Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hangtime on October 21, 2000, 02:32:00 PM
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Gents; I just fired myself.
Sorry.
Way too much fer me... and I don't wish to whine or squeak.. you all know what happened.
Or what didn't happen.
I've learned my lesson.. and will stay well away from these kinds of things in the future.
<S!>
Hang
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Well I heard you saying something about mission planners...But dunno what more happened.
I by myself was a walkon. Flied a 190A5. Got killed by a P38 that sneaked while looking up to other two high cons (<S!> Ice, nice sneak). And reinforced a decision I have.
I wont take part in any scenario that has not a hard ceiling of 20K unless it is a bomber scenario (then its realistic)
Someone heard about 30K-32K fights over italy? and over 35K bombers?...both things happened today over Malta and Sicily...I dont know how do G2s perform at those altitudes, but 190s for sure can't fight there. And that means that half the fighter force of the LW is next to useless.
I have seen a lot of good things in this scenario, like good organization, coordination and good plans of action.
But the desire of the allied fighter force to go over 30K (And I say :well over 30K) made a fight impossible. I don't blame anyone, it was the settings and I accept it.
I told Zigrat about this and he answered me that "if we set the HC lower then the P38 aren't in their best altitude".
Well, P38s can be an incrediby tough foe low on the deck and up to 20K too. 190 is innofensive at an altitude where to go over 200IAS in a 190 is to feel like a ferrari.
Was fun, but could'be been way better for a big part of us. <S!> all anyway.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Hang, if it's too much work, then take a break, but if it's backlash from people flying in it, screw em, or nominate them run it. I don't see anyone else offering to take over.
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Hangtime,
Please promptly unfire yourself. Speaking for the 346th BG (B17`s), we obliterated and captured both targets set for us - the 326th gooned well and Frenchies P47 escorts did their jobs in the face of sacrifice. We returned to base 100% no casualties - successful mission. Your plan worked a treat, and we need more like `em.
Wilfrid
XO 346th BG
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Don't matter.. I'm out. I didn't ask fer the job; didn't want the job in the first place.
I don't fly this sim to get aggravated and annoyed..
Damn; glad you guys in the 346th got to and accomplished your objectives; makes me proud. WTG. You guys have never falterd; planned and briefed your missions superbly and did the job like pros. Rest of you should take note.. these guys have it on the ball. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thanks for you co-operation and support! And best of luck on the upcomming sets! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 10-21-2000).]
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hi all:
to start with, hang, if you want, i will be glad to help you out. it will take some time yes, but we can make it work. let me know.
second, if hang does not return, well then i will give it a go, and will take any help at all.
last, RAM, dont go whinning off about the allied forces up over 30k. the axis force head straight for that high alt as well. the raeson is simple.
everybody knows the other guy is way up there. my squad found a squad of 109's that had alt advangte on us, and we where at 27k.
so dont being saying its the allied forces that are way up there only. I would love to see a 15 to 20 k cap in here. hell, id rather fight at 1k rather then 20k. but it is all the squads heading for the high alt so they wont get bounced.
wolf37
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Originally posted by wolf37:
last, RAM, dont go whinning off about the allied forces up over 30k. the axis force head straight for that high alt as well. the raeson is simple.
everybody knows the other guy is way up there. my squad found a squad of 109's that had alt advangte on us, and we where at 27k.
so dont being saying its the allied forces that are way up there only. I would love to see a 15 to 20 k cap in here. hell, id rather fight at 1k rather then 20k. but it is all the squads heading for the high alt so they wont get bounced.
wolf37
I dont whine. I only say that I had fun but could have been much better.
And to the other thing, you say we went straight up to 30K. True. Because we knew you were all coming at 32K.
That is the reason I want a hard ceiling. That way noone will go up to 30k because its forbidden (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). So you are only giving me the reason (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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wolf, that's where a hard ceiling comes in - no one WILL be bounced.
The fight is uneven enough as it is without the LW not being able to actually go on the offensive when encountering enemies.
