Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on April 09, 2003, 09:24:06 AM
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Could it be because the Russians supplied the most arms to Saddam in the last 30 years? Naaa! ;)
(http://home.earthlink.net/~ripsnort/Humor/saddamgraph.jpg)
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maybe they could pull the 'oops, didn't know that building was the Chinese embassy' trick again.
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If it is true, then Russia and the UN will determine their own relevance. If Russia turns him over to the UN, and the UN turns him over to the coalition, then they have SOME legitimacy. If any of that DOES NOT happen, well, then we'll all know the truth, won't we?
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No, he needs to be turned over to the new Iraqi government once it's up and running.
The Coalition doesn't need him in the least.
Although, we could probably hold him at Gitmo for them until they're ready for the trial.
:D
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Denmark, 1%
Dinnae even know we manufactured weapons.
Maybe he bought our old stuff.
Cool.
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Why should the Coalition get their hands on him?
He should be dealt with by the Iraqi people, ideally. Like Ceacesceau (too many vowels, I know). If not them, then the UN via the World Court (like Milosevic).
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I doubt it will be a smart move for us to give him shelter.
BTW, there are only "technical personnel" left in Russian embassy. I doubt it will be immune to intervents, especially after they shot an Ambassador's evacuation convoy, wounding 4 men and refusing to give medical aid, so our diplomats had to hurry to a hospital in a town controlled by Iraqi forces.
"Coalition" officials lost themselves in lies about that accident. They told all posible things: they didn't know, they knew and it were Iraqi who shot at diplomats (yeah, from M-16s!), there were no "coalition" forces there at all (!!!) etc. Convoy was stopped several times by intervent patrols, that tried to search (!!!!) diplomat's vehicles.
Maybe some trigger-happy baseball player had enough education to think that Russian flag is Serbian?...
BTW, there were reports about a Predator drone who followed the convoy. Yes, they didn't know...
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Originally posted by Boroda
I doubt it will be a smart move for us to give him shelter.
BTW, there are only "technical personnel" left in Russian embassy. I doubt it will be immune to intervents, especially after they shot an Ambassador's evacuation convoy, wounding 4 men and refusing to give medical aid, so our diplomats had to hurry to a hospital in a town controlled by Iraqi forces.
"Coalition" officials lost themselves in lies about that accident. They told all posible things: they didn't know, they knew and it were Iraqi who shot at diplomats (yeah, from M-16s!), there were no "coalition" forces there at all (!!!) etc. Convoy was stopped several times by intervent patrols, that tried to search (!!!!) diplomat's vehicles.
Maybe some trigger-happy baseball player had enough education to think that Russian flag is Serbian?...
BTW, there were reports about a Predator drone who followed the convoy. Yes, they didn't know...
I love your propaganda.
I've yet to see ballistic reports on the bullets.
Can you provide links other than to pravda to back up your claims, or are these just more of your blatant lies?
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The only reason the coalition should get their hands on him is so that they can turn him over to the Iraqi people. Russia, France, Germany, and the UN had NOTHING at all to do with Saddam's downfall. They should have nothing at all to do with handing Saddam over to whoever THEY think he should be handed over to. It isn't THEIR decision. They neither freed the Iraqi people from Saddam, nor were they suffering under his cruel oppression. The people of Iraq, and the soldiers of the coalition paid for this with their BLOOD. The UN and the coalition of cowards did NOTHING. Except try with all their efforts to stop it.
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The Iraqi people should get him for sure. Think I heard O'Reilly or one of his guests say "they have an anthill with his name on it."
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Originally posted by Boroda
I doubt it will be a smart move for us to give him shelter.
BTW, there are only "technical personnel" left in Russian embassy. I doubt it will be immune to intervents, especially after they shot an Ambassador's evacuation convoy, wounding 4 men and refusing to give medical aid, so our diplomats had to hurry to a hospital in a town controlled by Iraqi forces.
"Coalition" officials lost themselves in lies about that accident. They told all posible things: they didn't know, they knew and it were Iraqi who shot at diplomats (yeah, from M-16s!), there were no "coalition" forces there at all (!!!) etc. Convoy was stopped several times by intervent patrols, that tried to search (!!!!) diplomat's vehicles.
Maybe some trigger-happy baseball player had enough education to think that Russian flag is Serbian?...
BTW, there were reports about a Predator drone who followed the convoy. Yes, they didn't know...
Hehe...have another shot there bud. Your almost as funny as the Iraqi Info Minister... heh
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Originally posted by Boroda
I doubt it will be a smart move for us to give him shelter.
Nothing personal, but I haven't seen them make too many smart moves to begin with.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Nothing personal, but I haven't seen them make too many smart moves to begin with.
Not involving into a criminal agressive war was a really smart move.
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Originally posted by Martlet
I love your propaganda.
I've yet to see ballistic reports on the bullets.
Can you provide links other than to pravda to back up your claims, or are these just more of your blatant lies?
You mean that Russian Embassy evacuation convoy was not attacked by intervent forces?
You mean the guy who got a .223REM NATO 5.56mm bullet in his belly was shot by someone else?! Probably shot himself, yeah! "Never trust that russkies"!
Martlet, did you have some problems with Russians in your childhood years? Looks like psychiatric problem to me... I am not a specialist, so maybe you should see your doctor?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Not involving into a criminal agressive war was a really smart move.
Go to Baghdad, and tell those Marines in Paradise Square they are criminals, and they should go home. Tell them real loud (with a bullhorn maybe), in English and Arabic. I don't think the Marines could save you from the Iraqi people. Wave a Russian flag while you're at it.
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They are there helping the enemy kill our forces, you expect the red carpet treatment?
BTW, could iraqi soldiers fire at the convoy with captured U.S. weapons knowing the results?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Not involving into a criminal agressive war was a really smart move.
Selling lots of weapons to a crazy dictator...THAT is what this thread is about. Please comment on the stats.
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""criminal agressive war"""", ask the people of baghdad what they think of the "war", i see no burning american flags in baghdad.
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Originally posted by Boroda
You mean that Russian Embassy evacuation convoy was not attacked by intervent forces?
You mean the guy who got a .223REM NATO 5.56mm bullet in his belly was shot by someone else?! Probably shot himself, yeah! "Never trust that russkies"!
Martlet, did you have some problems with Russians in your childhood years? Looks like psychiatric problem to me... I am not a specialist, so maybe you should see your doctor?
Still waiting for those links......
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lets play 'what if' Boroda....
now lets say this IRAQI soldier had the bright idea to get the Russians attention and NOT to permit them to leave.....so that the iraqis could have 1 more chip too play....it is known that Russia is good friends with Saddam...right?....ya can't deny that.
what if an IRAQI soldier who had a gun 'made in the US. with bullets 'made in the US'....
this said soldier wants to create a riff between Russia and the US....but wait a minute.....thinks the soldier...I'll shot the Diplomat with my 'made in the US Gun'....and voila.
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Originally posted by Boroda
(yeah, from M-16s!)
Originally posted by Boroda
You mean the guy who got a .223REM NATO 5.56mm bullet in his belly was shot by someone else?!
Doesn't the M-16 fire a 7.62?
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Originally posted by Preon1
Doesn't the M-16 fire a 7.62?
nope, 5.56
the old m60 fired a 7.62
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<>
how do you know it was a remmington?, how do you know it was 5.56mm?, how do you know it was not a russian bullet?
the more you talk , the more stupid you sound.
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Boroda aren't you tired of riding that horse yet??
most of the things you belived early on in this war have been proven false, but you still insist on believing this stuff..
wow
I understand you have been fed propoganda out your ears for most of your life, but you seem so intelligent and learned and still you can't see past your own beliefs.
Notice how other people learn and change their views over time when presented with the facts?
one might take a clue from that...instead of stubbornly adhering to their old beliefs.
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Wow. If that chart is correct, Poland shipped more arms to Iraq than the USA. Heck, Brazil shipped more! What do they have to ship? Beads and feather hats or something?
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brazil makes guns , good guns too.
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Originally posted by john9001
<>
how do you know it was a remmington?, how do you know it was 5.56mm?, how do you know it was not a russian bullet?
the more you talk , the more stupid you sound.
Iraqi surgeon took that bullet from his belly. Several other bullets were extracted from the cars and bus.
So, I guess this episode was not reported by your media? Yeah, free press. Who could expect anything else?
What links!? It's on TV here. Damn, the 2nd channel reporter who was in that convoy and reported on sat phone was scared as toejam. He said it could be no mistake.
Don't you have an idea why mrs. Rice flew to Moscow immediately after that episode?
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If the Russians were at that time helping Saddam to escape then I wish they'd killed 'em all.
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Originally posted by Puke
Wow. If that chart is correct, Poland shipped more arms to Iraq than the USA. Heck, Brazil shipped more! What do they have to ship? Beads and feather hats or something?
Poland sold them most of their T-72s.
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Oh well, suck it up
Should I put in a smiley....................... .....
Na!
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Originally posted by Boroda
Iraqi surgeon took that bullet from his belly. Several other bullets were extracted from the cars and bus.
So, I guess this episode was not reported by your media? Yeah, free press. Who could expect anything else?
What links!? It's on TV here. Damn, the 2nd channel reporter who was in that convoy and reported on sat phone was scared as toejam. He said it could be no mistake.
Don't you have an idea why mrs. Rice flew to Moscow immediately after that episode?
Rice flew to Moscow immediately after the event because Putrid's cronies started blaming the US, and at the time, it was unsure if we played a part in it.
Since then, it seems doubtful that we did. The reason you don't have any links to prove otherwise, is there aren't any.
All your garbage posts have been disproved, so now you must resort to making up stuff.
Nice try, though.
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Originally posted by SLO
lets play 'what if' Boroda....
now lets say this IRAQI soldier had the bright idea to get the Russians attention and NOT to permit them to leave.....so that the iraqis could have 1 more chip too play....it is known that Russia is good friends with Saddam...right?....ya can't deny that.
what if an IRAQI soldier who had a gun 'made in the US. with bullets 'made in the US'....
this said soldier wants to create a riff between Russia and the US....but wait a minute.....thinks the soldier...I'll shot the Diplomat with my 'made in the US Gun'....and voila.
Our journalists are stupid, but they can tell a US tank/BMP from a Soviet one.
Most of journalism departments in our unversities have military education, so that guys are at least Sr. Lts.
So you want to say that Iraqis used a company of captured US armour to make a provocation? :D
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Originally posted by Martlet
Rice flew to Moscow immediately after the event because Putrid's cronies started blaming the US, and at the time, it was unsure if we played a part in it.
Since then, it seems doubtful that we did. The reason you don't have any links to prove otherwise, is there aren't any.
All your garbage posts have been disproved, so now you must resort to making up stuff.
Nice try, though.
Keep following the Party line, comrade. What they tell you on TV can't be a lie. They can't lie. Like wolves can't eat meat.
It's so damn hard to admit that brave "coalition" forces shoot at everything that is moving towards them, eh?
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Pavel-
Do me a favor, and take the "With respect" out of your signature.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Why should the Coalition get their hands on him?
He should be dealt with by the Iraqi people, ideally. Like Ceacesceau (too many vowels, I know). If not them, then the UN via the World Court (like Milosevic).
Here, here Dowding.
I don't know I would turn him loose in Iraq again, but at the very least he could go before the Hague...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Keep following the Party line, comrade.
Spoken by Boroda...the words he lives by.
SOB
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Originally posted by SOB
Spoken by Boroda...the words he lives by.
SOB
That's his standard line when he's caught with a handful of crap.
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Originally posted by Curval
Selling lots of weapons to a crazy dictator...THAT is what this thread is about. Please comment on the stats.
Well, first of all I don't know the source for this graph. With the comments it has - it must be another "amerika uber alles" crap.
Even if it is true - so what? USSR didn't have the right to sell our weapons? It's capitalist free market, if US weapons couldn't compete with ours - it's your problem. Don't you want to say US companies didn't want to sell as many weapons as possible?
Again, Saddam has become an "evil dictator" after he nationalised Iraqi oil industry. Later he became a good boy again, when he started a war against "evil" Iran, that kicked US prettythang and had to be punished... Even before that he was a good boy for executing all Iraqi communists, wasn't he?
Also, are you sure this graphs show weapon eales only? USSR supplied them with power stations, drilling equipment, cars, trucks, etc.
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Originally posted by Boroda
if US weapons couldn't compete with ours - it's your problem.
Ya, we saw how our weapons couldn't compete.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Poland sold them most of their T-72s.
Boroda, you know what is really interesting about that?
Poland, unlike your country, accepted responsibility for their country's part in creating this mess, and sent troops to help clean up the mess the world helped create. They offered public support for it too. Amazing isn't it? Poland has more guts, and takes more responsibility in the world than the former Soviet Union. Funny that a country that your country cruelly dominated for years is able to accept its responsibility (and the former Soviet Union probably had PLENTY to do with having Poland sell tanks to Saddam) and yet your country not only fails to accept its share of that responsibility but in fact continues to provide aid and comfort to the Saddam regime of Iraq.
Why don't you try to explain THAT to the world? Why don't you question what YOUR country has done to cause this problem, and indeed to prevent the resolution of the problem? Well, Boroda, the world is waiting. I'm sure Poland's economy is not going to be getting any help from their actions in Iraq. So don't whine about having to support Saddam for the sake of the Russian economy. The U.S. has spent $75 BILLION dollars, and budgeted that much more, so far, who knows what the U.K. has spent, not to mention Australia, Spain, Poland, Kuwait, and a host of other countries. Maybe if Russia will finally stand up and do the right thing, their economy won't collapse. Maybe all that will happen is that some of your corrupt dirtbag leftovers from the communist regime will just go broke. Why don't you and Russia do the right thing for once, and stun the rest of the world? You know, like tell the truth, take responsibility for your actions, things like that.
Oh, and by the way, why don't you tell everyone about the fact that Russia has a 5.45mm/.214" caliber military rifle (possibly easy to mistake for a 5.56mm/.223", especially by a doctor who likely isn't a ballistics expert)? They probably sent a few to Iraq too, since they developed it when they committed a war of aggression against Afghanistan. Or would you choke on the truth about that too?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Pavel-
Do me a favor, and take the "With respect" out of your signature.
Again I have to say that it's a figure of speech. A translation of standard Russian phrase ending the letter. Like "Sincerely yours". BTW, we have exact translation of that one.
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Boroda,
So Western media lies, but Russian media doesn't? Doesn't that seem a little bit wierd to you?
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Originally posted by Mathman
So Western media lies, but Russian media doesn't? Doesn't that seem a little bit wierd to you?
Oh, no! It seems that one more source (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2792.htm) of independent, unbiased reporting has ceased reporting after repeatedly proving itself wrong about the conduct and prognosis of the war effort.
Guess we'll just have to stick with Pravda (http://english.pravda.ru/) for the truth from now on.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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LOL
Speaking of Pravda, I just ran across this (http://english.pravda.ru/war/2003/04/09/45846.html) article there. I could have sworn I was reading the Onion, complete with a photograph of the nuclear catastrophe!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Al Jeerez reporting that Saddam is in Russian Embassy
No problem. I'm sure we just happen to have those GPS coordinates laying around somewhere.
:cool:
Wab
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Originally posted by Martlet
That's his standard line when he's caught with a handful of crap.
Hmm. How to translate "Moy dorogoy nedalekiy drug!"? :rolleyes:
Martlet, US forces fired at diplomatic convoy. They wounded 4 persons who are immune according to Viena convention. It is a fact.
Seing you repeating what your "news sources" feed you and trying to behave as if bloody Russians shot themselves clearly shows that you are keeping with Party line.
Are you simply not allowed to say anythng else? I see no other reasons for absolutely abandoning common sence.
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Originally posted by Mathman
Boroda,
So Western media lies, but Russian media doesn't? Doesn't that seem a little bit wierd to you?
All media lies. It's their way to earn money.
do you want to tell me that the episode I described didn't happen!?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hmm. How to translate "Moy dorogoy nedalekiy drug!"? :rolleyes:
Martlet, US forces fired at diplomatic convoy. They wounded 4 persons who are immune according to Viena convention. It is a fact.
Seing you repeating what your "news sources" feed you and trying to behave as if bloody Russians shot themselves clearly shows that you are keeping with Party line.
Are you simply not allowed to say anythng else? I see no other reasons for absolutely abandoning common sence.
I have asked you specifically for evidence of this. You have none.
Odd that half of the crap you spew is without evidence, yet the rest of the world is wrong.
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OK, so...
1. All media lies.
2. You heard from the media (that you can't provide a link for) that Russian diplomats were shot by US troops.
Dim-witted commie conclusion: US Troops fired willfully on Russian diplomats.
Makes perfect sense. Thanks.
SOB
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
Boroda aren't you tired of riding that horse yet??
most of the things you belived early on in this war have been proven false, but you still insist on believing this stuff..
wow
I understand you have been fed propoganda out your ears for most of your life, but you seem so intelligent and learned and still you can't see past your own beliefs.
Notice how other people learn and change their views over time when presented with the facts?
one might take a clue from that...instead of stubbornly adhering to their old beliefs.
.....IM STILL WAITING FOR THE TRUTH IF SADDAM HAS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!! All I see on T.V. is mask and RPGs. C'mon thats not a WMD.
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i'm confused by the russian convoy, why would the russians make a dangerous run across the desert for syria instead of asking for a escort by the americans, the US would have even flown them out if they had asked.
what were the russians trying to hide?
and why syria and not jordan or iran (iran is closer)?
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Oh, no! It seems that one more source (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2792.htm) of independent, unbiased reporting has ceased reporting after repeatedly proving itself wrong about the conduct and prognosis of the war effort.
Guess we'll just have to stick with Pravda (http://english.pravda.ru/) for the truth from now on.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Well, Ramzaj reports were very interesting, and didn't contain obvious lies like "coalition" reports. Just remember how they captured Umm Quasr 6 or 7 times and "captured" all the 51st division. Having a source of information from other side is always good, especially if it isn't obvious propaganda like official Iraqi sources.
About pravda.ru: they don't have anything common with "Pravda", the official Communist party newspaper.
About your link in next message: what's so funny there? The nuclear waste facility is dangerous, and it's no joke...
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Tell me Baroda is not basing the validity of an article on an Iraqi Doctor's assesment of a bullet he pullied out of a Russian diplomat. Please. Seems the doc had two options: "Its an American bullet" or "Ooops, looks like its one of ours".
MiniD
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So you say that all media lies, but you heard a media report and believe it as the gospel truth? Sounds like clear thinking to me. Sorry to doubt you Boroda.
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Originally posted by john9001
i'm confused by the russian convoy, why would the russians make a dangerous run across the desert for syria instead of asking for a escort by the americans, the US would have even flown them out if they had asked.
what were the russians trying to hide?
and why syria and not jordan or iran (iran is closer)?
Russians informed "coalition" command about their route. They were guaranteed they will have a secure passage. I doubt they could have asked for helping to evacuate them by air - you know, it's dangerous to land a chopper in Baghdad, they fall down there every day.
What they were trying to hide? I don't know, but what they COULD hide? A brand new Apache shot down from a bb-gun?
Why Syria - it's obvious, Jordan is controlled by US forces, and Syria is still neutral and will not let any stupid sergeant search diplomatic stuff. Iran - I doubt it's closer then Syria if you want to get to Russian diplomatic mission and a safe airport.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Tell me Baroda is not basing the validity of an article on an Iraqi Doctor's assesment of a bullet he pullied out of a Russian diplomat. Please. Seems the doc had two options: "Its an American bullet" or "Ooops, looks like its one of ours".
MiniD
ManyD, there are many other bullets stuck in cars and buses. Don't try to look as if you don't understand...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Russians informed "coalition" command about their route. They were guaranteed they will have a secure passage. I doubt they could have asked for helping to evacuate them by air - you know, it's dangerous to land a chopper in Baghdad, they fall down there every day.
What they were trying to hide? I don't know, but what they COULD hide? A brand new Apache shot down from a bb-gun?
Why Syria - it's obvious, Jordan is controlled by US forces, and Syria is still neutral and will not let any stupid sergeant search diplomatic stuff. Iran - I doubt it's closer then Syria if you want to get to Russian diplomatic mission and a safe airport.
I finally got the truth.
Iraqis, angry that the Russians sold them all of those garbage weapons, decided to seek their revenge.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well, Ramzaj reports were very interesting, and didn't contain obvious lies like "coalition" reports. Just remember how they captured Umm Quasr 6 or 7 times and "captured" all the 51st division. Having a source of information from other side is always good, especially if it isn't obvious propaganda like official Iraqi sources.
[/B]
You mistakenly assume that such events were lost on Western media when they most certainly were not. There were plenty of articles noting the fierceness of Iraqi paramilitary resistence in certain cities, and the Washington Post had a long piece about coalition troops under fire in An-Nasiriya. This material appears outside of CENTCOM sources.
