligence, such systematic manipulation of American opinion, since the war in Vietnam. The September 11 tragedy left us stronger than before, rallying around us a vast international coalition to cooperate for the first time in a systematic way against the threat of terrorism. But rather than take credit for those successes and build on them, this Administration has chosen to make terrorism a domestic political tool, enlisting a scattered and largely defeated Al Qaeda as its bureaucratic ally. We spread disproportionate terror and confusion in the public mind, arbitrarily linking the unrelated problems of terrorism and Iraq. The result, and perhaps the motive, is to justify a vast misallocation of shrinking public wealth to the military and to weaken the safeguards that protect American citizens from the heavy hand of government. September 11 did not do as much damage to the fabric of American society as we seem determined to so to ourselves. Is the Russia of the late Romanovs really our model, a selfish, superstitious empire thrashing toward self-destruction in the name of a doomed status quo?
We should ask ourselves why we have failed to persuade more of the world that a war with Iraq is necessary. We have over the past two years done too much to assert to our world partners that narrow and mercenary U.S. interests override the cherished values of our partners. Even where our aims were not in question, our consistency is at issue. The model of Afghanistan is little comfort to allies wondering on what basis we plan to rebuild the Middle East, and in whose image and interests. Have we indeed become blind, as Russia is blind in Chechnya, as Israel is blind in the Occupied Territories, to our own advice, that overwhelming military power is not the answer to terrorism? After the shambles of post-war Iraq joins the shambles in Grozny and Ramallah, it will be a brave foreigner who forms ranks with Micronesia to follow where we lead.
We have a coalition still, a good one. The loyalty of many of our friends is impressive, a tribute to American moral capital built up over a century. But our closest allies are persuaded less that war is justified than that it would be perilous to allow the U.S. to drift into complete solipsism. Loyalty should be reciprocal. Why does our President condone the swaggering and contemptuous approach to our friends and allies this Administration is fostering, including among its most senior officials. Has “oderint dum metuant” really become our motto?
I urge you to listen to America’s friends around the world. Even here in Greece, purported hotbed of European anti-Americanism, we have more and closer friends than the American newspaper reader can possibly imagine. Even when they complain about American arrogance, Greeks know that the world is a difficult and dangerous place, and they want a strong international system, with the U.S. and EU in close partnership. When our friends are afraid of us rather than for us, it is time to worry. And now they are afraid. Who will tell them convincingly that the United States is as it was, a beacon of liberty, security, and justice for the planet?
Mr. Secretary, I have enormous respect for your character and ability. You have preserved more international credibility for us than our policy deserves, and salvaged something positive from the excesses of an ideological and self-serving Administration. But your loyalty to the President goes too far. We are straining beyond its limits an international system we built with such toil and treasure, a web of laws, treaties, organizations, and shared values that sets limits on our foes far more effectively than it ever constrained America’s ability to defend its interests.
I am resigning because I have tried and failed to reconcile my conscience with my ability to represent the current U.S. Administration. I have confidence that our democratic process is ultimately self-correcting, and hope that in a small way I can contribute from outside to shaping policies that better serve the security and prosperity of the American people and the world we share.
John Brady Kiesling
Go to Original
U.S. Diplomat Resigns, Protesting 'Our Fervent Pursuit of War'
By Felicity Barringer
New York Times
Thursday 27 February 2003
UNITED NATIONS — A career diplomat who has served in United States embassies from Tel Aviv to Casablanca to Yerevan resigned this week in protest against the country's policies on Iraq.
The diplomat, John Brady Kiesling, the political counselor at the United States Embassy in Athens, said in his resignation letter, "Our fervent pursuit of war with Iraq is driving us to squander the international legitimacy that has been America's most potent weapon of both offense and defense since the days of Woodrow Wilson."
Mr. Kiesling, 45, who has been a diplomat for about 20 years, said in a telephone interview tonight that he faxed the letter to Secretary of State Colin L, Powell on Monday after informing Thomas Miller, the ambassador in Athens, of his decision.
He said he had acted alone, but "I've been comforted by the expressions of support I've gotten afterward" from colleagues.
"No one has any illusions that the policy will be changed," he said. "Too much has been invested in the war."
Louis Fintor, a State Department spokesman, said he had no information on Mr. Kiesling's decision and it was department policy not to comment on personnel matters.
In his letter, a copy of which was provided to The New York Times by a friend of Mr. Kiesling's, the diplomat wrote Mr. Powell: "We should ask ourselves why we have failed to persuade more of the world that a war with Iraq is necessary. We have over the past two years done too much to assert to our world partners that narrow and mercenary U.S. interests override the cherished values of our partners."
His letter continued: "Even where our aims were not in question, our consistency is at issue. The model of Afghanistan is little comfort to allies wondering on what basis we plan to rebuild the Middle East, and in whose image and interests."
It is rare but not unheard-of for a diplomat, immersed in the State Department's culture of public support for policy, regardless of private feelings, to resign with this kind of public blast. From 1992 to 1994, five State Department officials quit out of frustration with the Clinton administration's Balkans policy.
Asked if his views were widely shared among his diplomatic colleagues, Mr. Kiesling said: "No one of my colleagues is comfortable with our policy. Everyone is moving ahead with it as good and loyal. The State Department is loaded with people who want to play the team game — we have a very strong premium on loyalty."
Regards Blitz :)
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
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What's your point?
BTW...cya!
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Originally posted by Sixpence
What's your point?
BTW...cya, Mr. Kiesling
Regards Blitz :D
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous- It's a classic bloody 'Aggression War'
When will this tough little country of Vietnam see that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common :
Their pride
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That's a good point:D
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BTW , as the horrors of saddam's regime come to light, will you admit you are wrong?
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Originally posted by blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
blitz I really dont want to have ago but jesus that really got my back up.
When will this 'tough little country' get an apology? are you insane or just dont give a damn about places you dont see?
