Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Raubvogel on April 07, 2003, 07:17:29 AM
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Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf, standing on a Baghdad rooftop, denied his city had been stormed. Clouds of dust blew past and sirens could be heard as he spoke.
"They are sick in their minds. They say they brought 65 tanks into center of city. I say to you this talk is not true. This is part of their sick mind," Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf said. "There is no presence of American infidels in the city of Baghdad at all."
"Their forces committed suicide by the hundreds. ... The battle is very fierce and God made us victorious. The fighting continues," he said. "Yesterday, we slaughtered them and we will continue to slaughter them."
Amreeka is in no way occupying Baghdad, its just plane redickulus!
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You know, history repeat itself. Hitler ordered a counter attack with non existant divisions against a few million Russian entering the Berlin area. Mussolini was puzzled becouse after El Alamein he could not enter Egypt (with a white stallion and the sword of Islam) as a roman emperor . Sick minds.
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the french beret he is wearing is probly inferior quality and... too tight.
lazs
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Well, I'm back here after a weekend :)
Raubvogel, I wish you were right, I could get damn rich :)
Last things I heard on the radio before leaving home was the Echo of Moscow radio special correspondent saying he sees American tanks and soldiers in nazi-like helmets on the other side of Tigris. That guy is really brave.
I wonder how the things are really going. So far Iraqi officials showed foreign reporters burnt down American tanks and BMPs.
My opinoin is simple: it will be a siege, or a disaster like New Year 1995 in Grozniy. :( Or, more likely, a full-scale Stalingrad/Berlin scenario.
Tanks in a city... Poor tankers :(
some rags and blankets wet with gasoline dropped on an engine compartment from the second floor - and that's all...
Dozens of RPGs at point-blank... Land mines... Anti-tank "hedgehogs" blocking the retreat under a "dagger" machinegun fire...
It all depends on how desperate the people are.
:(
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wow boroda... you could work for cnn.. Maybe if the coalition troops simply throw down their rifles and desert their vehicles and run away some of them can get out with their lives...
we don't fight like russians... don't use your standards on us.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
wow boroda... you could work for cnn.. Maybe if the coalition troops simply throw down their rifles and desert their vehicles and run away some of them can get out with their lives...
we don't fight like russians... don't use your standards on us.
lazs
I am kindly waiting for a lecture about a combat in the city.
The most intersting part is what the tank crew should do if someone will drop a rag wet with petrol on their engine compartment, at the same time shooting at them from dozen automats.
You surely can't fight like Russians, because you don't have 1% of our experience of city combat. And because you fight for some weird interests of your financial groups, and never fought for your own land and freedom.
BTW, my family name should remind you of some episodes of a battle inside one big city...
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Originally posted by Boroda
I am kindly waiting for a lecture about a combat in the city.
Lesson # 1
Look at how the Russians do it -DONT do that.
Lesson # 2
See lesson # 1.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Lesson # 1
Look at how the Russians do it -DONT do that.
Lesson # 2
See lesson # 1.
LOL! Well, unless you have disposable troops....and a second line behind the first with rifles raised to "encourage" the forward line to move forward...
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What were the latest figures since we've been in Baghdad? 3,000 Iraqi's killed yesterday and one (1) American soldier. Youre right Broda, we're in real trouble here.
(Wait - your news service has told you we're in the city, right?)
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Boroda why you so harsh on the people the ACTUALLY supplied you weapons so you can fight the germans in WW2.....
is that how you say thank you in Russia....
stop finger pointing.....its useless.
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boroda... don't stake the populace down and run over their legs with your tanks and they will probly not drop burning rags on your tanks.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda... don't stake the populace down and run over their legs with your tanks and they will probly not drop burning rags on your tanks.
lazs
Ergo: when someone shoots from an apartment building - call artillery support and demolish the whole block.
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Boroda you don't seem to realize the obvious: Iraqis don't want to fight for Hussein. Not even against Yankee Imperialists wearing Nazi helmets.
ra
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ergo: when someone shoots from an apartment building - call artillery support and demolish the whole block.
Would be the last time someone took pot shots from an apartment building.