Ramzaj suffered from a huge credibility problem. One day, they reported 50 Americans killed in one ambush, and another three units lost somewhere else. When it became apparant that these numbers were completely out of sync with the official numbers of coalition dead, they tried to cover their butts by stating (on 4/1/03):
"The official coalition losses are, to put it mildly, 'falling behind' the actual figures. The 57 dead acknowledged by the coalition command reflect losses as of the morning of March 26. This information was provided to a BBC correspondent by one of the top medical officials at a field hospital in Al Kuwait during a confidential conversation. 'We have standing orders to acknowledge only those fatalities that have been delivered to the hospital, identified and prepared to be sent back home. The identification process and the required standard embalming takes some time – occasionally up to several days. But only the command knows how many casualties we sustained today and you will learn about it in about three days…'"
And yet here we are, far more than three days later without any indication of the massive numbers of coalition dead indicated in the reports. Just how long does it take to embalm someone anyway? This smells like horsecrap to me.
About pravda.ru: they don't have anything common with "Pravda", the official Communist party newspaper.
[/B]
Could've fooled me.
About your link in next message: what's so funny there? The nuclear waste facility is dangerous, and it's no joke...
Oh, gosh, I don't know... maybe the picture of a massive nuclear explosion and the headline "Nuclear Blast Near Baghdad" indicating something that happened rather than something that could happen?
Also the fact that the article has nothing at all to do with nuclear explosions could have something to do with it. I doubt that a Tomahawk missile would initiate a nuclear reaction that would set off some massive nuclear blast even if it did smack into a mountain full of uranium.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Boroda
ManyD, there are many other bullets stuck in cars and buses. Don't try to look as if you don't understand...
He wasn't trying to look like he didn't understand. He was sarcastically pointing out that you are full of crap
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Originally posted by Boroda
. I doubt they could have asked for helping to evacuate them by air - you know, it's dangerous to land a chopper in Baghdad, they fall down there every day.
A brand new Apache shot down from a bb-gun?
Simple needless comments like these guarantee that you will never be taken seriously on this BBS, Borada.
You can make your point, or attempt to, without doing your best to insult the United States and it's military at every turn.
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Borada say: Your media lies! My media is truth incarnate! Always has been that way. Always will. With respect. Comrade Dufus.
So there!
Links? Sources? We don' need no steenkin' links or sources!
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Originally posted by Martlet
I have asked you specifically for evidence of this. You have none.
Odd that half of the crap you spew is without evidence, yet the rest of the world is wrong.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/06/iraq/main548005.shtml
It's a Western "politically correct" version.
I just used google to find it.
I can provide you with dozens of links in Russian, you think it should help?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Russians informed "coalition" command about their route. They were guaranteed they will have a secure passage. I doubt they could have asked for helping to evacuate them by air - you know, it's dangerous to land a chopper in Baghdad, they fall down there every day.
What they were trying to hide? I don't know, but what they COULD hide? A brand new Apache shot down from a bb-gun?
Why Syria - it's obvious, Jordan is controlled by US forces, and Syria is still neutral and will not let any stupid sergeant search diplomatic stuff. Iran - I doubt it's closer then Syria if you want to get to Russian diplomatic mission and a safe airport.
You have PROOF that the Russians informed the coalition of their route and the time of their passage? Oh, and once they got out of Baghdad, they could have asked for and gotten air evacuation. And choppers DON'T go down every day, despite the fact that YOU happen to be hoping and wishing they would. And since the U.S. has pretty much had their way in the air in Iraq, had the Russians requested safe and secure transit and air cover, there is little doubt it would have been provided. Of course, I'm sure you don't believe the Russians could have gotten a secure line with the U.S. and given the JSTAR or AWAC planes their coordinates to make sure they were safe.
Regarding the Apache, it's kind of a smoking hole in the ground, and was the same day it went down. Try again. Oh, and show us the BB gun.
The U.S. military would not search diplomatic pouches or property, they are not nearly so stupid and arrogant as some of the Russian soldiers you've had the "priviledge" to know. Jordan, by the way, is NOT controlled by the U.S., get better information Boroda.
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Originally posted by Boroda
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/06/iraq/main548005.shtml
It's a Western "politically correct" version.
I just used google to find it.
I can provide you with dozens of links in Russian, you think it should help?
Nice link, particularly where it says:
It was unclear whether U.S. or Iraqi forces were responsible for the attack Sunday
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Ramzaj suffered from a huge credibility problem. One day, they reported 50 Americans killed in one ambush, and another three units lost somewhere else. When it became apparant that these numbers were completely out of sync with the official numbers of coalition dead, they tried to cover their butts by stating (on 4/1/03):
"The official coalition losses are, to put it mildly, 'falling behind' the actual figures. The 57 dead acknowledged by the coalition command reflect losses as of the morning of March 26. This information was provided to a BBC correspondent by one of the top medical officials at a field hospital in Al Kuwait during a confidential conversation. 'We have standing orders to acknowledge only those fatalities that have been delivered to the hospital, identified and prepared to be sent back home. The identification process and the required standard embalming takes some time – occasionally up to several days. But only the command knows how many casualties we sustained today and you will learn about it in about three days…'"
And yet here we are, far more than three days later without any indication of the massive numbers of coalition dead indicated in the reports. Just how long does it take to embalm someone anyway? This smells like horsecrap to me.
Well, I think you have some ideas on how US deals with casuality numbers. I don't know about soldiers body count, but aircraft combat losses are minimised by different tricks. For example: when the AC is shot down and falls down on friendly territory it's not a combat loss...
I doubt that real losses are as high as Ramzaj wrote, but there still can be some surprises. So far Russian milhistory enthusiasts at http://www.vif2.ru make their own counts, and they are only a little more then official numbers.
Ramzaj's "reports" were a great attempt to show the war from the other side, a nice information warfare move. Believe me, many people from all over the world believe him rather then Western media, and it's a serious victory over agressors.
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Oh, gosh, I don't know... maybe the picture of a massive nuclear explosion and the headline "Nuclear Blast Near Baghdad" indicating something that happened rather than something that could happen?
Also the fact that the article has nothing at all to do with nuclear explosions could have something to do with it. I doubt that a Tomahawk missile would initiate a nuclear reaction that would set off some massive nuclear blast even if it did smack into a mountain full of uranium.
You have enough yellow press in the US too. Journalists are mostly uneducated persons with great ego, and they can speak aboutt things they don't understand at all. The picture of a blast and a title are standard attractors used in second-rate newspapers. BTW, the article itself is almost believable. They speak about a Chernobyl-like accident, not about a nuclear explosion.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You have PROOF that the Russians informed the coalition of their route and the time of their passage?
Do you think Russian diplomats are idiots to leave a sieged city without informing intervents?
"Coalition" forces admitted they were informed. But later they said they weren't. And then again admitted.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Oh, and once they got out of Baghdad, they could have asked for and gotten air evacuation. And choppers DON'T go down every day, despite the fact that YOU happen to be hoping and wishing they would.
I doubt they could afford taking a ride on an American chopper. Safer and more reliable to take their own cars. And probably Syria will not let US ACs to enter it's airspace, even can open fire att hem.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And since the U.S. has pretty much had their way in the air in Iraq, had the Russians requested safe and secure transit and air cover, there is little doubt it would have been provided. Of course, I'm sure you don't believe the Russians could have gotten a secure line with the U.S. and given the JSTAR or AWAC planes their coordinates to make sure they were safe.
Well, I simply don't believe they could even think of asking for such assistance. Just because it's not a proper thing to do. Especially when they can inform US command and go by themselves, not looking like cowards.
BTW, looking at the hysteria on this board, and knowing that public here is mostly better educated and more intelligent then average - I myself could be very cautious about asking for assistance.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The U.S. military would not search diplomatic pouches or property, they are not nearly so stupid and arrogant as some of the Russian soldiers you've had the "priviledge" to know. Jordan, by the way, is NOT controlled by the U.S., get better information Boroda.
JFYI: I am from a military family, in fact I am the first "civilian" in 3 generations. So don't you tell me about stupid and arrogant Russian soldiers. My Grandfather was a cavalry Lieb-Dragoon officer in WWI, volunteered after graduating from Warsaw Univercity. My Father is a retired colonel of engineering service, Doctor of Technical science and a professor.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Nice link, particularly where it says:
I doubt that they will give you a complete picture with a complete Russian point of view. For them it's unclear.
How about links in Russian? Are you ready to read them? I can provide you with all kinds of views on that accident, from pro-Western to absolutely politically-incorrect anti-american paranoid crap from commies. I hope you understand (I still hope!) that this accidend gor much more coverage here then in your "free press".
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Originally posted by Boroda
I doubt that they will give you a complete picture with a complete Russian point of view. For them it's unclear.
How about links in Russian? Are you ready to read them? I can provide you with all kinds of views on that accident, from pro-Western to absolutely politically-incorrect anti-american paranoid crap from commies. I hope you understand (I still hope!) that this accidend gor much more coverage here then in your "free press".
It was reported in our "free press" and given the amount of attention it deserved. Which is to say not a lot considering the other events taking place.
Why do you suppose Russia may have given Saddam sanctuary? Possibly to keep him quiet about any illegal trade conducted during the sanctions? Or maybe they hope to reinstall him once his loyalists have regained control.
I suspect Russia will remain secretive about his presence if they do in fact have him. And, if that's the case he'll likely never be heard from again once it's clear that Iraq will never take him back.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well, I think you have some ideas on how US deals with casuality numbers. I don't know about soldiers body count, but aircraft combat losses are minimised by different tricks. For example: when the AC is shot down and falls down on friendly territory it's not a combat loss...
[/B]
Most reports I've seen list total coalition fatalities and casualties without regard to their causes. This number currently stands just above 100 deaths. That means that classifying those killed in a helicopter crash as non-combat losses doesn't matter, because they're still counted among the total war dead.
I do know from talking to a friend (and fellow AHer) who's stationed in Germany providing medical attention to injured coalition soldiers that the casuality figures provided by CENTCOM appear accurate regardless of their causes. This would run entirely counter to Ramzaj's claims.
Ramzaj's "reports" were a great attempt to show the war from the other side, a nice information warfare move. Believe me, many people from all over the world believe him rather then Western media, and it's a serious victory over agressors.
[/B]
So believing obvious lies is a serious victory over aggressors? Clue me in to how that one works.
You have enough yellow press in the US too.
[/B]
Certainly. The trick is to triangulate news coverage by utilizing numerous sources. There are many excellent news outlets in America and the West that do not deserve your blanket dismissal simply because what they report runs counter to your expectations.
BTW, the article itself is almost believable. They speak about a Chernobyl-like accident, not about a nuclear explosion.
Except, of course, for the picture of a nuclear explosion and a misleading headline that suggests otherwise. I also find it unlikely that Iraq has that much enriched uranium just sitting around. Unless, of course, somebody sold it to them in violation of UN sanctions?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Boroda
Do you think Russian diplomats are idiots to leave a sieged city without informing intervents?
Do you REALLY want me to answer that?
"Coalition" forces admitted they were informed. But later they said they weren't. And then again admitted.
[/B]
According to you and your government.
I doubt they could afford taking a ride on an American chopper. Safer and more reliable to take their own cars. And probably Syria will not let US ACs to enter it's airspace, even can open fire att hem.
[/B]
Evidently, their cars were NOT safer and more reliable. Nuff said. Who said they HAD to go to Syria? And I doubt Syria would be so stupid as to fire on U.S. aircraft.
Well, I simply don't believe they could even think of asking for such assistance. Just because it's not a proper thing to do. Especially when they can inform US command and go by themselves, not looking like cowards.
[/B]
No one would assume a diplomat was a coward for asking for safe conduct and escort during a military conflict. It IS the proper thing to do.
BTW, looking at the hysteria on this board, and knowing that public here is mostly better educated and more intelligent then average - I myself could be very cautious about asking for assistance.
[/B]
The only hysteria on this board is yours. I'd say you are indeed correct, the public here does appear to be better informed and educated than you do. The fact that you would not ask for safe conduct and escort in the middle of a military conflict, especially when there have been so many incidents of one side using human shields and masquerading as civilians says a lot.
JFYI: I am from a military family, in fact I am the first "civilian" in 3 generations. So don't you tell me about stupid and arrogant Russian soldiers. My Grandfather was a cavalry Lieb-Dragoon officer in WWI, volunteered after graduating from Warsaw Univercity. My Father is a retired colonel of engineering service, Doctor of Technical science and a professor. [/B]
For YOUR edification my family has a long history of military service as well, both past and present. If you would prefer that no one insult the Russian military, perhaps YOU should have the common sense to keep your mouth shut instead of saying "some stupid sargeant" would attempt to search a Russian diplomatic pouch. In otherwords, if you don't want to be insulted, STFU and keep your insults to yourself, and you won't get insulted. If you cannot discuss the issues without insulting others, don't get all upset when someone takes exception to your insults and returns the favor.
By the way, how about you answer my previous post regarding why Poland can do the right thing and help clean up the mess in Iraq, but Russia can't? Or is that won't? Or can you not provide the rest of the world with an honest and factual response without embarassing yourself and your country?
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i don't know what your govt told you , but Chernobyl was not a nuclear explosion.
the cheap russian reactor overheated and blew up the containment building made of inferior russian concret.
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Gotta love these headlines
BRITS: SADDAM SURVIVED
CIA: SADDAM DEAD
Russians: Not at Embassy...
http://www.drudgereport.com
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From Boroda's link:
While this is not the entire article it is indicative of what happens in war.
The Russian convoy was fired upon as it headed out of Baghdad toward the Syrian border, injuring at least four. A journalist in the convoy said it was caught in crossfire while passing Iraqi positions near the city's outskirts.
Later in the article they say the convoy was flying a Russian flag. Well sometimes you can't help but fire at the wrong time. Maybe some pre-planned mission was about to kick off when the russians drove out between the two positions. Hell its happened in war before why can't it happen again.
So Boroda go back to pirating WB on FreeHost and leave this group alone.
With Respect,
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Originally posted by AKIron
Why do you suppose Russia may have given Saddam sanctuary? Possibly to keep him quiet about any illegal trade conducted during the sanctions? Or maybe they hope to reinstall him once his loyalists have regained control.
I suspect Russia will remain secretive about his presence if they do in fact have him. And, if that's the case he'll likely never be heard from again once it's clear that Iraq will never take him back.
Russia will never give Hussein any kind of shelter. At least I hope so.
In current time we have a certain degree of idiotism in politics. I am 100% sure our commies will shout out loud that we have to protect Saddam from "evil imperialists", forgetting that he murdered all Iraqi Communists in mid-70s. But I think that our "Kremlin dreamer" has at least some common sence.
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Hey Boroda, you sure you haven't been to the United States before? (http://www.yakov.com/default.html)
(http://john_baber.tripod.com/yakov/yakov.gif)
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Originally posted by Mathman
Hey Boroda, you sure you haven't been to the United States before? (http://www.yakov.com/default.html)
(http://john_baber.tripod.com/yakov/yakov.gif)
Read my posts carefully, please.
I have been to the US in 1989, when Evil Communist Regime sent me there as an exchange student.
BTW, the guy on that page looks like anyone but Russian. a Jew? An Arab? A Caucasian? (I mean from Caucasus, Georgian, Armenian or Chechen)
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Boroda I think is just pissed because he is from a former world power that is just a mere 3rd world developing country now. You spew so much Russian propoganda BS & anti-American stuff it is beyond funny.
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:mad:AHEM!!!:mad:
did coalition forces iraq found AT LEAST 1 CHEMICAL/BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS (WofMDs)?????????? All i see on TV or on newspaper is that iraqis have coalition uniforms and and gas mask
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
:mad:AHEM!!!:mad:
did coalition forces iraq found AT LEAST 1 CHEMICAL/BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS (WofMDs)?????????? All i see on TV or on newspaper is that iraqis have coalition uniforms and and gas mask
It's possible they found much more than "1". The find is being evaluated as we "speak". Don't you watch Fox News?
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we haven't found the rest of our POW's yet either.
why don't you wait until we actually finish the job there before you start up again.
Originally posted by Ike 2K#
:mad:AHEM!!!:mad:
did coalition forces iraq found AT LEAST 1 CHEMICAL/BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS (WofMDs)?????????? All i see on TV or on newspaper is that iraqis have coalition uniforms and and gas mask
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"Poland, unlike your country, accepted responsibility for their country's part in creating this mess, and sent troops to help clean up the mess the world helped create"
Hmph, Poland and Romania too, would sell their own Grandmothers for some US $ . A couple of countrys are in deep sh*t, need money and Bank loans very fast or the old cominust regimes will stand like a Phoenix from the ashes up. And they will do anything (even selling old tanks to the Iraq or selling their troops to the Americans)
A fact is that in a war the truth is the first victim.
Maybe one day we will know who shot in the Russian convoy and wounded 4 people. But like everything else it will be misanderstood from one side and praised from the other side (so boring...)
And all of you , who are arguing who got the bigger is forgotin the main thing. Have you seen the pictures from the Iraqis Hospitals? No water, no electricity, no medicals. The pictures from the streets of Baghdad? From Basra? And what is in the citys we don't know?
The real war is happening in the refugee camps, in overcrowded Hospitals, and in a heart of a Mother who do not know how to get some water for her children.(Ever been without water a couple of days?)
The rest is Hollywood.
sailor
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Wow, guys, that's funny! I see you expect Boroda to say "yeah, USA is the most peace-loving, democratic and freedom-giving country in the world! So let'em shoot our diplomats at sight! Cuz that is made in the sense of obliterating the weapons of mass destruction!" Silly! I hate Saddam as much as I hate this war, but I do not agree with injuring our diplomats either, and I do not care where on the Earth has that happened, and I want good and thouroughtfull explanations, how it has happened. Imagine US diplomats injured by Russian crossfire somewhere on the world? That would've immediately brought us to the brink of war!
With all written, I think that was an accident. To stupid to be a planned action.
That's first. Second. I want to say, that if Saddam is hidding in any of Russian embassies I would personally protest against it, so would do the great many of fellow Russians here.. Because this man is a real danger to the world stability (IMHO).
Third, I do not agree that a country, driven by any means should start a WAR (just imagine that, a WAR) against a country without an international approve to do that, and even than I wolud think twice about it. I do not beleive that Saddam has got any weapons of mass-destruction (still remember, where it all starts?), which he could effectively hide from the International inspections. May be he was trying to produce them, but so did many countries in the world, why not attack, for example, China?
Fourth
Originally posted by Ike 2K# did coalition forces iraq found AT LEAST 1 CHEMICAL/BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS (WofMDs)?????????? All i see on TV or on newspaper is that iraqis have coalition uniforms and and gas mask
I don't think they will find any, because there was nothing. Otherways inspections would've found them.
From my point of view the war is going around the Iraqii oil and it has nothing to do woth the weapons of mass destruction. USA has to, as all the others countries has to, always keep the forward motion, developing of the economy. They made their bet on the e-commerce idea, but it proved to have not so a big deal as was expected. So USA needs somthing more to keep the US-dollar the best currency in the world, so they decided to get the grasp on the easy-flowing Iraqii oil.
Just take a look at the Euro/USD rate. USD was and is falling. But I bet $100 that it will dramaticaly change with the first US oil-tanker shipping out of the port. I do not blame USA on that - that's life, you have to be on the top - otherways u'r looser. And that's great, I'm not against it, this will keep us from a huge world-economy crisis!
So they will even construct somethnig maybe, to make the WMD-theory look more... ehh.. truthfull, but everybody, smarter than an wooddonut will know inside - that it is a bull****
All above stated, is, clearly, my HO.
Originally posted by john9001
i don't know what your govt told you , but Chernobyl was not a nuclear explosion.
the cheap russian reactor overheated and blew up the containment building made of inferior russian concret.
Here comes an atomic-scientist to say his word! ;) He knows, how much does our reactors cost and how good our concrette is. ;) Silly! :)
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Someone pointed out this post to me as being of interest and he was correct so much that I had to register to reply.
This thread is about arms sales to Iraq and is based upon an "information chart". Only one person on this thread questioned the accuracy of the chart and he was then subjected to ridicule.
Read the name at the bottom of the chart in small print, for those of you with bad eyesight:
"Nifty Chart by/ Jol graphique par: The dissident frogman [http://thedissidentfrogman.now.nu]
Need I say more?
