Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mora on April 08, 2003, 02:47:27 PM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/39070000/rm/_39070137_baghdad18_omaar_vi.ram
Probably old news...but really astonishing nevertheless.
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Originally posted by blitz
An apology would have been the minimum standart.
At least i wished to hear that there was an investigation goin on.
Regards Blitz
Blitz, your "apology" is in this video, and there *will* be an investigation.
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War is dangerous, there is no way around it. You make it sound like they targeted the reporters.
I'm sorry, (hey there's your apology) but if you go romping around a battle field crap happens. I hope they could tell by all the bullets flying around and the explosions that this was a dangerous place. If not we didn't need them in the gene pool anyway.
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Originally posted by medicboy
War is dangerous, there is no way around it. You make it sound like they targeted the reporters.
I didn't get that impression. It would just make sense that your forces would avoid this kind of things at all costs, shouldn't take too much intelligence efforts.
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What programm do i need to see this?
Regards Blitz
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Propaganda Goggles 2.1
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Propaganda Goggles 2.1
Is that your favorite channel, Saur?
Regards Blitz
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Actually my TV is usually on one of three channels:
History Channel
Speed
CNN
(Psst - I think you missed the jab)
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Actually my TV is usually on one of four channels:
Propaganda Goggles2.1
History Channel
Speed
CNN
(Psst - I think you missed the jab)
Sorry, Saur, last 3 are ok but first one is a bit odd :D
Regards Blitz
And don't forget : This is still an 'Agression War' on a sovereign country with violation of international law
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They came to Baghdad to see a war and we showed it to them.
What's the issue?
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Originally posted by Otto
They came to Baghdad to see a war and we showed it to them.
What's the issue?
Good work, you convinced them,finaly :D
Regards Blitz
And don't forget : This is still an 'Agression War' on a sovereign country with violation of international law
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hey blitz...why dont your country do something about it?
all talk...no action
btw...remind me of yoda you do.
learn english more you must
heheh:p
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Blitz, your "apology" is in this video, and there *will* be an investigation.
Better late than never :)
Regards Blitz
btw1: If we speak of Propaganda i would say this 'embbeded' reporter crap is similar in result as Propaganda Kompanie in WW2. And this result is not by accident or circumstances.
The difference is: In WW2 they were ordered what to report.
Today, the 'embeded' reporters work for news channels.
The news channels get their money out of the news, they sell.
If 'embbeded' reporters do report things, commanders don't like ( i don't mean security stuff), they will get kicked out or don't see anything interesting again. It's a more suptile way of censorship than in former times.
That means their employer will lose money and they will be kicked outa job. The 'embbeded' reporters knows that very well.
Government lernt a lot from Vietnam War.
'Embbeded Reporters' have nothing to do with Free Press.
They are part of a big propaganda maschine, if they like it or not.
btw2 : Reporters, who were not 'embbeded' were hindered by US forces all the time and that was not because of security, it was a plan to control media.
btw3:YOU may accept it as a part of your war but "Embbeded" reporters has absolutely nothing to do with Free Press. It's a big lie and ya know that.
The main reason for controlling of media is to avoid pictures of dead babies with bodyparts lost.
Pentagon wants to show a movie with the 6th US cavallery pulling their sabres and running through the dessert to help some settlers....
....BUT WITHOUT blood. As the audience doesn't like blood.
An action movie without any content, thrilling but no information.
Pentagon wants to fool us that a war is clean.
No more Vietnam pictures of tortured enemies, dead civilians or uncensored interviews.
These guys made their homework.
That is a dangerous threat to journalism in general and i hope it won't come down on your homeland as a bummerang to hit your civil rights in the future.
" Mc Charty" "Guatanamo Bay"
Regards Blitz
btw4: Your country is surving on the top of a monsterwave of pariotism, as it looks like.
Nothing bad of loving ones country but don't lose overview.
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Damned if you do, damned if you dont..
So blitz since you are against imbedded reporters, and you are likely against the way reporters were treated during the first gulf war - please enlighten us as to how you think reporters should gain physical access to the battlefield and report on the war.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Damned if you do, damned if you dont..
So blitz since you are against imbedded reporters, and you are likely against the way reporters were treated during the first gulf war - please enlighten us as to how you think reporters should gain physical access to the battlefield and report on the war.
I'm just the audience :)
Regards Blitz
And don't forget : This is still an 'Agression War' on a sovereign country with violation of international law
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blitz likes iraq TV, they say the US/UK are losing the war.
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I forgot, where those reporters waving Boom Mics and Video carmeras around from the balcony?
Does anyone think they look like RPG's?
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Originally posted by mora
I didn't get that impression. It would just make sense that your forces would avoid this kind of things at all costs, shouldn't take too much intelligence efforts.
At "all costs"? Hell no. If our troops are being fired upon it is 100% the reporters responsibility to get out of the way.
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Reportes in Combat..Ya..they have given /signed the waiver to die...F all of you who think otherwise..You are morons..
"Hey...Time out..I want a picture'...lmfao....
