Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: blitz on April 06, 2003, 05:18:11 PM
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Seriously, i met some of them and found them to be friendly and nice.
Same goes for most foreign people i met in my life, wheter in my own country or abroad.
One thing i learnt is: Try to distinguish between the people and their government.
Regards Blitz
btw Some of my great heroes are these soldiers of the communist russian army , who were excecuted after they refused to shoot at unarmed german workers who was uprising on 17 june 1953 at 'Stalin Allee' in East-Berlin. Was more than hundred to die of them. to them who gave their life for humanity :)
to all deserters of this world
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Originally posted by Blitz
to all deserters of this world
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Originally posted by blitz
to all deserters of this world
Yea war solves nothing!!!
You know I really wish all those figting against Hitler deserted. Yea I do, you know why blitz? Sooner or later he would have gotten to your parents or grandparents, and then it would all have been worth it.
You are truly one of the most idiotic brain damaged individuals who I have ever come accross in my life.
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Consider the flipside if everyone in Hitler's army deserted.
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i think what blitz said was he likes russian deserters, he being german , i can understand his feelings.
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Funny - I know an aweful lot of Russians. Ive found every one of them to be self centered, rude, abnoxious, and stinky.
An American, a German, and a Russian are in a restaurant.
The waitress comes by and asks the American what he would like to eat. He orders a Porterhouse, medium rare, and a bottle of Becks lager.
The waitress scouls and informs the American than the latest beef shippment was contaminated, and they are all out of Becks.
He asks what they do have and she replys "Since we have no more Becks or beef, you'll have to settle for a Caeser Salad and a Coors Light."
The American responds: "Whats a 'Salad'?"
The German responds: "Vat's ah 'Coors'?"
The Russian responds: "What's a 'No'?"
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Consider the flipside if everyone in Hitler's army deserted.
What if your local police deserted?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Consider the flipside if everyone in Hitler's army deserted.
Were 10 thousands of them, most get caught and hanged.
And Germany still has no memorial for them ! Shame! :(
Regards Blitz
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What if your local police deserted?
Desertion doesn't apply to police in this country.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Desertion doesn't apply to police in this country.
The general concept does, what if one day all the police simply stopped doing their jobs and went home - and I mean all of them. Tell me what would happend to the crime rate in a very short time.
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It's not a good analogy, IMHO. The police are essentially volunteers. They are not conscripts. They are free to leave when they choose.
Not that it matters, but in response to your second point, I expect that the change in crime rate wouldn't be nearly as dramatic as you think.
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American soldiers are volunteers....
So you are saying that crime would not dramatically rise if there were no police whatsover. Telll me what would then stop me from going to somebodys house, killing them and taking their expensive belongings.
Remember there are no police, no offial way to arrest me or dtain me for trial in fact there are no more trials no more laws as they are unenforcable.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
American soldiers are volunteers....
So you are saying that crime would not dramatically rise if there were no police whatsover. Telll me what would then stop me from going to somebodys house, killing them and taking their expensive belongings.
Remember there are no police, no offial way to arrest me or dtain me for trial in fact there are no more trials no more laws as they are unenforcable.
American soldiers are indeed volunteers, but desertion in the time of war is still an executable offense according to the UCMJ. The police are not subject to anything similar to the UCMJ.
What would stop you from committing a crime? How about your own morals and values?
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Answer the question Grun, what would've happened if all Hitler's armies had deserted?
You know you want to. But (gnnnhhhhh) you can't.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
What would stop you from committing a crime? How about your own morals and values?
Nope, nice and idealistic but we both know that wouldnt work. If it did we would never need police or laws throughout human history. And what of the people with questinable morals and values? What if somebody was raised with morals and values that inclded theft, rape and murder? I'm actually very dissapointed with your naive childish response - hell I really thought you woyld come up with something more substantial.
Bounder if all of hitlers armies desterted then the war would end. Yea!!!! But thats about as useful and intelligent as saying that if all the bad people in the world would just stop being bad that all the problems would end. Its simply a nonsensical unrealistic proposition - you will never get 100% of people to agree to everything or anything.
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Grun, you asked what would stop you. Evidently, you need laws and courts.
My morals and values are sufficiently developed that I could be a good citizen even in the absence of law enforcement. I'm also smart enough to live near people that share these same values.
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Well I was saying what would stop any one of many millions of people from acting in any way they saw fit.
Let me put it this way then. Lets say some person with poor morals and values and a car drove into your nice neighborhood, broke into your home, killed your family, and stole some money - you were away at the time but have an idea who it was. What would you do? Remember there are no police, there is nobody to call to hold that person accountable. Plus there is nobody to enforce any sort of law and there are no more prisons.
