Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Urchin on April 07, 2003, 09:58:08 PM
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1v1 none of the Allied planes stand a chance against a A6M2. Period.
This means two things- it is boring for the U.S. side if they choose to fly in 1's and 2's, and it is boring for the Japanese side when they inevitably decide to come in in 3's and 4's at 20k.
No, I don't have a solution, I just felt like squeaking.
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Originally posted by Urchin
1v1 none of the Allied planes stand a chance against a A6M2. Period.
This means two things- it is boring for the U.S. side if they choose to fly in 1's and 2's, and it is boring for the Japanese side when they inevitably decide to come in in 3's and 4's at 20k.
No, I don't have a solution, I just felt like squeaking.
Heh heh. FWIW, I agree with you about the US planes being the whipping dogs of the nimble zeke. But that was true the last time we had this setup, and the interesting thing (well, I thought it was interesting) was the way in which it forced the sides to behave as they did in real life.
BUT....since we get to complain here....I wish someone would get rid of the frigging boats. Or take away their ack guns or something. I have observed that people are still sailing those fleets up next to enemy airbases, and just parking them there. When this is done to an allied base it is enough to drive people out of the CT (cough cough), because the wildcat and p40 have no hope if they can't get a bit of alt.
- oldman
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Fleets parked offshore are a pain in the bellybutton for both sides, once that AAA umbrella is in position.
The sooner somebody can implement offshore reefs capable of sinking the fleets the better it will be.
Then again asking HT to add minelayer capabilites to the PT boats or similar could work :)
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Mines! Capital idea old bean. I hope HT is listening.
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Its ridiculous to have bases that can be shelled by offshore fleets and have no shore batteries at those fields. Last nite the Allies had a carrier fleet parked off of A30 blasting away at the field.
Meanwhile, you try and up a zero to get some a2a action going and all you get are guys going for endless headons, vulches and then run back to the freindly confines of their ack. You can't get on top of them because once you get to 5k the ship ack starts puffing all around you and the next thing you know you are back in the tower.
Even though I'm in an IJ squad and enjoyed this set up last time, this time I've gotten so frustrated by it that I have gone back to the MA.
Sure, in a 1v1 fight the zero outperforms the allied planes, but I never see them 1v1 and when I do they RUN. Group tactics don't work that well for the zeros because they can't keep up with the allied planes. One little spurt from an F4F and your plane is screwed while I can light up a wildcat or P40 for days and it has no effect.
And one of the things that really pissed me off was after getting myself basically vulched 4 times I get on the 6 of an F4f, I get him set up and get ready to blast him and in comes daddog zooming over my shoulder shooting this guy down. Hey buddy, where the hell were you when I was getting tagteamed on the other side of the base. That's exactly when I want your help when I'm all alone on some guys 6 that I survived an HO with to get there and now he's helpless. That is precisely the moment I want you to come blazing in to help. Not when I'm turning and looping for my life trying to avoid ack and two nme fiters, when I've got the bastard helpless and alone. Thanx for nothing.
And while I'm naming names, Seahob, you are the worst of the worst of the HO ack runners. You spent the whole night grabbing over your ack and then zooming in over the field to get in a little HO. The second you're in any kind of jeopardy, its run back to my fleet ack.
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does this setup win some kinda award for the most complained about? :)
it does give some good ship to ship action when the fleets are close ... not much air to air though especially when a fleet is nearby
my suggestion is to lower the ack/shelling down to .00001 (or as low as you can set it) strength
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Yeah last night kinda sucked but hopefully today will be a better day
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The sooner somebody can implement offshore reefs capable of sinking the fleets the better it will be.
Dumb question... but couldn't reefs be done right now by adding a land tile that looks mostly like water? The islands could be ringed by them and the fleets forced to stay away.
These tiles would not need to be densly packed either. Wouldn't they only need to be spaced close enough so that fleets could not pass through? That was LVT's could make it in by either driving over the reef or by sail through and PT's could sail between.
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Nice idea, HFMudd!
Sabre
CT Staff
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C'mon, Naj. It's not uncommon for either side. There were 3(!) IJ fleets directly north of 40 earlier that night. One destroyer uber-aa patrol, one multi-cruiser (shell the base), one CV. The zekes upping from the CV either made suicide runs on the base as fast as they could over and over again or stayed within the ack umbrella to get hits on allied planes getting acked while trying to sink the fleet (for killscore).