All of you, with various belief seem to think your press is the truth and anyone elses is propoganda. Seem of you do actually realise that the press dosn't always tell the whole truth. But what you all fail to realise is at the end of the day your press will always follow the direction of reporting that is in their own (goverments) interests. It's scary how easily believe what you read and don't keep an open mind. (I didn't explain this well but I hope you get the point)
Anyway I'll leave you for the moment with a few thoughts:
"The U.S. has spent $75 BILLION dollars" On what? do some research and find out how many lives $75 billion can save if used differently (a couple of ideas, to send every child in the third world to school would only cost about $3 billion)
"IM STILL WAITING FOR THE TRUTH IF SADDAM HAS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!! " Do you really think that they won't even if there isn't? (I do actually believe they exist personnally, but either way we'll never know the truth).
"i'm confused by the russian convoy" Me to, they are friends of Iraq and friends (in a sense) of the USA so why the need to leave in the first place let alone at that time.
"I doubt they could have asked for helping to evacuate them by air" They wanted to fly themselves out but the Americans "couldn't guarantee there safety" lol
"The Russian convoy was fired upon " As it crossed nobody's mind that it was an accident? Looking at the number of "friendly fire" incidents that have taken place it the most likely scenario. You people here seem to be the only ones who are making a fuss about it. Your goverments seem content with the explanations (basically they know what happened) that means it wasn't intentional or you'd be fighting each other by now.
Jesus you lot, wars start with the crap some of you have been spouting at each other, try using your brain before you engage your fingers.
Malin
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Sorry, can't resist this one:
don't know what your govt told you , but Chernobyl was not a nuclear explosion.
Look up the inquiry reports into what happened, it points at a bad design. As far as I'm now aware and following Chernobyl there is now no reactors of that type active in the world (all closed down due to same design fault) Russia's only failed first because it was poorly maintained but it was only a matter of time before one of them blew up. Look up the design and find out there country of origin.
Malin
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Geez ... they're friggin' multiplyin'. Hell, comrades, while yer here why don't ya give this game a try? Even if half of ya are smelly sock-puppets.
There ya go, HT ...
(Maybe if they get addicted they won't have so much time on their hands. LOL Who'm I kiddin'?)
Originally posted by terror_72ag
All above stated, is, clearly, my HO.
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Originally posted by terror_72ag
I want good and thouroughtfull explanations, how it has happened. Imagine US diplomats injured by Russian crossfire somewhere on the world? That would've immediately brought us to the brink of war!
Here's yer explanation: The US warned diplomats to leave the country before the first shot was fired. Your's chose to ignore the warning. Here's my apology: Tough sh*t.
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the imperial mercenari diplomat killers of the boosh/halburton oil cartel have a small temporary victory, but the mighty saddam "light of islam " shall return at the head of a mighty army of french/russian to destroy the agressor criminals and regain his title as emperor of iraq and the "light of islam"and "butcher of baghdad"
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Originally posted by AKIron
It's possible they found much more than "1". The find is being evaluated as we "speak". Don't you watch Fox News?
NO I dont watch fox news. I watch C(ommunist) N(ews) N(etwork) :D
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Originally posted by Mathman
Hey Boroda, you sure you haven't been to the United States before? (http://www.yakov.com/default.html)
(http://john_baber.tripod.com/yakov/yakov.gif)
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i bet yakov smirnoff runs a mafia here (Los Angeles):D
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You guys need help! Murdoch shut up! (http://firefly.sparse.org/~mrt/cgi-bin/t.cgi?field=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hitechcreations.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Fs%3D%26threadid%3D84240%26pagenumber%3D2)
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I can see how we might have accidentally shot the russian diplomats, hell we shot at our own from time to time.
sh*t happens and sometimes people die, kinda the way of the world.
guess the russians learned a valuable leason.
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Was thinking that earlier Concho.
While the Friendly Fire incidents are continually the subject of more and more prevention efforts, they still happen.
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IN SOVIET RUSSIA WEOPONS SALE YOU. HAHAHAHASHAHAHAHASH LOLolLOMFGROTFL
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Originally posted by Boroda
Poland sold them most of their T-72s.
Free Poland or pre 1991 Soviet, warsaw pact Poland ?
I allready know the answer. I just find it humorous that Poland and Czech Republic are listed on the chart as if they were not part of warsaw pact. As if they could partake in international commerce independant of the USSR . As if the profits did not go to the USSR .
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well, I think you have some ideas on how US deals with casuality numbers. I don't know about soldiers body count, but aircraft combat losses are minimised by different tricks. For example: when the AC is shot down and falls down on friendly territory it's not a combat loss...
As someone that has first hand knowledge of USN/USMC aircraft losses (in combat or otherwise), I can quite clearly state that you are wrong on this point.
Not that you will believe me, since I work for the DoN...I'm just spouting official "lies" in your mind. :rolleyes:
At least I'm not a pirate and a thief.
-Smut
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I'm amazed...
Instead of putting aside the views of your government, or even your personal views, you let them control your statements, and your views. It might be hard for you guys to realise that CNN.com isn't as objective as they wish, and therefore is far from a credible news source. At this point the only journalists the US likes to keep near them are the ones that are screened thoroughly and are certain not to sumbit too damaging news reports, no problem that's normal. (N.B. The journalists that aren't allowed are shot at by a tank... as it appears) And I guess it's kinda normal that you guys back your troops in Iraq and your government and believe all the news you're fed through prime time every day...
What I DON'T get is that at least SOME of you are sceptical enough to see through the smoke screen, you guys like to say you were "the first democracy" (which isn't even completely true) and you guys like to use the words "freedom" and "liberty" a gazillion times a day, but you are forgetting to USE that freedom, somewhere in between Clinton and Bush you forgot to be free enough not to believe everything they say to you... I mean, when Clinton was screwing Lewinski you were even bold enough to suggest a direct empeachment procedure, that's if Clinton would be stupid enough to let his private life interfere with his work, which he didn't! And now, when your accidental president (hell he's not even really elected, but somehow I guess you guys in here all voted for mr George W. ?) is threatening to use his military to establish a democracy in a country he's got NO control over.
You see the United Nations were founded in order to prevent some force from becoming SO blinded by its own size that it would just invade other countries, right now the US is doing nothing better than Saddam, they're invading Iraq, Iraq invaded Kuwait, why do you guys think you have the power to play judge for the whole world? Don't you see, it's NOT DEMOCRATIC, and a democracy was the thing you people were trying to install right...?
Suuuure, Saddam is an a--hole, sure, I hate him as much as you do, but that doesn't give you the right to invade other countries...
Well I have nothing against the Americans, it's your current government which by its egocentrical and selfsufficient attitude kicks me in the groin... either way, I guess most Europeans would've voted Gore anyway
I'm not sure if I'll reread this thread, I'm not going to waste my time on a flame war, and I'm absolutely positive some of you will try to drag me down to that...
NO media is objective, NONE... you're looking at the world through a dampened mirror
[edit]I'm always shocked when I hear people saying stuff about someone else's crimes, while forgetting their own, there is blood at the hands of EVERY nation in the world, especially the US and Russia (well maybe not Tibet ;))[/edit]
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You wanna tell us why five news agencies are reporting that the Russian newspapers are reporting that the Russian diplomatic convoy was trying to smuggle secret archive documents out of the country for Saddam Hussein?
How about you post links to THAT article.
How about you tell us why Russians are smuggling for Saddam Hussien, AGAIN?
I won't hold my breath waiting for an honest answer from you and your country, neither of you have given an honest answer anyway.
Oh yeah, what's this about Pravda claiming that the bombing in Iraq and Afghanistan causing geological problems in Russia that will result in mass flooding?
Maybe you should consider using all that "pravda" you guys have for what its intended for, fertilizer. I'm sure the resulting agriculture boom will result in an economic recovery the likes of which the world has never seen.
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Zembla's post reminds me of the girl in the "Nickelodeon diplomacy" radio conversation .
"Somewhere between Clinton and Bush we've lost our way" LMAO, classic .
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Hey... way to go on the Baroda support group showing in full force.
Why didn't we question the chart? I dunno... it just seems to be a standard chart for any lunatic dictator ran country. I mean... its not like that chart would aply for North Korea too. Its not like those three companies at the top of the list have a "we sell any weapon to anyone" tag on their embassy door.
As for why Baroda is getting jumped:
Read the board some more. Its pretty much invited these days. Someone comes in with only media reports to back him up and makes claims as if they were fact screaming that any other media reports are bias and only his media isn't. Its nice that three people with the same beliefs come in to convince everyone else they are brainwashed. I tell you what... you're support group needs to find something else to talk about. You've already convinced yourselves that Americans are mindless and understand nothing and only the Russian media has the balls to present it right... especially if they are presenting it as anti-American (not like they too are trying to give their customers what they want :rolleyes: ).
A Russian convoy is caught in the crossfires. The Russian contingent choses to believe it was all the Americans fault. The Russian contingent fails to realize that the Russians were warned to leave Baghdad months before. The Russian contingent fails to realize that the diplomats were driving through a war zone. The Russian contingent fails to realize that the Russians may or may not have let their departure plans be known, but it is guaranteed they did not ask for U.S. escort out of the city.
People that insisted on staying in the middle of a war are upset because they became casualties. How fricking ironic. And how ironic that they come here insisting that it was everyone else's fault.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well, Ramzaj reports were very interesting, and didn't contain obvious lies like "coalition" reports.
What spectacular examples of misseducation we have seen as of late, the Iraqi Information minister, and our very own Zampolit of AH, Boroda .
"If you can't be a good example, be a horrible reminder"
Boroda you remind us of everything the free world stands against, for this we thank you, don't ever change, we need you. You just can't get this stuff at a museum or the history channel .
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Are there any russians in the U.S. that arent into organized crime?
lazs
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Actually, Zembla, some lost there way between Bush #1 and Bush #2, so we got Clinton. Enough people decided to vote, and the courts decided they wouldn't attempt to elect a president by litigation, so we avoided Gore. When you have ironclad proof that Gore won, you post it here. It's been proven time and time again that he lost. He didn't even come close to carrying his home state. Since you're an EXPERT on U.S. elections, why don't you tell us all about that?
Regarding the creation of the UN. The UN was created because the League of Nations was paralyzed and refused to act in regards to Hitler and Hirohito, and therefore became impotent. Notice the parallel. The UN has become paralyzed and refused to act in regards to Hussien, even after 12 years. The UN is now impotent and irrelevant.
It is interesting to note that YOU are a recent addition, having only one post prior. You and Malin and terror_72AG, whatever he is. I find myself wondering, what brings you here? Boroda invite you to spew and run? You joined in the last couple of days, likely have never played the game, come in here and spew a bunch of drivel in defense of Boroda and his current indefensible position, and then say "I'll likely not come back and read this thread again so flame me if you want". What you SHOULD have said is that you are going to spew and run because you cannot support your position either.
Here is a really practical idea for you 4. Come to America, at our invitation. Since you are so desperately in love with Clinton, Gore, and the UN, take the whole lot of them home with you. While you're at it, you can provide Clinton and Gore with a pension, and complete round the clock protection every where they go. Build the UN a new HQ building, and provide maintenance and security for that building, and security for all those extra homes and embassies for all the diplomats. While you're at it, provide the VAST majority of the money, the military equipment, and the military manpower for the UN. And make absolutely certain that you cater to their every whim, and that you do exactly as they wish. Do it for about 50 years and then come back and tell us all how great it is and how good it was for your country.
You four fine gentlemen meet some where in Europe and have yourselves a nice group hug and tell each other how great you are, and pat yourselves on the back for that wonderful job you're doing for all humanity.
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Looks like Baroda either
A: Made numerous accounts on this board
or
B: Was so upset at being made to look like a fool, he called every russian with a computer.
To bad none of them can afford to play the game.
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to be honest, I haven't reupped my subscription yet, my computer is choking on AH again, it's time to build a new rig. The last time I flew AH was during the big free trial. I was on a night mission in a Jug and it locked my computer solid. The resulting crash did enough damage it took three weeks to get the thing back up and running, I came close to having to do a full hard format, that would have cost me months of important data. On the other hand, I've been flying off and on, and hanging around AH for a couple years, I'm no "Yakov come lately".
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I'm glad people don't need subscriptions to post to this board. So much would be lost if that wasn't the case.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I'm glad people don't need subscriptions to post to this board. So much would be lost if that wasn't the case.
I don't disagree at all with you Dowding, at least on this subject. However, the drive by spewings are a little ridiculous.
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Yeah, but they are interesting.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Are there any russians in the U.S. that arent into organized crime?
lazs
Of course!
(http://www.yakov.com/images/shopImg1.jpg)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Of course!
(http://www.yakov.com/images/shopImg1.jpg)
DUH!!!!!!!:D
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mt... ya know... I have noticed a difference in those russians that came here before the collaps and those who came after. We won't be getting any more Ayn Rand's but we will be getting a ****load of petty and not so petty criminals.
hell... baroda himself is a theif of software.
lazs
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hmmmmmmmm, ive seen lots of comments to boroda like "have you been on the bread line?" and other BS comments. C'mon those phrases are gettin old.
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and they put me on "Probation"
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Amazing, I make two points and I'm a russian. At least some of you seem to be educated enough to read my first post and understand but obviously there are those among you who don't understand the written word (probably because English isn't there first language) and instantly accuse me of being Russian, "spew a bunch of drivel in defense of Boroda ", "Its nice that three people with the same beliefs ".
Where in my post do I support Boroda or what he said?
i'm confused by the russian convoy" Me to, they are friends of Iraq and friends (in a sense) of the USA so why the need to leave in the first place let alone at that time
Hmm really looks to me like I'm supporting Boroda.
For those of you more simple minded among us my post points out that the Press LIES to you. It's hardly surprising Russian press is saying the Americans shot up the convoy, as is the American press is saying they didn't. The Press follows the feeling of there own country and influences it's reporting accordingly. A reporter born, bred and educated in the USA will be influenced by this abroad, likewise a Russian journalists who's been brought up to think the US of A is the big bad guy. (look at the Cold war, both sides thought the other was the big Evil).
The only people who know the truth are so high up in Goverment and they will never tell us the truth and to be honest with you I don't care.
@Captain Virgil Hilts. did you understand the meaning of engage your brain before your fingers? Do some research before you start spouting off about how wonderful things are and how much money the US has spent to remove Saddam. The $75 billion you refer to is the military cost spent by the US in removing him from power. If it was $75 billion invested in improving the way of life for the whole world including your own country then I'd be impressed but at the end of the day your $75 billion has killed alot of people be they innocent or not. Tell me how much the USA is spending on humanitarian aid in Iraq, but I can bet it will a tiny fraction of the amount you've just spent killing people.
yet your country not only fails to accept its share of that responsibility but in fact continues to provide aid and comfort to the Saddam regime of Iraq.
As I said in my first post make sure your evidence is foolproof before you make a statement. What aid and comfort? Did you bother to even verify the accuracy of the chart at the beginning of this post before you spouted off? If they are providing aid and comfort to the Iraqi regime show us the proof and if it's correct then I'll believe you but from what I can see you're basing your information on a chart that was created by a French lunatic and if you bothered to research it you'd discover it's delibratly misleading in the hope that idiots like yourself would take it at face value.
Do it for about 50 years and then come back and tell us all how great it is and how good it was for your country.
Again research it and then give me facts and figures and prove to me that the USA hasn't benefited economicaly in the last 50 years by hosting the UN and creating it's place as the world leader. You also spout off about the league of nations, do you know any history? Do you even know the USA didn't even belong to the League of Nations? Do you even realise that the LoN did actually prevent a number of wars during it's term and in terms of Germany and WW2 Germany withdrew from the LoN in 1933 and the LoN acted in concert when the time of war did actually come about.
like tell the truth,
Don't talk crap every goverment in the world (yes this includes yours and mine) is guilty of lying and occasionally they get caught out but the odds are the number of lies that have been successfully told to us the general public far outweight those which have been exposed.
Come to America,
Why? your gun crime is horrific, your Health system isn't free, your country has huge problems with racial intolerance and you seem to be trying to prove to the rest of the world what men you are by waving lots of big guns around. My country isn't perfect but I'm safer here thank you very much. Maybe you should have invested some of that $75 billion in making your schools a safer place for your students to goto.
@Lazs
hell... baroda himself is a theif of software.
Duh, it took me five minutes to discover that baroda is a forum moderator nothing more nothing less. If you have proof to the contrary please state otherwise. If we were in the USA according to your laws he could sue you for slander and defammation of character.
@minid
I agree with your post but the russian being pretty bloody stupid so it would be polite for you to retract the And how ironic that they come here insisting that it was everyone else's fault.
Rereading the posts by Zembla and Terror where does it refer to them saying it was everyones elses fault? All they are doing IMHO is pointing out that War is wrong no matter how you look at it because people DIE and the press isn't always objective.
This war has cost approx $100 billion dollars, I dare you to do some research and discover if spent differently what this money could have done to save millions of lives around the world as well as ensuring situations like Iraq do not come about again without even firing a shot.
Malin
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malin... yu miss the obvious. $75 billion or $175 billion in aid is worthless untill you get saddam out of power.. What was your plan to do that again?
lazs
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i love how ripsnort is the first idiot to post news as facts that has alot of maybes and ifs and possibles in it.
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This war has cost approx $100 billion dollars, I dare you to do some research and discover if spent differently what this money could have done to save millions of lives around the world as well as ensuring situations like Iraq do not come about again without even firing a shot
Try reading to the end before you comment lazs
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Originally posted by Malin
Duh, it took me five minutes to discover that baroda is a forum moderator nothing more nothing less. If you have proof to the contrary please state otherwise. If we were in the USA according to your laws he could sue you for slander and defammation of character.
LOL! Boroda doesn't need us to defame his character; he does a fine job on his own.
I point you to this (http://planeta.terra.com.br/servicos/nicae/faq.htm) FAQ which lists Boroda as having provided hosting for Freebirds. Specifically, the FAQ states:
"-AIKE- analysed the game traffic separately from -ITMO- and send bug reports to IEN with ways to fix them for free. -AIKE- was also blamed by IEN. Then -AIKE- coded his own server on ANSI-C, and Sep'99 –IVAN-/--UF-- and BORODA hosted it in Moscow."
That alone might not indicate that it's the Boroda we know and love, but the FAQ then includes a cease and desist order from IEN which lists the actual names of the participants in this piracy. It states:
"Software Pirates Identified so far:
Pavel Pavlov....email address...tengrie@sky.chph.ras.ru
Alex Inozemcev....email : alex_1@udmnet.ru
Yuri Nikitin
Igor Borodin
Sergey Kogan
Sergey Hlupnov
Fedor Ashanin"
Boroda's sig includes his name, which it lists as Pavel Pavlov.
I'd call that triangulation of facts. Someone named Boroda hosted a Freebirds server in Russia. We have a Boroda on these boards who signs his name Pavel Pavlov, and IEN sent a cease and desist order listing the name Pavel Pavlov as one of the perpetrators. It's pretty damn hard to deny these facts.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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LOL, you're gonna make me a bad guy by having me defend boroda.
He's accused of being a thief, yet you yourself have stated that a guy called aike coded his own server on ANSI and boroda hosted it.
So tell me whats wrong with that and why he's a thief? Has he made alot of money doing this? Did he sneak into IEN's office and steal the server side software? Do the people who play on his server steal the software from IEN? Does he still host the server?
Why's he not pissed at aike for not mentioning him on the FH website in the credits.
Back to the original point. What proof do you have he's a thief and what has he stolen?
Malin
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possession of stolen goods comrad......do you think FH is theft?
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It has nothing to do with Boroda personally, and I think the personal insulting against him and others is very trailer park. It is about is opinions, most of which are based on lies he got from his soviet education, or Pravda, or god knows where . Most here, through some morbid curiosity, find it intriguing, and some of us wonder why he clings to such lies. Is he so completely programmed, or does he harbor some resentment of the free world, or does the soviet propaganda machine live on in modern Russia ?
Most americans don't believe people as miseducated as he still exist, sadder still, some believe that they never did. He is as I stated before a spectacular example .
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Suave, you do not take into consideration that the other side may also be guility of having opinions based upon lies instilled by their own education system? By trying to read this thread impartially you gain the impression that people on both sides of the argument are equally mislead.
Sadly because so few post here from boroda's side of the discussion whole opinions are based upon peoples perception of his replies. Looking at the other side you see a range of opinions which when taken into account the broader picture you realise both sides do have those who are both totally misguided and those who at least retain some independant thinking (I won't state where boroda is in this range because you need to see him in the opposite enviroment where you can judge his thinking by others of his culture). sadly it appears the more misguided, by being more active, post more and so whole gems of truth become loste in the wasteland of rumour.
Malin
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Originally posted by Malin
He's accused of being a thief, yet you yourself have stated that a guy called aike coded his own server on ANSI and boroda hosted it.
He's not "accused" of anything...he has freely admited his involvement in pirating Warbirds. I'm not talking about the host itself...I'm talking about the client software he is using to play on that host.
I suggest you read the license agreement for Warbirds.
Theft is theft. Are you sure you want to continue to defend a thief?