Youre prepared to effectively condone regimes like Saddams in order to not get involved in wars like the present one? 'This 'tough little country' has a military leader who is quite happy to gas and kill an entire town just to remove what it considers a thorn in its side, the Khurdish Iraqi.His sectret police (or not so secret!) regularly kidnap and murder Iraqi people who they must consider a threat to their power and the families are without any chance of retribution or justice.This tough little country was at war for over 8 years with Iran and regularly used nerve agents and poison gas on them , often actually killing more of their own troops when rediculous things like a change in wind direction blew their own poisons on their own troops.This tough little country who invaded their neighbours and raped and killed in the streets and again kidnapped and murdered people who now fell under their control.
This tough little country who tortured and beat my countries soldiers during the Gulf war and ive no doubt have started doing again to the present prisoners.
You know what blitz, I would like to see you walk up to one of those captured soldiers after the war and tell him how he owes Saddam an apology.
This man Saddam, a lunatic, but unfortunately a very clever one, brought the worlds attention upon himself with his endless lists of human rights violations and continued demands for holy wars on the west. The man is a fruit cake and as long as hes around he will do everything in his power to destablise the world and the US /Euro /Asian control on the wrld markets.
So we risk all to rid ourselves of him before he does something even worse.If you ask me most of those that agree something has to be done are people that most desire peace in the world but dont want to sit back when it means allowing scum like Saddam to rule over human beings the way he does. If you ask me the peace protesters are the ones that are advocating ignoring an entire countries morals and evil actions merely for peace.Well you go bury your head in the sand blitz, who knows maybe all the bad guys will just dissapear without so much as a bad word said eh? Who knows, if we pull out now maybe Saddam would start spending the billions he has spent on Arms to help his people who are dieing all around him in droves? Yeah sure he would , I mean look at the progress he has made since 1985!! wonderfull...amazing those reforms eh?
Im sorry blitz but you have dissapointed me here. I realise you dont want war and neither do I. But what if it is true that Saddam is producing weapons like biological bombs? what if its true some US officials see fortunes as the result of the war and their motives are questionable. Saddam Hussain will still be gone. The country wont be used by a despot as a huge productions facility. Its the scale of the threat which makes him so dangerous.Once he loses most of his power whatever he can do is reduced in scope and scale by the fact he cannot use the billions he earns in oil sales.
I dont care if there are those in power who see the $'s in oil and look on with greed. I know there are enough human beings with humility in my countries government(UK) at least, to trust that we are not there to invade or steal, Im sure there are enough good people in the US government to do the same and see that what we promise to do for Iraq is carried through.There are always going to be those that will make sure Iaqi people, the long suffering people are given what belongs to them.Their own country back.Maybe we will see a certain amount of skimming the cream, I hope not but sheesh this is the world AS IT IS. It doesnt matter what country or race we speak of, theres always those that are in it for the money be they muslim christian catholic or jew, white or black.The main thing is Saddam wont be supporting anymore fundamentalists.
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Now that you've taken the time to comment on his sig, do ya have anything to say about his actual, uhm, you know, post?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
BTW , as the horrors of saddam's regime come to light, will you admit you are wrong?
The blame America first and hate America crowd will now quit because of the what will come to light. Their selfish positions will fall like a house of cards. Therefore they must exit the arena of ideas. They will leave in a huff and demand that they are on the moral high ground, but as more and more of the truth of Saddam's rule is revealed the ground under their feet will shirnk. They know this now and must leave.
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nah, once the evidence shows the Bush admin was/is right once again, the media camera lights will go dark quickly .... they'll find some missing kid story to follow 24/7 instead ...
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Sadly, I turn away as I thought Blitz was going to leave AH to go to the asylum he so badly needs!
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Have you looked at the footage of the warehouse full of corpses?
Many with neat little holes in their skulls. They didnt even have the decency to bury them.
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Dang, we lost a political counselor? The horror.
Blitz is thretend by US in no way its ridicalus.
His posts are "Aggression War"
When will Germany apologize to the Iraqi citizens for arming Saddam?
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"I dont care if there are those in power who see the $'s in oil and look on with greed."
hazed
people who belive in law do care. when you get down to it its that simple.
your say damn the law. i reply damn you.
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STFU, Blitch![/size]
(http://www.gawth.com/~desolate/dieter.jpg)
Wait .... Nash's avatar .....
Now is the time on Sprockets when we dance ......
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(http://modena.intergate.ca/personal/cwharton/sbm/rumble2001/rumbleposter.jpg)
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R*O*F*L :D
Originally posted by Nash
(http://modena.intergate.ca/personal/cwharton/sbm/rumble2001/rumbleposter.jpg)
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Originally posted by hazed-
blitz I really dont want to have ago but jesus that really got my back up.
When will this 'tough little country' get an apology? are you insane or just dont give a damn about places you dont see?
Youre prepared to effectively condone regimes like Saddams in order to not get involved in wars like the present one? 'This 'tough little country' has a military leader who is quite happy to gas and kill an entire town just to remove what it considers a thorn in its side, the Khurdish Iraqi.His sectret police (or not so secret!) regularly kidnap and murder Iraqi people who they must consider a threat to their power and the families are without any chance of retribution or justice.This tough little country was at war for over 8 years with Iran and regularly used nerve agents and poison gas on them , often actually killing more of their own troops when rediculous things like a change in wind direction blew their own poisons on their own troops.This tough little country who invaded their neighbours and raped and killed in the streets and again kidnapped and murdered people who now fell under their control.
This tough little country who tortured and beat my countries soldiers during the Gulf war and ive no doubt have started doing again to the present prisoners.
You know what blitz, I would like to see you walk up to one of those captured soldiers after the war and tell him how he owes Saddam an apology.
This man Saddam, a lunatic, but unfortunately a very clever one, brought the worlds attention upon himself with his endless lists of human rights violations and continued demands for holy wars on the west. The man is a fruit cake and as long as hes around he will do everything in his power to destablise the world and the US /Euro /Asian control on the wrld markets.