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Originally posted by SLO
Boroda why you so harsh on the people the ACTUALLY supplied you weapons so you can fight the germans in WW2.....
is that how you say thank you in Russia....
stop finger pointing.....its useless.
I say thank you americans for canned pork and telephone wire. Also thank you for letting us finish nazis without the long-awaited second front, opened only when nazis were alredy doomed.
Also thank you for your brave behaviour in Ardennes when we had to start a Balaton operation two weeks earlier, loosing half-million soldiers just to save you from impressive two SS tank divisions.
No offences, please.
People see "anti-american" things in my posts here, while I don't mean it. But it's OK to throw **** on my country, isn't it? Finaly we are only "barbarians who came from the east" (c) Sturmbahnfurher Grunherz. :rolleyes:
I only tried to describe what will happen if you'll try to start street fights in a big city, that is fortified and prepared for defence. You always have an option to either starve them or simply start blowing up the whole city block by block.
If "coalition" command doesn't understand it - I pity your soldiers. :(
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Originally posted by SLO
Boroda why you so harsh on the people the ACTUALLY supplied you weapons so you can fight the germans in WW2.....
Dude...really...
I mean I'm not exactly the most pro-russian poster on these forums, but even I was offended by that one. Please get an education on ww2 before posting drivel like that.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I say thank you americans for canned pork and telephone wire. Also thank you for letting us finish nazis without the long-awaited second front, opened only when nazis were alredy doomed.
You really should say thank you for the radio sets, locomotives, trucks and boots though. They were a heck of alot more important than you seem to want to admit...especially the radio sets.
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Originally posted by ra
Boroda you don't seem to realize the obvious: Iraqis don't want to fight for Hussein. Not even against Yankee Imperialists wearing Nazi helmets.
ra
I don't know. Let's see. You seriously underestimate their desperation to fight for their land.
Another thing is that the commander/partizan/guerrila who will become famous for his heroism and achevements fighting the agressors will have better chances to become a leader of the post-war Iraq, in case a "democratic" puppet givernment will not last long.
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Originally posted by SLO
Boroda why you so harsh on the people the ACTUALLY supplied you weapons so you can fight the germans in WW2.....
is that how you say thank you in Russia....
stop finger pointing.....its useless.
I dont want take position on this, but can someone please point me on some site where I can see numbers about this support?
For sure it was very important, but in someway seem an exageration, looking at the amount of men the Russian Army had in WW2, to say that they were armed by US weapons "each one of them".
On a side note, the lifes that the russian sacrificed to "erode" and almost disintegrate the mighty German army were'nt enough "deal" for you? :confused:
[added in edit]
My point is:
There was a common enemy, Russia contributed with some production effort, and an HUGE effort in human lifes, and structural damage, while, on the other side, US and UK contributed with their huge industries, and with their efforts to disrupt the industrial capability of Germany, until they opened a second front, drawing away almost 1/3 of the forces Germany had to deploy.
It was a common effort, costly for each part involved, and each one payed the bill, I dont see why someone can claim the "most credit" (make sense?).
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He said he didn't mean it.
BTW... some of those "poor tankers" are showering in the Presidential Palace.
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Slo is canadian he was being sarcastic
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Originally posted by Hortlund
You really should say thank you for the radio sets, locomotives, trucks and boots though. They were a heck of alot more important than you seem to want to admit...especially the radio sets.
I just mentioned the very important but least mentioned thing, and the thing that was most common-known by Soviet people.
IMO the really most important thing were trucks. By 1942 we had some nice radios and other radio equipment, including radars. And field communications were based on telephones. Phone lines are widely used even now, being immune to modern ECM :) The simplier - the better.
Lend-Lease was important, but there is no doubt that USSR could win the war without it. Second front in Europe in 1943 (as promised) could be much more helpfull...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Lend-Lease was important, but there is no doubt that USSR could win the war without it.
Disagree. I'm not saying lend-lease was crucial for the victory, but
I am not entirely convinced that the soviets would have won without it. Just two examples are the soviet tank losses in 43, without lend lease you would have had negative numbers for 43, that is bad. Or Bagration 1944, no way would you have been able to advance that far that fast without the lend lease trucks.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Last things I heard on the radio before leaving home was the Echo of Moscow radio special correspondent saying he sees American tanks and soldiers in nazi-like helmets on the other side of Tigris. That guy is really brave.
