Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fscott on October 21, 2000, 01:38:00 AM
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I'm not one to be cynical and you can check my posts and see that I haven't been critical at all of any of this sims points, but I've seen something that makes me wonder about the C-Hog's flight modelling.
I am flying along direct at a C-HOG at my 12 o'clock low I had a good 2-3k on him. I am flying at AOA of -25 degrees, and my speed indicated very close to 400mph. When we are about 1.2 clicks from each other he begins his incline. He passes below me and I do nothing with the stick, just continue on at roughly 400mph. I pivot my head around to see what he does. Right out of a Star War's clip he does a complete 180, and is on my six at about 1 click. IMMEDIATELY he begins to gain on me rapidly. SO rapidly that I had only enough time to start my split-S and start for the dirt when I hear the thunderous pings hitting my plane. I am dumbfounded.
I am not ignorant to the posts on this board about the debate between the C-hog's flight model, but I can't be quiet now that I have witnessed this phenomenon. I know what someone is going to say: warping, thats the internet. Hm, funny I've never seen this happen when fighting any other birds, and I've never witnessed this specific phenomenon in warpville WB.
I am not taking sides at all on this matter. The title is to catch your attention, and the post is to make my incident known. But I think this is something that HT should look at very closely. It has all but ruined my opinion on the quality of AH's flight models. Now I wonder what else is off.
fscott
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Fscot,
It may not have been AH's FM you were seeing. There have been hackers in the game already. Did you get that guys name?
Mav
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What were you flying? What altitude were you? Are you sure you were going 400? Or close to 400? It sounds like he lead turned you. He may have just come out of a 5k shallow dive, with a full head of steam. Who knows? Theres lots of factors that could go into this.
I just haven't seen F4U's do anything that couldnt be explained, and i've flown this game a lot and for many months.
Heck, I fly 109's and 190's, what people call a 'luftwabble', but I just don't see all these porked planes people scream about, especially the hawg C, maybe the guns are strong, but the FM seems average.
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Maverick, do we have proof that there has been hackers? This is disconcerting. I certainly hope that is an opinion rather than fact. I would much rather see a porked flight model than a hacker.
hblair I know what you are talking about. He was not diving prior to meeting me, in fact he was flying straight and level for quite some time as I was watching him when he was just a little dot. My altitude was around 6k I am guessing he was around 4k. When we passed he was not more than 500 feet below me, after we passed he pulled BACK on his stick while rolling the plane over, hm there's a name for that.
If an F4U1-C could actually do this in battle then I am sure it would have been documented. If someone could advise some pilot stories recounting these amazing maneuvers with the C-Hog I would be interested. The thing is, most books I have all state that the F4UD was the best of the F4 series.
fscott
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Chogs have done this to me on several occasions lately! Ive been dumbfounded but let me tell you I have learned to stear clear of the things by several clicks if I can at all manage.
Also, its not the same fella and thier names are (cough) respected!....foul play is not involved. The damn things reverse like nothing I have ever seen.
Yeager
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The chog pilot that fscott is refering too is NOT a hacker.
newguy
The Wrecking Crew
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I think it's called a lead turn.
Also, how did you manage -25 degrees AOA at 400 mph? That would tear the airframe apart assuming you could get enough elevator travel to reach that AOA. Who's the hacker?
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Fscott,
I've seen and red many times about those things, and usually they are Hogs and Nikis.
Anyway, I think that sometimes in AcesHigh what you see is NOT what you get (ok what we have here is a WYSINWYG interface) due to net-lag, flip turns, lead turns, E-saving flight model and last but not least old hands who know very well how to drive their kites. IMHO, with 1.04 those things happen more often
I dont think he was a cheater, he was only gaming the game, it is absolutely normal. An online flight sim cant be perfect. Live with it. I'm trying to.
Funked,
during pilon races, at what speed do they enter the turn and how fast are they after it?
Regards,
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GATT
4° Stormo Caccia - Knights (http://www.4stormo.it)
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Funked,
1) Two planes merge head on, co-alt at combat power.