As far as HOs are concerned ... when facing a plane that's co-alt or higher and can out-turn the heck outa me, I'm going to do it everytime the opportunity presents itself. Plain and simple. I believe most have adopted this as a valid practice. And it's not without precedent. Heck, once a zeke can latch onto the 6 of either an F4F or Pee-40b .. there is no shaking it. Not if the IJ pilot has any sort of reflexes or hand eye coordination at all. The only hope after that is to jink enough to reduce the hits until you can either make it to some sort of cover (and yes ... that does include ack) or some other plane can peel off the zeke.
I totally understand the frustration. I let frustration get the best of me the other night after three straight hours of offering up my P-40b as a kill sacrifice to the IJ in the CT. But, practically speaking, when it comes to HOs and ack you have a choice to make (since neither are going to go away on either side of the fight in our lifetime) - you can dodge the HO (either reposition - if possible - or sideslip past it if things are tight) ... you can break off and not follow a plane into ack (yes, he got away .. maybe he'll turn back ... maybe he's empty or shot up ... maybe he'll crash the plane that's barely flying and you'll get the kill).
And if I HO you or if I do whatever it takes to get away from you chewing up my plane, it's just me trying to kill your pilot and survive ... the premise of the game.
Kill stealing. What can I say? Yet one more thing you have no control over. Me either. I'll say this much ... if someone else pops the bad guy before I do .. good kill ... salute. The only time it ever bothered me some was when I've cut the tail or wing off someone and a "fellow" pilot decides to pump it full of rounds before it hits the ground. That's someone despirate for some points. Fortunately, I don't care about racking up points/score/rank ... besides ... like I've said about all the other stuff ... what's a guy to do?
Salute! Don't let the above drive you away. It's not something anyone can do anything about but you. Not the cm, not the other players .... just you (or I or whoever it happens to). And unfortunately ... sometimes all we can really do about it is take it.
Originally posted by najdorf
Its ridiculous to have bases that can be shelled by offshore fleets and have no shore batteries at those fields. Last nite the Allies had a carrier fleet parked off of A30 blasting away at the field.
Meanwhile, you try and up a zero to get some a2a action going and all you get are guys going for endless headons, vulches and then run back to the freindly confines of their ack. You can't get on top of them because once you get to 5k the ship ack starts puffing all around you and the next thing you know you are back in the tower.
Even though I'm in an IJ squad and enjoyed this set up last time, this time I've gotten so frustrated by it that I have gone back to the MA.
Sure, in a 1v1 fight the zero outperforms the allied planes, but I never see them 1v1 and when I do they RUN. Group tactics don't work that well for the zeros because they can't keep up with the allied planes. One little spurt from an F4F and your plane is screwed while I can light up a wildcat or P40 for days and it has no effect.
And one of the things that really pissed me off was after getting myself basically vulched 4 times I get on the 6 of an F4f, I get him set up and get ready to blast him and in comes daddog zooming over my shoulder shooting this guy down. Hey buddy, where the hell were you when I was getting tagteamed on the other side of the base. That's exactly when I want your help when I'm all alone on some guys 6 that I survived an HO with to get there and now he's helpless. That is precisely the moment I want you to come blazing in to help. Not when I'm turning and looping for my life trying to avoid ack and two nme fiters, when I've got the bastard helpless and alone. Thanx for nothing.
And while I'm naming names, Seahob, you are the worst of the worst of the HO ack runners. You spent the whole night grabbing over your ack and then zooming in over the field to get in a little HO. The second you're in any kind of jeopardy, its run back to my fleet ack.
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Arlo,
I understand the tactic of HOing in the allied planes and extending, but having the CV fleet that close to base makes the situation ridiculous. We couldn't get any alt because of the ship ack and the allies weren't coming out from that umbrella.
I don't vulch in the CT, I'll "cap" in the MA which requires vulching, but the numbers are low in the CT and no one was really trying to capture the base. I go into the CT for the good fites, a lot of times you can get better fites in the CT than you can in the MA.
My main problem is the way the setup allows this kind of crap on both sides. I know all you allies are HOing ack running weenies;), but the situation last nite just makes it too easy.