I led SG4 around very carefully, conserving airframes for a later frame where hopefully we will have an opportunity to fight back.
I kept at 8k over a friendly base, and naturally was accused of ack hugging, which I was doing.
We were ALWAYS on the defensive. As the last two frames has shown; give us a fighting chance, and we will take it.
But 190s are total pigs above 25k. At 30k, auto level can send the damned thing into a spin. I lost 8k this way.
So, a hard celing would make it more fun for both LW and allieds, since the allieds would actually have to check their sixes.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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then lets put in a hard ceiling of 15k
wolf37
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Got drafted (thanks Wolf), and had a blast!
<S> all you 109's that was a great furball, and smart flying!
Camel
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Hard ceiling sounds like a bad idea to me, except for buffs. Fighters should be allowed to go as high as they want. And yes, 190A's are pretty useless up high.
ra
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Since I'm out.. I have no voice.
However; allow me to point out that if this is supposed to be something even remotely resembling a WWII era scenario, then alt caps are absurd.
Soon as they get established; the next thing we'll hear will be 'you were too high; you cheat; wannnh wannh wannh'.
As it is now the number of provisional and 'permanant' ROE changes; this 'mission planner' nonsense as well as 'timing' issues have already made the complictaions too many. Add on CO's not showing; CO's not responding to emails; CO's ignoring comm setups, Planners not advising HQ of new pre-game requirements, not responding to emails, incorrectly set Arenas; radar anomolies; enemy factories and ack complexes located adjacent to friendly fields, etc etc have robbed me of every iota of fun there may have been initially.
I just wanna fly. Not get annoyed. I fly this sim to work off stress.. not compound it.
The potential is here for a really good immersive experience. I hope my replacement fares better in this enviornment and finds a way to get the guys supposedly 'in charge' to take charge and manage their squads as well as the 346th and 234th has... and I hope they get that damn arena fixed. 4 sessions with hostile acks next to friendly bases is 3 too many.
<S!<> All.. hope there's no ill will; I have none.
Hang
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Yea ok that woukld totally negate any advantage the 38 has over c205 for example.
As it was patrolling the western sector tasked to bomber intercept cruising at 30k in our 4 P38's instead of what should have been 8 P38, we encountered 7 or 8 HIGHER C205 !
So pls dont complain of Alt dweeb allies, we dragged em west obviously was the air cover for the raids near our HQ, its a pity nobody was in control of our war effort and assigned an intercept cos we dragged the fighters away.
After extending and returning at 32k well damn me what do we see higher C205 again !
As for a lower hard ceiling do that and the P38 has no advantages with C205 at all worth talking of.
According to my charts from AH btw the P38 should be faster near the deck but that did not stop 3 or 4 C205 slowly catching me and eventually removing my tail.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier:
So pls dont complain of Alt dweeb allies
I don't complain. You have planes that fight well at all altitudes and I love a plane that over 10K starts to lose engine power and that over 15K simply sucks.
You flew at an altitude where you know that you negate any effectiveness of half the LW fighter force. You did the smart thing. but in mediterranean I doubt there were many fights over 30K...in Med most engagements were at low level.
It is part of the game and I accept like it is. So I wont fly again a scenario unless there is a hard ceiling that I think its fair for all parts. No hard ceiling, for sure, isnt fair IMO.
I dont know how am I complaining here...I only say that I want to get fun and if I see that I wont have it, I wont fly, nothing else (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oh ,and P38 will lose advantage against C205 over 25K...190s lose advantage over 10K against ALL planes. So that is not an argument. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Hangtime, stay
Ram, what bombers were over 35,000 feet?
The B17s climbed to and bombed from 26,000 feet and your statement is an outright lie unless you saw B26s or Ju88s at over 35,000 feet.
You cast dispersions like rice at a wedding with little regard for accuracy and I usually ignore your posts because I got really short boots and the roadkill overflows the tops about 1 sentence into the text.