AND dammit Iron..i liked your old pic bettr...
FLY straight......Fly Level....ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
ummmmmmmm
Love
BiGB
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Originally posted by Otto
I forgot, where those reporters waving Boom Mics and Video carmeras around from the balcony?
Does anyone think they look like RPG's?
No - but I bet the tank commander saw the camera pointing out the window - thought it was a scope or pair of binoculors - noticed the incoming mortor fire and thought he was a spotter.
Boom.
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All the speculation here is pointless. None of you were there. Very few of you have served, even fewer have seen ANY combat outside of the theater spectaculars from hollywood. :rolleyes:
The only real fact here to consider is that the reporters are in a WAR ZONE. Not all iraqis are wearing uniforms. If a reporter wants to get up close to the front line he should not be surprised when the front line bites him in the prettythang. BTW in an urban combat setting the front lines gets REAL blurry.
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Well .... you can take the "East" out of Germany but you apparently can't take the "East" out of some of it's citizenry.
THE STASI
AND TERRORISM
A SWIFT U.S. REACTION
The U.S. government's verbal reaction to the massacre was immediate: President Ronald Reagan called Qaddafi a "flaky barbarian." The State Department charged that the East German government could have prevented the bombing. The U.S.
Ambassador to West Germany, Richard Burt, said radio intercepts by U.S. intelligence proved that the attackers had come from East Berlin.
Damage control became a matter of the highest priority for the East German government. On April 9, Wiegand received an unsigned top secret document from General Kratsch. The colonel surmised that the paper had originated with Honecker, the chief of state and party boss. It said:
Based on the unusually sharp political reaction of the USA toward the DDR and the USSR shortly before and after the attack in West Berlin, as well as the initial public announcements by the USA ambassador in Bonn, Richard Burt, it can be concluded that this incident will be used to strengthen the lies about terrorism. It must be expected that "evidence" will be produced.
Attempts by the USA to enlist their West European allies in a united front against Libya having failed, it appears now that the intention is to use the "West Berlin example" for a new effort. The activities of the imperialist media (film requests from ARD/ZDF [West German TV networks] and requests for interviews from Reuter [the British news agency] point to the preparation of a
major campaign to discredit the DDR and its socialist allies.
The document concluded that "further escalation must be expected" and therefore, that "possible action [on the part of the DDR] toward the Libyan side must be considered." In addition, DDR reaction, "especially toward the USA, must demonstrate that the relations between the DDR and third countries are its own
sovereign affair."
Honecker was correct in saying that the European countries had refused to join an economic embargo or any other action against Libya, as had been urged by various U.S. missions, including one headed by Deputy Secretary of State John C. Whitehead. They were undoubtedly influenced in that decision by their own economic ties with Libya. Italy was Libya's largest trading partner, with trade amounting to US$4.353 billion annually, followed by West Germany with US$2.881 billion. In total, the European Common Market imported Libyan oil and gas valued
at US$6.4 billion a year and exported US$3.8 billion worth of varied goods. There were 40,000 Europeans living in Libya at the time.
Wiegand realized that his country's leadership feared a severe American reaction to their coddling of terrorists. The colonel read on and was astounded that he was being ordered to "take necessary action against militant forces within the Libyan People's Bureau only after such action will no longer convey the
impression that it is a reaction to the demands of the USA."
Wiegand noted with satisfaction that Mielke had finally agreed that it was "urgently necessary to stop the misuse of diplomatic immunity by representatives of Arab embassies." Nevertheless, the schizophrenia of the East German communist leadership came to fore once more in this paragraph of the document: Considering
the fact that effective interstate relations commenced only at the beginning of 1986 but have already resulted in considerable economic advantages for the DDR, necessary political steps in connection with the LPB must be in the form of friendly and frank talks. Any impression that the DDR is giving the slightest consideration to American interests must be avoided. All necessary political steps toward the Libyans must be explained as DDR measures designed to guarantee the safety of the People's Bureau and to prevent anti-Libyan activities by the
imperialists.
Honecker's anger over the political fallout resulting from the policy that had made the bombing possible was perceptible. Yet, Wiegand noted, ambiguities remained in that policy. Wiegand interpreted the instructions as saying, "Go ahead and wash the bear, but don't get his fur wet." General Kratsch telephoned
him to ask whether he understood the situation, and before hanging up, he admonished Wiegand to follow instructions to the letter: "For heaven's sake, don't do anything that would make the Libyans think we are allying ourselves with the Americans," he told Wiegand. "Remember, the main enemy is the American
imperialists. They are attacking; Libya is not attacking the USA." Wiegand repeatedly heard Mielke say the same thing many times. Now Kratsch was using the Stasi chief's words verbatim.
The East German government had realized that it was being adversely affected by its alliance with extremist politics and terrorism, and the leadership was distressed. Facing the leadership, however, was the sacrosanct basic political and ideological position of solidarity in the "battle against imperialism and support of national liberation movements." This position did not provide the impetus to pursue consequent and clear actions to disassociate the government from dangerous entanglements.