The real problem is with the fites, which become very low quality. Hey, I know I'm not the greatest pilit, and I don't really get that upset when someone beats me and they put my plane down. What bothers me is the way these fights evolve, it can't be real exciting for allies either, HO then run, repeat till no gas, no ammo,or dead.
And what bothers me most about the kill stealing is again, this wasn't an attempt to "help." This guy was arround when I was getting tagteamed and he didn't jump in then. No, he waits till I have this guy basically helpless and then zooms down and plugs him. While I'm not worried about my score, it's the enjoyment of setting a guy up and then downing him that I play for, so when someone does what daddog did, it robs me of some of the enjoyment I get from the game. It would be like you going into the kitchen and making a sandwich for yourself and have your roommate grab it off the counter and eat it for you.
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Trying to make special tiles in the TE seems like an awfully complex way to fix the problem. A simple solution is plain and easy to see--
Just make larger islands and keep the airfields somewhat inland.
I wouldn't complain about THIS particular terrain, since it was designed mostly for scenario and event use and not so much for arena use.
J_A_B
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are you sure you saw what you saw? Daddog doesn't just let people get beat up and swoop in for the easy kill. If he saw you in trouble he will come if he can, and sometimes will come even though it will get him killed. Maybe he saw you in trouble earlier but was dealing with other cons, and couldn't get over there rigth away.
At any rate, I will ask you kindly not to badmouth my CO in a public forum. If you have an issue with Daddog, take it up in private radio or ask him to email you.
and urchin, I thought you "retired" or something. :p
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I dont really think he was trying to upset you Naj, it was hard enough to get airborne with that F4F vulching us. I think he was just clearing us some space.
does this setup win some kinda award for the most complained about?
Its definitley a candidate:D
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Urchin will be flying in Operation Watchtower, I assume hes sharpening his skills.
Najdorf if you think its bad now then you aint been in a late war pac setup. The f4f is only faster below 5k (17 mph faster, but it easily out accellerates the a6m2). Imagine plane 30 -50mph faster then you. All you do is chase your tail while the bore and zzzzz'rs attempt aerial strafing gun passes, miss then run to ack to grab a 6k advantage to come bac and repeat.
Compared to those setups this one here is at relative parity. The p40b sux bellybutton so you cant really blame a guy for utilizing what little it has in terms of "strengths".
OH DD has always been a gentlemen :p
Follow Nifty's advice.........
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Originally posted by Urchin
1v1 none of the Allied planes stand a chance against a A6M2. Period.
This means two things- it is boring for the U.S. side if they choose to fly in 1's and 2's, and it is boring for the Japanese side when they inevitably decide to come in in 3's and 4's at 20k.
No, I don't have a solution, I just felt like squeaking.
Depends on how they fly. If you fly the Wildcat right it aint a bad plane against the Zeke, you simply cannot do low alt furballing 1 v 1. Guys who fly teh Thatch weave do quite well. In Burma guys were routinely landing 2-5 kills on Japanese planes in SBDs. Should we perk the SBD?
I have noticed the zeros seem to do OK at high altitude, was the early zeke a decent high-alt performer? I thought US Iron was decidedly better at elevation than the Zero?
I think this setup lends itself to 2 kinds of stupidity: 1, HOing allies. I see HOs from guys in 4-1s against planes that have no chance (Vals, Kates) that's lame. I mean, as Arlo says, perhaps some circumstance require it, but joust warrior under any and all circumstances? Joust warrior is widely regarded as "historically proper" but it really detracts from the CT when that is the only type of combat you see regardless of what is occurring. I fall down laughing when guys who HO complain about the vultch. If the Vultch is not a superior way to engage an enemy aircraft, which some claim the HO to be, then I simply don't know what they mean by "superior method of enemy engagement" when they play Lord La-tee-dah and act as if such explanations jive with the reality of a flight sim game (note the term game).
The second is the Uber Jap Bomber phenom where the fast Jap bombers essentially play Gunship and run over a base luring guys up to high alts where the heavily armed buffs eat the piddling Allied fighters up. This is assinine--Betty, Helen, Sally and Nell buffs (the twin engine mediums the Japanese had in the early going) would never pull that crap off.
Sakai
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you have it completely backwards Sakai.
The F4f is better down low. The zeke (a6m2) is better up high.
But the zeke is only relly good at 300mph, above the 350 or so the f4f can out manuver the a6m2. The problem is below 300 the f4f will accellerate much better then the a6m2 and at lo alts (under 5k) the f4f is 17 mph faster.
