Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on April 09, 2003, 07:44:21 AM
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Reuters: Saddam's Rule Collapses; Looters Rampage (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=TFNU42XV5U2XOCRBAEKSFEY?type=topNews&storyID=2534661)
Saddam Hussein's rule collapsed in chaos in Baghdad on Wednesday as elated Iraqis welcomed U.S. forces while looters and gunmen ran wild.
As U.S. Marines rolled in from the east to a joyous reception on day 21 of the war, hundreds of people gutted official buildings, dragging off all they could carry, from air conditioners to flowers.
"People, if you only knew what this man did to Iraq," yelled an old man standing in the road, thrashing at a torn portrait of Saddam with his shoe. "He killed our youth, he killed millions."
CNN: CHEERS IN BAGHDAD (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/09/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html)
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- As residents on the outskirts of Baghdad took to the streets in celebration, the center of the Iraqi capital was relatively quiet Wednesday, a sharp contrast to previous days....
But in the Baghdad suburb of Saddam City, residents were in the streets, celebrating the apparent end of the Iraqi regime. A Shiite Muslim leader told a group of 400 to 500 people, "The tyrant of the world is finished, thanks to the coalition. Thank God for Iraq the victorious."
BBC: Saddam regime crumbles in Baghdad (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2930913.stm)
Jubilant Iraqis have greeted arriving marines in the Shia stronghold of Saddam City, the BBC's Andrew Gilligan in Baghdad reports.
Fox: Saddam Loses Control of Baghdad; Looting Rampant (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83580,00.html)
Jubilant crowds swarmed into the streets of the Iraqi capital -- dancing, looting and defacing images of Saddam as U.S. commanders declared that his regime's rule over the capital had ended.
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Marine tanks rolled into the commercial center, greeted by people cheering and waving white flags.
Civilians gestured to the Americans with V-for-victory signs. "We were nearly mobbed by people trying to shake our hands," said Maj. Andy Milburn of the 7th Marines.
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I suggest we send "Task Force Blitz", a crack unit of this BBS' posters immediately.
These Iraqis must be told they are NOT happy before it's too late!.
Quick... no time to lose! Enlist in Task Force Blitz today!
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Quite low for you, Toad.
Insinuating anti-war was pro-Saddam now, eh ?
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You were against this war Toad. Let's not lose sight of that as we jump up and down and point fingers. :p
Has anyone doubted that the Iraqi people were opressed by a nutcase dictator, and would love a shot at freedom? I don't think I've seen anyone argue that Saddam was a well-liked tyrant popular with his captives...err... citizens.
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well... I won't believe it until boroda or am read translate it for me from pravda.... that is if us imperialists haven't murdered all their journalists yet.
lazs
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Originally posted by Dowding
Has anyone doubted that the Iraqi people were opressed by a nutcase dictator, and would love a shot at freedom?
Not to my knowledge, but many people here seem to naively think that if the UN had asked really really nicely that their lot in life would have changed.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Has anyone doubted that the Iraqi people were opressed by a nutcase dictator, and would love a shot at freedom? I don't think I've seen anyone argue that Saddam was a well-liked tyrant popular with his captives...err... citizens.
No one doubted that, but alot of you doubted it was any of our business...there are a few million Iraqi's who are glad it was our business...we'll point you guys out once everything calms down;)
Toad was against the US going in without UN sanctions like myself, quite different from anti-war my young friend. Once we *did* go in, Toad, like myself, was 100% behind the Commander in Chief in his decision.
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What was the casus belli when all this started? What gave rise to Res. 1441? Comparitively, what was NOT mentioned until long after the whole crisis had started?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Once we *did* go in, Toad, like myself, was 100% behind the Commander in Chief in his decision.
Gee, i can already see Rip waving US flag on some Baghdad rubble ;). What a hero !
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Toad was against the US going in without UN sanctions like myself, quite different from anti-war my young friend. Once we *did* go in, Toad, like myself, was 100% behind the Commander in Chief in his decision.