So we risk all to rid ourselves of him before he does something even worse.If you ask me most of those that agree something has to be done are people that most desire peace in the world but dont want to sit back when it means allowing scum like Saddam to rule over human beings the way he does. If you ask me the peace protesters are the ones that are advocating ignoring an entire countries morals and evil actions merely for peace.Well you go bury your head in the sand blitz, who knows maybe all the bad guys will just dissapear without so much as a bad word said eh? Who knows, if we pull out now maybe Saddam would start spending the billions he has spent on Arms to help his people who are dieing all around him in droves? Yeah sure he would , I mean look at the progress he has made since 1985!! wonderfull...amazing those reforms eh?
Im sorry blitz but you have dissapointed me here. I realise you dont want war and neither do I. But what if it is true that Saddam is producing weapons like biological bombs? what if its true some US officials see fortunes as the result of the war and their motives are questionable. Saddam Hussain will still be gone. The country wont be used by a despot as a huge productions facility. Its the scale of the threat which makes him so dangerous.Once he loses most of his power whatever he can do is reduced in scope and scale by the fact he cannot use the billions he earns in oil sales.
I dont care if there are those in power who see the $'s in oil and look on with greed. I know there are enough human beings with humility in my countries government(UK) at least, to trust that we are not there to invade or steal, Im sure there are enough good people in the US government to do the same and see that what we promise to do for Iraq is carried through.There are always going to be those that will make sure Iaqi people, the long suffering people are given what belongs to them.Their own country back.Maybe we will see a certain amount of skimming the cream, I hope not but sheesh this is the world AS IT IS. It doesnt matter what country or race we speak of, theres always those that are in it for the money be they muslim christian catholic or jew, white or black.The main thing is Saddam wont be supporting anymore fundamentalists.
Sorry hazed , was in a hurry this morn to get on my bicycle.
Frogot 1 word by accident, nevermind, my fault :)
Regards Blitz
btw hazed, who was Saddams friend when he murdered 125 000iranian people with that chemical WMDs?
He is and always was a lunatic murderer of his own people, no doubt! Who supported him all that years?
Did they care about human rights in Iraq all that years?
Is Kuwait a democrazy now as it was promised just before last gulf war?
Is it believable that people now claim moral highground, who supported him all that years while he murdered and tortured?
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/history/2003/0117gas.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/history/2002/1231rumsfeld.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/saddam/2002/1230buildup.htm
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
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Originally posted by Nash
(http://modena.intergate.ca/personal/cwharton/sbm/rumble2001/rumbleposter.jpg)
:D nice 1
Regards Blitz
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The question you, and everyone else who uses that tired argument, need to answer Blitz is whether or not you supported that decision by the US in the 80s. As the positions are opposite to each other, to use the primary portion of the article implies the US was wrong not to stop Iraq in the 80s. I agree with you this is a bad thing, but if it is, how then is wrong now? Aside from the fact it is a US decision, mind you, and aside from the fact Germany will lose exports to Saddam at a precipitous time in their economy. Think globally, not so selfishly.
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Originally posted by Fatty
Dang, we lost a political counselor? The horror.
Blitz is thretend by US in no way its ridicalus.
His posts are "Aggression War"
When will Germany apologize to the Iraqi citizens for arming Saddam?
Oh yes, i feel threatened by US foreign policy.
Your governments violation of international law is unbelievable for a democrazy. It's a 50 years stepback in political culture :(
My country, is involved in selling things to Saddam he shouldn't possess, that's right.
But we didn't commit a war without UN just to gain stategic control over the middle east, that's right , too.
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
50 year stepback in political culture?
Interesting, that puts us right at...hrm, the berlin airlift?
You're right, it's madness!
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Originally posted by Fatty
The question you, and everyone else who uses that tired argument, need to answer Blitz is whether or not you supported that decision by the US in the 80s. As the positions are opposite to each other, to use the primary portion of the article implies the US was wrong not to stop Iraq in the 80s. I agree with you this is a bad thing, but if it is, how then is wrong now? Aside from the fact it is a US decision, mind you, and aside from the fact Germany will lose exports to Saddam at a precipitous time in their economy. Think globally, not so selfishly.
It is NOT wrong GENERALLY. I would be a good idea to 'fight' against dictators all over the world politically.
But the way your government choose is the most worse possible.
We'are back now to the most important political argument before 1900:
"I'm stronger than you and therefore i can do what i want, take it or die! " :(
Regards Blitz
btw India announced today they will get ICBMs. Who will blame them for that decision after this political catastrophy? Not me.
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
""""Service as a U.S. diplomat was a dream job. """"
don't worry buddy , you can always get a teaching job at berkeley or columbia.
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It sounds like something got lost in the translation Blitz.
What you mean to say is, "honor the ceasefire you signed or else we will resume the war we paused in good faith when you asked for it"
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And take your head out of that idealistic bubble just for a second, please.
Did you really say, "a good idea to 'fight' against dictators all over the world politically."?
How exactly did you plan to do that, without the threat/use of force? A referendum?
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Originally posted by Fatty
And take your head out of that idealistic bubble just for a second, please.
Did you really say, "a good idea to 'fight' against dictators all over the world politically."?
How exactly did you plan to do that, without the threat/use of force? A referendum?
Candlelight vigils!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Candlelight vigils!
Darn, I thought Blitz was leaving too.
Did anyone bother to read that cut and paste ?
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"""Candlelight vigils! """" wow, kool, hippy chicks an everything, can i bring my getar an we can sing anti-war folk songs?
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Originally posted by Fatty
And take your head out of that idealistic bubble just for a second, please.
Did you really say, "a good idea to 'fight' against dictators all over the world politically."?
How exactly did you plan to do that, without the threat/use of force? A referendum?
I rely on US foreign politics if it will ever try to change the violent dictatorship regimes of their very OWN allies: Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and others.
And i hope they try it without War, this time -> use your brain, act politically :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
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Originally posted by john9001
can i bring my getar an we can sing anti-war folk songs?
Of course, Saddam cannot fail to be moved by your touching rendition of be sure to waer flowers in your hair.