-Smut
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Originally posted by Suave
It has nothing to do with Boroda personally, and I think the personal insulting against him and others is very trailer park.
I'm not insulting him to be "trailer park".I simply have a very low tolerance for software pirates. Most likely that is because for a period of time, I worked as a game developer, and I've seen my own work pirated.
-Smut
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Originally posted by Suave
Most americans don't believe people as miseducated as he still exist, sadder still, some believe that they never did. He is as I stated before a spectacular example .
Why is he miseducated? Because he believes his news services over yours? Because he believes the news services of a country not at war, rather than the news service of a war waging country about the war it's in? You're being quite a hypocrite by saying such a thing, because you are doing exactly the same thing as he is, you're both taking your own propagande for true...
But Boroda makes us believe he has learned that Russian propaganda isn't always right, I'm afraid you're so blinded by freedom of speech and freedom of journalism that you believe the American press is not prejudiced...
Maybe Boroda is playing advocate of the devil for that incident? To compensate your own absolute belief in American press coverage? I wouldn't know, I can't look into his soul, but it is a real possibility
I've said it before and will say it again, NO press agency is completely neutral...
Smut, theft is theft, sure is, nobody doubts that, but isn't democracy (as said before the things any westerner goes by) designed so that also the thiefes and the lower layers of society have a voice, you're behaving very elitary... (dun even know if that's an English word ;))
BTW, I'm not a Rusky either sry to disapoint you... nor am I a native speaker though
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Originally posted by Malin
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come to America,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why? your gun crime is horrific, your Health system isn't free, your country has huge problems with racial intolerance and you seem to be trying to prove to the rest of the world what men you are by waving lots of big guns around. My country isn't perfect but I'm safer here thank you very much. Maybe you should have invested some of that $75 billion in making your schools a safer place for your students to goto
Malin [/B]
Hmmmmmmmm, you are a true patriot of your motherland. Some people die just to get in to the United States. For example, the Mexicans cross the border to have a better life and they have to endure the Arizona Desert and they would also have to evade arizona citizens who armed themselves with guns to shoot people who are comming to USA by crossing the border.
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Teeth bonded by blood money!
Originally posted by midnight Target
Of course!
(http://www.yakov.com/images/shopImg1.jpg)
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I guess if you grow up in Iraq or Russia you just assume that all news agencies, even in the free world, are a form of state sponsered propaganda . Of course they aren't, I can understand why this is hard for some to believe .
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I dunno about that ... that Star, Globe and Inquirer in the supermarket checkout line look awfully suspicious.
Originally posted by Suave
I guess if you grow up in Iraq or Russia you just assume that all news agencies, even in the free world, are a form of state sponsered propaganda . Of course they aren't, I can understand why this is hard for some to believe .
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Originally posted by Arlo
I dunno about that ... that Star, Globe and Inquirer in the supermarket checkout line look awfully suspicious.
LMAO!
What ? You don't believe that Hitlers brain has been transplanted into Delta Burke's body ?!
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Originally posted by Boroda
Russia will never give Hussein any kind of shelter. At least I hope so.
In current time we have a certain degree of idiotism in politics. I am 100% sure our commies will shout out loud that we have to protect Saddam from "evil imperialists", forgetting that he murdered all Iraqi Communists in mid-70s. But I think that our "Kremlin dreamer" has at least some common sence.
Yeah if saddam is there I think he can take over Russia from within. He can put up new statues and signs and he will have the bomb...
Hope your leaders dont fall for the brainwash Boroda.
Dont look at his eyes.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Read my posts carefully, please.
I have been to the US in 1989, when Evil Communist Regime sent me there as an exchange student.
BTW, the guy on that page looks like anyone but Russian. a Jew? An Arab? A Caucasian? (I mean from Caucasus, Georgian, Armenian or Chechen)
Damn you are racist because he doesnt look like a russian?
HOOT!
anyways he is funny as can be, I like him.
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Originally posted by terror_72ag
. Imagine US diplomats injured by Russian crossfire somewhere on the world? That would've immediately brought us to the brink of war!
e-
All above stated, is, clearly, my HO.
If you really believe we would be on the brink of war if this incident was reversed, you have a lot to learn about americans.
Of course most times other countries dont really "get" america.
We love peace enough to fight for it.
We wouldnt go to war over an "accident", well unless its a few accidental nukes heading our way ;->
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Originally posted by lazs2
Are there any russians in the U.S. that arent into organized crime?
lazs
Lazs, not many, really. My brother in law is a Captain with Sacramento Pee Dee and he says they're into chop shops, drug sales, all the usual good stuff the first generations of any immigrants do. We saw it with the Irish, we saw it with the Italians, the Asians, and now the Eastern Europeans. Hell, even the Jews had rackets when they first immigrated here. Hopefully it passes in a generation or two as the people assimiliate to American culture.
Whatever, as an ethnic American whose lineage is difficult to trace owing to the prostitution of the last several generations of Airhead women I'm just glad as hell to be beyond reproach.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Geez ... they're friggin' multiplyin'. Hell, comrades, while yer here why don't ya give this game a try? Even if half of ya are smelly sock-puppets.
There ya go, HT ...
(Maybe if they get addicted they won't have so much time on their hands. LOL Who'm I kiddin'?)
they scairt is why, they dont want any PEEthudyeights eating thier lunch....:p ;)
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Originally posted by Malin
LOL, you're gonna make me a bad guy by having me defend boroda.
[/B]
Let's revisit your original statement. You said:
"If you have proof to the contrary please state otherwise. If we were in the USA according to your laws he could sue you for slander and defammation of character"
That seems pretty defensive to me. If I have proof to the contrary? I do, and I stated it. The ball's in your court if you wish to continue defending someone whose actions are indefensible, then you are a "bad guy" by association.
He's accused of being a thief, yet you yourself have stated that a guy called aike coded his own server on ANSI and boroda hosted it.
[/B]
Which makes him a thief.
So tell me whats wrong with that and why he's a thief? Has he made alot of money doing this? Did he sneak into IEN's office and steal the server side software? Do the people who play on his server steal the software from IEN? Does he still host the server?
[/B]
He's a thief because he stole or acted as an accessory to theft of intellectual property. Legally, it doesn't matter at all that he didn't make any money from this theft; what matters is that IEN lost money as a result of people flying on Freehost rather than subscribing to their service. These people, and Boroda in particular for offering a venue for it, have essentially stolen money that IEN rightfully deserves. Whether he continues to host it does not matter, since he irrefutably did host it at one time.
Think of it this way. Maybe Boroda didn't steal the car, but he offered a garage to store it despite knowing that it was stolen. That makes him an accessory.
Why's he not pissed at aike for not mentioning him on the FH website in the credits.
[/B]
I don't know. You'll have to ask Boroda that.
Back to the original point. What proof do you have he's a thief and what has he stolen?
[/B]
Are you intentionally obtuse? These questions have been answered numerous times by numerous people.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Airhead
Whatever, as an ethnic American whose lineage is difficult to trace owing to the prostitution of the last several generations of Airhead women I'm just glad as hell to be beyond reproach.
FWIW, I always did think you were a bastard, in a nice sort of way.
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@dead man Flying.
Thank you for your reply but the question is still open as to why boroda is a thief.
He's a thief because he stole or acted as an accessory to theft of intellectual property. Legally, it doesn't matter at all that he didn't make any money from this theft; what matters is that IEN lost money as a result of people flying on Freehost rather than subscribing to their service. These people, and Boroda in particular for offering a venue for it, have essentially stolen money that IEN rightfully deserves. Whether he continues to host it does not matter, since he irrefutably did host it at one time.
To try and argue whether FH is theft of intellectual property in a court of law would be extremely difficult. For one if you look at the cirumstances around the creation of FH and take into the account it was offered by aike to IEN with the suggestion that he hosts it on there behalf in russia to allow a wider audience in Warbirds and this suggestion was scorned by IEN is in itself a grounds for dismissal (would be difficult to claim loss of revenue when you effectively refuse an offer to increase your revenue). Added to which the fact that at the time IEN was charging $2 an hour to play Warbirds and yet not offering a useable connection to anyone outside of the USA you could turn it around and claim discrimination by IEN against people unfortunate enough not to have been born into the west.
It would be also extremely difficult to prosecute aike for theft (in it's common term) because aike's software is written in a different format than IEN's and dosn't utilise the same source code as the original.
So back to the original point if it's so diffcult to even prove aike the originator of FH is a thief then to label boroda as one is still grounds for slander and defamation of character.
To simplify if anything aike is guilty of plagurism (alot easier to prove this)
FH still exists which if anything would indicate to you that to use the term "theft" in this instance is groundless. You could even argue that to label FH as theft would be to label every individual, firm or orgasnisation that has taken a product and improved on it in the same category.
Malin
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Back to the thread, why do people persist in believing that there own society will always be telling the truth and others are always lying and not take into consideration that all media distorts the truth.
If we the people in the world began to openly question what the media was telling us more often then the quality of reporting would improve. At present media companies present to us the general public little more than speculation and rumour as fact, and we let them get away with it.
Why do they do it? because facts don't sell headlines. Imagine if the incident with the russian convoy had been correctly reported by the media all around the world in the facts.
"US troops accidentally shot up Russian convoy of diplomats because somebody forgot to pass the message on that they were leaving" (this is an example, probably the truth but either way it's only an example)
How many newspapers would that have sold? Not many to tell the truth. By distorting and exagerating the truth in an effort to sell more newspapers the media are more than guilty in creating situations that result in loss of human life.
To speculate, if the media everywhere was forced by us questioning it more to report the truth then stunninghunks like saddam and many others throughout history wouldn't exist. The fact we don't question it and allow our goverments to control the media allows situations like this to exist.
Malin
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Originally posted by Malin
Back to the thread, why do people persist in believing that there own society will always be telling the truth and others are always lying and not take into consideration that all media distorts the truth.
If we the people in the world began to openly question what the media was telling us more often then the quality of reporting would improve. At present media companies present to us the general public little more than speculation and rumour as fact, and we let them get away with it.
Why do they do it? because facts don't sell headlines. Imagine if the incident with the russian convoy had been correctly reported by the media all around the world in the facts.
"US troops accidentally shot up Russian convoy of diplomats because somebody forgot to pass the message on that they were leaving" (this is an example, probably the truth but either way it's only an example)
How many newspapers would that have sold? Not many to tell the truth. By distorting and exagerating the truth in an effort to sell more newspapers the media are more than guilty in creating situations that result in loss of human life.
To speculate, if the media everywhere was forced by us questioning it more to report the truth then stunninghunks like saddam and many others throughout history wouldn't exist. The fact we don't question it and allow our goverments to control the media allows situations like this to exist.
Malin
We don't always assume one media is full of lies, while the other is always truthful. Most view many sources, and make their own decisions.
Baroda loved posting links from pravda, al jazeera, and other propaganda rags. We look at the articles he posted, then we looked at what other news sources said, then we looked at the truth.
When the garbage they post is consistently proven as false, it becomes safer to generalize.
Skim through the crap Baroda, am, and crew has posted. Then look and see what really happened.
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@Ike 2K.
Are you naturally an idiot or just working at it?
you are a true patriot of your motherland.
If you used the grey matter between your eyes a little more and thought about what people were saying and how they were saying it then you'd probably be able to figure out for yourself I'm not russian. For gods sake man I've given enough hints in my posts already without pointing this out.
Some people die just to get in to the United States.
My country has one of the biggest problems with illegal immigrants in the whole world. People come here because they are lead to believe that they will have an easy life, a job, a house etc without having to do bugger all. Reality is they won't. US of A has the same problem, people think that if they goto the states they'll instantly be able to live the life of a millionaire playboy (just like they see on TV) without having to work at it. Reality is most will end up in menial jobs earning minimal wages.
If people realised this more and worked harder at improving the quality of life in there own countries instead of believing the grass is greener on the other side maybe the world would be a better place to live.
Malin
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Originally posted by Malin
@Ike 2K.
Are you naturally an idiot or just working at it?
If you used the grey matter between your eyes a little more and thought about what people were saying and how they were saying it then you'd probably be able to figure out for yourself I'm not russian. For gods sake man I've given enough hints in my posts already without pointing this out.
My country has one of the biggest problems with illegal immigrants in the whole world. People come here because they are lead to believe that they will have an easy life, a job, a house etc without having to do bugger all. Reality is they won't. US of A has the same problem, people think that if they goto the states they'll instantly be able to live the life of a millionaire playboy (just like they see on TV) without having to work at it. Reality is most will end up in menial jobs earning minimal wages.
If people realised this more and worked harder at improving the quality of life in there own countries instead of believing the grass is greener on the other side maybe the world would be a better place to live.
Malin
what country are you from?
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@martlett.
We don't always assume one media is full of lies, while the other is always truthful. Most view many sources, and make their own decisions.
Sadly most people on both sides of the fence don't view many sources and make there own decisions. From what I've read on this post the opinion I have is that anyhting upto 70% of the people here are allowing themselves to be mislead by the media.
then we looked at the truth.
The point I'm trying to make is that we won't ever know the truth. Unless you were there (and in most cases being there makes it harder to find the truth out) or are extremely high up in goverment you will only ever be presented by a few grains of truth buried amongst a mountain of rumour and speculation.
Malin
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Originally posted by Malin
@martlett.
Sadly most people on both sides of the fence don't view many sources and make there own decisions. From what I've read on this post the opinion I have is that anyhting upto 70% of the people here are allowing themselves to be mislead by the media.
The point I'm trying to make is that we won't ever know the truth. Unless you were there (and in most cases being there makes it harder to find the truth out) or are extremely high up in goverment you will only ever be presented by a few grains of truth buried amongst a mountain of rumour and speculation.
Malin
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude (for once), but you obviously really don't know what it's like to live in the US.
Does our gov't tell us the whole truth? Of course not. Do they tell us blatant lies? Maybe. Some most likely do.
But with competetive press, there are many things that are difficult to get away with. Media loves to prove the other is lying. When you have embedded reporters, it's even harder to lie about many things, because it is being reported from there live. A few weeks ago a reporter changed a picture a little bit, so it would fit with his papers slant. It was quickly found out, and the truth was printed, the reporter fired.
Of course it's biased, but the truth is still there. Any intelligent person can see it. This is directly opposite of the blatant lies Baroda was printing.
You still haven't said what country you are from.
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what country are you from?
LOL, what and let myself be ridiculed as has happened to so many others on this board just because of who I am.
Let me generalise,
A:I'm from XXXX.
B: Ah, you have no idea what you're talking about because you come from a XXXX country and can't possibly understand our glorious wonderful society.
A: But I've heard this happens in your country.
B: Ha, lies fed to you by your (insert type, facist, communist, poor, dictatorship) goverment.
A: but...
B: No buts your opinion is worthless because you come from XXXX and we all know (even though we've never been there, met anyone from there, or learnt your history) that you're all criminals, drug dealers, murderers etc.
whilst I may respect you and some others on this board for being willing to enter a discussion the majority here seem to persist in taking the example shown above.
Sadly they don't realise that societies are judged by the actions and words of it's peoples and all they succeed in doing is given the impression (wrongly) that all people from the USA are arrogant, poorly educated and totally lacking in empathy.
I know many Americans, as I know many from Russia, Germany, Italy, Israel etc and it is the actions of these few in all parts of the world who are responsible for much of the suffering.
Take note Ike2K, Captain Virgil, lazs and others by your open hostility and abuse of others from other parts of the world you paint a picture of your country which has lead to much of the Anti USA sentiments sweeping Europe.
Alot of Europeans read these boards more than you could possibly imagine, they read your posts and remember reading similar things to these prior to WWII, until you learn to open your minds and discuss things rather than jumping straight in the deep end with open abuse and scorn then maybe you would find more support in the actions you take around the world.
Malin
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But with competetive press, there are many things that are difficult to get away with. Media loves to prove the other is lying. When you have embedded reporters, it's even harder to lie about many things, because it is being reported from there live. A few weeks ago a reporter changed a picture a little bit, so it would fit with his papers slant. It was quickly found out, and the truth was printed, the reporter fired.
Take any major incident that involes civilian casualities (civil disaster not war). You can buy 10 different newspapers and watch 5 different TV stations and you can almost guarantee that the deathtoll figures will be different in each one, two weeks later the truth comes out but by then no-ones interested because the media are hyping the next mega story. Very few of us look at multiple sources for confirmation, it is these individuals that I'm trying (now with your aid) to educate into a few simple rules.
1. look at multiple sources.
2. Question what you read.
3. If you're making a statement (i.e. he's a thief) make sure your proof is 100% foolproof.
Sadly too many people are to lazy to do this and when questioned on there opinion resort to mud slinging tactics in order to discredit the person disputing their point of view.
Malin
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You make statements directly pertaining to your home nation, then won't say what it is?
That's like offering proof without a source. Therefore, completely invalid.
I'll take it as the idle chatter it is.
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proof without source.
Sorry, I thought I was offering comparisons. I don't live in the US but in some situations the same thing happens there as it does here (like the illegal immigrant problem).
It's pretty easy to figure out where I'm from if I'm not American and English is my first language.
Malin
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airhead... It was a serious question... I know about the russian community in Sacramento. Is there a russian community in the states that anyone knows of that isn't 90% or more criminal?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
airhead... It was a serious question... I know about the russian community in Sacramento. Is there a russian community in the states that anyone knows of that isn't 90% or more criminal?
lazs
I guess that depends. I know of several communities proud of their russian ancestory that aren't criminal at all. Most of them are not immigrants, though.
While I have no proof either way, I'd have a hard time believing the majority of russian immigrants are criminal.
However, I DID see a teenage russian immigrant on Judge Judy for vandalizing cars......
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Actually, Zembla, some lost there way between Bush #1 and Bush #2, so we got Clinton. Enough people decided to vote, and the courts decided they wouldn't attempt to elect a president by litigation, so we avoided Gore. When you have ironclad proof that Gore won, you post it here. It's been proven time and time again that he lost. He didn't even come close to carrying his home state. Since you're an EXPERT on U.S. elections, why don't you tell us all about that?
Regarding the creation of the UN. The UN was created because the League of Nations was paralyzed and refused to act in regards to Hitler and Hirohito, and therefore became impotent. Notice the parallel. The UN has become paralyzed and refused to act in regards to Hussien, even after 12 years. The UN is now impotent and irrelevant.
It is interesting to note that YOU are a recent addition, having only one post prior. You and Malin and terror_72AG, whatever he is. I find myself wondering, what brings you here? Boroda invite you to spew and run? You joined in the last couple of days, likely have never played the game, come in here and spew a bunch of drivel in defense of Boroda and his current indefensible position, and then say "I'll likely not come back and read this thread again so flame me if you want". What you SHOULD have said is that you are going to spew and run because you cannot support your position either.
Here is a really practical idea for you 4. Come to America, at our invitation. Since you are so desperately in love with Clinton, Gore, and the UN, take the whole lot of them home with you. While you're at it, you can provide Clinton and Gore with a pension, and complete round the clock protection every where they go. Build the UN a new HQ building, and provide maintenance and security for that building, and security for all those extra homes and embassies for all the diplomats. While you're at it, provide the VAST majority of the money, the military equipment, and the military manpower for the UN. And make absolutely certain that you cater to their every whim, and that you do exactly as they wish. Do it for about 50 years and then come back and tell us all how great it is and how good it was for your country.
You four fine gentlemen meet some where in Europe and have yourselves a nice group hug and tell each other how great you are, and pat yourselves on the back for that wonderful job you're doing for all humanity.
BTW, Willie tried to get support for action against saddam, They held a debate on it in Ohio I think(I'll try to get the link from the history channel). And there the white house spoke of need for action against saddam. They were roasted. They chanted no blood for oil. It was a disaster, they were run out of the building.
The plain fact is that if 9/11 didn't happen, bush wouldn't have got the support either.
Gore got more votes overall, so the Dems whine(not me) that that is how democracy works. But those are not the rules, and the rules rules say Bush won. You can argue all you want on how the voting system works, but those are to be made BEFORE an election, not after it. Honestly, if I were Gore I would have took the high road to safe face for the next election.
I'll admit, when 9/11 happened I was glad Bush was prez at that moment. Unlike the right, I support my prez, I don't bash him.
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airhead... It was a serious question... I know about the russian community in Sacramento. Is there a russian community in the states that anyone knows of that isn't 90% or more criminal?
This is exactly the kind of thing I was trying to point out. At least you are beginning to mellow a little lazs and giving the benefit of the doubt as to whether all russians are criminals. What you were doing before is the same as me saying:
All Americans are Arrogant stunninghunks with big fat mouths.
offensive isn't it? Now can you see why I was pissed at you, just because a small percentage of people are criminals dosn't mean everybody from the same country is one.