I wouldn't want to speak for others with such authority, but I think you'll find that the lack of UN mandate was my sticking point, old timer.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Gee, i can already see Rip waving US flag on some Baghdad rubble ;). What a hero !
I know it sucks being wrong all the time Hristo, the dark humor you portray is evidence...go ahead, I feel your pain. ;)
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Must be great to be a pulled-gun-upon-twice cheerleading patriot, like you Rip.
Can you post some more of your war images, please ?
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You know.. I see alot of indiv's here saying they are against the war but realise Saddam was/is a butcher.
I just dont get it... your against a war that served to free a people oppressed? Oh sure..there are a 1000 gooddamn geopolitical reasons to say why the US really waged it...but hell look at the BASE result.
I quess I'm just too stupid to see the "big" picture. I just like the little one of a guy holding his kid and dancing in streets cause he knows his child has a chance to grow up w/some choices maybe that he didnt enjoy most of his.
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A quick review:
I did oppose this invasion of Iraq by US forces without UN SC sanction.
I did write my representatives stating that. Repeatedly.
The ONLY reason to go was to enforce UN SC 1441, destroying Iraq's WMD capabiliites. This has not, as yet, been validated.
As Rip pointed out, however, once it starts the best thing is for it to be over quickly. I did indeed support that.
HOWEVER........
it is also pretty clear, with the rest of what is coming to light, that the Iraqi people were terribly and brutally oppressed and appear to be quite glad to be rid of Hussein's regime. I believe, as days pass, more and more Iraqis show that to be true beyond question.
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I guess it depends whether you think this solution of one problem, has merely spawned many more, Batdog.
This new found morality about the plight of the Iraqi masses is touching, but I didn't see many threads about them until the US/UK camp switched tack to make the war for disarmament a moral issue.
There is no such thing as an ethical foreign policy - just the illusion of one born out of political expedience.
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Blame where blame is due.
All of this could have easily been avoided if Hussein had complied with the UN SC resolutions. Right up front, not lame minimal attempts and dodges 12 years into it.
The freedom of the Iraqi people is an incredibly valuable side benefit to THEM of their leader's fatal miscalculations.
The "morality" issue could never be raised as causus belli. You know that. Look to the slaughter in Africa that continues. Look at the slaughter in Kosovo that took and illegal act by NATO to stop. Face facts; the UN will never interfere/intervene in purely internal genocide.
Nonetheless, the freedom the Iraqis are now celebrating IS a tangible and priceless side benefit of this action to enforce 1441.
And as I said, as yet that concern has not yet been validated.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Must be great to be a pulled-gun-upon-twice cheerleading patriot, like you Rip.
Can you post some more of your war images, please ?
4 times, son.
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right now i don't think the people of bagdad give a *** **** for the UN.
interview with iraq man in bagdad::"marine good, i feel safe, i see happy in people"
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The freedom of the Iraqi people is an incredibly valuable side benefit to THEM of their leader's fatal miscalculations.
Agreed.
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Originally posted by Toad
Reuters: Saddam's Rule Collapses; Looters Rampage (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=TFNU42XV5U2XOCRBAEKSFEY?type=topNews&storyID=2534661)
CNN: CHEERS IN BAGHDAD (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/09/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html)
BBC: Saddam regime crumbles in Baghdad (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2930913.stm)
Fox: Saddam Loses Control of Baghdad; Looting Rampant (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83580,00.html)
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I suggest we send "Task Force Blitz", a crack unit of this BBS' posters immediately.
These Iraqis must be told they are NOT happy before it's too late!.
Quick... no time to lose! Enlist in Task Force Blitz today!
Don't go nuts, Saur :D
This bloody war is a political crime still.
The way Bush & CO set up this war at all costs, under violation of international law is priceless.