This person just killed your familiy, what do you do? What do your superior morals and values tell you to do now?
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Let's see... I don't know who it is. There's no one to report to... I have the solution.
I'll invade Iraq. :D
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Answer the question!
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Can you make it multiple choice? :D
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rofl
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Ill let your deflections and avoidance stand for what they are...
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amusing methods to get you riled Grun.
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Refusal to come up with a meaningful answer to a ridiculous question?
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Your propsition that crime would not see a significant increase if there was no police law enforcement is ridiculous...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Your propsition that crime would not see a significant increase if there was no police law enforcement is ridiculous...
Hmmm... not what I said so I'll quote again:
I expect that the change in crime rate wouldn't be nearly as dramatic as you think.
I truly believe that the people that would become criminal in the absence of law enforcement already are criminals. I believe that most people truly are good and wouldn't turn to crime simply because there are no police. At the same time, I also believe that police do decrease the amount of criminal activity.
Make sense?
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GRUNHERZ: Let me put it this way then. Lets say some person with poor morals and values and a car drove into your nice neighborhood, broke into your home, killed your family, and stole some money... Remember there are no police, there is nobody to call to hold that person accountable. Plus there is nobody to enforce any sort of law and there are no more prisons.
Let me answer the question.
That's an idiotic scenatrio - prodcing completely unrealistic conclusions from a simple premise. Police not only keeps very few people from commiting crimes, it also dissuades, distracts resources and actively prevents people from protecting themselves. Why don't you factor in dissapeareance of those restrictions as well?
If there were no state police, I can assure you anyone would not have been able to to drive into my nice neighbourhood nearly as easy as he can now with all the police in presence.
There would have been an electrified wire, signal mines, cameras, motion sensors and a roadblock with a concrete bunker manned by a couple of machinegunners plus patrols and rapid reaction force. Oh, yes - and a row of skulls on a pikeheads. Nobody would ever come in if he were not expected. There would have been no crime, no violence in my nice neighbourhood exactly because people would not rely on police - that generally does a lousy job - catching criminals only after the act and not that often - and there would not be a police to keep us disarmed.
And guess what? It would be much cheaper for me that way - paying for my own weapons, security and private enforcement and participating in my guard duty. Right now the taxes I pay for police are mostly spend in the neighbourhoods other than mine. I would care as little if they kill each other as if they lived in another country - less, actually, since people in the other country are receiving less of my welfare, not voting against me and are not likely to come to my neighbourhood. So you have a quadruple savings here right away.
The more I think about your "no-police scenario", the more I like it!
miko
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Fair enough.
But, the question I was posing to you was how would "good" people react to those who commit crimes against them if there was no police?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Fair enough.
But, the question I was posing to you was how would "good" people react to those who commit crimes against them if there was no police?
It would go back to "eye for an eye"
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Consider the flipside if everyone in Hitler's army deserted.
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This is precisely what I dislike about american liberalism/leftism.
While we sit around and consider the flipside, some bad people are doing some really bad things to plain decent people.
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Hmmm... I think you missed the point. It was a logical counter to Grun's what if the allies deserted argument.
Both are silly.
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Originally posted by miko2d
The more I think about your "no-police scenario", the more I like it!
miko
Me too, I'd box your bellybutton up and ship it back to Russia.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Me too, I'd box your bellybutton up and ship it back to Russia.
LOL!
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Miko the fact that you think it would be more efficient if everyone was to buy their own personal army and minefields and electric fences and all that really makkes me question your understanding of markets and economics...
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GRUNHERZ: But, the question I was posing to you was how would "good" people react to those who commit crimes against them if there was no police?
OK, maybe I misunderstood. Obviously they would come up with some equivalent or different ways to combat crime that are compatible with their culture - morality, traditions, etc.
Not necessarily all those measures would be reactive to crime.
GRUNHERZ: Miko the fact that you think it would be more efficient if everyone was to buy their own personal army and minefields and electric fences and all that really makes me question your understanding of markets and economics...
Grun, the fact that you cannot recognise an answer to a specific question you've posted yourself makes me question if you take your own arguments seriously.
Here is your quote "drove into your nice neighborhood, broke into your home, killed your family, and stole some money".
I did not answer about "everyone". Neither did you ask about that "everyone" in your original scenario.
So yes, for people like me who live in nice neighbourhoods, own houses with piles of money in them - and quite a lot of understanding of markets and economics - it would be more efficient to buy our own personal army - and/or form a self protection group. Same is true for quite a lot of less affluent people who get the benefit of more efficiency inherent to private company closely watched by owners and customers and operating in a competitive environment - compared to a government bureaucracy. Some would be losers, of course. So?