2) Both planes blow through the merge.
3) one plane continues straight and level after merge.
4) other plane reverses immediately, gives chase, and quickly closes within guns range.
How does this scenario describe a lead turn?
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This has happened to me several times within the past week and the other plane was always a F4U with cannon and I have always been in P51D.
In the most extreme case I went nose down from 20k and entered semi controlled compression but could not distance myself from the pursuer before cannon strikes vaporized me.
If this is correct then I accept it. I just want someone, anyone to tell me this is an accurate instance of combat between these two plane types.
Yeager
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I've noticed that virtually any aircraft I've tried to dive past and extend from has caught me. Every single one.. no matter what they were flying.
I've found that diving past the enemy is simply a bad maneuver now. Instead, if he is 2k below me... and at a similar speed... I go verticle. That's usually when the person below me realizes that he isn't the only one that knows how to zoom... or how to rope a dope.
AKDejaVu
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Quote:
"I've noticed that virtually any aircraft I've tried to dive past and extend from has caught me. Every single one.. no matter what they were flying."
Really?? Hmmmm......
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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I know where this thread is heading. Lephturn and Verm will come and say "post me numbers and/or film or I won't believe it and so it is BS".
And the thread will go down and eventually will be one forgotten thread more warning that the Hogs are UFOs.
It's not one or two saying this. many people witness F4Us doing the incredible. and we have their (our) stories. I don't press alt-r each time I engage in a ,there is people who do it, but there is a majory who don't. So asking for film is a way to say "I dont believe you".
Oh, yeah only film makes it worth believing as we are a bunch of liers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Yeager, to see how that describes a lead turn, get a copy of "Fighter Combat" by Robert Shaw. There are some nice diagrams therein, and the one on page 76 is what I am talking about. One guy flies straight, the other uses flight path separation and a well timed 180 to get on the other guy's 6. If the turner has enough speed margin before the turn he can still have enough speed after the turn to close range on his target. And of course during the turn, the range can be closing even if the turner is flying at a lower speed. With netlag, the target might see the turner making this move behind him. But on the turner's FE it's a different story.
My take on this whole "problem":
Niklas' tests of sustained turn speed and rate show that the F4U has a heck of a lot of induced drag at low speeds.
Wells' tests of AH F4U energy retention show it is nothing special compared to the other AH planes, and its performance matches closely what his own physics calculations predict.
I have been doing my own offline tests of 3g zooms from 400 mph at sea level, and the F4U-1C results are, again, nothing special compared to the other planes.
I think this "problem" is one of four things:
1. Hackers
2. An error in the FM in some regime that Wells and others have not been able to cover in testing.
3. Net lag.
4. People are simply getting beat by better pilots, and instead of working on their own ACM skills and knowledge, they take the easy route and try to blame the software.
I suspect it is #3 and #4 in combination, but it could be #1 or #2. It's going to take some film of these supposed UFO maneuvers to narrow the choices down.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Film every engagement. I have a hot key set up so when I hit wep on, film goes on too.
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I amazed Whels the other night in a situation not unlike the one described above. We both approached each other at speed in shallow dives - I put my nose down further to open flight path seperation for a vertical leadturn and pulled up pretty early.
Result - I was about 1k on his 6, but found myself gradually overhauling his aircraft, and subsequently caught him.
Whels is an experienced pilot I remember and respect from AW, and couldn't believe how I had done this.
Only 2 explainations from what I can see :
1) There is some kind of FM quirk that allowed this to happen.
2) Although we were both fast, I was simply faster. I don't know for sure what my speed was, but it must have been 400 or thereabouts when I started to pullup.
I don't want to believe option 1; although I can't rule it out, I think option 2 must be much more likely. Needless to say, I don't have film, Whels if you are reading this do you? I'd be fascinated to see it as I must admit I did not really expect to close on you straight away. Ultimately without film proof of something screwy however, I'm going to give HTC the benefit of the doubt.
