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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: FTJR on April 06, 2003, 11:08:06 PM

Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: FTJR on April 06, 2003, 11:08:06 PM
Does anyone have any idea on how to do this? I've  got the ones published by Badz, but those are limited to a certain few aeroplanes.

I'd like to create some myself. I've done a web  search but I guess that its not a popular pass time.

Thanks
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: wetrat on April 07, 2003, 05:12:20 PM
No idea what you mean.
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: FLS on April 07, 2003, 05:54:48 PM
Andy Bush posted the following at Sim.hq.

Making your own EM digrams is not easy.

Begin by choosing an altitude, configuration, and gross weight.

Then follow these steps. Do all flight testing from a level turn.

1. Determine corner velocity by finding the slowest speed that you can pull the charted max G. This will determine the top point on the EM chart.

2. The right side of the chart is determined by the max indicated speed of the aircraft. This is usually a flight manual number.

3. Determine the left side of the chart (the stall line) by finding the minimum speed for a given G load. Plot these points to get your left side curve.

4. The top line is your max G line and is mathematically computed by using a given G value versus selected indicated speeds. Use true airspeed in the calculation.

5. Then determine the speed at which you can sustain the most G. This will be something less than corner velocity and the G will be less than max G.

This should give you the outlines of the diagram.



--)-FLS-----
Musketeers
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Blue Mako on April 07, 2003, 09:22:01 PM
JR, get in touch with Tango and he'll give you the low down.
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Batz on April 07, 2003, 09:35:37 PM
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/energymgmt/

But you need to test the each aircraft to get then numbers you need for the the charts.
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: FTJR on April 08, 2003, 04:28:09 AM
Thanks for the links and all.

Hey Blue.. check your email mate.

Ta.


:p
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Tyro48 on April 12, 2003, 06:09:06 AM
let g= 32.2 x #of g's u pull

let RsubT= turn radius
RsubT= V^2/g x tan (b) where b=bank angle

turn rate= 180 x g ( tan (b))/pi v
v= TAS x 5280/3600 to give speed in ft/sec

relationships are for constant alt level turns
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: FTJR on April 12, 2003, 02:04:00 PM
err RsubT? :confused:

but I got the rest thanks;)
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Maniacal81st on April 12, 2003, 02:14:14 PM


 No shame in admitting this one.

  Wow, I tried to follow the article and some of the diagrams.  Looks very foreign to me.  Is this something that is understandable with repetitive reading, or a concept that requires some other flight knowledge.  Only flown AH for flight sims, never piloted a real aircraft.

 <>

  Major MaNiaCaL
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Tyro48 on April 13, 2003, 02:12:53 AM
Just a way of seperating the two terms since they both use R and T, on is turn rate in degs/sec the other is turn radius.
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: FTJR on April 13, 2003, 03:09:46 AM
rgr.. got it thanks. now when I have a spare moment I'll use it.

Manical. continuous repititive head bashing against a brick wall works for me :D
Title: Re: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Badboy on April 13, 2003, 09:46:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by FTJR
Does anyone have any idea on how to do this? I've  got the ones published by Badz, but those are limited to a certain few aeroplanes.

I'd like to create some myself. I've done a web  search but I guess that its not a popular pass time.

Thanks


Hi FTJR,

Let me know what aircraft you are interested in? I may have done the EM analysis for it already, if so I can post it here.

Also I dropped the "Badz" cpid and persona when AW died :)

Badboy
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: 1Duke1 on April 13, 2003, 01:15:13 PM
Badboy,

I'd be interested in whatever EM diagrams you have.  Can you post a list?:)

Thanks
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Badboy on April 13, 2003, 02:38:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 1Duke1
Badboy,

I'd be interested in whatever EM diagrams you have.  Can you post a list?:)

Thanks


Almost all of the EM diagrams I've done so far, have been posted on these boards at some time or another, accept for the most recent... So they should all be here to find. Unfortunately, some were only posted on scenario boards that are no longer active. A quick (but not exhaustive) check through my own files shows that so far I've at least done the following aircraft:

La7
P51D
F4F4
A6M2
Yak9U
Spit Mk1
Spit MkV
Spit MkIX
109E3
109G2
109G6
109G10
F4U1C
F6F5
Fw190D9
Fw190A5
MC202
MC205
P38
P47D11
Hurri MkIIC

Some have been done for SL, 15k and 30k and some only for SL. Also, they have been done over a long period of time, so I can't vouch for the diagrams that are several patches out of date. I know I recently checked the F6F5 and the old diagram didn't match the current flight model, the current aircraft was significantly better in some respects, so either I made a mistake when I did the original data extraction, or some of its modelling parameters were  changed in the meantime.