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So Blitz, you would support the US if they stopped supporting dictators and instead pushed to expel them?
How interesting, and here I thought you were against that.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Darn, I thought Blitz was leaving too.
Did i bother to read ?
Try it, it's good stuff :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
No fatty he would simply then say the USA was being a bully and meddling with other countries.
You see Blitz was brainwashed in east germany to always hate america - he cant help it.
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Originally posted by Fatty
So Blitz, you would support the US if they stopped supporting dictators and instead pushed to expel them?
How interesting, and here I thought you were against that.
Expel ?
Nevermind, Fatty, life is complicated.
No black and white, no evil and good, no 'crystal clear'
That's it :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
I see, because if you read what he said it's actually an endorsement of regime change in Iraq.
The funny part is I'm not even too keen on the war, especially the diplomacy leading up to it. But arguments as redikulus as these against it are converting me more and more by the day, more so than any propoganda machine could ever do.
The state department should just publish Blitz's antiwar arguments nationwide, and you'd see unprecedented support for the war.
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America is a big war monger and that's all we ever think about. Our leaders constantly try to figure out what innocent countries to attack.
Maybe Blitz's ideal world would include an America with no military. I'll bet this world would be a lot more safe and sane if the US had no millitary.
After the US is out of the picture, there would never be another war unless it was authorized by the mighty UN....because we all know that only the US goes to war without permission from the UN
Here's an idea: Let every country on Earth join the UN and give them all veto power....... a true democracy. That should officially end all war.
If the UN tried to vote for a war against any given country, that country could just veto it. This would be revolutionary and would end all wars.
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So now it's black and white, not clear? But you said earlier the US supported evil regimes all thru the middle east. Are those crystal clear and this is not, or are those muddled too?
Just trying to be clear on which of your conflicting arguments you're actually going to stick by.
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Good riddance.
Just a few more rutabagas left to resign, and we'll have a decent administration.
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Originally posted by NUKE
America is a big war monger and that's all we ever think about. Our leaders constantly try to figure out what innocent countries to attack.
Maybe Blitz's ideal world would include an America with no millitary. I'll bet this world would be a lot more safe and sane if the US had no millitary.
After the US is out of the picture, there would never be another war unless it was authorized by the mighty UN....because we all know that only the US goes to war without permission from the UN
Here's an idea: Let every country on Earth join the UN and give them all veto power....... a true democracy. That should officially end all war.
If the UN tried to vote for a war against any given country, that country could just veto it. This would be revolutionary and would end all wars.
It's not "America in general", it's ya government!
And if their foreign politics wasn't that poor they wouldn't be seen as warmongers now by most of the world.
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
Originally posted by Fatty
So now it's black and white, not clear? But you said earlier the US supported evil regimes all thru the middle east. Are those crystal clear and this is not, or are those muddled too?
Just trying to be clear on which of your conflicting arguments you're actually going to stick by.
Your government are acting as they are Gods without any sins concerning dictatorship regimes all around the world.
Looking back in ya own backyard that is ridiculous.
America is a nation like a hundred others, just bigger.
It has good people and bad ones.
Your government makes good policy sometimes, and sometimes bad . This whole Iraq thing is the worst one for a long period in american foreign policy history.
What they say to the world is: We are the good ones, with the biggest musceles and because of this we are aloud now to do anything we want, no matter what others say, no matter what international law says.
I call that an ignorant, bad behaviour that had caused harm to the international community and most likely will create a lot more terrorism. Shame on ya Mr. Bush :(
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
Blitz, in your oft enlighted criticisms of the US policies in the past, you seem keen on making black and white arguments. Support of Saddam in the past, support of oppresive middle east governments currently. You do in fact in all of these arguments, while not trying to, endorse the current action in Iraq.
Yet when called on that change in interpretation of actions and policies, suddenly things are more murky, and not black and white when it comes to Iraq. You cannot have it both ways, at least wait until a different thread do take such conflicting stances and you will not look nearly so foolish.
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Originally posted by blitz
Oh yes, i feel threatened by US foreign policy.
Your governments violation of international law is unbelievable for a democrazy. It's a 50 years stepback in political culture :(
Blitz,
I find it sad that a German citizen even has the gall to say any other nation has set the world back 50 years in politics, when it is your country's actions that have set the world back politically 100 years. Had your people had the balls to stand up to Hitler in '33, WW2 would not have happened, the US and Soviets would not have squared off over your country, and the cold war would never have happened. Without a cold war, there would have been no arming of horrible little third world nations, and hence the strife would be a tenth what it is in the middle east now. So in conclusion, I find it to be Germany's fault that all this is happening, and from here on out expect apologies to the rest of the world for yet another catastrophe caused by the Germans, that the US is having to finish.
:mad:
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Originally posted by blitz
Your government are acting as they are Gods without any sins concerning dictatorship regimes all around the world.
Looking back in ya own backyard that is ridiculous.
America is a nation like a hundred others, just bigger.
It has good people and bad ones.
Your government makes good policy sometimes, and sometimes bad . This whole Iraq thing is the worst one for a long period in american foreign policy history.
What they say to the world is: We are the good ones, with the biggest musceles and because of this we are aloud now to do anything we want, no matter what others say, no matter what international law says.
I call that an ignorant, bad behaviour that had caused harm to the international community and most likely will create a lot more terrorism. Shame on ya Mr. Bush :(
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
The vast majority of Americans disagree with you. Since you don't vote here, you don't have a say. You can sit on the side lines and whine, cry, and stomp your feet.
You can't do crap to affect the outcome, though. How horrible it must be to live in a broken country.
Further, don't talk to me about international law. The US has broken none. They are acting in accordance to UN resolution 1441. Germany, on the other hand, is in violation. Start protesting your own country.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Of course, Saddam cannot fail to be moved by your touching rendition of be sure to waer flowers in your hair.
Grunherz - thats not an anti war protest song,
The one you are looking for is 'Where have all the flowers gone'...
-
Blitz, your voice counts for nothing. Your country counts for nothing. Take it!!!!