The F4F "flown" correctly should spend most of its time running and extending. Keeping the fight fast and above 350 is the best way to fly it.
But if your in an a6m2 it gets pretty boring chasing folks around.
The a6m2 guns are mostly effective inside side 250m. This presents a problem in that as long as an F4F keeps room underneath of him he can dive away should the a6m2 begin to get close. He then just extends away and comes back high.
The a6m2 is an energy fighter like the 109. Ideally you want to come into the fight with a moderate (2k) alt advantage and use short sprint dives to gain a guns solution or to force the f4f to bleed e in manuvering. Once hes slow then the a6m2 tears him up.
It doesnt take any skill or genious to figure this out. As long as the f4f keeps this in mind he stands a good chance of boring the a6m2 pilot to death.
The a6m2 will outclimb the f4f and the higher up you go the more manuverable the a6m2 is provided you manage your speed.
The a6m2 should never dive to evade but take advantage of its turning ability. Turning into the attacker in an attempt to trick him into a turn fight or bleeding his e. Any pilot who has flown any considerable time in flight sims wont fall for it.
But if he does the a6m2 owns.
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Dont quite understand this HO stuff, 2 planes converge they fly past with no damage they both turn into each other trying to get the advantage and oops here we are looking at each other eye to eye again. Now my experience has been does this guy intend to HO? Hmmm maybe I should turn away then he could have the advantage, no ill stay eye to eye with him and maybe he wont shoot, hmmm bad choice, most of the time Im in a ho situation and I win the ho the guy says, can you do anything but ho? Usually I say nothing but thinking to myself, why didnt you avoid the HO, and after all you were shooting at me. So if someone could give this dumb ole Army Paratrooper on what to do it would be appreciated, if not Im gonna ho ur as- being that Im a piss-poor pilot and cant give any advantage what soever to my adversary. Yes ive heard before some of the so called moves to avoid the ho but, what the hell let the other guy make em!
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Nifty,
I will admit that I don't know the exact location of daddog when I was getting beat up, although it was somewhere in the area and I know I got zero help.
I also know that when I was just about to get the guns solution on the wildcat, daddog came zooming over the top of me and shot the wildcat down. I was in no danger, I worked this guy to get him where he was and daddog flies in and pops him out of nowhere. We were the only 3 planes up in the area at the time.
Maybe he thought he was helping, I really don't see how he could think I needed it in that situation, but I don't need that kind of help.
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Originally posted by najdorf
Nifty,
I will admit that I don't know the exact location of daddog when I was getting beat up, although it was somewhere in the area and I know I got zero help.
When the friendly is just in within the icon range (6000yds) it takes about one minute to get into fight (provided that the fight don't move away from the plane, or the plane is not at lower alt, then it takes even longer). Even from 2000yds it can take 15-20 secs. This feels an eternity when you are in trouble. Many times i have seen friendly planes got shot down nearby as I was just unable to get there in time. Shooting down a plane doesn't require many seconds, ya know.
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HiJack, turning nose to nose to gain advantage results in front quarter shots. That is NOT a head on. A HO'er is one that comes in on the initial merge, tries his damnedest to shoot you in the face, extends out 2000+ yards, reverses and tries it again. No attempt is made to gain angles, or to decrease angle off tail.
Now going back to the constant front quarter passes that occur in flat turns, there are a couple of things you can do. First, you can take your turn out of plane by going into the vertical. Sometimes by doing so, you can roll your lift vector onto where the bandit will end up if he continues his flat turn. This can provide you with the opportunity for a safe snapshot (compared to the dangerous front quarter passes you've talked about) or to gain the angles advantage and work for the rear quarter shot. Another thing you can do is to switch the turn, if it's advantageous to do so.
Almost all turns in Aces High 1 v 1's seem to be nose to nose turns (you turn left, bandit turns right and you form one circle, and basically get a flat scissors in a stalemate.) The advantage in this turn is first to the plane that turns tighter (smaller turn radius.) Also, a plane with a roll-rate advantage can do well in the nose to nose, as you have to reverse the turn after the pass to continue nose to nose (and almost every AH adversary does this.) So what you can do is switch the turn to nose-to-tail by continuing the turn and not reversing it as your opponent is still doing (if he doesn't reverse either, then it's still nose-to-nose.) In an initial nose-to-tail the plane with the faster turn rate, not turn radius, will gain the advantage. By switching to a nose-to-tail from a nose-to-nose you gain an initial advantage by not having to reverse your turn. You will also increase the lateral separation, giving you more space to take advantage of your decreased angle off tail.