The most recent additions to that list are the La7, Yak9U and the 109G10 that I've prepared for an upcoming article at SimHQ.

Badboy
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: 1Duke1 on April 13, 2003, 09:21:19 PM
Thanks for the list

I haven't looked over the website extensively yet, so I apologize if the answer to this question is there....What procedures do you perform to get the data points?  I have knowledge of EM diagrams (I am a former F-14 pilot) but no test pilot experience :) Do you have a set of parameters that you follow?  I would like to try and do some testing myself.  If you want to email me instead of posting here: dblems@cox.net

Thanks!
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: FTJR on April 14, 2003, 01:03:37 AM
Hi Badboy,

Thanks very much, could you post the Mc205, Fw190d / a5 and  La7.

Like to thankyou on behalf of everyone for the effort you put into these charts.

Regards

FTJR:p
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Soda on April 14, 2003, 01:18:56 PM
I'd love to see any/all of these if I could badboy.  I can only imagine the amount of work that went into them and I know I've looked at several of these diagrams as posted in the past.  They really are excellent once you understand how to read them.

Hopefully you aren't under a restriction on posting some/all of them because I for one would love to see them all.

-Soda
AH Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: xHaMmeRx on April 14, 2003, 07:44:23 PM
Badboy,

I'd be happy to host any of your charts in a similar format to your other write-ups on my site.

Hammer
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Badboy on April 15, 2003, 05:32:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by FTJR
Hi Badboy,

Thanks very much, could you post the Mc205, Fw190d / a5 and  La7.

FTJR:p


Hi FTJR

Here are a couple of threads I saved that include some of the aircraft you are interested in. These threads have been saved in pdf format so you will need the free reader to view them.

This was the first thread that might be of interest:

Scenario Performance Thread 1 (http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/pdf/Aircraft performance thread2.pdf)

This was the second:

Scenario Performance Thread 2 (http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/pdf/biggest threat thread2.pdf)

I've also included the original EM diagrams from those threads in jpg  format in this zip file:

Several EM diagram overlays from those threads (http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Mixed EM Diagrams.zip)

Hope that helps...

Badboy

PS
You should be able to right click on the links above to download the files.
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Badboy on April 15, 2003, 06:07:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Soda
I'd love to see any/all of these if I could badboy.  I can only imagine the amount of work that went into them and I know I've looked at several of these diagrams as posted in the past.  They really are excellent once you understand how to read them.

Hopefully you aren't under a restriction on posting some/all of them because I for one would love to see them all.

-Soda
AH Trainer Corps
The Assassins.


I don't really have any restrictions Soda, everything I do is intended for the community. It's just that sometimes I generate new diagrams in order to illustrate an article, in which case I don't like to post them elsewhere until the article has generated enough hits to justify itself :)

The main problem however, is that I'm fairly disorganised, and I've posted diagrams in threads all over the place, and I can't always remember where or when. Throw in a couple of system upgrades, and it's not even easy for me to find everything I've done :)

Badboy
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Badboy on April 15, 2003, 06:21:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by 1Duke1
Thanks for the list

I haven't looked over the website extensively yet, so I apologize if the answer to this question is there....What procedures do you perform to get the data points?  I have knowledge of EM diagrams (I am a former F-14 pilot) but no test pilot experience :) Do you have a set of parameters that you follow?  I would like to try and do some testing myself.  If you want to email me instead of posting here: dblems@cox.net

Thanks!


Check your mail box.

Badboy
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: FTJR on April 15, 2003, 06:45:00 AM
Badboy,

Once again a big "THANK YOU"  for the effort.  