One other point: Whels was flying an F4U. I was in a P51.
Vladd
56Sqd 'Firebirds'
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This is what I was talking about yesterday. Me in a P-38, two guys in F4u-1C's. Same thing, same ending. No lead turn.
-Westy
*not waiving a hack flag. just raising my hand in solidarity to say something feels wrong to me. And I very very rarely, if ever, mention suspicions on any aircrafts FM, anywhere - well, except FA (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Film every engagement. I have a hot key set up so when I hit wep on, film goes on too.
I have a hot key setup so when I hit wep it......oops, wrong forum, sorry guys. (Geez you'd think I would learn to look at the banners by now, yikes).
Cobra
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So i have had p51s and tyhpi's do the same thing. just because he is lower doesnt mean
he has less E then u.
ive killed many a pilot in AW with the dive to lower with speed before vis, and they
think im lower n slower and boom they ded.
whels
Originally posted by fscott:
I'm not one to be cynical and you can check my posts and see that I haven't been critical at all of any of this sims points, but I've seen something that makes me wonder about the C-Hog's flight modelling.
I am flying along direct at a C-HOG at my 12 o'clock low I had a good 2-3k on him. I am flying at AOA of -25 degrees, and my speed indicated very close to 400mph. When we are about 1.2 clicks from each other he begins his incline. He passes below me and I do nothing with the stick, just continue on at roughly 400mph. I pivot my head around to see what he does. Right out of a Star War's clip he does a complete 180, and is on my six at about 1 click. IMMEDIATELY he begins to gain on me rapidly. SO rapidly that I had only enough time to start my split-S and start for the dirt when I hear the thunderous pings hitting my plane. I am dumbfounded.
I am not ignorant to the posts on this board about the debate between the C-hog's flight model, but I can't be quiet now that I have witnessed this phenomenon. I know what someone is going to say: warping, thats the internet. Hm, funny I've never seen this happen when fighting any other birds, and I've never witnessed this specific phenomenon in warpville WB.
I am not taking sides at all on this matter. The title is to catch your attention, and the post is to make my incident known. But I think this is something that HT should look at very closely. It has all but ruined my opinion on the quality of AH's flight models. Now I wonder what else is off.
fscott
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A point to consider.....
We, VMF 323, have been noticeing something peculiar. One of our squaddies, Rangrbob, is ALWAYS slower than the rest of us. When we fly in formation, as we normally do, we constantly pull away from him or fly right past him. Yes, same this same that. His system is faster than mine with more ram, better video, etc.
Its really weird. This happens ALL the time. No warps, nothing. He is simply slower.
Could this be happening to others, therefore, that is why enemy closure speed seems impossible? Could this be affecting what you see, which is actually a simple lead turn? My brother, Comanche, uses the lead turn all the time and sometimes it looks (from my FE) impossible that he is able to make that shot. I know he is not a hacker. I am the computer guy (professionally) of the family. He calls me to fix the problems (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Just a thought.
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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i remember on the other A sim, a post where 1 of the head guys said that, connection can have an effect on plane preformance vs another pilot and his/her con.
ie.. both in same plane, but the 1 with
a better con gets updated more often
therefor seem to be faster even though
in same plane and same situation.
whels
Originally posted by Apache:
A point to consider.....
We, VMF 323, have been noticeing something peculiar. One of our squaddies, Rangrbob, is ALWAYS slower than the rest of us. When we fly in formation, as we normally do, we constantly pull away from him or fly right past him. Yes, same this same that. His system is faster than mine with more ram, better video, etc.
Its really weird. This happens ALL the time. No warps, nothing. He is simply slower.
Could this be happening to others, therefore, that is why enemy closure speed seems impossible? Could this be affecting what you see, which is actually a simple lead turn? My brother, Comanche, uses the lead turn all the time and sometimes it looks (from my FE) impossible that he is able to make that shot. I know he is not a hacker. I am the computer guy (professionally) of the family. He calls me to fix the problems (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Just a thought.