It was in character, therefore, that Honecker would issue a statement on April 10 in which he condemned terrorism, and in a blatant attempt to shift blame, urged that West Berlin police and customs exercise proper border controls. He knew, of course, that the Western allies had never recognized his wall as a
legal border, and adhering to the right of free and unhindered access, would never check anyone who was crossing from the East.
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Originally posted by Maverick
BTW in an urban combat setting the front lines gets REAL blurry.
Where did you serve?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
No - but I bet the tank commander saw the camera pointing out the window - thought it was a scope or pair of binoculors - noticed the incoming mortor fire and thought he was a spotter.
Boom.
those big tripod mounted cameras poking over the balcony would look a hell of a lot like a coronet though a tanks optics from about a klick away.
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Swear to God I thought I saw a SLAAM fire against an A10 from that Hotel rooftop. Then saw an explosion between the Right Rudder and Right Engine of the A10 just as it passed out of view about 3k up.
In a seemingly unrelated video, saw a A10 grounded at base with severe shrapnel damage between Right rudder and Right Engine.
It fits the saddam profile, attack coalition forces from behind the cover of journalists. I would get "so far the hell out of that place" if I were any of those people. Funny thing is, these journalists seem hell bent for bloody violent death in pursuit of proffessional accolades. Little sympathy from me when they are on the enemy side of war.
As far as AlJezeera goes: That news outlet is inciting a race war where I DO NOT BELIEVE one exists, not in my mind at least. Aljezeera is getting extremely close to being a beligerant force in this conflict. I am not at all surprized to see them take some hits.
I wouldnt be surprized in the least if there WAS fire coming from that AJZ building in any event.
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btw, did any of you notice that the Iraqi government "minders" were not letting the journalists relocate from that hotel? Hmm, a few more counts for the Saddamburg Trials.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Swear to God I thought I saw a SLAAM fire against an A10 from that Hotel rooftop. Then saw an explosion between the Right Rudder and Right Engine of the A10 just as it passed out of view about 3k up.
I'm assuming that SLAAM = MANPAD?
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Doesn't take immense brainpower to figure out that large bulky camera poking over roof at tanks doesn't look 'friendly'.
Christ some Iraqi could've fire a pistol into the air and it would've been enough to return fire.
Journalists = Dumb fediddleers
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Doesn't take immense brainpower to figure out that large bulky camera poking over roof at tanks doesn't look 'friendly'.
Christ some Iraqi could've fire a pistol into the air and it would've been enough to return fire.
Journalists = Dumb fediddleers
Doesn't take too much brainpower to identify a few hotels either. Not being "anti-american" here, what ever that means..
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
No - but I bet the tank commander saw the camera pointing out the window - thought it was a scope or pair of binoculors - noticed the incoming mortor fire and thought he was a spotter.
Boom.
Boom three times a day on not embedded reporters, lol
The tanks have been there all night, they should knew about the palestine hotel.
Al Dhasira gave the GPS coordinates of their bureau in Bagdad to anerican forces before the war......
Regards Blitz
And don't forget : This is still an 'Agression War' on a sovereign country with violation of international law
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Blitz,
Help yourself (http://www.zeiss.de/de/ophtalmic/home.nsf/31005e52b2726c13c12566fe003b2601/61a1f347b8c30912c1256a4900344c7c?OpenDocument) :D
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Where did you serve?
1. Just Cause.
2. I was a street cop for my entire career as a Police Officer. Under fire more than once and didn't like it at any time.
As to the Hotel meaning anything. Just because it was a hotel doesn't mean fire couldn't have come from it. :rolleyes: Another thing to consider is that sounds like gunfire do echo in an urban setting. Determining the actual direction of fire is sometimes difficult.
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Originally posted by mora
Not being "anti-american" here, what ever that means..
anything you say against the US on these boards MEANS your anti-US.....
:p
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Originally posted by SLO
anything you say against the US on these boards MEANS your anti-US.....
:p
duh
anti
prep.
Opposed to; against.
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This war is undoubtedly the most well covered one to date. However, the content IS sanitized for US consumption. The lack of images of dead and dying people from all sides isn't a mistake, rather it's typical of our militarys control over the embedded reporters.
During Vietnam the reporters were able to get a lot of their images of dead and dying soldiers and citizens out to their news organizations much easier since the media for recording such images was film.
With the advances in electronic news gathering the previewing and forcing the distruction on questionable images has never been easier.
Is this happening now? I haven't any answers but the lack of those types of images tells me that, even though the embedded reporters have great access to the battlefield, their reporting IS regulated and the reporters are undoubtedly having to follow the guidelines set by the military. It is typical to place non disclosure constraints on news organizations when their presence is sanctioned and supported by the military.
This administration has some smart cookies in it, those who actualy had a hand in the war in SEA have learned about the power of the media and the ease to control it by making it appear that the embedded reporters have full access and the ability to report the news w/o government censorship....that isn't the case though.
Regarding the reporters killed....it's a war zone, they knew the risks, their loss is lamentable but in the end it was their decision to be there and their death was the result of that decision.