I think that special correspondent is reporting from the warmth of his studio, located somewhere in Moscow.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Disagree. I'm not saying lend-lease was crucial for the victory, but
I am not entirely convinced that the soviets would have won without it. Just two examples are the soviet tank losses in 43, without lend lease you would have had negative numbers for 43, that is bad. Or Bagration 1944, no way would you have been able to advance that far that fast without the lend lease trucks.
There are no "what if"s in history. Lend-leased tanks were not as critical as trucks and (hmm) telephone wire. The best thing Soviet tankers said about Sherman was that it's a "great tank for peace time service".
Lend-Lease really helped, and without it Vicotry could cost more lives and effort... But I hope that USSR could win anyway. It was the war for the survival for all the nations of USSR...
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and the money given to your country in financial aid since the berlin wall came down means nothing either right? those nasty americans are just trying to invade or steal your country right?
The Americans are the men in black slowly subjigating us with drugs in their macdonalds burgers!! The more we eat the more we are hooked on that terrible horror to humanity!
sheesh learn to appreciate SOMETHING will you?
what if we left Russia without aid or political help during that time of change borohda. Your country would have had even more wars and independance battles. Whether you want to admit it or not the way we live in the west isnt so terrible is it? We maybe are controlled somewhat by the governments but not on the personal level.We have a say in who we want to lead us forward and we constantly try to improve things and whats more we are unlikely to be executed or tortured for not agreeing with our governments.We (UK) dont invade anyone but we will fight whoever threatens us. The same cant be said of many other countries since WW2. Most of Europe and the US enjoy a very similar way of life and it is pretty damn good. When your country expressed the feeling they wanted these same freedoms we helped to secure it best we could.You seem to have the freedom but now its a case of trying to rectify what your regime of communism actually produced rather than the beliefs which shaped the ideals of communism. The actual theory is a wonderful dream , all people equal etc but in reality it meant your leaders were able to control and restrict its people. Now you have democracy you can go anywhere in the world , do whatever you want within the limits of your earnings. It is certainly not the west that is responsible for the collapse of your economy years back but those same leaders which misused their power. I have absolutely NO animosity toward Russians for cold war stuff and you know what , if you've met many Americans you would know they dont either.We realise it was the people in power not the average Russian.The same cannot be said of what you think of us it seems as you do nothing in these boards but try to make Americans out as war mongers. Do you not see that those that call for war and those that dont both have the freedom to demonstrate and both have the power to vote on or off that government in the very next ellection if they feel they are ignored.
All the west really wants is a safe planet on which to earn money and lead an even more enjoyable lifestyle. Hopefully along the way we wont lose sight of our humanity and we will continue to help as best we can those countries which need help. We ALL have to do our bit for that. By making sure we vote in the right people, its open to abuse sure but its still free elections.If they screw up they lose so in that we maintain some control over those in power.Without it those same people in power would appear to be totally corruptable.It has been shown again and again throughout history. When these powers are challenged they often kill their own people to prevent it, in western society they have to answer to us every four years or so and our people are not murdered for challenging the present government!
Its the same for Iraq(only a lot worse). The problem isnt with the people its the leaders. America and UK dont want the Iraqi's country or to kill civilians, we just want a stable and safe region with the chance to EARN a living and live in our own country, we can ALL make money and not starve. Is this really so terrible? The reason the west is FORCED to get involved with the middle east is UNFORTUNATELY due to the need for oil which UNFORTUNATLEY has become a necessity to our living the way we do.Ok its not the best thing for the planet but hey we didnt know that when we got started did we? This makes it none the less important that our society isnt held to ransom over it which is basically what Saddam is attempting
when you think about it its what it all started over way back in WW2, the moral side of this struggle for this horrible stone around the human races kneck (the oil)is the poor people stuck in the middle of it all. What choice do leaders have really when inaction means regimes continue and the west is threatened by the deliberate attacks on its very foundations by those regimes.