If you do not like the rules take yer marbles{whats left of them} and go home.
CAPS??
Those are for wearing on your head, not for WWII Historical {as far is possible with present plane lineup} Airplane scenarios.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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Originally posted by Sunchaser:
Ram, what bombers were over 35,000 feet?
Just when I was leaving the arena someone was reporting bombers at 35K.
Can't say more, as all I saw were suborbital P38s and Spitfires, sorry. But I readed it.
AS for the rest of your post, well is your problem. I dont mind what you may think of me. In fact I mind quite little about what can anybody think about me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And no, I dont like the rules. And yes, as I said I wont fly more scenarios with no reasonable Hard Ceiling (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) so you are being redundant in your post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Couple comments here.
1st.
I do not believe the 346th, (the b-17's) ever got to 30k. Our supposed alt was at 28k. (and quite frankly since I wasn't a "lead" plane I never looked at alt. was busy enough just trying to stay in my position, and keep separation and speed together, to somewhat closely match that of my flight leader. Can't say we didn't go higher than 30k, but I don't think we did.
2nd.
Since this is a supposedly quasi-real "life like scenario", (yes, I'm using the term very loosely.) I understand the need to replace plane types, etc. The germans had the alt problems with some aircraft in the med. and to call for HC caps would just kill it as a scenario. (I can just see Montgomery or Rommel getting a telegram from the other commander re: Hard Ceilings, and can imagine what the response would have been).
3rd.
Neutral Country snafu's
Hmm something needs to be handled here.. perhaps they need to be made destroyed or unusable, rather than just be Bishop. In RL even, the neutrals did NOT fire at overflights by EITHER hostile faction. They'd squeak about it, because it did happen, but they wouldn't fire upon the offenders.
4th.
Use of newly capture'd fields for anything other than landing and quiting for the DAY should NOT be allowed. To simulate the time neccessary to repair facilities, and get supplies air transported in. In fact, perhaps require a certain number of c-47's to land safely there, (like perhaps 10-15) to reflect this before it can be used for offensive capabilities. Otherwise it's not a scenario, just another day in the MA. (let anyone that lands there up a goon for it maybe from nearest accessible (for them) base.
5th.
HangTime, don't give up Bro,, we need ya...
It can only get BETTER.
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
PLEASE!! before anyone castigates me re: the quasi-RL scenario comment, take it as how it's meant,, not as it's written.. Please.
[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 10-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by SC-GreyBeard (edited 10-21-2000).]
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Sorry to hear about this Hang. I hope you reconsider.
If your not getting cooperation from your staff and flight leaders, fire 'em stat and hand pick your own. I know I would.
As to the med arena madness, I just accept the fact that these events are young and there will be growing pains... Consider it the fog of war, or something.
I also give a hearty salute to Zig, as I know he's been workin' his arse off and doing the best he can.
For me personally, all of these have been an absolute blast.
As to the alt cap suggestion - no way.
Again Hang - I hope ya reconsider, but completely understand your frustration... so it sounds like you made the best decision for yourself. Thanks for the effort you put in thus far - the planning and coordination have been outstanding under the circumstances.
<S>
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I'll second what Nash said.. hear hear.
Hearty thanks to Zig, Hang, Busch and whoever else is involved.
SALUTE!!!!!!!!!!
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
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Chaps,
I think we probably need the CO (Hangtime) to plan the missions - like he`s been doing, by email. Then, when the frame starts, thats it - the Squadron CO`s have their orders. Don`t hassle Hangtime with questions on Chan 2, `cos he`s done his job and wants to fly like everyone else. Its down to the CMs to announce the frame is open, closed etc.
BTW, wtg Zigrat and Busc tonight - smoothest frame yet - we`re ALMOST there!
Wilfrid
XO 346th BG
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Hangtime, I'm sorry to hear you are disappointed. I was present in the arena when it was set up and I thought it was set up correctly. Only after take off did I notice that this was not the case.