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Well i didn't believe any of these whines until it happened to me last night.
Flying the 109 g6 coming out of a shallow dive going 400 mph, i spot a niki 500 feet below me and 800 yards out..
I pull up to the level and plan to just blast right by, this sucker went verticle nosed over and got on my 6 at d 500.
Ok thats plausible.. net lag and all he coulda pulled up and over early to get on my 6 .. no big deal.
so i do some minor rolls and weaves, just enuf so he can't get guns....
I SHOULD HAVE out ran him, HE DID just do a imellean, BUT NO.. this sucker gained on me FAST and opened up all the way from his initial d500 to d350.
I was 109 g6 doing 400 mph... that niki has to strain to get to 400 mph...
Thats my life.. wish i had film.
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WarChild
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
"Where's the Charmin!"
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Look guys, Im not sure what going on. Im afraid Im just not in a position to make an educated judgement on "why" something happens regarding any particular FM performance.
I just tell you what Ive seen and hope that guys like Funked and Wells can look into it and figure out if something is amiss.
Apparently though, nothing is wrong.
Yeager
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Yeager:
Just try to be diligent about filming stuff. If you capture something "interesting" on film then it will be much easier for Wells etc.. to analyze what actually happened.
Hooligan
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Originally posted by funked:
People are simply getting beat by better pilots, and instead of working on their own ACM skills and knowledge, they take the easy route and try to blame the software.
Preach on, brother funked, I think you're kind of like I am in the respect that it takes something very weird before I'm going to say anything, and thats only on my roger wilco channel. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I remember about 1 1/2 years ago on WB's I started a thread on AGW about what was then considered the 'uber' plane from WB's, the spit 9. I was flying along in the Historical Arena in a 109g at 20k, or so.
I met a spitfire that approached from my slightly low 12 o'clock. I stayed straight and watched him do a turn around on me, and gain and kill me. It sounds like the exact same circumstance fscott is talking about here. I was abso-damn-lutely sure that I was right, then people like -rfa- and others explained that the guy simply had more energy than me, and that he had apparently lead turned me. This mad me crazy, they didn't see what I saw!. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I shouldn't have posted that thread, as it just fed the old "FM is porked" witch hunt that was brewing at thhe time. I'm not saying that fscott shouldn't have posted this thread, or that he is wrong.
I'm just saying that it sounds like a lead turn performed by a skilled pilot and a plane that had a full head of steam going, plain and simple.
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Whels, it was nose to nose merge, I had 3K alt, blasted by them at 450+mph, they reversed and caught me. I did not turn back. I did not bleed much if any E, yet they should have.
Funked... Better pilots? I'll be the first to salute anyone who shoots me down. As for what happened the other day, I can't even remember the name of the guy who shot me down but I've never saw him before (which is not an indication of good skill or bad I know!)
Nose-nose merge. Not a lead turn, they reversed 2K plus after I've passed by and yet they catch up in level flight and, well with the C guns, you know the rest.
And I know about all about the effects of net lag and net burps.
All I can do is second Yeagers last remarks. And also, in this instance it was a case of "it takes something very weird" that lead me to remark about what I've seen. I'm a card carrying AH cheerleader -if there had ever been any doubt.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Hi
109 G10 and SpitIX merge coalt and CoE at about 6k. At the merge neither of us has dived or climbed, we were even througut the merge. Just after we pass he pulls a hard reverse, just like an immelman, but much tighter and and more like a tight break turn in the vertical. I look back the distance is 900, then 850, then 800, then 700 then I get shot. All did was pull a gentle zoom climb, and he pulled this 180degree hard turn and he caught me the outaccelerated a G10 after he pulled a tight turn. I dont think its a hacker I do think its a FM problem. Second example take a N1K2 and shut its engine off. Start pulling 3 or 4 tight turns and watch the speedo. The damn thing will keep its speed with no power and might even register some acceleration. Also there is something very artifical in its reluctance to drop below about 200mph, Its often very frustrating on landings as the damn speed just dont want to drop below 200 no matter how much you wiggle or even cut power. Basically the problem here seems to be that planes carry way too much E and speed through the manouvers. This is also why we see more of the lunatic style evasive manouvers like stalling out and spinning to avoid a gun pass, cuz we can now recover almost instantly and still have E to climb or turn, or to evade another pass.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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One point not mentioned, is that I have never witnessed this in WB. I *have* seen a plane that was 5 clicks out then suddenly sweeps to 15 clicks in a split second, I understand that is net lag, and happens quit often in WB but rarely in AH, that is a good thing. But I have never witnessed the phenomenon where a slower plane actually catches up with me.