I think the US has been actually amazingly generous to any country they have gone to war with once they see it is a more free country.You condemn their people for this?
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Originally posted by hazed-
drugs in their macdonalds burgers!! The more we eat the more we are hooked on that terrible horror to humanity!
I KNEW IT!!!!! I KNEW IT!!!!
I have always asked myself WHY in hell people keep eating those plastic made burgers!!!
:D
(Ever tryed the Mcburgers here in Iurope? Blah!!)
:)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Also thank you for letting us finish nazis without the long-awaited second front, opened only when nazis were alredy doomed.
So you choose not to help the rest of Europe by opening up a second front with Hitler, and in fact sign a treaty with him... then your attacked... forced into war... and then whine about how we didnt invade France soon enough to help you? Meanwhile driving our tanks and flying our aircraft the whole time your complaining?
Sorry Broda - but thats kind of rediculous.
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Bell P-39 Air Cobra.....was American made and givin to Russia during WW2....
some P-40's too if I'm not mistaking...
thats what I was talking about:p
I mean stop pointing the finger Borada....
Didn't the russians send men to fight germans WITHOUT weapons....and if they didn't fight...they where shot by there own countrymen.....
oh BTW Hortlund.....up yours my Swedish dweeb friend:eek:
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Originally posted by SLO
Bell P-39 Air Cobra.....was American made and givin to Russia during WW2....
some P-40's too if I'm not mistaking...
thats what I was talking about:p
How many?
More info, please??
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Ok, I'll do by myself: (quick search on google) "WW2 factbook" http://www.skalman.nu/worldwar2/su-lendlease.htm
Churchill (All armed with 6-pounder gun) 301
Cromwell 6
M10 Wolverine TD 52
M15A1 MGMC 100
M17 MGMC 1.000
M18 Hellcat TD 5
M24 Chaffee 2
M26 Pershing 1
M3 Lee/Grant ("Coffin for 7 brothers") 1.386
M31 ARV (M3 Medium tank chassis) 115
M3A1 "Stuart" light tank 1.676
M4 Sherman (75mm / 76mm) 2.007 / 2.095
M5 Light tank 5
Matilda Mk. II 1.084
T-48 (SU-57) Tank destroyer 650
Tetrarch 20
Valentine Bridgelayer 25
Valentine Mk. III/IV/IX/XI 2.394 (British) 1.388 (Canadian)
the Russians got about 351.700 trucks and 78.000 Jeeps from the USA.
Oh, my... THIS is a big number.
Another Site:
http://wio.boom.ru/tank/ll.htm
I noticed a strange coincidence, check near the end of the page:
In short words: "Thank you, friends! You helped a lot!
But the second front in Europe in 1942 (or at least in 1943;
instead of almost useless war in Africa) would be much better..."
:confused:
'Nother: http://members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/lus.htm
General production numbers:
http://members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/ac1.htm
(WOW, in '44 Germany produced 40.000 planes!!! :eek: )
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WOW, in '44 Germany produced 40.000 planes!!!
I looked at that table and it just doesn't seem right to me. Probably better to check other sources before believing that one. IMHO.
ra
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Seemed strange to me too (but the German part was'nt so strange, I already heard about an incredible amount of planes produced in '44, in different and more credible sources).
BTW, was a 10 minutes search with google, for sure not the ultimate info.
:)
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I'd believe it. Germany was producing a hell of a lot of planes in 1944 and even through 1945- they just ran out of the gas and pilots they needed to fly them.
Something like 35k Bf109s were made, and I forgot the number of 190s but it was in the high teens I believe. Plus all the 'wonder weapons', bombers, attack planes, etc.
I don't find it hard to believe that Germany made 40,000 planes in 1944.
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I think October 1944 was the highest aircraft production output month for germany in the whole war. In other words the strategic bombing offensive on aircraft factories was made ineffective by german responses and reorganization. There were always plenty of planes but no pilots and no gas - strategic bombing of oil and attrition of pilots were the key.
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Check out this pic of American Tankers,huddled fearfully around their tank in Baghdad.