I apologize on behalf of the league organizers and assure that we will continue to work towards getting all things working. I can't say the league has been run perfectly, but I think we're making progress. "Each one better than the last".
Hangtime, I hope you reconsider, you're a valuable asset to the league and especially the allies. How on earth could they win without you?
<S!>
Axis CO - Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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To Nash and SCGB,
I concur whole heartedly. These things are tremendously difficult to organize and require a level of input from CMs and COs that far exceeds what can be expected from most people who are just trying to find some fun playing a game they love.
To RAM,
Good riddance with no regrets. Your lack of participation will have no effect whatsoever except to give the rest of us an opportunity to enjoy the challenge of flying in these events and expanding the scope of this sim without having to listen to you squeak about it. You seem absolutely incapable of mature behavior or maintaining any semblance of objectivity. Your willful coopting of this post of Hangtime's expressing his regrets and feelings about today's events to your own agenda is atrocious and inexcusable. Sorry for my tone but I couldn't stand to see this happen without expressing my outrage...I'm done.
<S> and thanks to all participants and the organizers, it is a huge challenge and well beyond my own abililty both in time and talent. Please reconsider Hang...although I completely understand your reasons for making the choice you have.
kbman
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I can understand Hangtimes frustration. Let him be.
As for ALT caps? Just alt CAP the bombers. If bombers are, say, capped at 15K. Well? Then the freeking astronauts at 30K are not going to see them right? The bomber escort will be lower by virtue of having to protect the bombers but they can be poitioned 2K above, 1k below or even 10K higher than thier charges...whatever.
In online sims/games altitude has always been the cheapest advantage for any fighter.
Bring the bombers lower, you bring the fight down lower.
-Westy
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Originally posted by kbman:
Good riddance with no regrets. Your lack of participation will have no effect whatsoever except to give the rest of us an opportunity to enjoy the challenge of flying in these events and expanding the scope of this sim without having to listen to you squeak about it. You seem absolutely incapable of mature behavior or maintaining any semblance of objectivity. Your willful coopting of this post of Hangtime's expressing his regrets and feelings about today's events to your own agenda is atrocious and inexcusable. Sorry for my tone but I couldn't stand to see this happen without expressing my outrage...I'm done.
Seems noone can accept critics?. You allways need to hear "its great" or feel bad? Has EVERYONE to think that it is ok if you think that it is?
Hang posted about what he felt and the problems he had. I posted what I felt and the problems I had. And I said that I thought that the ballance was wrong because the alt thing. And Isaid that I would chose better the scenarios I fly. Is that so unnaceptable?. Is it whining?
You know what? that if there are no critics in this life all will go as goes, well or bad ,right or wrong but with no changes. No evolution. Critics are always needed for improvement. You seem not to understand it.
In this community to disagree is equal to whine for 90% of the people. You know what?. You can go to h3ll with your whining and/or squeaking theories. I thought the scenario was lacking balance and said it. You can agree or disagree but it is my point of view and I exposed it in a neutral and fair way.
You seem to dislike someone disagreing with you. Its sad, because I won't applaude if everyone says "applaude", unless I think it is worth applauding. And If I dont like something I will ****ALLWAYS**** say it. Some times in a more harsh way (F4U comments), some others in a neutral and constructive way (read my first post if you think that it wasnt intended to be a constructive comment)
I didnt like some of the things of today's scenario. I did like others. I remarked both. You took only the negative thing while I remarked both good and bad things I had seen. Typical of prejudging guys to see only the bad critics.
So learn to read things like they are. Critics are good if put in a constructive way. I did put it in a fair way, still you have to mess with me.
Get lost and forget about me. Ok?.
Thanks
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-21-2000).]
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And BTW If I posted that in this thread was to NOT open yet other thread about this. I thought that as there was already one thread open on the subject there was no need to open another.
As you see, typical of a unmature behaviour (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Hangtime,
Its gonna take at least a year of this stuff with a dedicated team of organizers and a few more versions to get all the bugs worked out.