-
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Blitz, an aplogy for what? State specifically what the USA should apologize for.
-
China and Russia should apologize to us for helping North Vietnam wage a war of agression against South Vietnam.
South Vietnam was no threat to North Vietnam. It's redeculis.
-
Originally posted by Puke
Blitz, an aplogy for what? State specifically what the USA should apologize for.
If ya don't know that by yourself it can't be helped :(
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
Originally posted by Steve
Blitz, your voice counts for nothing. Your country counts for nothing. Take it!!!!
I know that very well :)
Bother to read the post of Mr. Kiesling ?
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
Originally posted by funkedup
China and Russia should apologize to us for helping North Vietnam wage a war of agression against South Vietnam.
South Vietnam was no threat to North Vietnam. It's redeculis.
That war was lost by US because it was a great unjustice!
The world sah it like that, american people sah it like that!
Like it or not , that war against Vietnam was a political crime.
Media had a great impact on the outcome of this war , as we all know.
That is exactly why we had all that propaganda shows before the Iraq war and have this "embedded" reporters now.
To have propaganda to the enemy is 1 point , to make a propaganda war to the population of your own country and the world is another.
Your current government is world champion of propaganda.
I dislike that.
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
IMHO, John Brady Kiesling is a man worthy of respect.
-
Reading Blitz posts should remove all doubt as to the long lasting effects of east german communist propaganda.
eek proffesional mental help blitz...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Reading Blitz posts should remove all doubt as to the long lasting effects of east german communist propaganda.
eek proffesional mental help blitz...
Is Mr. Kiesling brainwashed too ?
Regards Blitz
-
No, but you are.
-
Originally posted by blitz
Is Mr. Kiesling brainwashed too ?
Regards Blitz
Thank you for ya answer :)
And Mary Ann Wright, she is brainwashed , too?
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
Quick Vietnam history lesson for Blitz:
1850's: France forcibly takes over Vietnam/ Cambodia Laos area and plunders the resources until WWII ( America Universally Blamed)
Post WWII: France takes control of area once again and is driven out by 1954 ( all Americas fault)
1954 ( around that time) Geneva peace agreement forms North and South Vietnam with intentions for a reunification election to follow.
1957 North Attacks South ( America's fault)
1961 : President John F. Kennedy orders more help for the South Vietnamese government in its war against the Vietcong guerrillas.
1975: US Congress denies any aid to South despite demands from Nixon, then Ford
1975: US leaves, North takes over the South
Conclusion:
1.France screwed over the area for almost 100 years, got kicked out.
2. North and South Vietnam formed
3. North ( communists) attack South
4. US defends South
5. 1975 US congress denies demands By Nixon, then Ford to give any aid to South.
6. US leaves
7. Communists take over
So do we owe an appology for trying to defend the South against the North?
-
No she is not, but you are.
-
Originally posted by blitz
Thank you for ya answer :)
And Mary Ann Wright, she is brainwashed , too?
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
This one is definately brainwashed :D
Published on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 by Reuters
U.S. Guilty of 'Shocking Double Standards' on Iraq - Butler
SYDNEY - Former U.N. arms inspector Richard Butler said Tuesday that Washington was promoting "shocking double standards" in considering taking unilateral military action to rid Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction.
Former chief U.N. weapons inspector Richard Butler gestures during his seminar presentation entitled "Weapons of Mass Destruction - the Iraq Case and All the Others,' in Sydney on Jan. 28, 2003. Butler said Tuesday that Washington was promoting 'shocking double standards' in considering taking unilateral military action to rid Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction. Photo by Tim Wimborne/Reuters
Butler, who led U.N. inspection teams in Iraq until Baghdad kicked them out in 1998 (Common Dreams Editor's note: This is not true. See: http://www.fair.org/extra/0210/inspectors.html), said Iraqi President Saddam Hussein undoubtedly possessed weapons of mass destruction, and was trying to "cheat" his way again out of the latest U.N. demand to disarm.
But a U.S. attack, without United Nations backing, and without any effort to curb the possession of weapons of mass destruction globally, would be a contravention of international law and sharpen the divide between Arabs and the West.
"The spectacle of the United States, armed with its weapons of mass destruction, acting without Security Council authority to invade a country in the heartland of Arabia and, if necessary, use its weapons of mass destruction to win that battle, is something that will so deeply violate any notion of fairness in this world that I strongly suspect it could set loose forces that we would deeply live to regret," Butler said.
Butler's successor as the chief U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq, Hans Blix, reported Monday to the 15-member Security Council that Baghdad had only reluctantly complied with its latest demand to disarm.
Washington is pressing the United Nations to take firm action but says it is prepared to go it alone and has amassed a considerable military force in the region.
Butler, addressing a conservative Australian think-tank, The Sydney Institute, said the stated U.S. motive -- to rid Iraq of weapons of mass destruction -- lacked credibility because of Washington's failure to deal with others on the same terms.
Countries such as Syria are suspected of possessing chemical or biological warfare capabilities, he said.
U.S. allies Israel, Pakistan and India have nuclear arsenals but have not signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
The United States and other permanent Security Council members were themselves the possessors of the world's largest quantities of nuclear weapons, he said.
"Why are they permitting the persistence of such shocking double standards?" Butler said.
He said that, instead of beating the drums of war, the United States should propose an international mechanism -- similar to the Security Council -- to enforce the application of the three main conventions controlling the proliferation of nuclear, chemical and biological weaponry.
It should also take the lead by reducing its own stockpiles.
"I hope we don't have to await the train wreck before we decide to change history," Butler said.
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
Gruen, you're to slow :D
Regards Blitz
-
Blitz, I thought you quit?
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Quick Vietnam history lesson for Blitz:
So do we owe an appology for trying to defend the South against the North?
Yes, but will take it's time and a great Statesman to do so, noone in sight right now :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Blitz, I thought you quit?