We are back to, "I'm stronger than you and therefore i can do what i like" , now. WTG :(
The political dammage is immense and that's the fault of Mr. Bush and Company . Shame on them :(
Regards Blitz
And don't forget : This is still an 'Agression War' on a sovereign country with violation of international law
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NOTE* for them of us what don't speak latin, "causus belli" means "cause for war"
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Blitz,
Your selfish greed of being against a political group or person to not support the freedom of an oppressed people. Thats what you;re all about,..."ME,ME, ME" You hate seeing a political group in office in the US you don't support, and will go as far as support a suppressive dictator to strip the rights and lives of his own people in the name of YOUR SELFISHNESS. Your (and the lefts) anti-war stance is Anti-bush at the cost of your political beliefs. That's mighty self centered, and very sad. We'll make sure these free Iraqi's know who didn't support our presence over there during the next few years...don't worry.
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Originally posted by blitz
And don't forget : This is still an 'Agression War' on a sovereign country with violation of international law
Time to answer this one.
Only the security counsel can determine when there is a war of agression or a threat to international peace and security.
Check out the UN charter Chapter VII, art 39.
No security counsel resolution on the conflict = no violation of international law.
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blitz , you forgot the to say the liberators of iraq are wearing "nazi like helmuts"
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Blitz,
Your selfish greed of being against a political group or person to not support the freedom of an oppressed people. Thats what you;re all about,..."ME,ME, ME" You hate seeing a political group in office in the US you don't support, and will go as far as support a suppressive dictator to strip the rights and lives of his own people in the name of YOUR SELFISHNESS. Your (and the lefts) anti-war stance is Anti-bush at the cost of your political beliefs. That's mighty self centered, and very sad. We'll make sure these free Iraqi's know who didn't support our presence over there during the next few years...don't worry.
Yeah, you're right, i'm all alone .
Only 75% of all nations, the Pope, Dixie Chicks and Michael Moore are with me :(
Regards Blitz
btw To fight for law doesn't mean to support crime, old man.
Better learn to distinguish.
And don't forget : This is still an 'Agression War' on a sovereign country with violation of international law
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Rip-a-drip-a-snort, don't count the times when the Missus has fired after you because you left the Santa-produced pr0n DVD in the DVD player :D
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Originally posted by Hristo
Quite low for you, Toad.
Insinuating anti-war was pro-Saddam now, eh ?
In the *real* world anti-war was exactly pro-Saddam. If you think he was gonna become Mr. Nice Guy or leave power simply because of the hand wringing at the UN then you are either naive in the extreme or you are a lying bastard with ulterior motives.
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Originally posted by blitz
Don't go nuts, Saur :D
This bloody war is a political crime still.
The way Bush & CO set up this war at all costs, under violation of international law is priceless.
Um, I didnt post that. BTW - what "international law" are we refering to here? Blitz, as a German you should be well aware of what is, and is not a "violation of international law."
Im a stupid American and I can see the difference.
1.) 1939 Fanatical regime invading a soveriegn state without warning. Occupation of that state, murder of its civilians, and establishment of death camps to clease the land of undesirables.
2.) 2003 Soveriegn state invading a soveriegn state to remove a fanatical regime that murders its own civilians, extablishes death camps for its own civilians, and uses chemical and biological weapons to cleanse he land of undesirables.
Get real Blitz.
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I think you are a witness to history, the start of a mindset change
hope the statue doesn't fall on anyone :)
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Wasn't that great seeing those Iraqis dancing on that fallen statue. Have to admit, I danced a little myself, wasn't a pretty sight.
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The war has turned out pretty much as I thought it would - based on how it began 12 years ago. I think it was the right thing to do, based purely on Saddam's violation of the Ts and Cs of the ceasefire in 1991. I regard it as unfinished business, now being attended to.
The UN has let the side down. It was the UN that forced a premature halt to the war in 1991 - a time when the Republican Guard could have been finished off because they were all out there in the desert - instead of being holed up and intermingled with civilians. Saddam would have been a much easier target then. It was the UN that caused the coalition to abandon the Iraqis in 1991, leaving many to face torture/execution while the allies packed their bags and went home. It was the UN which caused the prevarication that gave Saddam time to consolidate, and make the task for our armed forces more difficult by having to work in increasingly hot weather. And now the UN wants to run the show - when they were against a coalition presence in Iraq to begin with.