I totally understand your position! A fella has to have a decent return in enjoyment for the time invested. That didnt happen today but stay in the general area. Im thinking it should get better as time goes on.
Yeager
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Hangtime, get your butt back there you American Sissy. It's too easy to screew up something and say :"Ok, me bad, I quit".
So what? You leave everything like this, and say:"here's the mess, enjoy."
Learn from your mistakes, dust yourself up and go fighting. grrrr!!!
Frenchy.
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Originally posted by wolf37:
hi all:
everybody knows the other guy is way up there. my squad found a squad of 109's that had alt advangte on us, and we where at 27k.
so dont being saying its the allied forces that are way up there only. I would love to see a 15 to 20 k cap in here. hell, id rather fight at 1k rather then 20k. but it is all the squads heading for the high alt so they wont get bounced.
wolf37
LOL Wolf...talk about fog of war...If it was over malta and you were in spits, then the 109's were my squad. We were at 27k and thought that you guys were higher at above 30k!
Funny how impressions are formed. I remember leveling the squad at 27k and about a minute later seeing the Spits who looked to be above us. BTW that first encounter was a great fight. Very cat and mouse. <S>
Cobra
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Wolf37.. Since you've stepped forward to take the reins; looks like you got the job. You poor sod. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So that you may have some clue as to what you are stepping into; lemme give you a few pointers. First, you'd better get an AAR together from the squad CO's. Check CAMO's AAR outline for a workable format.. Camo's doin an outstanding job keepin his CO's communicating.. (ask him how he did that.. I neglected too; and I'm damn sorry I did) Somebody else here suggested that if you can't get a CO to do his job; fire his bellybutton and find somebody else. Good Luck. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The pay stinks; the hours suck, and there are no discernable benifits.
Next; you are gonna need to try and get some kinda assurances from the organisers that your arena is set correctly; and impress upon them that postioning hostile acks next to your bases is entirely unacceptable.. good luck here too.
Then you need to convince them that they don't need to compound your pre-scenario diffculties by adding additional requirements without notice... I'd say that having your CO's report squad levels pre- frame; and allowing YOU to decide WHO you put in WHAT shorthanded squad from the walk on pool is preferable to the 'orgainisers' sending you the guys they don't want.
Having the 'organisers' fly for the opposition, setting the ROE and adusting the arena and selecting your pilots stinks to high heaven. I understand that their intentions are honorable; regardless of results. Nonetheless, the best way to make sure (trust; but verify) the intent is a fair game; either get them to estabish a blanced committee staffed by yourself and Cammo and your respective XO's or ask the 'organisers' to get the hell outta either sides cockpit or HQ.. IMHO if they manage to put a cap on alts; yer crews are gonna get screwed fer sure.
Lastly.. find a good XO. (I should have.. but didn't. bad mistake) Offload the AAR requirement stuff onto his shoulders, Give him the authority to hire and fire and have him whip up a good set of Squad CO's and have them feed HIM the pre-frame staffing/walk on requirements.
Next; give up MA flying and concentrate (three nights a week) on getting two sets of cohesive mission plans together.. one for 'fun' frames; one for 'the real deal' frames. Also, you'd better get somebody to head up your spit squad.. I assure you; you will be unable to handle your crews in the air and run a campaign at the same time effectivly.
Oh.. and grow a real thick skin. Takes a special kinda hide to do this and not go buggy trying. You have some outstanding pople there in your corner.. don't let 'em down like I did.
<S!> and again.. Good Luck!
Hang
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I like turbocharged engines (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"vorsprung durch technik"
<S> Hangtime u where a fine cdr
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On the astronaut issue:
I just don't see a point for a FW190-A8 squad to defend an airspace against Fighters coming in at 30k+... We were constantly on the run and against well flown enemies we won't stand a chance - not to say they had numerical advantage as well...