Damn, stay out, you hit the red botton, don't ya? :D
Regards blitz
btw Top line was meant for Mr. Kiesling.Guys with a sense of sarkasm noticed that, don't bother to read Mr. Kieslings letter, though :D
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
Originally posted by blitz
Yes, but will take it's time and a great Statesman to do so, noone in sight right now :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
Blitz are you saying that you back the North Vietnamese communists agression against the South?
Are you saying that America was the agressor?
-
I think Blitz just lost all his marbels.
Blitz says America should appologize to Vietnam for trying to DEFEND South Vietnam against North Vietnam's agression.
Says a lot about him.
Wonder what Blitz thinks North Vietnam is responible for? Blitz, does North Vietnam have any blame in the matter or is it just America's fault that they invaded the South?
Wonder why the North Vietnamese agressor/invader/conquerer gets convieniently overlooked by Blitz < end edit>
-
Boy for somebody who's leaving you sure do post a lot blitz. Why don't you STFU and go away you pathetic bush hater....
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Blitz are you saying that you back the North Vietnamese communists agression against the South?
Are you saying that America was the agressor?
Hey boy, read some history or get the american newpapers from 1966 to 1972, then you'll probably find out.
Regards Blitz
btw "My Lai" massaker ,"Search and Destroy" Get ya hankerchief ready :(
Only very poor souls say that war did any good
And please, don't blame the soldiers for that! It wasn't their fault, as usual, politicians make war.
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
Originally posted by blitz
Hey boy, read some history or get the american newpapers from 1966 to 1972, then you'll probably find out.
Regards Blitz
btw "My Lai" massaker ,"Search and Destroy" Get ya hankerchief ready :(
Only very poor souls say that war did any good
And please, don't blame the soldiers for that! It wasn't their fault, as usual, politicians make war.
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
You are a classic Blitz. North Vietnam created that whole war by it's agression against the South yet you don't even bother to consider blaming them, the Communist invaders and eventual conquerers.
You are a sad person.
-
Hey blitz did the north vietnamese communist forces ever kill anyone during that war, was north vietnam in any way responsble for starting the war?
-
When the North was busy invading the South in Vietnam, Blitz's dad was probably busy telling the South Vietnamese that the North presented a threat in know way.....it's just rediculiss.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
When the North was busy invading the South in Vietnam, Blitz's dad was probably busy telling the South Vietnamese that the North presented a threat in know way.....it's just rediculiss.
Nuke and Gruen, try read a bit, please :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
We are reading what you said. Now answer the questions I asked you.
Hey blitz did the north vietnamese communist forces ever kill anyone during that war, was north vietnam in any way responsble for starting the war?
-
Someone do something about Blitch's mile long political rant sig. It's eating more bandwidth than the rest of his useless agenda driven posts now. ;)
-
Originally posted by blitz
Nuke and Gruen, try read a bit, please :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
Oh, very informed answer to a direct question blitz. I don't blame you though.....you really can't answer after all the stupid statements you have already made.
-
I can't wait until Tony Blair begins the occupation of Germany.
-
Hazed you hit the nail on the head there Bro!!
Good response I agree 100%
-
Please see post titled:
Germany owes the world an apology!
-
Blitz... take it!!! You're more misinformed than anyone I've ever had a discussion with. Take it, my little impotent boy from an impotent country. Take it!!!!!
-
Intresting... This thread we rehash Vietnam, another thread rehashes the Civil War... Where's the discussion on Crimea? or the Boer War? I'm really pissed off about the public perceptions of the causes of the Boer War....
I wonder how long it will be after Baghdad's fall before we stop discussing this conflict. Seems that the "are we there yet?" crowd has been silenced.
Just heard US took the Presidential Palace in Baghdad.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
We are reading what you said. Now answer the questions I asked you.
Hey blitz did the north vietnamese communist forces ever kill anyone during that war, was north vietnam in any way responsble for starting the war?
History books, Pappnase ! :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was plain ridiculous- It's a classic "Agression War.
When will this tough little country of Vietnam get that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common:
Their pride
-
So you are unwilling to say that north vietnam was in any way responsible for the vietnam war....
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Post WWII: France takes control of area once again and is driven out by 1954 ( all Americas fault)
1954 ( around that time) Geneva peace agreement forms North and South Vietnam with intentions for a reunification election to follow.
Can you make a little search about the 3/24/27 april of 1954 ?
-
Originally posted by Udie
Boy for somebody who's leaving you sure do post a lot blitz. Why don't you STFU and go away you pathetic bush hater....
Sorry Udie, must be a misunderstanding, it's a well experiented diplomat of the US administration, John Brady Kiesling who quits, after 20 years of serving his country,because of Mr. Bushs deadly politics, nevermind :)
Regards Blitz
btw Can't wait to get back into my trusty P51, only waiting till the killing is over, can't stand to fly at the moment.
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous- It's a classic bloody 'Aggression War'
When will this tough little country of Vietnam see that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common :
Their pride
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Intresting... This thread we rehash Vietnam, another thread rehashes the Civil War... Where's the discussion on Crimea? or the Boer War? I'm really pissed off about the public perceptions of the causes of the Boer War....
I wonder how long it will be after Baghdad's fall before we stop discussing this conflict. Seems that the "are we there yet?" crowd has been silenced.
Just heard US took the Presidential Palace in Baghdad.
You're absolutely spot on. Normaly people forget very fast concerning bad politics.
But this time it's different.
Bush & CO dammaged the image of american politics very hard.
Most likely will take some years to repair this time :(
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous- It's a classic bloody 'Aggression War'
When will this tough little country of Vietnam see that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common :
Their pride
-
Originally posted by blitz
Bush & CO dammaged the image of american politics very hard.
Not in the U.S., and that's where it matters.
-
Originally posted by Martlet
Not in the U.S., and that's where it matters.
That's common sense :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous- It's a classic bloody 'Aggression War'
When will this tough little country of Vietnam see that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common :
Their pride
-
Originally by John Brady Kiesling
solipsism
Bonus points on vocabulary.