Perhaps it does have to do with connection speed and quality, and perhaps AH just has a finer internet routine which capitilizes on better connections. Obviously AH does have a little better routine since warps are rare copmpared to WB. Personally though, I would rather see warps than this strange phenomenon of massive E retention.
Additionally, I have of course battled with numerous C-Hogs and have never witnessed this until the other night. SO either the pilot knew how utilize a bug in the C-Hogs FM or it was an internet connection phenomenon.
Regardless, if it was internet related I wonder I haven't seen this in WB for the last 2 years that I've flown on and off.
fscott
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well aslo hate the UFo planes, but discovered something interesant , it begin in WB times when we fly a big scenario like a buffs all go level full trotle same cap first 10 minit i have solid conect but after beginin have lot of yelow beacon next 5 minit i the red yelow gren no disco the
other 20 buf still behind me up to 5k when my beacon become stable gren
in AH just check the netstatus!!!!
sometime with squadis or other enemy or frendly planes and netstatus sho Ok and now coming the UFo plane all the frendly no warp nobady see a warp but UFo begin pull a incredible manovers fast and deadly u finish on bail or dead jsut check after the NEt staus your netstaus have a MEGA EXTREME piles nobady confirm warps
DESINCHRONIZATION from host ????? o a new trick ,or a UDp vs CTP player ????????
the Host sometime show a bunch of nonsens i em prety sure
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GRUNHERZ, I agree. Perhaps E-retention is overdone. This would explain why planes can do 180 turns and then catch up to others.
It is amzazing how long you can glide at 200 feet off the ground in any plane with your engine cut off. Does anyone else find this strange? Perhaps we shoudl film this and then let people see this.
fscott
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I've got film of my F4U-1D in a simulated carrier landing (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/film4.zip). It's nothing special, just film from takeoff to landing. Dload and watch it. I've got no problems bleeding E; the reason is the landing gear. Note my speed up until I dump the gear. Power off with any aircraft and there's hardly any drag even while level. Dump one notch of flaps, or your gear, and watch your speed run away like Pyro did when he saw Ripsnort without his make-up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Any radial engine is basically a big bucket and a huge source of drag with no power. Amazing how the Niki can glide forever with a 55 gallon drum welded to the front end. I think it's just not enough power-off drag on the airframes. With power on the aircraft should remain more or less the same, but with no power they should lose speed just a tad faster.
As for UFO-like behavior, I'll keep an eye out and film anything funny I spot in H2H.
[helps if I add the dload link, don't it]
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000
[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Yes Funked,
I will try to go hunting with film on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The only other things I can say is that what I have seen recently has been very, very, VERY odd!
Thats why I am posting the things I have been lately. I am not a bandwagon jumper or a whining squeak. I have seen something very strange lately with the F4U and it is disturbing me.
AND ANOTHER THING. I just got out of a med league thing flying 38s. All I can say is I wish the compression was modeled in a more dynamic manner. I Spent so much time watching my speed and recovering out of cunning sneaky compressions I could hardly fight 190s or 109s with this plane. I finally went nose down on a 109 and immediately went into a stiff compression I could not get out of. Again, E retention is way overdone or drag is way underdone
me-thinks
FWIW, Dale did a superb job with compression and drag in WBs but it isnt happening here in AH, yet.