This may have been RL - but it's just no fun running from higher enemy all the time. And this sim does not reflect the real situation by any means... (planes, material, conditions) so for playabilitys sake give us a hard ceiling.
For Greybeard:
In RL neutral countries (e.g. Switzerland) virtually shot everything that entered their airspace. The Swiss forced more than 70 buffs to land at their airfields - they shot at axis and allied and were attacked by both as well. There is a nice story about a american P51 that shot down 2 swiss 109s... there were other swiss squadrons around but they mistook the P51 for theirs... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (yup Switzerland flew any plane they could take hold of...)
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Yeah - we all know about Switzerland's 'neutrality' in the war. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Kirin:
WHINER!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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(I can just see Montgomery or Rommel
getting a telegram from the other commander re: Hard Ceilings, and can imagine what the response
would have been).
Indeed. And since AH Buffs are such an accurate representation of RL, I wonder why level bombers ever flew below 25k if they could bomb targets as small as a .50 cal machine gun with 100% accuracy from 30,000 feet up.
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Given the circumstances and the buggy resources that the CM's and CO's have to work with I think they're doing pretty well. Somebody has to do it, or well never be able to have an AH scenario worth a damn . As for an alt cap to prevent bounces.. well that's just silly. Why would you want to prevent bounces ? In wwII you either got bounced or did the bouncing . I got killed today when we were bounced at 20k by high 190's <S>Nath. But that was my fault for going into indian country at that alt .
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Kirin, Dowding..
Yup, you're right.
Blew that one all to hell..
happens on occasion due to age and CRS....
wish I could remember what CRS stands for...
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
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ram said:
Oh ,and P38 will lose advantage against C205 over 25K...190s lose advantage over 10K against ALL planes. So that is not an argument.
Right on.
Kirin's point is also very well made.
Maybe it won't hurt if RAM decides not to participate. Maybe it won't hurt if I don't either.
But, if that continues, have fun flying alone, allies (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Afrika has top alt at 10k for jabos 15 for cover. Not realistic since in real life they could go higher and some did. Sure, scenario is different, but all the arguments o having unlimited alt set apply to it as well.
I'll tell you what; you gimme a fair fighting chance, and I'll fight even when badly outnumbered. I think I've proven that. Gimme a no chance situation, and I'll rtb, save airframes and reconsider whether this is the way I want to spend my Saturday night.
No biggie either way, but would be nice to use your guns once in a while in a scenario.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Damn; my bellybutton hurts.
[This message has been edited by Hairball (edited 10-22-2000).]
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A clarification..
I am NOT accusing Zigrat of cheating.. I know him to be a reputable pilot; and for his efforts with Med Leauge as well as in the MA he has my respect!
As a point of fact; it is improbable; if not impossible to manage the scenario, answer CO's questions, coordinate with the CM for on the fly arena settings and adjustments, or maintain anything less than chaos while sitting in one side or the others cocpit or HQ.
Proofs in the pudding. It was mayhem from an organisational standpoint.. and if nobody but pilots on 'the other side' have a hand on the switches; things are gonna get not done that MUST be done. (like answer my hails on A/C losses due to acks, or radar setting snafu's, etc) Then; as a result, some fast hard conclusions and decisons will be reached. Like mine. If I can't verify a point or setting, or get an answer to an immediate and pressing question.. what conclusions must be made?
When I say "trust; but verify" I mean just that... and with the CM and the organiser both tossing out on the fly changes that can (and did) drasticly effect either countrys readiness state or strategic postioning, and these people are flying the oppositions A/C; again I ask, what conclusions must be drawn?
Sorry.. again, not accusing anybody of 'cheating' or of even considering it. Just making clear that organizationl responsibilty of Zig and his CM in an event like this makes it an imperative that they disassociate themselves from an in-hq or in-air presence in the scenario.
Hang
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Hangtime;
First off thanks for your efforts.
I had looked very much forward to flying under your command. To my witness, the confusion of getting into this TOD was very high, but I thought you and the others were getting a handle on it.