-
Originally posted by blitz
That's common sense :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous- It's a classic bloody 'Aggression War'
When will this tough little country of Vietnam see that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common :
Their pride
Do you play AH?
-
Originally posted by Martlet
Do you play AH?
Me???? I hate wargames all my life.
Would never ever touch something evil !!!!! :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous- It's a classic bloody 'Aggression War'
When will this tough little country of Vietnam see that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common :
Their pride
-
Originally posted by blitz
Me???? I hate wargames all my life.
Would never ever touch something evil !!!!! :D
Thought so. I'm quickly realizing the biggest mouths on the side of "I hate America" belong to those that don't even play the game.
Furthering my support to close the BBS to non AH members.
-
Originally posted by Martlet
Thought so. I'm quickly realizing the biggest mouths on the side of "I hate America" belong to those that don't even play the game.
Furthering my support to close the BBS to non AH members.
Sorry Martlet, was by accident that i ran into this forum, didn't even know this was a wargame or i would have stayed out :D
I don't want to play this evil game but can ya give me 1 answer as i never tried something like that?
Is it fun to play?
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous- It's a classic bloody 'Aggression War'
When will this tough little country of Vietnam see that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common :
Their pride
-
But you won't get ride of Blitz or me ;)
You obvioulsy never seen Blitz kill the VH ,de-ack a large field and then bring back a goon to make a capture on his one :)
(it was before the introduction of town)
in the process it managed to kill me twice :p
-
Guys
Save yourself the frustration, just put Blitz on ignore.
I am sure he gets a hard on every time his gets one of you to respond to his utterly stupid posts. I bet he sit in his underwear, and waits, his room dark, a dank un-wholesome smell coming from his room.
I would be he has no real friends and no life...
If he believe the stuff he is posting he is one of the sickest and most mis informed fools I have ever seen. He tells others to go read a book about Vietnam after he call the US the aggressor?
Come on he is either so brain washed, or stupid he is not worth the trouble. Or he is just a trouble maker and you are playing into his hands.
Either way he is not worth anyone's time.
There are smart people up here who often post counter viewpoints, Sandman Dowding and MT come to mind, they are all good guys and generally fun to discuss things with. Why waste the time on a spaz like blitz?
-
Originally posted by GtoRA2
Guys
Save yourself the frustration, just put Blitz on ignore.
I am sure he gets a hard on every time his gets one of you to respond to his utterly stupid posts. I bet he sit in his underwear, and waits, his room dark, a dank un-wholesome smell coming from his room.
I would be he has no real friends and no life...
If he believe the stuff he is posting he is one of the sickest and most mis informed fools I have ever seen. He tells others to go read a book about Vietnam after he call the US the aggressor?
Come on he is either so brain washed, or stupid he is not worth the trouble. Or he is just a trouble maker and you are playing into his hands.
Either way he is not worth anyone's time.
There are smart people up here who often post counter viewpoints, Sandman Dowding and MT come to mind, they are all good guys and generally fun to discuss things with. Why waste the time on a spaz like blitz?
Some tried, didn't work, not even GtoRa2 had any success doin it :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous- It's a classic bloody 'Aggression War'
When will this tough little country of Vietnam see that apology?
Americans and Vietnamese have something in common :
Their pride
Regards Blitz
-
We did NOT invade Iraq.....we just heard some shots and was curious....
:D
-
Can't you tell that Blitz is really a frustrated "young republican" who is still mad that Nixon got caught:}
:rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Silat
Can't you tell that Blitz is really a frustrated "young republican" who is still mad that Nixon got caught:}
:rolleyes:
Nixon got caught? DAMMIT!
-
I love how whenever he's challenged with a question in return he always tells that person to read the history book he seems apparently unable to reference. Of course, that being said, I bet his "library of reference material" isn't biased in the least.
STFU, Blitch![/size]
(http://www.gawth.com/~desolate/dieter.jpg)
Dieter, this isn't a political forum only. This is the off-topic forum offered for AH players to discuss non-game related issues if they choose. Try posting something entertaining or non-political for a change before you get squelched by everyone here. Of course, perhaps you are too one dimensional to accomplish that.
Oh ... and one minor critique:
As cute as it is to see you try to use American slang in your sentences ....
"Ya" doesn't work for "your". Ya can be substituted for "you". Try "yer" for "your". Read a fuggin slang book. :D
-
Nuke.
The depths of what you dont know about the US invasion of Indo china is amazing.
1954 ( around that time) Geneva peace agreement forms North and South Vietnam with intentions for a reunification election to follow.
So why no elections in two years as they had signed? Do you even know?
lol
-
Originally posted by Pongo
Nuke.
The depths of what you dont know about the US invasion of Indo china is amazing.
So why no elections in two years as they had signed? Do you even know?
lol
Yes I know. It's because a state of war existed almost immediatly after the two sides were formed, partly due to the North attempting to destablize the South.
-
Shaking Off Saddam
By Rod Nordland
NEWSWEEK WEB EXCLUSIVE
April 8 — Adnan Shaker has a tiny passport picture of himself that he’s somehow managed to save during his three years in one of Saddam Hussein’s prisons. It shows a handsome man in his 20s, lean and fit, with a luxurious mustache and thick black hair. Today his own three children would probably not recognize him as the same person.
HIS HAIR is cropped short. Half his teeth have been knocked out, his face is battered and the eyes sunken and haunted-looking. His chest is covered with 50 separate cuts from a knife, his back has even more marks, which he says are cigarette burns. Two of his fingers were broken and deliberately bent into a permanent, contorted position and there’s a hole in the middle of his palm where his torturers stabbed him and twisted the blade.
Today, though, Adnan was a happy man, so happy that he could barely restrain his excitement. He was finally freed from a prison in downtown Basra, after British troops entered the city and drove the remaining defenders away. And as he took a small group of American journalists on a tour of the hospital, he enthusiastically led a crowd of fellow ex-prisoners, their families, friends and passersby in the first rendition of a pro-American chant that any of us have so far heard: “Nam nam Bush , Sad-Dam No” (“Yes, yes, Bush, Saddam No”). They chanted and danced, filling one of their former cells in a spontaneous celebration.