The best thing to do is go into the more advantageous turn immediately after the intial merge. You need to know your enemy's capabilities and have a good judge of his speed/E-state. If you enjoy an E-advantage+climb advantage at the merge, going vertical is good. If he goes with you, you'll be able to get on top of him and dictate the fight. If he doesn't, he's meat on the table. If the E-advantage is his and you both go vertical, he'll probably get the angles. If he doesn't, you can possibly gain angles on his flat turn. If you both go for flat turns, going nose-nose is preferred if you are slower, yet turn tighter. If you turn faster, yet not as tight, go nose-tail.
The real trick is to be able to do all of this without thinking consciously about it. That's something I can't do. ;) I gotta think, and it gets me killed more often than not.
Of course, all this is moot when there are more of them than there are of you. :p
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Originally posted by Batz
you have it completely backwards Sakai.
The F4f is better down low. The zeke (a6m2) is better up high.
The F4F "flown" correctly should spend most of its time running and extending. Keeping the fight fast and above 350 is the best way to fly it.
I think that's inaccurate. The F4F is faster down low, but not better. If it is down low it has only one trick as you note, running away. It simply cannot turn fight with a zeke at low speeds as you also note.
That is precsiely what I meant when I said "properly flwon" F4Fs--extend and hit again.
I didnot think historically that the zeke was a better perfomrer at alts of say 9-15k. I knew the later American planes were deadly at altitude.
Sakai
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Neither the A6M2 nor the early American planes were particularly stellar at high altitude (above 12k or so) but the Zero was at a definate advantage due to lower wing loading.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Neither the A6M2 nor the early American planes were particularly stellar at high altitude (above 12k or so) but the Zero was at a definate advantage due to lower wing loading.
Hmmmmm . . .thought the two stage supercharger that mase it perform a tad better at alt came online in the A6M3. Ours is the M2 no?
Sakai
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Neither the A6M2 or the F4F (or the P-40B) had turbo-supercharging that would allow the engine to give the same power up to 30,000 feet (or so). I'll have to check my books, but I believe the the P-40B had a single stage single speed supercharger that gave good performance up to 15,000 feet or so and then started to suck. The F4F-4 had a two-speed two-stage supercharger that was good up to around 18,000 before engine power really started to drop off. The A6M2 had a single-stage single-speed (I think) supercharger that started running out of steam at around 14,000 feet.
The F4F gave out more power than the Zeke until the F4F's supercharger ran out of steam, but the zeke still had lower powerloading (it was a lot lighter) and lower wingloading (again, it was lighter), thus giving it higher performance at altitudes where none of the planes were really performing their best. If I recall correctly, I read some pilot's accounts that said the F4F really started to wallow above 20,000 feet, while the A6M was good for about another 4,000 feet above that. The P-40B would be hard pressed to even climb that high, and it undoubtedly wouldn't give very good performance once it was up there.
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Thanks Nifty, so when after the initial merge you go nose to nose its really a front quarter shot, then why in the heck do some of these guys go, " is all you know HO?, learn how to fly" guess some have different ideas of what HO means! Really doesnt matter to me, I just try to kill the enemy plane however I can, but very rarely to I fire on the merge, unless of course he has cannons and I have 6 or 8 mgs that reach a little farther hehe! Thanks Nifty, and oh by the way Daddog is one of the nicest, fairest guys around, I met him at last years con and dont blame you for standing up for your CO
!
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The F4F is better lo, if an a6m2 comes in say 8k and your f4f is at 4k the a6m2 while diving to pursue will easily climb above 350 or at that speed the f4f can out turn it. The f4f can easily out accellerate the a6m2 and has 17 mph top speed advantage.
But the the F4Fs accelleration is key. If the the a6m2 bleeds e al the f4f has is a shallow dive and extend. Noty only does it have a higher top speed but its accelleration advantage allows it to reach that speed before the a6m2 gets even close. Out side 350m the a6m2 guns are weak.
The F4f can hardly pull a 2g turn at 20k with out losing alt. The a6m2 has a clear advantage above 15k.