:confused::rolleyes:
Mr. Toad, I think we are in agreement that there are no surprises regarding the Iraqi population's reaction to Saddam's demise. I saw the film of the man whacking Saddam's picture with his shoe. Did you see the last part in which another Iraqi man approached, and spat upon it?
Blitz! A while ago I said we'd be able to talk about it at the con, and that it might be all over by then. I wasn't too far off the mark. Hehe, see you tomorrow! Don't forget your beer chest! :D:)
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Hehe, I was humming "Ding Dong the Witch Is Dead" from "Wizard of Oz". Btw Al Jazeera was also carrying those images of the crowd dancing on the fallen statue.
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It seems to be going very well..
Better then I hoped and much better then I feared.
The US/UK soldiers showed that our generation knows how to get it done too.
I doubt anyone is happier about that then I am.
The precedent is a bad one though. And the peace will be a very very interesting one.
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(http://www.anythingweather.com/images/us-flag-flying.jpg) (http://www.myethnicpride.com/fl1060.JPG)
(http://www.e-i.org/australia-flag.jpg) (http://www.cvc.org/christmas/poland/PFlag.gif)
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Originally posted by blitz
Yeah, you're right, i'm all alone .
Only 75% of all nations, the Pope, Dixie Chicks and Michael Moore are with me :(
Regards Blitz
btw To fight for law doesn't mean to support crime, old man.
Better learn to distinguish.
And don't forget : This is still an 'Agression War' on a sovereign country with violation of international law
Wow, you're with the Pope (helped cover up thousands of cases of child molestation) Natalie Mains of the Dixie Chicks ( a handsomehunk bimbo who, now that she finds out how unpopular her views are, doesn't have the guts to stand behind them), and Michael Moore (who makes his living making movies full of lies, and claiming that they are documenteries). Nice group of friends. You are known by those you choose to associate with. Oh, and I have yet to see any proof that 75% of the countries of the world are against the war. Last I heard, there were over 50 countries in the coalition and that was two weeks ago.
No, this is not a war of aggression, and you saying it a thousand times doesn't make it so.
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To the US, British, Australian and Polish Troopers that made it happen:
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
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Shakespeare is cool and that is perhaps my favourite speech of any character.
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Originally posted by Hristo
Gee, i can already see Rip waving US flag on some Baghdad rubble ;). What a hero !
Best I can tell, the Iraqi citizens are doing enough waving of the U.S. flag in Baghdad for everyone. Stomping on Saddam's statue and riding its head through the streets beating it with a shoe makes a statement too.
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WTG, the rest can "Leck uns"
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After finding out who the fine folks who are helping us are,
I think I'll consider something in DPM or AUSCAM for my next camo
purchase... :)
mauser
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As well as the more obvious images of the toppling of Saddam - literally, in the case of the statues - this one is the one I knew we'd see, and I knew that last August. I'm sure many other people did.
(http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/iraqi.jpg)
I also loved the TV pictures of the American armoured personnel carrier, assisting the Iraqis in the tearing down of one of those statues. Did you see it? The vehicle was almost completely obscured by the Iraqis who had climbed aboard. WTG, and big to the American servicemen for letting them ride on it.
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Originally posted by beet1e
The war has turned out pretty much as I thought it would - based on how it began 12 years ago. I think it was the right thing to do, based purely on Saddam's violation of the Ts and Cs of the ceasefire in 1991. I regard it as unfinished business, now being attended to.
The UN has let the side down. It was the UN that forced a premature halt to the war in 1991 - a time when the Republican Guard could have been finished off because they were all out there in the desert - instead of being holed up and intermingled with civilians. Saddam would have been a much easier target then. It was the UN that caused the coalition to abandon the Iraqis in 1991, leaving many to face torture/execution while the allies packed their bags and went home. It was the UN which caused the prevarication that gave Saddam time to consolidate, and make the task for our armed forces more difficult by having to work in increasingly hot weather. And now the UN wants to run the show - when they were against a coalition presence in Iraq to begin with.