To improve your post even more would have been to maybe word it as thus:
"We have a big problem with criminals in the russian community in Sacramento, is it the same everywhere or are we just unlucky."
Malin
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Originally posted by Malin
LOL, what and let myself be ridiculed as has happened to so many others on this board just because of who I am.
Let me generalise,
A:I'm from XXXX.
B: Ah, you have no idea what you're talking about because you come from a XXXX country and can't possibly understand our glorious wonderful society.
A: But I've heard this happens in your country.
B: Ha, lies fed to you by your (insert type, facist, communist, poor, dictatorship) goverment.
A: but...
B: No buts your opinion is worthless because you come from XXXX and we all know (even though we've never been there, met anyone from there, or learnt your history) that you're all criminals, drug dealers, murderers etc.
And YOU make the EXACT same assumptions about the USA. Note your earlier remark about gun crime. That's just ONE example. Get off your holier than thou high horse and get real.
whilst I may respect you and some others on this board for being willing to enter a discussion the majority here seem to persist in taking the example shown above.
Sadly they don't realise that societies are judged by the actions and words of it's peoples and all they succeed in doing is given the impression (wrongly) that all people from the USA are arrogant, poorly educated and totally lacking in empathy.
I know many Americans, as I know many from Russia, Germany, Italy, Israel etc and it is the actions of these few in all parts of the world who are responsible for much of the suffering.
Take note Ike2K, Captain Virgil, lazs and others by your open hostility and abuse of others from other parts of the world you paint a picture of your country which has lead to much of the Anti USA sentiments sweeping Europe.
[/B]
Take note Malin, I'm not hostile to europeans in general, YOU make entirely too many assumptions when you know nothing of which you speak. On the otherhand, I take exception at the attitude of CERTAIN individuals no matter what country they are from. Just because I refuse to accept at face value the assumption by many that they are automaticly superior and that the U.S. is wrong simply because THEY think so and yet THEY cannot support their arguement does not mean I am hostile to ALL europeans. Far from it. I have more than a few european friends. You again make as many or more assumptions and generalizations as anyone, and you paint with a pretty broad brush too. Take a close look in the mirror, before you make too many rash assumptions.
Alot of Europeans read these boards more than you could possibly imagine, they read your posts and remember reading similar things to these prior to WWII, until you learn to open your minds and discuss things rather than jumping straight in the deep end with open abuse and scorn then maybe you would find more support in the actions you take around the world.
Malin [/B]
Perhaps, once again, you should read your own posts, and try to get a grip on why what you say and how you say it makes people hostile to YOU in particular.
It never ceases to amaze me that a continent that remained CONSTANTLY at war for CENTURIES on end, driven by conquest and colonialism, continually attributes every action by the United States as an act of aggression, and colonialism. First off, we got dragged into two WORLD WARS last century that the PEACEFUL europeans started. And it wasn't ALL Germany ALL the time in your past either. You europeans tried for several centuries to conquer, vanquish, and indeed slaughter each other. And yet YOU continually call the U.S. hawkish, aggressive, war like, and driven by colonial conquest. Malin, how about YOU go look up how many colonies you and your european brethren have conquered and held over just the time period between 1700 and 1970. There's a good 270 years, the U.S. has been around for just over 225. Now, go and look at how many wars the U.S. was in that one or the other of you and your european brethren DIDN'T start. Then count up how many colonies the U.S. has EVER had. See the difference?
For over 50 years, the U.S. has been the world's premier superpower. For about 100 years we've been very passive and benevolent. About 90% of the conflicts we've been dragged into were created by those europeans who have for the past 20 years been giving us a ration of toejam about how aggressive, rude, and arrogant we are. And yet you cannot show me a period of time from any point in history in the last 400 years where at least one or more of your so called civilized and superior nations has had anywhere near the power the U.S. holds (relatively speaking) during which they have not been constantly at war through their own aggression for the express goal of the destruction of their competitors and the conquest and colonization of as much of the world as they could possibly hope to hold.
If you want to know what makes Americans so damned angry at the europeans you go back and read what I wrote two or three more times and maybe the facts and the truth will somehow reach you.
I find it very amusing that YOU call me arrogant, while the fact is that if you look at the history of europe and compare it to that of the U.S., everything you say about the U.S. can be said about europe throughout the entire history of europe, and to a far greater degree, and with a far greater level of truth.
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Originally posted by Martlet
I guess that depends. I know of several communities proud of their russian ancestory that aren't criminal at all. Most of them are not immigrants, though.
While I have no proof either way, I'd have a hard time believing the majority of russian immigrants are criminal.
However, I DID see a teenage russian immigrant on Judge Judy for vandalizing cars......
And 86.35% of statistics are made up on the spot! :rolleyes:
Btw, your not only ignorant but also racist. Par for the course on here?
Glas
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Originally posted by Glas
And 86.35% of statistics are made up on the spot! :rolleyes:
Btw, your not only ignorant but also racist. Par for the course on here?
Glas
That post shows I'm ignorant and racist how? Because I said I have a hard time believing all russians are criminals?
Pull your head out of your ass, please, and post again.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And YOU make the EXACT same assumptions about the USA. Note your earlier remark about gun crime. That's just ONE example. Get off your holier than thou high horse and get real.
Wow not only ignorant and racist, but also extremely thick!
Malin, if you bothered to read it, said the gun crime in the US is horrific. Thats not an assumption stupid, its a FACT!
Oooops forgot, you wont really know what that means. Silly me!
Glas
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Originally posted by Martlet
That post shows I'm ignorant and racist how? Because I said I have a hard time believing all russians are criminals?
Pull your head out of your ass, please, and post again.
Ooops. The quote belonged to Lasz2, my bad :D
Glas
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Ignorance is bliss.
Posts: 1
Location: In bed with your wife
A troll, with bad bait and an obvious hook.
They're coming in in droves.
And wondering why people are hostile towards them.
Go figure.
Anyway, Americans are all arrogant prettythangholes, haven't you heard? We're all war loving racists too.
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Originally posted by Glas
Wow not only ignorant and racist, but also extremely thick!
Malin, if you bothered to read it, said the gun crime in the US is horrific. Thats not an assumption stupid, its a FACT!
Oooops forgot, you wont really know what that means. Silly me!
Glas
Look, junior is playing with his member again, and trolling. Don't troll where the sharks are junior, this is the deep end.
Ignorant? And racist? Give your evidence please.
Gun crime in the U.S. is horrific? By whose standards? Yours? It's a fact? Supported by what? Your mouth?
I'm thick? Little boy, I'm smarter, better educated, and more open minded than you'll ever be, but I know the difference between fact and fiction, an advantage you'll never have.
Go back to the kiddie pool, the best you have to offer is the same juvenile insults hurled over and over again, and with nothing at all to support them.
Are you too scared to post you're location, too ashamed, or just too stupid?
Malin I can at least have some measure of respect for. You on the other hand are just another drive by spewer, with no intelligence and no substance.
And just so you know, since you are obviously entirely to stupid to figure it out without outside help, I read every word Malin posted. You can tell that by the fact that I took it apart and replied to each of his points. Perhaps you should get your mommy to explain it to you. But then she might take your keyboard away.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Look, junior is playing with his member again, and trolling. Don't troll where the sharks are junior, this is the deep end.
Ignorant? And racist? Give your evidence please.
How many examples of ignorism and racism do you want, from this thread alone? Or havent you been reading it?
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Gun crime in the U.S. is horrific? By whose standards? Yours? It's a fact? Supported by what? Your mouth?
Ummm nope. By the FACT that you have the highest rate of homicides than anywhere else in the world. Especially gun related. Why? Because your nation is bordering on retarded. As Michael Moore rightly pointed out, there is plenty other places with the right to bear arms. Not all of them are as f*cked up as your country tho.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I'm thick? Little boy, I'm smarter, better educated, and more open minded than you'll ever be, but I know the difference between fact and fiction, an advantage you'll never have.
Little boy? Surely not more ignorance ;) You know nothing about me, yet you claim better education and open-mindedness! Muhahahhhahaha. Just like the rest of your friends, your ignorance is absolute crass.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Go back to the kiddie pool, the best you have to offer is the same juvenile insults hurled over and over again, and with nothing at all to support them.
Ummm, the words 'pot' 'kettle' and 'black' come to mind. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Are you too scared to post you're location, too ashamed, or just too stupid?
If I was a Yank, yeah I suppose I would be too ashamed. But thankfully im not. Scared? Why, you gonna come and beat me up? LOL! Not that it matters, but Im Scottish. Yeah, you know, that race of people that actually went out and killed some Iraqis and captured Basra amidst fierce fire-fights. Killing coalition soldiers and occupying what became a ghost town is as much as your country has done in this war.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Malin I can at least have some measure of respect for. You on the other hand are just another drive by spewer, with no intelligence and no substance.
Of course Malin has respect, cos deep down you know he is right. Now if you can just go that extra inch and actually admit it to yourself, you might actually learn something for a change instead of the usual spoon-fed bull**** you rely so heavily on.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And just so you know, since you are obviously entirely to stupid to figure it out without outside help, I read every word Malin posted. You can tell that by the fact that I took it apart and replied to each of his points. Perhaps you should get your mommy to explain it to you. But then she might take your keyboard away.
Dear oh dear, such child-like behaviour. I suppose when you have no other means of retaliation, crap like this is the best you can do.
Glas
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Ignorance is bliss.
Posts: 1
Location: In bed with your wife
A troll, with bad bait and an obvious hook.
They're coming in in droves.
And wondering why people are hostile towards them.
Go figure.
Anyway, Americans are all arrogant prettythangholes, haven't you heard? We're all war loving racists too.
Yeah your right, you do all seem to come across as arrogant. War-loving racist? Yup, fits the bill.
Btw, what was your point about the 'posts: 1'. Of course, the more posts you have here, the more intelligent you are. Silly me yet again.
Glas
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Age guess, anyone?
I'm betting 14.
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beetle? did you get a new alias?
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Anyway, Americans are all arrogant prettythangholes, haven't you heard? We're all war loving racists too.
lol@Captain Virgil.
I was trying to point out to lazs that me saying "All Americans are Arrogant stunninghunks" is the same as him saying "All Russians are criminals". Both statements are rude, offensive and untrue and he needs to think before he says things like that.
I have made no assumptions about the USA, I like your country and I have alot of American friends both over here and over there. (Which is why i know about your gun control problem in alot of depth, but as I made a reference to it as a comparison to where i live I won't go there). I'm trying to make some idiots realise that by their actions, disdain and outright abuse they are painting a very poor picture of the USA which to people without prior knowledge influences opinions.
Why are you defending these people? Do you think it's right to take the attitude that lazs has taken, The only Russians he's seen are criminals therefore all Russians(all 148,518,500 of them) are criminals. You not only allow him and others like him to do this but you don't seem to realise how offensive it is.
Whats worse when I try to point out these facts you then join in and accuse me of slagging America off and being arrogant myself.
You say I have made assumptions, what assumptions, if you are referring to me saying I won't tell you where I come from because you will ridicule and abuse me then you've more than justified my statement by launching into a scathing attack on how much Europe sucks (believe me I know I live here remember). But you tell me where in any of my posts have I slagged off your country (other than the comment aimed at lazs) or what I've said is untrue. America has a very big image problem in Europe at the moment I'm trying to tell you that alot of it is caused by your own countrymen in these forum groups being instantly offensive and abusive to others.
I was however slagging off the media, goverments (all of them suck) and if you want I can slag off M$.
To summarize.
I'm an alien and I've never met a human before. I put lazs in one room, and I put boroda in another and talk to both. Both say the same, their countries wonderful and the others country are all thieves, liars and criminals. Now what do I do? give up and leave because we as a race obviously havn't grown up yet.
Malin
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malin... what have I said that wasn't true?
I do think it's funny tho how these guys are afraid to say where their from.
I think that it is the envy that is making them mad.
The one from Scotland should do what my grandfather did and come here.... lose the accent and the envy. Or... feel good about where you are and don't worry about us here.
lazs
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Originally posted by Glas
How many examples of ignorism and racism do you want, from this thread alone? Or havent you been reading it?
Oh I've been reading it, all of it, but evidently you haven't.
Ummm nope. By the FACT that you have the highest rate of homicides than anywhere else in the world. Especially gun related. Why? Because your nation is bordering on retarded. As Michael Moore rightly pointed out, there is plenty other places with the right to bear arms. Not all of them are as f*cked up as your country tho.
[/B]
No, the U.S. does NOT have anywhere near the highest homicide rate in the world. Take a look at Rhodesia, or at least half a dozen other coutries in that region. I love it, an IDIOT, that get's his facts from a stupid self promoting jackprettythang like Michael Moore and calls it fact. Tell you what, stupid prettythang, stop watching the movies, and read a freaking book. In fact, read several. Michael Moore has been proven to be a liar, and his "facts" have been proven false. But since you only watch what you want to, and read even less, but then only what you want to, you wouldn't know that. If Michael Moore is the best source you have regarding the U.S., you are very ill equipped to argue anything at all. Are you going to quote Fonda or Streisand next? How about Sheen, or perhaps the Dixie Chicks? Maybe you'll quote Sean Penn. They are ENTERTAINERS (and that's using the term very loosely) you little moron, they are not experts on anything at all. They don't even have a solid grasp on the facts, nevermind reality. On the otherhand, they seem to be just your type. Arrogant, ignorant, dishonest, uninformed, and living in a dream world. Hey, why don't you quote Rosie o'Donnell on gun control too?
Little boy? Surely not more ignorance ;) You know nothing about me, yet you claim better education and open-mindedness! Muhahahhhahaha. Just like the rest of your friends, your ignorance is absolute crass.
Ummm, the words 'pot' 'kettle' and 'black' come to mind. :rolleyes:
[/B]
Roll your eyes all you want. Your ignorance is truly showing. You expected anything other than insults? After you came into somewhere you've never been before and spew your juvenile garbage and baseless insults? There is no racism here you little idiot. Not a single example. No one has been attacked on the basis of race. They've been soundly thrashed on the basis of their opinions though. I haven't written one racist word. But evidently you are entirely too stupid, arrogant and ignorant to read. Go back and find the racist comment I've made, I dare you.
If I was a Yank, yeah I suppose I would be too ashamed. But thankfully im not. Scared? Why, you gonna come and beat me up? LOL! Not that it matters, but Im Scottish. Yeah, you know, that race of people that actually went out and killed some Iraqis and captured Basra amidst fierce fire-fights. Killing coalition soldiers and occupying what became a ghost town is as much as your country has done in this war.
[/B]
Well, since you AREN'T ashamed, why don't you post your location? Did I threaten you? No. Did I even infer a threat? No. Would I bother to walk across the street to fight you? No.
Oh, and ignorant prettythang, last I looked, Scotland was a region, not a freakin race, but then if you weren't so stupid, you'd KNOW that wouldn't you?
Oh, regarding this war, ask the commander of British forces what the U.S. has done, genius. You're opinino on the war is about as educated and informed as your oyther opinions. Been watching the BBC and Al Jazeera?
We know what you "yank" by the way, that's probably what you are wasting your time on instead of learning the facts.
Of course Malin has respect, cos deep down you know he is right. Now if you can just go that extra inch and actually admit it to yourself, you might actually learn something for a change instead of the usual spoon-fed bull**** you rely so heavily on.
[/B]
No, Malin has respect because unlike you, at least he did not come in here spewing a bunch of juvenile insults he neither understood nor had any basis for. And no, actually, Malin is WRONG. I learn more everyday, I've already learned that you are an arrogant ignorant little pathetic moron who cannot seem to even attempt to discuss anything in a rational adult manner.
Dear oh dear, such child-like behaviour. I suppose when you have no other means of retaliation, crap like this is the best you can do.
Glas [/B]
Retaliate? Why retaliate? This is a war? Funny, I thought this was a bulletin board. And this was a discussion. Retaliation is what you might call your pitiful attempts at arguing your point. But you have no point, nor do you have any basis for a point. The best you can do is what you did in your very first post, make a complete prettythang of yourself by hurling insults. In fact, by your third post you were reading so well that you were so stupid, ignorant, arrogant, and careless as to attribute a quote to the wrong person. Perhaps YOU should learn to read, understand, and comprehend. Perhaps YOU should learn to discuss things like a rational adult instead of like a 4 year old having a tantrum because mommy took his candy. Perhaps YOU should learn some manners.
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@ Martlet: Again, complete ignorance. Btw, one of the guys on FH is 19. He said he was scared to post here cos it would make him feel old in amongst all you.
LOL!
Again not that it is relevant, but im 30. What it does show yet again tho is your own ignorance and presumptions about others.
@ Mal: As ever, nice post mate.
Glas
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Oh I've been reading it, all of it, but evidently you haven't.
Again, presumptions and ignorance. Is that the only manner of speaking to someone you know of?
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
No, the U.S. does NOT have anywhere near the highest homicide rate in the world. Take a look at Rhodesia, or at least half a dozen other coutries in that region. I love it, an IDIOT, that get's his facts from a stupid self promoting jackprettythang like Michael Moore and calls it fact. Tell you what, stupid prettythang, stop watching the movies, and read a freaking book. In fact, read several. Michael Moore has been proven to be a liar, and his "facts" have been proven false. But since you only watch what you want to, and read even less, but then only what you want to, you wouldn't know that. If Michael Moore is the best source you have regarding the U.S., you are very ill equipped to argue anything at all. Are you going to quote Fonda or Streisand next? How about Sheen, or perhaps the Dixie Chicks? Maybe you'll quote Sean Penn. They are ENTERTAINERS (and that's using the term very loosely) you little moron, they are not experts on anything at all. They don't even have a solid grasp on the facts, nevermind reality. On the otherhand, they seem to be just your type. Arrogant, ignorant, dishonest, uninformed, and living in a dream world. Hey, why don't you quote Rosie o'Donnell on gun control too?
First off, arre you actually proud of the fact that the only countries who come close to your levels of homicide is a place that, on the whole, is lawless? Oh wait, now i see the connection ;)
Also, you are correct, alot of what was in Michael Moore's film was fabricated. What wasnt, however, was the pure and simple fact that somewhere like Canada has guns like you, but has NOWHERE NEAR the same problems your country has.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Roll your eyes all you want. Your ignorance is truly showing. You expected anything other than insults? After you came into somewhere you've never been before and spew your juvenile garbage and baseless insults? There is no racism here you little idiot. Not a single example. No one has been attacked on the basis of race. They've been soundly thrashed on the basis of their opinions though.
Okay lets look at the first bit. 'There is no racism in here you little idiot':
airhead... It was a serious question... I know about the russian community in Sacramento. Is there a russian community in the states that anyone knows of that isn't 90% or more criminal?
or what about:
My brother in law is a Captain with Sacramento Pee Dee and he says they're into chop shops, drug sales, all the usual good stuff the first generations of any immigrants do.
Funnily enough, from someone called Airhead. If the cap fits i suppose...
And here's one of millions i could find to highlight the ignorance:
Hmmmmmmmm, you are a true patriot of your motherland
So, you want to rewrite that part i quoted? ;)
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Well, since you AREN'T ashamed, why don't you post your location? Did I threaten you? No. Did I even infer a threat? No. Would I bother to walk across the street to fight you? No.
What part of 'Scottish' dont you understand?
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Oh, and ignorant prettythang, last I looked, Scotland was a region, not a freakin race, but then if you weren't so stupid, you'd KNOW that wouldn't you?
Ah, you noticed at last ;) Btw, is it now a 'racial' thing with you. I thought we were talking about countries and where people are from? You unravelling something about yourself here?? :eek:
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Oh, regarding this war, ask the commander of British forces what the U.S. has done, genius. You're opinino on the war is about as educated and informed as your oyther opinions. Been watching the BBC and Al Jazeera?
Better still, why not hear what the guys in the British tank you blew up thought about it? I know exactly what they think about your country's military ;) Something along the lines of 'reckless, gung-ho, trigger-happy' etc.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
No, Malin has respect because unlike you, at least he did not come in here spewing a bunch of juvenile insults he neither understood nor had any basis for. And no, actually, Malin is WRONG. I learn more everyday, I've already learned that you are an arrogant ignorant little pathetic moron who cannot seem to even attempt to discuss anything in a rational adult manner.
I really love the way you can say 'arrogant ignorant little pathetic moron' and 'cannot seem to attempt top discuss anything in a rational manner' in the same sentence. You really outdone yourself that time!
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Retaliate? Why retaliate? This is a war? Funny, I thought this was a bulletin board. And this was a discussion. Retaliation is what you might call your pitiful attempts at arguing your point. But you have no point, nor do you have any basis for a point. The best you can do is what you did in your very first post, make a complete prettythang of yourself by hurling insults. In fact, by your third post you were reading so well that you were so stupid, ignorant, arrogant, and careless as to attribute a quote to the wrong person. Perhaps YOU should learn to read, understand, and comprehend. Perhaps YOU should learn to discuss things like a rational adult instead of like a 4 year old having a tantrum because mommy took his candy. Perhaps YOU should learn some manners.