The prison was originally the School for Adult Reeducation, until the authorities converted it after the Shiite uprising against Saddam in 1991 and, perversely renaming it the Jail for Adult Reeducation, used it as a place to punish rebellious Shiites. The white walls outside are covered with blue-painted Baathist and pro-Saddam slogans, but nothing announces that it’s a prison. In the central courtyard, there’s a long-disused basketball hoop, under which are arrays of metal beds for prisoners who were lucky enough to sleep outside. Arrayed around that were groups of classrooms, now cells, which housed so many men that they had to lie down in shifts to sleep. Prisoners whose families had enough money to bribe the authorities at the prison went into Unit One, where they were only occasionally beaten; it cost at least three million Iraqi dinars for that privilege (about $1,000 at the current rate). Unit Two was worse, and so on. In Unit Four, where Adnan lived for his 10-year sentence, the prisoners say they were tortured daily, sometimes thrice daily. Only Unit Five was worse, in a sense. It was where they took them to die.
Adnan says his initial crime was simply stealing some bread, but even that had a political dimension. “The bread was only for the ruling Baathists and the rest of us could go hungry—they didn’t care. We had no choice but to steal.” In prison, though, he was tortured to get him to admit that he was an enemy of the regime. “They wanted me to say I stole the bread because I was against the party.” He wouldn’t admit that, but when they asked him to say. “Long live Saddam,” he refused.
Adnan claims the tortures became daily occurrences, and he and other prisoners practically dragged us visitors through a succession of cells and torture chambers. In one, electrodes hung from the ceiling. He showed how they were placed on either side of his head while the voltage was turned on. On a wall were some hooks, high up. They produced a concrete reinforcing rod that had been bent into a sort of twisted figure eight, so that each loop served as manacles, and the middle was hooked to the wall. One room even had a complete dentist’s chair and drill set, which the prisoners could use for tooth problems if their relatives paid enough—but was more commonly employed solely to inflict pain.
Now, says Adnan to general consent, “I want to kill all Baathists, I want to kill Saddam.” He pulled up his shirt to show the knife wounds and turned around to show the cigarette burn marks. “When we said we were thirsty they brought us out here to drink,” he says, running over to a drainage channel in the middle of the old basketball court, and miming getting down on his knees with his hands tied behind his back and drinking the greenish muck that streamed through.
Unit 4 was reached through an oddly yellow fence with spikes on top, and the mostly windowless cells were filthy and bedless. Perhaps saddest were two rooms, each hardly bigger than a normal bedroom, reserved for children; they had been crammed with scores of kids from 12 to 16 years old, say the former inmates. Ali Nasr, 13 at the time, was caught up in a sweep when Shiites throughout Iraq rioted after the murder of their Grand Ayatollah, Mohammed Sadiq al-Sader (also called Sader II) in Najaf. Sader had been gunned down with his two sons, and Iraqi authorities claimed to have no knowledge of who killed him. Nonetheless, it followed the killings of a series of lesser Shiite leaders in previous years, and the regime’s execution of one of his fellow ayatollahs for his role in the 1991 uprising. Ali spent six months in the juvenile wing of Unit Four, sleeping on his feet when the cell was too crowded to lie down, or taking turns on the floor with other prisoners. The boy was still too scared to talk about it, even now.
Then there was Unit Five, a long corridor where prisoners were hanged or, in many cases, simply left to die of their torture wounds. In the looted rubble of the prison office, the liberated prisoners pulled out ID cards and photographs of men they had known who went to Five. There was Hilal Abbas, whose Ministry of Defense ID card said he was an officer in the Army; he had been heard chanting “Death to Saddam” during the uprising, and was hanged. Abdul Latif Sabhan had already had an eye put out by torture by the time his ID card photo was taken; he died of torture wounds. Fadil Jarallah died similarly, but his case was tragic even by Iraqi standards. He had, they said, looked at a Baathist on the street the wrong way. There were 16 other cards of men identified by the ex-prisoners as having died there. Many others perished as well; how many, they couldn’t say.
Just before British troops entered Basra on Sunday, their guards locked them all in their cells and fled ahead of the advance. Among them was the warden, Jamal al-Tikriti, a member of Saddam’s home tribe. “We’ll find the Baathists,” said Adnan. “And even if they have guns, we’ll tear them to pieces with our teeth.” And with that he led another chant of “Nam Nam Bush, Sad-dam No.” Elsewhere in Basra, buildings were set on fire by looters and some of the unruly crowds were even denouncing the invaders. But for Adnan and his friends, there was no doubt whose side they were on now.
Shaking Off Saddam (http://www.msnbc.com/news/897497.asp?0cv=CA01)
.......oh....... wait.... it's all just coalition propaganda.
NM.
-
Originally posted by NUKE
Yes I know. It's because a state of war existed almost immediatly after the two sides were formed, partly due to the North attempting to destablize the South.
lol
Who would have won the election Nuke?
Or any election that the US had allowed for the 20 years till they left...
Its not a secret. The US state departement knew it and admited it. They described the Election as a trap that they had avoided.
They avoided it by imediatly waging war on the southern vietnamese that would oppose a US friendly despotic goverment.
What ever. Maybe dont try to be the big history teacher on the subject of the Vietnam war. Refuting your misconseptions although fun would hurt the feelings of people here that fought in that war. They dont deserve that.
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Seems to me that, Germany, France and Russia conveniently forgot about certains terms of the cease fire agreement of 1991, with the rest of the world and 16 resolutions later, along with 1441. Why supply weaponry that didn't get used but destroyed along with the monies your countries would never seen anyway.
If you would look at it in proper perspective blitz, That is wherein it lies, Course when you just sit there in your easy chair an keyboard, can't see the writting on the wall, He was a threat to the WORLD if allowed to continue his practices, plus his people will finally be free of an opressor.
If The United States is a conqueror as many believe then Germany would still be under U.S. dominion.