Yeager
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this is what my stats look like for the f4u-c vs my 51
7 kills and has been killed 3 times tour 9.
15 kills and has been killed 7 times tour 8.
10 kills and has been killed 3 times tour 7.
4 kills and has been killed 3 times tour 6.
9 kills and has been killed 8 times tour 5.
10 kills and has been killed 6 times tour 4.
quote from RAM
I know where this thread is heading. Lephturn and Verm will come and say "post me numbers and/or film or I won't believe it and so it is BS".
i have the films both of them(mine and suaves). not for the F4U but for the niki vs spit9. i talked to Robert Shaw at the AH CON at dinner about these very films. He was very interested in seeing them as well. So i let him see then ....he had no explanation for it. course these are for the niki not the F4U-C.
http://rwy0.tripod.com/AHcon2000/films.zip (http://rwy0.tripod.com/AHcon2000/films.zip)
quote from Apache
Rangrbob, is ALWAYS slower than the rest of us.
i dumped the CH analog js for the saitek x36 combo.
my 51 accels to top speed almost 5 seconds faster with this js
than it did with the ch stuff. this is mainly to js spikes i think.
Lephturn and Verm i want you to look at these films and tell me
what you think.
RWY out !
P.S. films for the f4u comming soon.
>
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Two words: "Get" "Film"
I have learned my lesson on related subjects a few times and have always lost.
In the mean time, never offer a straight H2H against any plane if you intend to blow through. No matter what the initial conditions you percieve are present. The other player or the FE will often fool you.
I try to offset laterally prior to the merge and possibly slightly below. Then I turn up and into the bandit at merge and extend straight away from his six.
This allows me to:
- Avoild any potetial HO
- Detect a lead turn by the bandit
- Extend aft of his 3-9 line with alot of smash
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble
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He might wanna check his throttle to make sure he's getting full power. It might not be going all the way forward. If that's not it, what kind of CPU does he have? AMD or Intel? What does the rest of the squad have?
-SW
Originally posted by Apache:
A point to consider.....
We, VMF 323, have been noticeing something peculiar. One of our squaddies, Rangrbob, is ALWAYS slower than the rest of us. When we fly in formation, as we normally do, we constantly pull away from him or fly right past him. Yes, same this same that. His system is faster than mine with more ram, better video, etc.
Its really weird. This happens ALL the time. No warps, nothing. He is simply slower.
Could this be happening to others, therefore, that is why enemy closure speed seems impossible? Could this be affecting what you see, which is actually a simple lead turn? My brother, Comanche, uses the lead turn all the time and sometimes it looks (from my FE) impossible that he is able to make that shot. I know he is not a hacker. I am the computer guy (professionally) of the family. He calls me to fix the problems (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Just a thought.
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Robert,
Are you saying there was something wrong in the films?
I saw the Nik dive to gain speed, pull up into an immelman at over 300, coming over the top he was about 200 with you about 1k away. He then dove to gain speed was about 300 again when you went straight up, about 1k away. He followed you up, and when he shot you he was struggling to keep his nose up at about 50 mph, ready to stall...with you about D400-500. It was nice flying on the edge and shooting on his part..I didn't see anything "uber".
People are saying these guys are gaining on you after they turn hard and you fly level not losing any e..I don't think this qualifies as an example of that.
bowser
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Grunherz, read Hblair's post. That's a lead turn buddy.
N1K2 accelerating with the engine shut off, or maintaining speed in hard turns? Sorry, not possible. You must have dived slightly.
<S>
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Mino that's great advice you give.
Basically against a lead turn you want to turn into the bandit's turn. I.e. if he is turning left, you turn left slightly. This reduces flight path separation and increases the degrees he has to turn through, which makes him bleed more speed. He's only going to be able to catch you if he has a lot more speed initially.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Yeager:
"Again, E retention is way overdone or drag is way underdone
me-thinks"
Well the only measures I have seen are Niklas's sustained turn rates which match NII-VVS results closely, and Wells' altitude loss in 4g turn results which match his own theoretical predictions nicely. If anything Wells' results show that E retention in AH is underdone, not overdone.