NUKE: Martlet: Me too, I'd box your bellybutton up and ship it back to Russia.
:) Who would pay for your welfare?
miko
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Miko Miko Miko, tell me will all these walled off fiefdoms with private armies and minefields help the economy and trade?
What about the lawless areas in between these fortified areas, will all cargo be transported in armed convoys protected by APCs?
If everyone must maintain their own security forces, how many more able working age people will be drawn off from other possibly more productive or faster growing sectors of the economy?
Its just such a bad idea...
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Russians are OK if you remember how to handle them..
They're quite much like gypsies.. they'll steal everything that's not anchored to the wall with a steel chain.
I know places where people leave thier worn out old tyres on a visible place on purpose.. In stead of having to carry them to the dumpster and pay the trash fee's, leaving them on the open enables russians to steal them and carry the **** to russia.
The tyres never last longer than a week in place. :)
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as long as they're not commies, I don't mind them.
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Originally posted by blitz
Were 10 thousands of them, most get caught and hanged.
And Germany still has no memorial for them ! Shame! :(
Regards Blitz
Germany doesnt have any memorial over all their rapists, pedophiles and murderers either...imagine that huh.
Maybe that is because deserters, pedophiles, rapists and whathaveyou are the scum of the earth and no one really wants them to have any monuments except for some f*cked up pacifist idiots.
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Okay, I've been around the world a bit. Not as much as some, no doubt, but a bit.
The United States is the only country I've seen where a significant portion of the citizens genuinely identify itself with the government's policy.
For me, what being american means is trying to explain this to foreigners. Heck, this is an equivocal notion. On the one hand, this means that in the US, government bureaucracies, whether we're talking the US Military or social services, actually work. On the other hand, we've got a self-sustaining two-party system that takes advantage of this. (Insert your republican or democratic-party rhetoric here, as interpreted by the other party). The good side is that as a people, we truly believe in what we do; the bad side is that as a country, there are always people eager to take advantage of our nai:vete'.
The ethical solution to this is ugly: either, as a people, we follow the route of those countries that have endured a dictatorship and dissociate ourselves from the country, and thus lose our authority and participation in the government (as has happened in most totalitarian regimes), or we exercise our second-amendment rights and kinetically question the system of government our forefathers have shed blood for (which few have the testes to do), or we shut up and toe the line (as they do in Iraq), or we buy into the rhetoric (which we'd really like to do).
As a choice, it really sucks.
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blitz
Were 10 thousands of them, most get caught and hanged.
And Germany still has no memorial for them ! Shame!
Regards Blitz
Originally posted by Hortlund
Germany doesnt have any memorial over all their rapists, pedophiles and murderers either...imagine that huh.
Maybe that is because deserters, pedophiles, rapists and whathaveyou are the scum of the earth and no one really wants them to have any monuments except for some f*cked up pacifist idiots.
Why do you think it is bad that young german men decided that they don't support an horrible system any longer?
Saved many lives of allied soldiers.
Regards Blitz
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Originally posted by blitz
Why do you think it is bad that young german men decided that they don't support an horrible system any longer?
Saved many lives of allied soldiers.
Ok, excuse my crappy german, but I think this quote sums it up rather nicely.
Der feind liebt den verrat aber verrachtet den verräder.
A deserter is a deserter, no matter what side he is deserting.
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I know people from almost all parts of the world including russia and they are all nice people.
You can't decide where you are born only how you behave.
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I like you Hortland... but not in a Dowding sort of way. :D
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GRUNHERZ: If everyone must maintain their own security forces, how many more able working age people will be drawn off from other possibly more productive or faster growing sectors of the economy?
Except for some regulative nuances, why do you think it would be much different from the current police that is organised by municipalities? In fact, what will prevent the municipalities in a free society from keeping the same arrangement of police - having them as public servants rather than contractors while others use contractors instead of public servants?
Its just such a bad idea...
If your idea - of police regulated from the highest level possible - state, federal, UN/world government, maybe? - is so great, how come you demand such unanimity in accepting it? Certainly it would prove its worth in honest competition? Only if you do not believe it's any good and nobody would go for it if they had the choice, would you demand legal protection to state monopoly on security.
Just like with school vouchers - if people were given a choice, they would abandon government schools, so they must not be allowed to choose.
It's all the same - if some service can be provided in a competitive free-market environment, is there any reason for the government providing it - or preventing others from providing it alongside the government?
miko
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I like you Hortland... but not in a Dowding sort of way. :D
hehe poor dowding, he should have stayed in that closet.