Perhaps if you werent all so completely stupid, people wouldnt try to highlight that fact from the very start ;)
Glas
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Malin, first off, just call me "Hilts".
You missed my point entirely. The reason people here are pissed at the europeans and don't give a **** what they think is because they are sick of the european attitude. I'm not really defending anyone, but rather pointing out the fact that you are saying the reason europeans are pissed at Americans is because of the attitude we have. And I'm telling you for a fact that the reason for the attitude we have is the attitude the europeans have. We're sick and tired of having arrogant salamanders telling us how rude and uncivilized we are after they've shown the world for all of history how they act.
If you did some research on how much BULL$H!T Boroda has posted here, you'd understand completely how sick everyone was of his crap. But what you've done instead is come in on the last part of the conversation and taken exception at everyone BUT Boroda.
You assumptions are too many to list, but here, for the short list, try this:
You assume that everyone is trashing Boroda for no reason, without knowing his history here.
You assume from one sided knowledge we have a horrible crime rate and people are being shot in the street like an old western.
You assume that you and you alone, with the exception of europe, have all the solutions, and that we know nothing.
You assume that I'm attacking you because you are european.
You assume that people here are idiots, but you know nothing of the history of the situation you attempt to comment on.
You assume that we only read or watch U.S. slanted news.
You assume we swallow everything from that news without question.
You assume that we know nothing of anything outside the U.S.
You assume that we blindly follow wherever the government leads.
You assume that we are ignorant and that you by comparison are omnipotent.
That is enough for now.
As far as what I said about europe goes, that goes directly back to the holier than thou attitude europe has towards the U.S., and is the EXACT cause for the attitude in the U.S. that you are upset by.
And by the way, it is pretty much a proven fact that the reasons for what the French, Germans, and Russians did in the UN has NOTHING to do with the attitude of the U.S., and EVERYTHING to do with greed, averice, envy, and plain simple dishonesty. All three coutries were in bed with Saddam, it's a proven fact. France is envious of the position the U.S. hold in the world, it's a proven fact. The fact that now France is praising the downfall of Saddam, while Germany says that with Saddam's downfall comes their time of political victory, should tell you something. Does it? Exactly what else is the U.S. supposed to get from these facts?
Oh, and the nasty drivel of people like Glas does NOTHING at all to further your position nor that of europe in general. His attempts to side with you bring huge amounts of discredit to you and your position, and yet I've not seen you say ANYTHING about the trash he is spewing. For most that is guilt by association, whether you like it or not, and whether it is right or wrong. The mere fact that you say NOTHING about him, while you attack people from the U.S. says more about the european attitude than you could possibly understand. You say I defend those in the U.S. who are wrong, and yet you utterly fail to realize you do the same for Glas and his ilk. Again, I give you the reason for the anti europe attitude of the average U.S. citizen.
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do these "new" members even have AH accounts? If not, why on earth are they here?
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well... at least we can all agree that the russian community in Sacramento is rife with criminals and that boroda is a theif?
I still haven't seen any of these examples of 'racism' that is being spoken of... if disliking the government of a country is 'racism' then it would seem that no posters here are free from guilt.
lazs
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Originally posted by Glas
Again, presumptions and ignorance. Is that the only manner of speaking to someone you know of?
Who started off that way and continues to this point on the same level?
First off, arre you actually proud of the fact that the only countries who come close to your levels of homicide is a place that, on the whole, is lawless? Oh wait, now i see the connection ;)
[/B]
Convenient how you now ignore the fact that you, in your ignorance, claimed the U.S. has the highest homicide rate in the world.
Also convenient that you do not understand that the homicide rate isn't nearly so high as you seem to believe it is.
Also, you are correct, alot of what was in Michael Moore's film was fabricated. What wasnt, however, was the pure and simple fact that somewhere like Canada has guns like you, but has NOWHERE NEAR the same problems your country has.
[/B]
Again, you are WRONG. Canada has no where NEAR the number of guns per capita as the U.S. Nor does it have anywhere NEAR the freedom to own them as the U.S. Go get some more facts, the ones you have are all useless.
Okay lets look at the first bit. 'There is no racism in here you little idiot':
or what about:
Funnily enough, from someone called Airhead. If the cap fits i suppose...
And here's one of millions i could find to highlight the ignorance:
So, you want to rewrite that part i quoted? ;)
[/B]
YOU accused me of racism didn't you. But you have no proof.
Oh, and I believe the "true patriot of you motherland" is a statement of nationalism, not racism. Stop confusing race with region and/or country.
If a large Russian immigrant community runs a chop shop, that's fact, not racism.
What part of 'Scottish' dont you understand?
[/B]
What part of "Scotland is not a race it's a region" don't YOU understand?
Ah, you noticed at last ;) Btw, is it now a 'racial' thing with you. I thought we were talking about countries and where people are from? You unravelling something about yourself here?? :eek:
[/B]
I noticed the first time you mentioned it, if you read the post correctly, you'd see that.
Further, I was not the one who came running in the room slobbering and screaming "racism, and ignorance", that was YOU. Care to deny it? YOU made racism an issue here, I only called you on it.
Better still, why not hear what the guys in the British tank you blew up thought about it? I know exactly what they think about your country's military ;) Something along the lines of 'reckless, gung-ho, trigger-happy' etc.
[/B]
Not to cast dispersions on the brave and valiant British forces in the conflict in Iraq, but why don't you ask the two dead Brits in the Challenger tank that was shot by the other Challenger tank?
By the way, since you decided to bring the military and friendly fire into this, make sure you make some sort of comment on my bringing up the most publicized British friendly fire incident. You wouldn't want to change your pattern and tactics now would you.
While you're at it, why don't you calculate the number of British forces compared to the number of U.S. forces and do a direct comparison on the friendly fire incidents?
Your lack of respect for the military forces involved is very obvious. I find your use of friendly fire incidents in an attempt to prove your arguements particularly disgusting. Sad that you would attempt to drag honorable soldiers into this crap you spew.
I really love the way you can say 'arrogant ignorant little pathetic moron' and 'cannot seem to attempt top discuss anything in a rational manner' in the same sentence. You really outdone yourself that time!
[/B]
You bring it on yourself. Take a look back at the way you've conducted yourself from the very first entrance you made to this thread and expelain to everyone how you should be treated any better than you've treated others. I merely stated my contempt at your level of intelligence and discussion, in the only terms I felt you could understand, since that was the only way you could seem to express yourself.
Perhaps if you werent all so completely stupid, people wouldnt try to highlight that fact from the very start ;)
Glas [/B]
Well, again, YOU were the one who came in spewing crap at the best of your capabilities. You express your disdain for those who would cast dispersions on an entire group of people, and then you say we are all retarded and we are all completely stupid. Fabulous statement for your credibility. You have NONE. Again, you came in spewing the crap, you really shouldn't expect anyone to reply in any other manner, since they can only know for certain that you can understand the same level of drivel that you spew. You brought it all on yourself, blame yourself first.
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Originally posted by Dnil
do these "new" members even have AH accounts? If not, why on earth are they here?
In all honesty, I don't have a current active AH account, so I'd have to leave too. I hope to be back in the air soon, when I get my new computer finished.
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Originally posted by Glas
@ Martlet: Again, complete ignorance. Btw, one of the guys on FH is 19. He said he was scared to post here cos it would make him feel old in amongst all you.
LOL!
Again not that it is relevant, but im 30. What it does show yet again tho is your own ignorance and presumptions about others.
@ Mal: As ever, nice post mate.
Glas
Actually, it is you who is showing your ignorance and making presumptions.
I was referring to intellectual age, not physical.
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Hi Hilts.
You assume that everyone is trashing Boroda for no reason, without knowing his history here.
I pointed out that it was unfortuate that more people from Russia didn't belong to this forum so you would have wider access to the views of individuals from that area and have a broader view on which to base your opinions of Russia. I've done a fair amount of Boroda trashing myself in the past but I have access to a wider audience so I know not all Russians are like him. I think it was you yourself who quoted my line about being forced into defending him.
You assume from one sided knowledge we have a horrible crime rate and people are being shot in the street like an old western.
I didn't say that and if I implied it I'm sorry but you do have a problem with gun related crime same as we do, if you want to argue about gun control for and against then I suggest a new topic as the last discussion I was in about that ran into over 200 posts.
You assume that you and you alone, with the exception of europe, have all the solutions, and that we know nothing.
LOL, probably because I'm an arrogant egomaniac, but I wouldn't agree about Europe as being an exception.
You assume that I'm attacking you because you are european.
I did make the assumption but you trashing Europe after quoting my reasons for not saying where I came from led me into this line of thinking.
You assume that people here are idiots, but you know nothing of the history of the situation you attempt to comment on.
No I said some people here are idiots.
You assume that we only read or watch U.S. slanted news
You assume we swallow everything from that news without question.
Actually I implied that 80% of the worlds population in it's entirety read slanted news and swallow it, this wasn't aimed exclusively at America.
You assume that we know nothing of anything outside the U.S.
Some people here are giving me that impression yes. Would you like me to quote examples?
You assume that we blindly follow wherever the government leads.
LOL, sadly most people do regardless of country of origin.
On the subject of Europe the position of being against the war is fairly easy to understand.
You mentioned our history being 2000 years old and full of wars, atrocities etc. Yep you're right I don't dispute this. The point is that it's taken us 2000 years of war to realise it sucks.
FYI, I live in London, when I was born rationing was just coming to an end 20 years after WWII, both my parents were children in London during the war and my grandparents saw both wars. Areas of central London up until 10 years ago still remained in the same condition as during the blitz, 100's of 1000's of people in the south of England still live in the cheap prefabricated buildings thrown up after WWII to provide homes for those bombed out.
When you live with the legacy of 50 years ago in your face everyday then it makes you very anti war.
Malin
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On the subject of Glas:
and yet I've not seen you say ANYTHING about the trash he is spewing. For most that is guilt by association, whether you like it or not, and whether it is right or wrong. The mere fact that you say NOTHING about him, while you attack people from the U.S. says more about the european attitude than you could possibly understand.
Why should I when the two of you going for it bigtime is more than proving my point that people on both sides of the atlantic should take the time to understand more of how the otherside live before making accusations.
However:
Scotland is not a race it's a region
The Scottish as much as I hate to admit it are a race. Unlike the English, Americans, French, etc the Scottish havn't been diluted by conquest, immigration like we have. Glas could probably trace his ancestry back a 1000 years and still find out hes Scottish (pureblood). Me I go back further than 500 years and things start to get a bit dodgy.
This would also explain why I'm giving him so much leeway, all that inbreeding had to have some negative effects on his personality (only funning with you Glas).
Also pretty clever of us British to send the Scottish and Irish out to fight in Iraq for us don't you think (RAOFL).
Malin
P.S. You still seem to assume I'm attacking America, why? I thought it was pretty obvious I was attacking small minded people regardless of race/colour/creed
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... at least we can all agree that the russian community in Sacramento is rife with criminals and that boroda is a theif?
lazs
The Russian Immigrant Community in Sacramento has a higher crime rate than the rest of the community, yes. I don't know if Baroda is a thief tho, at least any more than I am as I've pirated all my music CDs off Kaaza.
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Respect to you Airhead for your honesty.
Malin
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Malin, no one in their right mind is PRO war. War is a last resort. Unfortunately, there are still those in this world who are evil, and dangerous, and nothing other than war will stop or remove them.
Saddam was one of them. There was a military presence in the Gulf for twelve years. Even with 250K troops on his doorstep Saddam still played the game. The fact that France, Germany, and Russia did nothing to stop him, and in fact by their actions encouraged him, is obvious. Containment was folly. Diplomacy was folly.
How absurd was it for France, Germany, and Russia to remove the threat of military action (the ONLY thing Saddam EVER responded to) and then blame the U.S. and to a lesser degree the UK for failed diplomacy? Who failed? He was told he'd get his bellybutton kicked if he didn't comply. When faced with 250K troops he STARTED to comply, SOMEWHAT. Then what happened? France said "we will not support military action against Saddam", followed closely by "we will veto any resolution for military action against Saddam". THAT is the diplomatic failure. Can you not see that?
I can pretty much guarantee you that we spent a whole lot more keeping him "contained" for 12 years than we spent removing him. How long could you reasonably expect us to continue to spend that way?
Do you think it fair for the UN to demand that the U.S. spend that way indefinately? You must acknowledge that the U.S. bears the brunt of the cost in operations like that. How long must U.S. soldiers, sailors, and airmen serve away from home in the Gulf to "contain" Saddam? How much must we pay? Yes, I know, Saddam is gone now. But you see the point?
Do you not understand what a drain things like that are on the U.S. economy? Do you REALLY think that the taxes we pay to support that don't stunt economic growth? Do you REALLY think the UN is HELPING our economy with such crap? I think you are a lot smarter than that.
I've studied what happened in Europe in WWII. I've BEEN to Germany. I know veterans of the war personally, including my own father. I have friends from AW and other places that were children during the blitz on London. I don't LIKE war, I don't WANT war, but I understood there was no other way.
Malin, I have very close personal friends and family in the military, do you REALLY think I want to send them off to risk their lives? Surely you are smart enough to know we didn't WANT war. How long did we stay out of the two world wars? Do you have ANY IDEA what this has done INSIDE the U.S.?
It is all well and good to be against war. But to hide from the inevitable and deny it when it stares you in the face is pure folly.
There are evil people in this world, and there have been so long as man has existed. They will not respond to diplomacy. They will not be satisfied by appeasement. They will only be dealt with by force. That is all they understand. Hitler was NOT the last of his kind, nor will Saddam be.
Oh, and by the way, guns are inanimate objects. A gun is incapable of acting by itself. It cannot shoot anyone by itself. Only when you solve the issue of man's inhumanity to man will you solve the problem of violent crime.
When people learn to stop blaming things like inanimate objects for their problems, and face the real issue, man himself, then progress will be made. And not until.
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Malin, as far as you attacking America goes, my point is that you seem to be very adept and pointing out the flaws of the Americans here, while you seem to be quite lenient on your european friends. If you cannot see that bias, look again. And again, that is my point. You say America has an image problem in europe, and I say the reason we have the attitude that you say causes that image problem is because we finally got tired of europeans constantly criticizing us for things that are not nearly so bad as they are guilty of. For a region of the world that gave us Hitler, and a couple dozen other like him, you seem to be awfly fond of pointing out OTHER regions problems. The truth is the majority of those who live in the U.S. would prefer to be left alone. But it seems we get dragged into crap that is not much of our making.
The reason I don't really give a **** what most europeans think is I'm getting really tired of salamanders who elect clowns like Chirac and Schroder talking about the U.S. and electing Bush. At least Bush and Blair have the brains and the balls to stand up for what is right and get the job done, which is a lot more than I can say for a lot of the others.
Let's just put it this way, with two examples.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Do not attempt to remove the splinter from your neighbor's hand without first getting the 2x4 out of your own eye.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Malin, no one in their right mind is PRO war. War is a last resort. Unfortunately, there are still those in this world who are evil, and dangerous, and nothing other than war will stop or remove them.
Saddam was one of them. There was a military presence in the Gulf for twelve years. Even with 250K troops on his doorstep Saddam still played the game. The fact that France, Germany, and Russia did nothing to stop him, and in fact by their actions encouraged him, is obvious. Containment was folly. Diplomacy was folly.
How absurd was it for France, Germany, and Russia to remove the threat of military action (the ONLY thing Saddam EVER responded to) and then blame the U.S. and to a lesser degree the UK for failed diplomacy? Who failed? He was told he'd get his bellybutton kicked if he didn't comply. When faced with 250K troops he STARTED to comply, SOMEWHAT. Then what happened? France said "we will not support military action against Saddam", followed closely by "we will veto any resolution for military action against Saddam". THAT is the diplomatic failure. Can you not see that?
I can pretty much guarantee you that we spent a whole lot more keeping him "contained" for 12 years than we spent removing him. How long could you reasonably expect us to continue to spend that way?
Do you think it fair for the UN to demand that the U.S. spend that way indefinately? You must acknowledge that the U.S. bears the brunt of the cost in operations like that. How long must U.S. soldiers, sailors, and airmen serve away from home in the Gulf to "contain" Saddam? How much must we pay? Yes, I know, Saddam is gone now. But you see the point?
Do you not understand what a drain things like that are on the U.S. economy? Do you REALLY think that the taxes we pay to support that don't stunt economic growth? Do you REALLY think the UN is HELPING our economy with such crap? I think you are a lot smarter than that.
I've studied what happened in Europe in WWII. I've BEEN to Germany. I know veterans of the war personally, including my own father. I have friends from AW and other places that were children during the blitz on London. I don't LIKE war, I don't WANT war, but I understood there was no other way.
Malin, I have very close personal friends and family in the military, do you REALLY think I want to send them off to risk their lives? Surely you are smart enough to know we didn't WANT war. How long did we stay out of the two world wars? Do you have ANY IDEA what this has done INSIDE the U.S.?
It is all well and good to be against war. But to hide from the inevitable and deny it when it stares you in the face is pure folly.
There are evil people in this world, and there have been so long as man has existed. They will not respond to diplomacy. They will not be satisfied by appeasement. They will only be dealt with by force. That is all they understand. Hitler was NOT the last of his kind, nor will Saddam be.
Oh, and by the way, guns are inanimate objects. A gun is incapable of acting by itself. It cannot shoot anyone by itself. Only when you solve the issue of man's inhumanity to man will you solve the problem of violent crime.
When people learn to stop blaming things like inanimate objects for their problems, and face the real issue, man himself, then progress will be made. And not until.
Btw just for your info, if you go to the FH forums you will see pretty much the exact same stuff from me as you have posted above.
I actually do believe in this war, im glad Bush and Blair had the balls to go ahead. Its costing my country dear but I can live with that, cos I know we are doing the right thing.
What I do hate, however, is the stuff I read at the start of this thread. A gang of people arguing they are correct and winning that argument through sheer weight of numbers, regardless of the facts.
I suffer the same crap in FH, although funnily enough im the one keeping the coalition side of the argument whilst everyone else is completely anti-war.
I accept not everyone is racist on this board, but there are some. There is however a high level of ignorance and arrogance imho. I guess I like fighting fire with fire, and to be honest I didnt see the point of trying to put together an intelligent post because you would only disregard what I feel are the facts and attack me simply for the fact I didnt share your views on some things.
Its amazing, to me, how this board is so like FH, but on the other side of the divide so to speak. Joining them together would be, well, interesting to say the least.
Regardless, apologies to the more reasonable people on this board that i tainted with the brush of the few.
Glas
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"I suffer the same crap in FH, although funnily enough im the one keeping the coalition side of the argument whilst everyone else is completely anti-war.
I accept not everyone is racist on this board, but there are some. There is however a high level of ignorance and arrogance imho. I guess I like fighting fire with fire, and to be honest I didnt see the point of trying to put together an intelligent post because you would only disregard what I feel are the facts and attack me simply for the fact I didnt share your views on some things.
Its amazing, to me, how this board is so like FH, but on the other side of the divide so to speak. Joining them together would be, well, interesting to say the least."
lmao if you guys are against Glas belief, you would send a sniper to shut me :D
I'm one of those who strongly oppose the invation (yeah, the thing you know as "War").
I know I'll never agree with Glas view (at least in a near future) but even if I don't share his thoughts I would never dear to call him "stupid" nor "brainwashed in propaganda" no matter what horrible things he said (from my point of view) in other forum.
And I bet he will do the same for me.
That's how the people try to live in peace, we accept eachother and we leave our differences aside. That's what it's called "respect and tolerance" something that you guys lack of.
People with your mind are those who will keep the world in war leading us to a global caos (just like now!). You have no desire of peace, get real! all you do is support Bush in his holy crusade to conquer the world.
Your narrow view of the situation is very scary, as I said in other place:
"I personally fear more this attitude and mentality of the people in a country like USA where they have such huge power, than a terrorist suicide bomber in my backyard. "
All you believe in are lies, all lies. Don't believe the media, they are all controlled by the government! All you know is bull****.
And you think we are just a few who oppose the war, but guess what?? There's a world outside your borders who is against you!
Yeah, not only Europeans!
This is the 21st Century guys! and you act like dumb apes! (poor apes they don't diserve this humilliation).
Racists thoughts, arrogance... this must change, it's 2003 not medieval ages.
Stand up guys and face Bush, claim your country and let him hear what the true meaning of Democracy is... don't let him lead you to the destruction of your nation, you didn't choose him! it's never late!
Thanks for reading this post.
Screw Bush
Peace.