Nobody AFAIK has done any tests of transonic drag, i.e. drag at speeds where compressibility becomes a factor. I don't have any real flight test data to compare to, nor do I have the aerodynamic knowledge to make theoretical predictions of performance in this regime. That's what I was talking about in #2 of my list above.
PS Were you using dive flaps in your P-38? Your problems in that plane sound a lot like what pilots of pre-dive flap P-38's described.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Well Ill leave it alone then. Saw something that struck me like a bolt of lightening so of course I was jizzed. Saw it several more times and became concerned.
About the 38, I was with a dozen other 38s over malta and it was funny. Everyone was saying "dont compress, dont compress" so what we had was a bunch of 38s at 20k+ flying circles over a bunch of 109s at 15-18k, no one was diving down. I suppose thats a pretty accurate reflection of theater combat in ww2 hehe.......
I think I was 75% fuel full, clean airfoil and started to compress about 5 degrees nose down at around 20k. Managed to pull out of it ok then hit the dive flaps with throttle on idle, slowed down some then nosed around and under thinking I was safe to get on a 109 about 2k below and 3k in front flying a straight course away from me. I immediately went into a compression with idle throttle and could not get out of it. Just laughed as I bailed out. Thats the way its been for me recently.
I dont know. This past few weeks has been the worst for me in AH. Either I suck more now than I ever have (very possible!), or the product is showing some dynamic flaws as a result of natural maturity...mebbe both. I just dont know. I have enough time on stick where this shouldnt be happening to me but it is.
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Hey I could be wrong...
<S> Everybody on this thread. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I dislike you.
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Hi
Funked that wasnt no lead turn. There was no real vertical or horizontal seperation, and he only pulled around well after we passed. The thing is he kept more E and more speed in his hard tight vertical turn than the G10 did in a gentle climb.
thanks GRUNHERZ
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Watched the film. looked like that spit suicided to me. Pulled up right in front of 4 20 mm,s with unlimited ammo, Duh.
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I gotta agree with Westy and grunherz, and those two are both quite good sticks.
I've had 420mph's merges where I've dived on a lower con, head to head, avoided the HO only to see 'im do an immelman, come over the top, dive down on me and get to within gun range.
Also the "slower plane syndrome" is very much there - yesterday, shamus asked me "are you on wep?" Started out close and at same speed, I quickly pulled away. It happens with JG54 too. Kinda cool in a way, since this models aircrafts having a bad day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Originally posted by bowser:
Robert,
Are you saying there was something wrong in the films?
I saw the Nik dive to gain speed, pull up into an immelman at over 300, coming over the top he was about 200 with you about 1k away. He then dove to gain speed was about 300 again when you went straight up, about 1k away. He followed you up, and when he shot you he was struggling to keep his nose up at about 50 mph, ready to stall...with you about D400-500. It was nice flying on the edge and shooting on his part..I didn't see anything "uber".
People are saying these guys are gaining on you after they turn hard and you fly level not losing any e..I don't think this qualifies as an example of that.
bowser
im saying he made a 5g reversal 500 ft below me with little or no lead and followed my 1.5g zoom clinb with both planes at very close to almost equal e-state except for two things. he had 500 ft less alt and a 5g 180 degree turn. which is very obvious if he had been at the same alt as i he would have been 500d closer when he shot me which means he lost no e what so ever in a 180 degree 5 + g turn .
RWY
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Robert,
If I understand you, you're basically saying he pulled a high g reverse and lost no E. You might be confusing E with speed. He lost speed on the immelman, going from about 300 to 200 over the top..but his E was fairly constant as he traded speed for alt and back again. After the immelman he was able to trade that alt back for speed as he dove slightly. Basically you zoomed without enough distance between the two of you. When you started your zoom, you were only about 1K ahead of him...and the angle of climb was probably different for each also.
bowser