Tankers in sheer terror (http://www.cnn.com)
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
So you choose not to help the rest of Europe by opening up a second front with Hitler, and in fact sign a treaty with him... then your attacked... forced into war... and then whine about how we didnt invade France soon enough to help you? Meanwhile driving our tanks and flying our aircraft the whole time your complaining?
Sorry Broda - but thats kind of rediculous.
Go read some books or keep silence - it will help you to look clever.
Go read something about USSR offering aid to Czechoslovakia in 1938. Go read about USSR/UK/France negotiations in August 1939.
Yeah, we did attack poor helpless Hitler to rape all Germans regardless of age and sex. Is it what they told you at school?
Indeed, god bless america. But even gods can't fight ignorance.
Good book to read: L. Mosley, "On Borrowed Time. How World War II began".
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I don't think the word given would be entirely correct.
"A price tag was naturally attached to all deliveries, with following typical fighter prices:
P-40 Kittyhawk - 44.900 dollars, P-39 Airacobra - 50.700 dollars and P-47 Thunderbolt - 83.000 dollars."
I have no idea how much of those they actually paid.
http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/geust/aircraft_deliveries.htm
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Check out this pic of American Tankers,huddled fearfully around their tank in Baghdad.
That picture was staged in Hollywood. The real tankers are begging for mercy from the triumphant Fedayeen who attacked the evil invaders and are pushing them back to Kuwait. Just wait and see.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I am kindly waiting for a lecture about a combat in the city.
The most intersting part is what the tank crew should do if someone will drop a rag wet with petrol on their engine compartment, at the same time shooting at them from dozen automats.
You surely can't fight like Russians, because you don't have 1% of our experience of city combat. And because you fight for some weird interests of your financial groups, and never fought for your own land and freedom.
BTW, my family name should remind you of some episodes of a battle inside one big city...
Boroda..you're worth money. Okay... what is the prime factor in any defense? Come on brilliant boy..think... think ....
((ROLLS DRUMS))
MOTIVATION OF THE DEFENDERS....
Your missing this w/the Iraqi's. You can kiss your Stalingrad wish goodbye. When armored forces can PENETRATE the INTERIOR of a CITY w/little resistence it means...ITS OVER.
The Fat Lady is on stage and getting ready to sing comrade.
Enjoy
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Hazed, thank you for opening my eyes. This is KGB who makes me post horror stories about street combat here. If I will not do it - they will send me to Siberia to clean the snow.
I don't believe in "liberation".
I don't believe in "freedom" that comes with tanks, cassete bombs and napalm.
Go tell about "good intentions" to someone else.
Intervent forces did all possible things to make Saddam the real leader of independant Iraq. Now he is a symbol of freedom that unites Iraqi people against agressors. They will fight you "on the beaches, in the land and in the sea".
As for your "aid" in early-90s - many thanks for the fact that we now have to work to pay IMF debts, that they gave on the conditions of destroying Russian economics.
Also thank you for your great lord Judd, openly supporting terrorists who blow up apartment buildings in my city and take hostages in theatres.
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Originally posted by LLv34_Snefens
I have no idea how much of those they actually paid.
Every cent.
Some things were paid twice. USSR re-paid all the gold that was lost on HMS Edinbourgh, sank by British destroyers.
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Originally posted by batdog
MOTIVATION OF THE DEFENDERS....
If they don't have motivation to defend their own land - the hell with them. Then their fate is to feed occupants.
So far they don't easily surrender.
I am 100% sure that Western media will do it's best to make everyone think they are so #uking eager to overthrow the "evil dictator". You can find enough collaborators everywhere.
Don't you know when Saddam suddenly turned out to be an "evil dictator"? When he nationalised Iraqi oil industry. He got some more support for murdering Iraqi communists in mid-70s. But nationalisation of oil industry was not forgiven.
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I don't believe in "freedom" that comes with tanks, cassete bombs and napalm.
How did the Red Army convince the German armies to leave the Soviet Union?
ra
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Originally posted by Boroda
I am kindly waiting for a lecture about a combat in the city.
You surely can't fight like Russians, because you don't have 1% of our experience of city combat.
Nope.. we don't fight in city combat like russians. We're doing it without dying by the thousands.