I relished the thought of following your orders into battle. Fighting a co-ordinated effort I am certain is the way to go.
I was ready to give my virtual life for your honor. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But...
I was naive, I had no idea of the problems and frustrations you were up against. I am sorry that your experience got badly tainted.
You left the SEA in a hurry, and what I made to be kind hacked off mood. My question, what exactly was the straw that broke the camel's back?
Thanks! Someday I hope to shoot you down! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"Anyway, more golf..."
Humble
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RAM, Kirin, and other LW types: You want the fight to be mandated down to a level where the planes you fly perform well? Does that sound right to you?
Some planes were specifically designed for hi-alt, like the Jug and the P-38, some for low-alt, like the 190A. So if you choose to fly a 190A in an arena which has Jugs and P-38s, you should expect a disadvantage in hi-alt engagements.
We Jugs keep encountering C205s and 109s above our 30K alt, so our main advantage is blown right away.
Buffs should be limited to a real-world ceiling, somewhere in the mid-20K region. Any higher and bombing accurracy went to hell. B-26s should be even lower, like 15K or so. I'm not sure B-26s were even equipped with O2 as they were meant for lower altitude bombing. If bombers fly at more realistic altitudes, the fight would quickly come down below 25k.
ra
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You guys ARE aware that should your side happen to lose this scenario, that it's NOT that big of a deal, right?
The fate of the world does not in fact rest on a fair scenario, fly or don't fly, quit if you don't like it, hell if Axis is low I'll swap over, I don't care. Just give the guys a break or go do your own scenario.
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Originally posted by ra:
RAM, Kirin, and other LW types: You want the fight to be mandated down to a level where the planes you fly perform well? Does that sound right to you?
Again: Jugs and P38s CAN fight at low level. Both are fast and great BnZers at ALL Altitudes. And while it's true that P38s and P47s were optimized for high level fighting, they both proved mortally dangerous foes at low levels (Forked tail devil? Jug? both will be remembered as two of the best fighter bombers of all times, and to jabo you MUST fight low.)
Fw190As CAN'T fly at 30K. Let alone FIGHT there. Period.
They are worthless over 20K, go figure at 30K. They passed to history as very good low level fighters and jabos, but one of the worst high level fighters until D9 showed up.
It is simple. Jugs and P38 pilots at 15K can have a blast and do very good fighting. Fw190A at 30k only have endless annoyement and can't fly, let alone fight there.
In first case the pilots can have fun. In the second there is no way to have fun as you can't do anything.
If you dont understand this, man, you REALLY need to fly in that scenario, with those enemies, and those altitudes...But on a 190.
Lets see if you have fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
That said, what I stated was that if this is going to be like this with no hard ceiling, I wont take part. No hard feelings, no serious trouble. No annoyement. NO COMPLAINS.
Still you jumped all on me with "complainer", "Whiner", "dweeb",etc calls when I just said that I can't agree with one setting in the scenario. Again, if that is your view of whiners and complainers, you will be very unhappy guys in real life. Because for you everyone will be complaining.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-22-2000).]
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HTC TAKE NOTE.
WE-NEED-REALISTIC-ALTTITUDE
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LOL!
Hard deck of 15k in an scenario???!!! Who said that war was fair? or an even matchup?
I will remember this once LW get some uber AC.
Regards
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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An alt cap will only hurt planes like 190 and p51. This will take away their ability to BnZ . And force them to turnfight spitfires and 109's. Sure the BnZ planes can dive away, but when they come back the stallfighters will be right back up at the alt cap .
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Cloud layers and bomb accuracy for buff mission.
Cheers,
Pepino.
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Hmmm...every frame I have been involved in has consisted of the B17's climbing to about 26K. I dont think at any time were we ever over 26K which to me seems like a reasonable realistic altitude to bomb from. A few frames back, we went in at around 20K I believe and got tore up by a bunch of Axis pilots. Granted that was due to a lack of coordination with our escorts, but the enemy pilots sure didnt look like they were struggling to rip us to shreds that day.