Heres a pdf comparing the a6m2 to the f4f that Badboy did for midway.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/Info/Midway.pdf
The only thing that alt gives the f4f is room to dive away.
Why would ever wanna turn wirth an a6m2 at any alt?
Even if he close a shallow dive using the f4fs accelleration and high speed handling is enough to escape. The a6m2 doesnt have the spray n pray factor that 50 cal planes have.
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LOL ... if this keeps up the F4F will be banned from the CT for being too uber. ;)
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I know its hard for you to follow anything but the most simple discussions but the first line in this thread is
1v1 none of the Allied planes stand a chance against a A6M2. Period.
No where does anyone say the f4f is too good. As a matter of fact is such a pos that the only way it can do well is if it bores the a6m2 pilot to death or comes back with numbers. Its only advantage are its guns and its ability to dive and run.
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Wotan: {whining} The F4F is too faster and accelewates wike a bat outa hell. It can get away easy. Not unwike dee F4UuuuUUUuuuu! It's faster therefow uber. And it has fifty cawiber machineguns which is unfair. But we'll wet you swide with dis one becawse we can't vewy well ban awl of dee USN pwanes, can we?
Bwahahahahahaha
:D
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Thanks for proving my point. This thread starts at point A ends at point B but you still get lost.
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Wotan: {whines} I am soooo misunderstood!
:D
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Most of the A6M2s I see flown in AH (CT and events) are down on the deck trading front quarter shots with F4Fs. There is little or no use of the A6M2s better climb to dictate the terms, ***and no patience to break off if things go bad***. Of course, many F4F pilots are guilty of the same thing, and get killed on the deck in a slow turnfight.
Gotta get a kill....I just...gotta. R.I.P.
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HiJack, I don't see how anyone can call a turning fight that results in a nose to nose guns pass as a head on. If you're both low on energy, the flat turn is about all you've got left in the bag o' tricks. If you don't turn with the guy, you're going to give him the advantage. Don't pay attention to those claims of HO. The "jousters" are the ones that are not exhibiting any "ACM skill."
Besides, you can always just reply "well, it wouldn't have been a HO if you hadn't kept putting your nose on mine! I was just taking what you were giving me! ;)"
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And one of the things that really pissed me off was after getting myself basically vulched 4 times I get on the 6 of an F4f, I get him set up and get ready to blast him and in comes daddog zooming over my shoulder shooting this guy down. Hey buddy, where the hell were you when I was getting tagteamed on the other side of the base. That's exactly when I want your help when I'm all alone on some guys 6 that I survived an HO with to get there and now he's helpless. That is precisely the moment I want you to come blazing in to help. Not when I'm turning and looping for my life trying to avoid ack and two nme fiters, when I've got the bastard helpless and alone. Thanx for nothing.
Just read this thread. Najdorf, I don’t try to steal kills, but I do try to make 6 calls and help out when I can. I don’t recall that night in detail, but I do remember being vulched several times till I got up. After that I managed to bag some F4F’s. If I “stole” one from you it was not intentional and I apologize. After I tired of the fleet ack I found some spawn points for PT Boats and started sinking ships to help out the IJN trying to take off from the base.
I will admit that I don't know the exact location of daddog when I was getting beat up, although it was somewhere in the area and I know I got zero help.
As I said I was getting tagged myself quite a bit. You were not the only one getting tagged teamed. If I could have helped I would have.
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Daddog:
It was a bad situation and I was just PO'd in general. It was the culmination of several factors. Looking back, I wish I would have simply said something on the com channel instead of posting. I began the post simply out of frustration with the setup and then it kind of snoballed.
In any event, I appreciate your response and apologize about the overreaction.
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You will find I am a pretty reasonable sort. Wave me off and I will stay out of your way.
Nif, hijacker, Slash27, Batz, thanks! :)
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RGR that Nifty, as I am sure you know, anytime you kill some guys wether it be from the front or from anywhere they always have a reason why you got the better of them except that you were a little better than they were in that particular fight. Thanks for the info and I agree with you 100% on the front quarter shots, but i just love it when someone texts, " why dont you learn ACM" just after you have killed them, I always get a chuckle when they do that hehe! Just cant admit that you got the better of them, "wont mention any names just to keep things civil" thanks again for the reply just wanted to see if anyone else agreed with me about HOs (as some call them)