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Originally posted by Spaceball
"I suffer the same crap in FH, although funnily enough im the one keeping the coalition side of the argument whilst everyone else is completely anti-war.
I accept not everyone is racist on this board, but there are some. There is however a high level of ignorance and arrogance imho. I guess I like fighting fire with fire, and to be honest I didnt see the point of trying to put together an intelligent post because you would only disregard what I feel are the facts and attack me simply for the fact I didnt share your views on some things.
Its amazing, to me, how this board is so like FH, but on the other side of the divide so to speak. Joining them together would be, well, interesting to say the least."
lmao if you guys are against Glas belief, you would send a sniper to shut me :D
I'm one of those who strongly oppose the invation (yeah, the thing you know as "War").
I know I'll never agree with Glas view (at least in a near future) but even if I don't share his thoughts I would never dear to call him "stupid" nor "brainwashed in propaganda" no matter what horrible things he said (from my point of view) in other forum.
And I bet he will do the same for me.
That's how the people try to live in peace, we accept eachother and we leave our differences aside. That's what it's called "respect and tolerance" something that you guys lack of.
People with your mind are those who will keep the world in war leading us to a global caos (just like now!). You have no desire of peace, get real! all you do is support Bush in his holy crusade to conquer the world.
Your narrow view of the situation is very scary, as I said in other place:
"I personally fear more this attitude and mentality of the people in a country like USA where they have such huge power, than a terrorist suicide bomber in my backyard. "
All you believe in are lies, all lies. Don't believe the media, they are all controlled by the government! All you know is bull****.
And you think we are just a few who oppose the war, but guess what?? There's a world outside your borders who is against you!
Yeah, not only Europeans!
This is the 21st Century guys! and you act like dumb apes! (poor apes they don't diserve this humilliation).
Racists thoughts, arrogance... this must change, it's 2003 not medieval ages.
Stand up guys and face Bush, claim your country and let him hear what the true meaning of Democracy is... don't let him lead you to the destruction of your nation, you didn't choose him! it's never late!
Thanks for reading this post.
Screw Bush
Peace.
Congratulations on a fabulous drive by spewing.
Ignorant troll. Get better bait and a smaller hook.
And take your spew and drivel somehwere else.
Exactly who invited you here anyway?
Further, who here asked for your opinion?
Thanks for polluting this board with your spew of garbage and drivel.
Screw yourself and keep the ba$tards in the family inbred moron.
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ouch, that hurt all the way to your balls
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I forsee a thread locking .
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small child: "mommy, make the bad men stop fighting! "
mother: "hush dear....they are busy measuring their ding ding's "
-Lute
III/JG26 9ST WM's
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Originally posted by flyingaround
small child: "mommy, make the bad men stop fighting! "
mother: "hush dear....they are busy measuring their ding ding's "
-Lute
III/JG26 9ST WM's
......and they applied Suave soap to lubricate their ding-dings:D
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Suave is shampoo, 'tard .
And among hair care products it is unsurpassed in the field of virtual aerial combat .
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Suave is also a body wash soap LOL
http://www.suave.com/whatsnew/whatsnew.asp
Suave sucks and it makes my skin feel like an alligator. I use Dove instead:D
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I don't think I've stated anywhere whether I support the war or not.
However, whilst removing Saddam may be the right thing to do it won't remove the threat of terrorism both you and I live under, even in years to come the benefits of removing saddam are dubious.
Terrorism is bred generally through ignorance, lack of education and many other factors. For the largest number of Terrorists per square mile look at Israel and Palestine. Both sides and all of us are equally guilty in creating terrorists and we all refuse to admit it.
Look at 9/11 and what happened, you had people throwing themselves out of the windows to die rather than face the horrors in the building. At the time and afterwards I still feel a sense of horror at that but consider the suicide bombers in Palestine and why they do it and you will see similarities. They have been persecuted, seen friends and relatives die agonising deaths or suffer horrible injuries, suffered starvation and depravation.
End result such deeps feelings of frustration, anger and despair that the thought of blowing themselves up and taking a busload of Israeli's with them as a form of protest is attractive.
If you take the time to learn about them, talk to relatives, friends of past suicide bombers then you learn just how normal these people are but they things they have seen and endured really does make gives you a feeling of despair that you cannot do anything to save them.
These normal everyday people have tried peaceful protest, they've tried lobbying the UN, they've asked for help from us and we've ignored them and left them no alternatives other than this for them to try and make the point but even now we still don't see why they do it.
I'm not talking about goverments, I'm talking about everyday people like you, me and the man in the cornershop selling papers who are living in hell and killing yourself is better than living in misery.
Sort that mess out and then theres hope for the future of mankind, until then we are all guilty by our superior attitudes and ignorance of aiding terrorism.
Malin
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Originally posted by Malin
I don't think I've stated anywhere whether I support the war or not.
However, whilst removing Saddam may be the right thing to do it won't remove the threat of terrorism both you and I live under, even in years to come the benefits of removing saddam are dubious.
Try telling the average Iraqi citizen that removing Saddam had little or no benefit. If Bush holds true to his word (no reason to think he won't), the U.S. will be out of there as soon as it is stable and they can elect their own government. That will do more than anything to convince the Arab world that we don't WANT to conquer them or colonize them.
Terrorism is bred generally through ignorance, lack of education and many other factors. For the largest number of Terrorists per square mile look at Israel and Palestine. Both sides and all of us are equally guilty in creating terrorists and we all refuse to admit it.
[/B]
You should really study Israel a LOT more closely. It isn't ignorance that drives the "Palestinians". It's fear. Arafat is Saddam on a smaller scale, and backed by more small parties (read: Hamas, Hezbolla, Islamic Jihad, PLO, PLA, and others). The average "Palestinian" doesn't have much choice, Arafat and the rest keep them in their current condition for the express purpose of creating the "cause" against Israel. And Arafat is a freakin EGYPTIAN for crying out loud and NOT a "Palestinian". They manufacture those homicide bombers. They ARE educated, just not with the truth. If you think the Israel-"Palestine" problem can be solved without crushing Arafat and the rest I listed on an order of magnitude about ten times that of what was done to Saddam, you are in for a rude surprise.
Look at 9/11 and what happened, you had people throwing themselves out of the windows to die rather than face the horrors in the building. At the time and afterwards I still feel a sense of horror at that but consider the suicide bombers in Palestine and why they do it and you will see similarities. They have been persecuted, seen friends and relatives die agonising deaths or suffer horrible injuries, suffered starvation and depravation.
End result such deeps feelings of frustration, anger and despair that the thought of blowing themselves up and taking a busload of Israeli's with them as a form of protest is attractive.
If you take the time to learn about them, talk to relatives, friends of past suicide bombers then you learn just how normal these people are but they things they have seen and endured really does make gives you a feeling of despair that you cannot do anything to save them.
[/B]
You've got a lot to learn if you think the UN can re educate those people peacefully and we'll all sing Kumbaya and live happily ever after. Fanatical terrorism responds to one thing and one thing only. Overwhelming force. The people responsible for the terrorism are not "average Palestinians", they are fanatical terrorists who hate western democracy and everything it espouses.
These normal everyday people have tried peaceful protest, they've tried lobbying the UN, they've asked for help from us and we've ignored them and left them no alternatives other than this for them to try and make the point but even now we still don't see why they do it.
I'm not talking about goverments, I'm talking about everyday people like you, me and the man in the cornershop selling papers who are living in hell and killing yourself is better than living in misery.
Sort that mess out and then theres hope for the future of mankind, until then we are all guilty by our superior attitudes and ignorance of aiding terrorism.
Malin [/B]
You couldn't be more wrong. Study history. They (the "Palestinians") were abandoned by their Arab brethren after they tried to destroy Israel, which is a sovereign nation recognized by every major nation in the world EXCEPT the Arab nations that tried to destroy it. The "Palestinians" were refused entry or were driven out of Jordan and other countries by their own Arab brethren (see Black September), because the Arabs did not WANT them. King Hussien of Jordan FORCED them out of Jordan. If you believe that homicide bombers are just everyday people who are opressed and despondent you couldn't be more wrong. They are EDUCATED to believe that all that is not Islam is their enemy, and that they will be rewarded with paradise for killing themselves. That is as far from average and ordinary as you can get. If it were average and ordinary there would be tens of thousands of them and there are not.
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Ok here is a math problem for you...
how many peacful marchers marching peacefully (except for random and wantom property damage) marhing how many miles for how many years, will it take to make a despot like saddam say "oh... you are right, I will voluntarily stop feeding people into the shredder feet first and close all the terrorist training camps in my country and send all the terrorists home." "I won't pursue a nucleur weopons program any longer"
The answer should be in years... rounded off to the nearest decade.
One thing tho... cities, big cities, are the focus of terrorist attacks... big cities vote liberal and screw up our country... NY is less liberal now... perhaps a few suitcase nukes for LA and Chicago would help in future elections?
lazs
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You guys are constantly talking about what kind of a threat Iraq was to the US of A, ok in the light of 11/9 they were a threat, but still no direct threat, the direct threat was Osama.
Saddam Hussein is a media-horny man, he loves to stand in the spot lights, his little torn up army posed no threat to surrounding nations, but YET you invade Iraq. To install a democracy, and to destroy his weapons of mass destruction, well then why don't you destroy yours? Weapons of mass destruction most likely won't be used unless it is to retaliate, Saddam is not THAT crazy.
So you risk your lives without gaining anything from it, because Osama still lives, and Iraqs WMD are probably transferred long since the war has begun... you're just increasing the threat
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Originally posted by Zembla
You guys are constantly talking about what kind of a threat Iraq was to the US of A, ok in the light of 11/9 they were a threat, but still no direct threat, the direct threat was Osama.
Saddam Hussein is a media-horny man, he loves to stand in the spot lights, his little torn up army posed no threat to surrounding nations, but YET you invade Iraq. To install a democracy, and to destroy his weapons of mass destruction, well then why don't you destroy yours? Weapons of mass destruction most likely won't be used unless it is to retaliate, Saddam is not THAT crazy.
So you risk your lives without gaining anything from it, because Osama still lives, and Iraqs WMD are probably transferred long since the war has begun... you're just increasing the threat
Do you actually READ what you post? You are so anti American, you don't even realize you make no sense, and discredit your argument WITHIN your own argument.
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lol, so I'm anti-American because I say a thing like that?
I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-Bush
No you see what you call being contradictory, I call being nuanced, apparently you've always been radical enough not to be confronted by nuances...
And of course no, I DON'T read what I post :rolleyes:
try again...
Don't you think it is funny to see that nobody really replies to your statements directly any longer? Go build a sand castle or something kiddo...
BTW, do you actually read further than the first three lines of something someone posts?
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Go "spread the Z" somewhere else. Your lack of knowledge is beginning to become terribly annoying. Your understanding of how terrorism and certain regimes that support them work together is completely non existent. Or, just as likely, you just don't want to admit that the job is being done the way it should be.
First off, Saddam Hussien provided aid and comfort, known to include training and supplies, for around a dozen terrorist groups known to operate world wide. Second, Saddam Hussien publicly offered rewards in excess of $25K for the terrorists and families of terrorists who committed acts of terrorism against the U.S. and its allies worldwide. If you don't consider that to be a direct threat (and you obviously do not), then your opinion is completely worthless, because you lack the intelligence and the common sense to form an informed opinion.
Why don't you get busy in your own country and lobby to get the UN that you love so dearly to move its world HQ to Brussels or somewhere else in Belgium?
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Originally posted by Zembla
I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-Bush
Oh I see, so by you being "anti-Bush" anything that he does no matter what you will stil be opposed to it because you are "anti-Bush."
And it isn't it hillarious how somebody who states he is no matter what completly against one person (anti-Bush) brags about being "nuanced."
So whoever you are I think you are being a short sighted, ignorant and hateful hypocrite.
"" ya fool...
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Zembla
Saddam Hussein is a media-horny man, he loves to stand in the spot lights, his little torn up army posed no threat to surrounding nations, but YET you invade Iraq.
Huh?His army posed no threat to surrounding nations?
Ok,let's refresh your memory.
In 1980,Hussein's army invaded Iraq after he regarded the 1975 treaty as a "truce",and not a definitive settlemant.
In 1991,Hussein's army invaded Kuwait.
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Do these people who say "I am not against the american people, I am against the american government.", realize that in america the people ARE the government ?
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Try telling the average Iraqi citizen that removing Saddam had little or no benefit. If Bush holds true to his word (no reason to think he won't), the U.S. will be out of there as soon as it is stable and they can elect their own government. That will do more than anything to convince the Arab world that we don't WANT to conquer them or colonize them.
If Bush holds true to his word? There has been alot of ifs and buts recently in the media about the USs position with regards to the future of Iraq. Who will rule it, coaltions or muslims? Muslims? Will it be shia or sunni? Shia is the majority, so what faction of the Shia do you choose? Is it the faction of the guy who was just murdered by other Shias days after returning to Iraq from London? Or what about the warlords in the township next to him?
Or else maybe the threat that if you install the only regime possible which is Iraqi and fair (Shia) is also the religion of its neighbour, Iran? These people dont give a f*ck about borders, religion is their only vice and if 2 countries bordering each other have the same religious tendencies, there will be a common bond.
Remember, Iran is also part of the 'Axis of evil'. So what then?
I really fear this is questions which, i will give Bush/Blair the benefit of the doubt they have considered, but I doubt very much they have found a solution. Cos there is none.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You should really study Israel a LOT more closely. It isn't ignorance that drives the "Palestinians". It's fear. Arafat is Saddam on a smaller scale, and backed by more small parties (read: Hamas, Hezbolla, Islamic Jihad, PLO, PLA, and others). The average "Palestinian" doesn't have much choice, Arafat and the rest keep them in their current condition for the express purpose of creating the "cause" against Israel. And Arafat is a freakin EGYPTIAN for crying out loud and NOT a "Palestinian". They manufacture those homicide bombers. They ARE educated, just not with the truth. If you think the Israel-"Palestine" problem can be solved without crushing Arafat and the rest I listed on an order of magnitude about ten times that of what was done to Saddam, you are in for a rude surprise.
What makes you believe that the Palestinians are simply sheep that will follow Arafat and dont actually believe it is their will and right to have their own homeland? Daily, the Israelis claim more and more of Palestinian land for their own 'settlements' and the people of Palestine are subjected to daily attacks on their life.
Im not condoning the actions of terrorists, but you simply dismiss them offhand as if they have no cause and are just simply stupid and brainwashed. What proof do you have of that exactly?
How does the US intend to solve the problem of Palestine? Or what now of Syria? I could be misinformed, but I heard today from a guy in Finland (neutral?) that GWB was on the news saying that Israel has WMDs and has been helping Iraq. Does he mean they are next? Are you going alone? What is the purpose now? Where does it end?
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You've got a lot to learn if you think the UN can re educate those people peacefully and we'll all sing Kumbaya and live happily ever after. Fanatical terrorism responds to one thing and one thing only. Overwhelming force. The people responsible for the terrorism are not "average Palestinians", they are fanatical terrorists who hate western democracy and everything it espouses.
Did the IRA respond only to overwhelming force? They are the most recent terrorist organisation that has been subdued and so are a worthy example. Living in Scotland, I am only too aware of the problems that are caused by the conflict in NI. The religious hatred has scarred my country and even more, my home city Glasgow.
For nigh on a century the IRA fought the UK Govt. Well, they fought the Govt for the largest part. Then recently (in last 20-30 years) they became desperate and started attacking civilian targets.
So how did we get through this terrorism on our doorstep? We spoke to them, we looked at the problems they had in general and had with us specifically. And through dialogue we, to a great extent, solved them.
Trust me when i say the situations are the same. The only difference is the magnitude. And the solution is, imo, definitely the same.
Some will not listen to reason no matter the circumstances, hence why the current war was necessary imo. The next logical step however is a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian problem, not to mention prolonged and sustained aid. Im starting to have doubts, given the noises coming out of Washington, that this is everyone's priority.
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
You couldn't be more wrong. Study history. They (the "Palestinians") were abandoned by their Arab brethren after they tried to destroy Israel, which is a sovereign nation recognized by every major nation in the world EXCEPT the Arab nations that tried to destroy it. The "Palestinians" were refused entry or were driven out of Jordan and other countries by their own Arab brethren (see Black September), because the Arabs did not WANT them. King Hussien of Jordan FORCED them out of Jordan. If you believe that homicide bombers are just everyday people who are opressed and despondent you couldn't be more wrong. They are EDUCATED to believe that all that is not Islam is their enemy, and that they will be rewarded with paradise for killing themselves. That is as far from average and ordinary as you can get. If it were average and ordinary there would be tens of thousands of them and there are not.
Be truthful. Israel was a country created by us (the West) after the end of WWII when the Jews needed a homeland. We had the Middle East by the balls and told them, effectively, we were taking the land we now call Israel. They got a few concessions (keep schtum and we wont stop the aid) and the Israelis had their land. But they werent happy with this. In the name of 'protecting' themselves, they have dug deeper and deeper in to Palestinian terrority and violated the basic human rights of the people living there.
They have also broken numerous UN resolutions with regards to the welfare of the Palestinian people, not to mention many indiscriminate rocket attacks on suspected terrorists in urban streets, with absolute and complete disregard for the innocent civilians.
Do you really believe the Palestinians feel free and able to speak as they please, walk where they please, get the education they deserve, get the jobs that gives them a chance of a decent way of life?
They have none of those rights, the Israelis with our help removed every one of them years ago. Sad when you think about it, aint it? :(
Glas
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Glas, I'll only spend time on one thing here, since it is Sunday night and I've other things to do.
Did you READ what you typed"
You typed "I heard from a guy in Finland who said "Bush said Israel has WMD and has been helping Iraq".
I'll ask you again, DID YOU READ THAT?
Israel has WMD. No toejam !!!!! Israel has nukes, and has had for years.
Israel has been helping IRAQ??????? You ARE kidding aren't you? Did you MISS the last Gulf War???????? You know, where Saddam was lobbing SCUDs at Israel???? Did you miss the Israeli attack on Saddam's nuclear reactor that the French gave him??????
Check your sources bud and get better educated. The IRA is a LOT different than radical Islam, you have a great deal of experience with that situation, but it simply does not apply to the middle east and especially Israel and "Palestine".
I may spend more time on the rest of your issues later, but right now I've got this really cute woman over here that wants my undivided attention. I'm done for the night.
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Originally posted by Zembla
Don't you think it is funny to see that nobody really replies to your statements directly any longer? Go build a sand castle or something kiddo...
Only those of you I've proven wrong so many times they save themselves the embarrassment.
Congratulations, you've made that ranking.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Glas, I'll only spend time on one thing here, since it is Sunday night and I've other things to do.
Did you READ what you typed"
You typed "I heard from a guy in Finland who said "Bush said Israel has WMD and has been helping Iraq".
Sorry, must have been a beer to many when i wrote that post. I did, of course, mean Syria. Apologies for the confusion.
Glas
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Originally posted by Martlet
Only those of you I've proven wrong so many times they save themselves the embarrassment.
Congratulations, you've made that ranking.
Lol, perhaps you could say it often enough so that you actually start believing it yourself...
I'm no longer going to waste my time replying to somebody like you that doesn't even WANTS to understand :rolleyes:
BTW add someone to the list of "being ignored by:"
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Originally posted by Zembla
Lol, perhaps you could say it often enough so that you actually start believing it yourself...
I'm no longer going to waste my time replying to somebody like you that doesn't even WANTS to understand :rolleyes:
BTW add someone to the list of "being ignored by:"
Excellent. I've noticed all those I'm ignored by are the propaganda spewers, with no argument.
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Apologies for the delay I've been busy.
You should really study Israel a LOT more closely. It isn't ignorance that drives the "Palestinians". It's fear. Arafat is Saddam on a smaller scale, and backed by more small parties (read: Hamas, Hezbolla, Islamic Jihad, PLO, PLA, and others). The average "Palestinian" doesn't have much choice, Arafat and the rest keep them in their current condition for the express purpose of creating the "cause" against Israel. And Arafat is a freakin EGYPTIAN for crying out loud and NOT a "Palestinian". They manufacture those homicide bombers. They ARE educated, just not with the truth. If you think the Israel-"Palestine" problem can be solved without crushing Arafat and the rest I listed on an order of magnitude about ten times that of what was done to Saddam, you are in for a rude surprise.
I have studied it closely alot more than you seem to think. It's not fear it's despair. We are the ones creating the terrorists by allowing the situation to remain, Israel is not far from Nazism in what they are doing, persecution, unjustified murder. By Israel continually persecuting innocent civilians and by us allowing them to do so creates a situation not only in Palestine but in other nations where normal people want to get a message across that it's wrong. This is where groups like Hezbolla come in by taking these people and convincing them that the only worthwhile statement you can make that will make a difference is by blowing yourself up and taking a whole load of innocent poeple with you.