Hangtime - I thank you for your efforts. It was fun flying with you. I wish you would reconsider, but I understand what you mean about the frustration. <S>!
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Just for the record, This 190 pilot and Luftwaffe guy couldn't care less if there was an altitude cap or not. If I'm fighting from a disadvantage, the sweeter the victory will be.
You won't hear this 'ol boy complain, I'm having too much fun.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 10-24-2000).]
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Whelp; was all ready to roll my sleeves up and wade back into this thing.. Zig; Busc and Camo have asked to form a committiee to better help manage the development, etc..
Then disaster stikes yet again. My In-laws, while on the way home Sunday night from visting my ex-wife in the hospital, perished in a car accident.
I'm gonna be outta circulation for awile, so I won't be back to Med Leauge. I sure hope they get the bugs worked out; it has all the makings for a great immersive experience.
Take note of Fatty's comment.. it don't matter one bit who wins.. as long as you had fun, and learned something of war in the air; they way it was.
And on that note... the hell with Alt caps. No B17 group, regardless of theatre, to my knowledge ever attacked a defended target at 15k. To do so would be suicide. To order them to do so is murder. I'm definitly against an alt cap in a scenario where the B17 is present.
To this point; the b17's in Med leauge have bombed from the 26-28k range. Yah.. it's a bit high.. but dammit; they are not in the scenario to be bait.. they have a critical mission. A significant portion of the allied assests have been dedicated to screening and escorting those buffs; and to date; they've been very effective. I hope they continue to do so.
As far as those high alt fights are concerned.. seems the axis is giving as good as it's getting. I've read and heard of several high co-alt skirmishes that have lasted up to 40 minutes with negligible losses on either side.
Good flying is happening on both sides in the scenario.. when pilots are briefed correctly; and no MA dweebishness takes place, no one rushes in for a dweeb kill. Those that do (usually the walk ons) become fodder in just a few moments. Easy come; fast to go. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
These kinds of superb 'on the edge of your seat' encounters thoughout the scenario have really warmed my cockels.. the guys are learning how to fight and live; not repeating the old MA 'rush in; hop on the dogpile and die' crap. It DOES require disipline and co-operation to be successful. Those that fly like idiots die, and damn fast.
SALUTE!, all of you who've flown, and endured... WTG, on both sides. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Duty calls.. I have things I must get done.
I'll be back.
Hang
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Hang,
Very sorry to hear that, best wishes to you.
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Just from reading this after having missed the first two frames (for personal reasons) I am going to have to say that I will not be a part of this "event" series. I signed up to fly anything from a FW-190A-5 to a Ju-88. I see no need to establish a "hard ceiling" of any type.
If the "event" is based loosely on a historical situation then why introduce something to make things balanced? To me that is BS. You want balance go play Quake or something that is going to give everyone equal opportunity to kill or be killed. The leadership with the best PLAN and not the best proposal for a hard ceiling should win. No wonder I am not having fun in any flight sim game these days.
Everyone is screaming for balance and realism in the same sentence when there really was not any balance from day one of WW2.
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Maj. LJK_Reschke
Kommandeur Jagdbomber,
StaffelKapitaen I-31 LJK
www.luftjagerkorps.com
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Damn. Our sincere condolensces to Hangtime and your family. Really sorry to hear this horrible news.
-Westy
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Actually, I'm having a great time. Kicked some serious a** in the first frame and got my arse handed to me in the second.
But you know what, it was still fun and a great break from the MA.
Give it a go Reschke...its actually good fun, if you go in with a healthy perpsective.
Cobra
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Cobra I am sure that it could be fun but for me right now is not the best time. A couple of weeks ago this might have saved me from not having fun playing games online but right now this is not what I need to be a part of. Thanks for trying m8.
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Maj. LJK_Reschke
Kommandeur Jagdbomber,
StaffelKapitaen I-31 LJK
www.luftjagerkorps.com