The only trouble is now everyone knows :)


Cheers

FTJR
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Badboy on April 23, 2003, 03:50:20 PM
Just overlaid the F4U-1D with the Fw190-A5 for comparison. They are very close, with a slight edge to the F4U-1D.

(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/F4U1D v Fw190A5 .jpg)


Badboy
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: F4UDOA on April 24, 2003, 10:17:32 AM
FTJR,

I have an Excel spreadsheet on my webpage that creates EM's when you enter the correct data such as wing area, wing span, HP at given alt and max speed at that alt.

Then change the G factor to the selected G force and click on the EM tab at the bottom.

This spreadsheet was done by Zigrat and I take no credit other than posting it.

Here is my webpage

F4UDOA's web page (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html)
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: FTJR on April 25, 2003, 09:16:55 AM
F4UDOA,

Thanks very much


:D
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: RatPenat on May 15, 2003, 09:56:15 AM
Can you put Badboy EM from p38 vs all variants 109 and zekes?
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Soda on June 03, 2003, 01:20:49 PM
Hate to drag up this thread again but I'd love to see the remaining aircraft EM diagrams that you didn't manage to post.  In the zip files were  some great scenario related comparisons, but there were a number of planes in your list that you hadn't included in those files.  The La7, Yak9, A6M, F4F, 190D9, just to name a few.  Any chance you could package those up and post them or email them to me?

soda_p@telus.net

It would be very appreciated.

-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps.
The Assassins.
Title: Re: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: TequilaChaser on June 05, 2003, 05:28:21 PM
LOL....been hunting down and searching for Leon's EM diagrams for last 3 years that deal with Aces High!

keep searching, you can find them!

It would be nice though if Badboy could scrounge the lot of them up for us :D

TC:cool:
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: bigjava on June 09, 2003, 03:32:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Soda
Hate to drag up this thread again but I'd love to see the remaining aircraft EM diagrams that you didn't manage to post.  In the zip files were  some great scenario related comparisons, but there were a number of planes in your list that you hadn't included in those files.  The La7, Yak9, A6M, F4F, 190D9, just to name a few.  Any chance you could package those up and post them or email them to me?

soda_p@telus.net

It would be very appreciated.




Badboy!!! ME TOO if it is not produce trouble :p

bigjava@inwind.it
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Jospe2 on September 11, 2003, 03:52:32 PM
Badz,  I tried emailing you through SimHQ to see if you could forward me a copy of the EM charts you have, but have not heard anything back.  I was wondering if you or anyone else who has a copy of these could forward them to me at P.Kochis@comcast.net.

Thanks
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Badboy on September 16, 2003, 05:30:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jospe2
Badz,  I tried emailing you through SimHQ to see if you could forward me a copy of the EM charts you have, but have not heard anything back.  I was wondering if you or anyone else who has a copy of these could forward them to me at P.Kochis@comcast.net.

Thanks


Hi Jospe2

Did you check out the links to the diagrams posted earlier in this thread?  

Badboy
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Virage on September 16, 2003, 09:19:12 PM
ty Badboy!
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: Jospe2 on September 17, 2003, 10:25:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Badboy
Hi Jospe2

Did you check out the links to the diagrams posted earlier in this thread?  

Badboy



Hiya Badboy,

Yes I did.   I was having a problem opening the .JPEG one but got it figured out.    Although I cant figure out how to print the PDF one.  It prints eveything on one page?   Hurts the eyes ;)

Also,  was wondering if you had all the other planes done you had listed above?   These are a great tool.

Thanks for replying I appreciate it.

Jospe
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: DroversDog on November 21, 2003, 01:30:47 AM
punt
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: meddog on November 27, 2003, 10:16:04 AM
Can you send me the numbers on the Spit IX.  Also how current or accurate are the spit 9 v MC 202 charts.  Plus it's impossible to see the intermediary lines on the chart
Title: Creating Energy Management Charts
Post by: SkyPiece on February 01, 2004, 10:29:17 PM
Wow! What great information! I think I'll try to work on some EM diagrams. Wish me luck :aok