If "WE" the West stopped this (Which I'm glad to see they are intending to do with the 5 year plan) then groups like Hezbolla and others will find it alot harder to find recruits.
You've got a lot to learn if you think the UN can re educate those people peacefully and we'll all sing Kumbaya and live happily ever after. Fanatical terrorism responds to one thing and one thing only. Overwhelming force. The people responsible for the terrorism are not "average Palestinians", they are fanatical terrorists who hate western democracy and everything it espouses.
Only by education can you remove ignorance. And education from an early enough stage along with things like tolerance and understanding will go alot further than anything else to resolving problems. In regards to your comment on "Overwhelming force" if that did work then why the hell did Osama Bin Laden attack the United States knowing that they had "Overwhelming force" (more to the point how could he succeed when the US of A has such a "large" military).
Overwhelming force is outdated and from experience gained by figthing the IRA, Red Brigade and other terrorrists (Most of which were funded by the good old US of A) is not the correct way to remove the problem. Until you realise this you're doomed to wasting billions of $ every year in defense spending instead of improving your way of life and that of others around you. Instead of posturing and pissing everyone off why not look at what happened in Europe in the 80's with terrorism and how we resolved it before making silly statements about "Overwhelming force".
I'll leave you for the moment with a question. Whats the link between "Overwhelming Force" and "Gun Crime".
Malin
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Originally posted by Malin
Apologies for the delay I've been busy.
I have studied it closely alot more than you seem to think. It's not fear it's despair. We are the ones creating the terrorists by allowing the situation to remain, Israel is not far from Nazism in what they are doing, persecution, unjustified murder. By Israel continually persecuting innocent civilians and by us allowing them to do so creates a situation not only in Palestine but in other nations where normal people want to get a message across that it's wrong. This is where groups like Hezbolla come in by taking these people and convincing them that the only worthwhile statement you can make that will make a difference is by blowing yourself up and taking a whole load of innocent poeple with you.
[/B]
It is neither fear nor despair, it is HATRED . The groups perpetrating the terrorism don't want peace with Israel. They want to possess the land, and the more dead Jews are lying on it the better. Witness the homicide bombing that occurred immediately after the new PM of Palestine was sworn in and the "Road Map for Peace" was delivered. Never mind the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad have all openly and publicly stated that they WILL NOT stop committing terrorist acts, and they WILL NOT surrender their weapons and explosives to the new PM. If you think the Israelis are commiting genocide against the "Palestinians" on the level of Nazi Germany, then you are so terribly deluded I'll not bother to debate this with you. Just forget it.
Oh, and by the way, if the "Palestinians" wanted peace, why did they turn down the "Oslo Accord" which gave them nearly everything they wanted, and in which Israel, at the behest of CLINTON, conceeded things they never should have? Why have they been more violent since the CLINTON foreign policy disaster of 9/2000 than in any other time in recent history? Why? BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT PEACE, THEY WANT DEAD ISRAELIS!!!!
If "WE" the West stopped this (Which I'm glad to see they are intending to do with the 5 year plan) then groups like Hezbolla and others will find it alot harder to find recruits.
[/B]
We've been restraining Israel for decades. Who do you think stopped them in 1972? Who has stopped Israel from even going in to the "Palestenian" zone in force to take out Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad? Israel, at the behest of the U.S., has been exercising a lot of restraint, more than they should, and more than we should demand.
Only by education can you remove ignorance. And education from an early enough stage along with things like tolerance and understanding will go alot further than anything else to resolving problems. In regards to your comment on "Overwhelming force" if that did work then why the hell did Osama Bin Laden attack the United States knowing that they had "Overwhelming force" (more to the point how could he succeed when the US of A has such a "large" military).
[/B]
What caused Bin Laden to think he could get away with 9/11/01 is CLINTON. CLINTON, who failed to take the deal when Bin Laden was offered to him on a silver platter. CLINTON, who shot a couple of cruise missiles at an aspirin factory as an answer to the embassy bombings. CLINTON, who failed to respond to the attack on the Cole. CLINTON, who sent a couple dozen Rangers and three or four Blackhawks into Somalia, when they needed armor he denied them armor, when they needed to go back to finish the job, he said no, and then the scumbag was so stupid and arrogant as to ask them why they even wanted to recover the bodies of their fallen. CLINTON's gutless craven cowardice is what made Bin Laden think he could get away with it.
Overwhelming force is outdated and from experience gained by figthing the IRA, Red Brigade and other terrorrists (Most of which were funded by the good old US of A) is not the correct way to remove the problem. Until you realise this you're doomed to wasting billions of $ every year in defense spending instead of improving your way of life and that of others around you. Instead of posturing and pissing everyone off why not look at what happened in Europe in the 80's with terrorism and how we resolved it before making silly statements about "Overwhelming force".
I'll leave you for the moment with a question. Whats the link between "Overwhelming Force" and "Gun Crime".
Malin
Here's your answer. THERE IS NONE . You know nothing of what you speak. You need only look at the number of terrorist attacks since operations in Afghanistan began. That's right, terrorist activity is at a 25 YEAR low since 1/2001. So much for your theory. Malin, we have nothing to debate, you do not understand what has happened, nor do you understand what is happening. I'll not waste further time with you.
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We have nothing to debate because you believe the only answer to any problem is "over whelming force" or "over whelming abuse".
You don't have all the answers and neither do I, but where you're to busy trying to just piss everyone off by your blatant accusations and abuse I'm trying to broaden your mind into thinking theres more to the situation than you believe.
The groups perpetrating the terrorism don't want peace with Israel.
Read what I said. This is where groups like Hezbolla come in by taking these people and convincing them that the only worthwhile statement you can make that will make a difference is by blowing yourself up and taking a whole load of innocent poeple with you.
Given the choice any normal citizen of Palestine wants peace, the problem is by the persecution they are recieving from the Israeli's allows groups like Hezbolla to exist. Remove the persecution and 95% of those terrorist attacks will cease.
You say:
Oh, and by the way, if the "Palestinians" wanted peace, why did they turn down the "Oslo Accord" which gave them nearly everything they wanted,
How come everyone else says including your own press that the Oslo peace accord of September 1993 failed, because powerful Israeli interests and their U.S.-based allies caused it to fail. In an interview that September, U.S. Presidential pre-candidate Lyndon LaRouche forecast prophetically, that, unless immediate progress were made on the economic aspects of the peace agreements, "enemies of progress and enemies of the human race, such as Henry Kissinger and his friends, will be successful, through people like Ariel Sharon's buddies, in intervening to drown this agreement in chaos and blood."
That is, in short, what happened. By handing control over economic development programs appended to the Oslo treaty to the World Bank, Kissinger's friends ensured that no large-scale infrastructure would be built. Instead of enjoying a peace dividend in terms of better living conditions, the Palestinians would experience a deterioration of their already disastrous conditions. This would generate demoralization, and rage—the primary ingredients for radicalization—particularly among youth, rendering them vulnerable to recruitment into extremist organizations, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which are opposed to peace.
Looks like events proved Lyndon correct.
You say:
You need only look at the number of terrorist attacks since operations in Afghanistan began. That's right, terrorist activity is at a 25 YEAR low since 1/2001.
Prove it... show me the figures and don't forget to count all the suicide bombings in Israel along with the retalitory raids made by the Israeli's which are also classified as acts of terrorism. Don't forgot the India/Pakistan problems either, oh and btw you might want to look at Malaysia.
Do you really think I'll back down just because you use overwhelming aggression in your posts. Until you start to think instead of just yelling all you do is make yourself look stupid.
Malin
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Originally posted by Malin
We are the ones creating the terrorists by allowing the situation to remain, Israel is not far from Nazism in what they are doing, persecution, unjustified murder. By Israel continually persecuting innocent civilians and by us allowing them to do so creates a situation not only in Palestine but in other nations where normal people want to get a message across that it's wrong.
Unadulterated rubbish ... :rolleyes:
Regards,
Badger
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Unadulterated rubbish ...
Prove it,
Prove they arn't killing women and children. Prove they arn't destroying the basic infrastructure of Palestine forcing people to live in abject poverty (no running water, no electricity, no basic services) Prove they arn't forcing the Palestines into isolation by building fences around the areas they live and not allowing them freedom of travel. Prove that the idea of suicide bombing didn't come from Baruch Goldstein, a fanatical Israeli settler of the Kach movement, who opened fire on a group of praying Muslims, killing 50, in a Hebron mosque, on Feb. 25, 1994? Prove that the World Bank which was given the task of developing Palestine under the Oslo accord didn't decide that a Casino was a high priority project and that the supply of electricity to the population was considered low priority. Prove that in 1999, only 600 Palestinians were allowed to enter and exit the West Bank and Gaza, while the remaining 2 million were confined.
Well do you want me to continue?
Malin
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Originally posted by Malin
Prove it,
Prove they arn't killing women and children. Prove they arn't destroying the basic infrastructure of Palestine forcing people to live in abject poverty (no running water, no electricity, no basic services) Prove they arn't forcing the Palestines into isolation by building fences around the areas they live and not allowing them freedom of travel. Prove that the idea of suicide bombing didn't come from Baruch Goldstein, a fanatical Israeli settler of the Kach movement, who opened fire on a group of praying Muslims, killing 50, in a Hebron mosque, on Feb. 25, 1994? Prove that the World Bank which was given the task of developing Palestine under the Oslo accord didn't decide that a Casino was a high priority project and that the supply of electricity to the population was considered low priority. Prove that in 1999, only 600 Palestinians were allowed to enter and exit the West Bank and Gaza, while the remaining 2 million were confined.
Well do you want me to continue?
Malin
And that OKs suicide bombing how?
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No it dosn't, nothing does but at least now you may begin to see the causes of it.
America invaded Iraq to produce a regime change and stop the persecution of innocent people. Well why the hell are we allowing the persecution of the Palestinians (I'm pleased to see the 5 year accord though).
And before anyone starts about the fact that Groups like Hamas are against it, look at the history of Hamas and it's sister groups and feel free to post here who created and funded Hamas.
Malin.
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Originally posted by Malin
Well do you want me to continue?
Malin
No, that's ok.... you're facts are full of deceptive and false generalizations, but I think you already knew that. ;)
Even in this anonymous medium, I suspect that only the very weak minded would buy into most of the drivel you're writing about this subject material.
The "gun rack" in the back window of your pick-up truck is showing... better cover it up. ;)
Regards,
Badger
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Originally posted by Badger
you're facts are full of deceptive and false generalizations, but I think you already knew that.
The Oslo peace accord of September 1993 failed, because powerful Israeli interests and their U.S.-based allies caused it to fail. In an interview that September, U.S. Presidential pre-candidate Lyndon LaRouche forecast prophetically, that, unless immediate progress were made on the economic aspects of the peace agreements, "enemies of progress and enemies of the human race, such as Henry Kissinger and his friends, will be successful, through people like Ariel Sharon's buddies, in intervening to drown this agreement in chaos and blood."
That is, in short, what happened. By handing control over economic development programs appended to the Oslo treaty to the World Bank, Kissinger's friends ensured that no large-scale infrastructure would be built. Instead of enjoying a peace dividend in terms of better living conditions, the Palestinians would experience a deterioration of their already disastrous conditions. This would generate demoralization, and rage—the primary ingredients for radicalization—particularly among youth, rendering them vulnerable to recruitment into extremist organizations, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which are opposed to peace.
The assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin on Nov. 4, 1995, by right-wing Israeli extremist networks, was the political inflection point, intersecting the economic crisis. Rabin's Foreign Minister, a terrified Shimon Peres then threw the 1996 elections to Likudnik Benjamin Netanyahu, who reversed whatever implementation of Oslo there had been, and embarked on a confrontation course, by expanding illegal Israeli settlements and launching provocations. His successor, Barak, continued to dismantle Oslo, which culminated in the "offer" at Camp David, that Israel should maintain sovereignty over Jerusalem, including the sites sacred to Islam—an offer that no Arab leader, no Muslim, could accept. Following the fruitless Camp David talks, the religious passions associated with Jerusalem were consciously ignited by Sharon on Sept. 28, 2000, who demonstratively took a stroll, escorted by 1,000 Israeli police, by the holiest Islamic shrine in Jerusalem, the al-Haram al-Sharif. That act, which showed just how sensitive the Jerusalem issue is (and should have clarified why Arafat could not have accepted the Camp David offer), triggered the Intifada. This act by Sharon, is omitted from any U.S. or Israeli chronologies. Sharon's provocation was also the opening salvo to his election campaign. Once elected prime minister, by an electorate panicked by the violence that his provocation had produced, Sharon proceeded post-haste to finish off what little remained of the peace process.
What Oslo Said
The Oslo Accord signed on Sept. 13, 1993, was a political and economic program for peace. It called for establishment of a Palestinian interim self-governing authority, for the West Bank and Gaza, for a five-year period, leading to a final settlement, based on UN Resolutions 242 and 338. These call for the "withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied" in the 1967 war, secure and recognized borders, and a "just settlement of the refugee problem" regarding those Palestinians driven off their land in the wars since 1948, estimated to add up to 5 million today. The final status talks, which were to begin "not later than the third year" of the interim period, would deal with "Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations, and cooperation among neighbors, etc." The P.A. was designated to establish a "strong police force," while Israel would guarantee security against external threats. The civil administration would be withdrawn, the Israeli troops would withdraw from Jericho and Gaza, while "redeploying" in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, outside populated areas.
In 1995, the Israeli-Palestinian interim Agreement on the West Bank and Gaza, dubbed Oslo II, stipulated the second phase of self-rule, including provisions of elections of the Palestinian National Authority, a gradual withdrawal of Israeli military and handing over power to the Palestinians in the occupied territories, and the "prohibition of any change in the status of the West Bank and Gaza pending the outcome of final status negotiations." The West Bank was to be divided up into Areas A, B, and C, under P.A. control, joint control, and Israeli control, respectively.
The most important aspect of the Oslo Accords, dealt with economic policy. It was explicitly recognized that no peace could endure, unless there were cooperation among the former adversaries around economic development, for mutual benefit. Various Palestinian institutions were foreseen, to regulate water, energy, transportation, finances, etc. Two annexes to the accords were drawn up, protocols on joint cooperation for economic and regional development, which specifically identified a number of great projects: the Gaza Sea Port, the "Mediterranean-Dead Sea canal," "regional desalination and other water development projects," agriculture, energy, and industrial development.
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How Oslo Was Wrecked
The most effective means by which the Oslo Accords were sabotaged, was through economic policy. No sooner had the ink dried, than the World Bank issued a report on "development," whose parameters were simple: High priority would go to labor-intensive projects, and the lowest priority for basic infrastructure, like the canals, ports, energy, and transportation mentioned in the annexes. The World Bank report was an operative doctrine, which governed the way in which funds from donor nations were allocated. Thus, a gambling casino was considered a good investment, as was "repair of existing infrastructure" in Gaza—a cruel joke, since no infrastructure existed. It was only through European Union efforts, that any major infrastructure projects were built: the Gaza airport and sea port, for example, as well as water treatment plants and the Palestinian radio and television center. All these major projects were defined as military targets and systematically destroyed by Sharon's rampage in 2002.
The World Bank's ban on great projects was complemented by the closure policy introduced by Netanyahu, whereby, following any episodes of Palestinian violence, entire cities would be blockaded. Palestinians who travelled daily into Israel for work, were prevented from doing so, and the economic consequences were devastating. In 1993 and 1994, due to closures, unemployment went up to 10% and 15%; by the end of 1995 and early 1996, it reached 20%, and in March and April during closures, it hit 50%. In 1999, only 600 Palestinians were allowed to enter and exit the West Bank and Gaza, while the remaining 2 million were confined. Following Sharon's provocation at al-Haram al-Sharif in September 2000, violence broke out, and the Israeli regime responded with further closures. According to a UN report, in the weeks thereafter, P.A. GDP was cut in half. The number of Palestinian workers allowed into Israel for their jobs, was reduced by 53%. The effects on living standards were catastrophic, as 1998 reports on poverty in the P.A.—the first of their kind—documented. Palestinians were living in crowded quarters, school facilities were lacking water, electricity, and toilets, and food supplies were inadequate. In the rapidly growing Palestinian population—2.89 million in 1997—47% were under the age of 15. In Jenin, the site of the most intransigent Palestinian resistance, the water shortage was rendered severe due to the Israeli siege.
Nor was the suffering only economic in nature. Parallel to the closure policy, the Israelis, beginning with the Netanyahu government in 1996, accelerated their violations of the political clauses of the Oslo Accords.
Most important were the Israeli settlements on Palestinian territory. It was explicitly stated in those accords, that they prohibit "any change in the status of the West Bank, etc." Instead, every Israeli government since Oslo has continued the policy of expanding settlements. Since Barak took office in July 1999, tenders for the construction of at least 3,499 settlement housing units were issued in the occupied territories, and construction began on 2,270 units. Twenty-seven new settlement outposts (habitations not contiguous with settlements) were built since the signing of the Wye Plantation agreements in 1996—11 after March 1999. Fifteen new settlement outposts were approved for construction following the inauguration of Sharon in March 2001.
The settlements are connected one to the other, and to Israel, by bypass roads, which have created a new phenomenon in transportation geography, whereby all Israeli settlements are linked up, but Palestinian villages and cities are isolated, like so many apartheid-era bantustans. The Palestinians are not allowed to use these roads. The road connections between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, promised in the Oslo Accords, have not been built. Crazy schemes for an elevated highway to connect the two, without touching "Israeli land," have been floated. All this is in blatant violation of the Oslo Accords, which promised links between the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza, considered an inseparable unit!
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The Israeli military withdrawal and redeployment (even before Sharon's reoccupation began), has also been a farce. Area A, where the P.A. is supposed to have complete control over security and civil administration, accounts for 18% of the total area of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Area B accounts for 24%, and Area C, where Israel has total control, is 59%. Israel controls all borders to the Palestinian territories, and therefore the passage of persons and goods. Israel controls all roads in East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza, except for those in Area A. Israel controls 80% of the water resources, and all of Gaza's territorial waters.
Thus, if one wants to talk about violation of the Oslo Accords, one has to recognize, they have been made on the Israeli side, under a succession of governments: economic cooperation denied, infrastructure development blocked, transport communications sabotaged, economic life stifled, and political autonomy denied.
The Anti-Terrorism Fraud
Especially since Sept. 11, Israeli authorities have justified their increasing aggressions against the P.A., as part of the "war against terrorism." Their mantra has been, that Arafat "violated" the Oslo Accords, in that he did not use his extraordinary powers to annihilate terrorist organizations. The entire argument championed by Bush, that Arafat has "not done enough" to rein in terrorism, etc., is also a fallacy of composition.
The Oslo Accords mandated the P.A. to build a police force to maintain law and order, which it did. The acts of violence that erupted, especially under the Netanyahu regime, were organized by the militant Palestinian organization Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. Both have been, since their founding, sworn enemies of Arafat's P.A. Hamas was in fact created and nurtured by Israeli intelligence networks—officially—as a counterweight to Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization in the 1980s. Sharon personally was involved in promoting Hamas in its early activities.
When the recent crisis escalated, with suicide bombings claimed by Hamas or Islamic Jihad, Sharon's response was not to pursue these elements, but rather, to launch all-out warfare against the P.A., emphatically targetting the P.A.'s police force—that institution which had been shaped, according to Oslo, as the force to establish law and order, and root out terrorism. By killing large numbers of P.A. police and security, the Israelis have made it impossible for them to act effectively against terror. The entire offensive launched by Sharon recently has targetted the P.A., the P.A. police, P.A. security, and Arafat's personal security. It has not at all targetted Hamas or Islamic Jihad. As noted by Russian strategic analyst Pavel Felgengauer, it is as if Sharon and the Hamas are working together. In fact, although Sharon invaded every major Palestinian village and city in the West Bank, he strangely left Gaza, the stronghold of Hamas, untouched. He has been systematically killing P.A. police and security, but not the terrorists themselves.
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Malin....
To qualify, I'm neither Jewish nor religious in any fashion, which is perhaps why I look at these types of conflicts differently then most.
Your cut-n-paste (http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2002/2915oslo_mrdrd.html)[/url] "googling" and outright plagiarizing of Lyndon LaRouche's (http://www.larouchepub.com)[/url] web site material is transparent. Why don't you do some serious research on the subject and present your own original thinking. Informed discussion and rational debate on any subject is healthy, but some of your postings border on pure hate mongering.
You refer to Israel as being "not far from Nazism". Ironically, some of your rhetoric appears as if it's Goebbels incarnate. I'm surprised that even in an OT forum, a corporate business bulletin board would permit this kind of material to continue to be published under their banner.
Regards,
Badger
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In respect of Dale and Hi-Tech creations I'll cease.
Malino