:confused::rolleyes:
Mr. Toad, I think we are in agreement that there are no surprises regarding the Iraqi population's reaction to Saddam's demise. I saw the film of the man whacking Saddam's picture with his shoe. Did you see the last part in which another Iraqi man approached, and spat upon it?
Blitz! A while ago I said we'd be able to talk about it at the con, and that it might be all over by then. I wasn't too far off the mark. Hehe, see you tomorrow! Don't forget your beer chest! :D:)
WOW :eek:
This is the first time that I can unequivically say that I am in total agreement with beet1e.
I've heard that stranger things have happened but I don't believe it ;)
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Originally posted by Drunky
WOW :eek:
This is the first time that I can unequivically say that I am in total agreement with beet1e.
I've heard that stranger things have happened but I don't
believe it ;)
Agreed.
Well said Beet1e.
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Originally posted by beet1e
The war has turned out pretty much as I thought it would - based on how it began 12 years ago. I think it was the right thing to do, based purely on Saddam's violation of the Ts and Cs of the ceasefire in 1991. I regard it as unfinished business, now being attended to.
The UN has let the side down. It was the UN that forced a premature halt to the war in 1991 - a time when the Republican Guard could have been finished off because they were all out there in the desert - instead of being holed up and intermingled with civilians. Saddam would have been a much easier target then. It was the UN that caused the coalition to abandon the Iraqis in 1991, leaving many to face torture/execution while the allies packed their bags and went home. It was the UN which caused the prevarication that gave Saddam time to consolidate, and make the task for our armed forces more difficult by having to work in increasingly hot weather. And now the UN wants to run the show - when they were against a coalition presence in Iraq to begin with.
:confused::rolleyes:
Mr. Toad, I think we are in agreement that there are no surprises regarding the Iraqi population's reaction to Saddam's demise. I saw the film of the man whacking Saddam's picture with his shoe. Did you see the last part in which another Iraqi man approached, and spat upon it?
Blitz! A while ago I said we'd be able to talk about it at the con, and that it might be all over by then. I wasn't too far off the mark. Hehe, see you tomorrow! Don't forget your beer chest! :D:)
Damn, beetle, no way for me to join the con :(
Would be fine by me if ya pick a friend of yours and take him to the con. If already paid but i'm at war with a cafe i have to built in no time. 120 qm bambus parquett, 16 desks, 6 cuboards, 13 doors and a lot more stuff. That's life ;-)
Finally i would have made a pacifist outa ya :)
Have fun, we'll see next near :)
Regards Blitz
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"And gentlemen in Germany now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Iraq's Liberation day."
:D
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Beetle, well written and I agree with you. I want to expand on something because the more I learn, the more I really dislike the UN.
The UN has let the side down. It was the UN that forced a premature halt to the war in 1991
Well, it was really a situation of Peace For Oil for the UN so they were happy to let the miserable situation continue in Iraq. The UN got 2.2% off the top for the Oil For Food program which filled their coffers with billions of dollars. And initially, that money was placed into French banks (we all know just how dirty the French are in all this.) And the whole program was so poorly managed that it was a direct cause for the deaths of thousands due to starvation and lack of medicines in Iraq (quoted to being more dead than those that died in the atomic bomb blasts in Japan.) And supposed to be only a temporary situation, there appeared to be no end in sight of the fleecing of Iraq by the UN and the UN using Saddam as a puppet/conduit for profit. What's interesting, those who oppose this war are VIPs in the UN and who shipped the greatest percentage of illegal weapons by far to Iraq. That fact needs a scrutinizing eye! Yeah, this sounds like a really good organization... fleece Iraq, take your share of money, violate the UN anyway by sending weapons to a ruthless dictator, and let thousands starve with no end in sight to the madness. Well, after 12-years, that end is very near. The UN is a joke, especially with Iraq and Libya heading up the positions they do...:rolleyes:
I don't see the newly freed Iraqi people exclaiming "UN no. 1!"
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I think the minesweeper and sub Denmark sent were instrumental for the newfound freedom of Iraqis.
Remember that, Yanks; we need to IT-contracts, dammit!