Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: hawk220 on April 11, 2003, 12:59:22 PM
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some say that the populace has earned the right to freak out and steal and burn and seek revenge against those that oppressed them for so long. I know they are making their rebuilding just that much more difficult.
approve or disapprove?
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Looting the palaces is one thing. But looting needed government offices, hospitals, and banks is crap. The British got into a gun battle and killed some idiots looting a bank today.
I am curious to see what the curfiew will do.
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Its what happens when you "free" a country , and the people of that country had no hand in it. It leaves a leadership void, and if we dont take control fast i worry about the different groups of iraq fighting each other to break apart the country like yugoslavia.
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I dont think it's a matter of approving or disapproving until you'd walked in their shoes a bit. So, who am I to say.
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The first step in rebuilding Iraq will be to put a stop to this crap.
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It is a rock-and-a-hard-place problem. It might have been a good idea to have a few MP battalions ready to go in as soon as towns were liberated so as to maintain order, but that might have been considered oppressive.
On the other hand, township officials have been begging the US military to help keep private property secure, so bringing in the MPs would have probably been the right thing to do.
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Anything that was owned by government and Ba'ath party was created by labor and resources of iraqi people and belongs to the iraqi people as a whole.
Looting and stealing it by individuals is looting and stealing from iraqi people. It cannot possibly be justified.
A lot of what's goingt on is robbery of other iraqi's property, wanton distraction of valuable resources, settling of personal scores and general crime.
miko
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They need to round up a group of iraqi's that are local to these areas and appoint them interim police forces..pay them for the job and put them at post.
having Coalition guards against iraqi looters is only going to heighten tensions.
There are plenty of unemployed iraqi's about the area..put them to work rebuilding and guarding their cities and pay them to do it.
that will solve a couple of problems.
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Same thing happened in L.A. Must be some backward culture thingy.
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Originally posted by Kanth
They need to round up a group of iraqi's that are local to these areas and appoint them interim police forces..pay them for the job and put them at post.
The probelm is, how do we tell who to trust to fairly police? The Iraqis that we trusted to simply drive the trucks of free water to the people of Basra were selling it once the got there!
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Remember fellas, "it takes a villiage".....go figure that one out.
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rubber bullets and tear gas
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Are American troops going to be used as police?
Right now they aren't getting involved at all. I'm not sure about the situation down South.
It's one big cock-up. The Coalition is going to have to let mid-level Ba'athist types provide a police force and the rest of the municipal functions. There is no other way.
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how can you trust the police here??
Originally posted by crowMAW
The probelm is, how do we tell who to trust to fairly police? The Iraqis that we trusted to simply drive the trucks of free water to the people of Basra were selling it once the got there!
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I don't believe they will allow themselves to be policed by Ba'athists. They have had a taste of freedom from those people and I highly doubt they will allow themselves to be ruled by a party that was vicious to them.
Originally posted by Dowding
The Coalition is going to have to let mid-level Ba'athist types provide a police force and the rest of the municipal functions. There is no other way.
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I don't feel anything. It's not important..
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Looting and disorder is allowable provided a) Your favorite sports team has just won a major championship, b) You are a participant at a peace demonstration or c) The oppressive dictator of your country and his entire regime have just been overthrown.
Frankly the Raiders fan in me shed an envious tear watching the people of Baghdad celebrating their liberation. Had things turned out differently in the Super Bowl that could have been me out there looting stores and starting fires... in Oakland, of course.
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Fair enough airhead, but when the hospitals are full, people are nicking important equipment from the hospitals and there is little or no clean water at said hospitals - it detracts from this great victory we have won.
People are dying right now. And the country is being taken apart bit by bit.
Kanth - then who's going to be the police, work the hospitals or do the basic municipal functions?
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Originally posted by Kanth
how can you trust the police here??
LOL...good point!
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Originally posted by Kanth
how can you trust the police here??
We elect their bosses. We also have effective legal mechanisms to control their actions and punish their transgressions.
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This kind of craps happens when people, under years of oppression loose the right view of what is "freedom".
Add a status of great poverty and you have an explosive and dangerous situation.
Us and Brits army are doing what they can, but its not so simple.
There will be necessity of trained personal , an infantry man is not trained for this.
Mostly, you have to reeducate these people to freedom without giving them the sense of "occidental oppression" (don't know if its a correct expression).
Here, IMO US need the collaboration of all the other allied nations, and of organizations like UN.
The risk of being considered as "conquerors" or "colonialists" from all the arab world must be avoided at all costs.
A war has been almost won, now its time to win a peace and this will not be easier nor quick.
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You'll find that we (read Americans following and even during the revolutionary war) were in certain stages of chaos, though muted because of our own documents and pre-war decisions made the transition to our own self governing nation relatively easy compared to the events to take place in the future in Iraq. (1st and 2nd Continental Congress evolved into the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution)
I do feel that the looting is being hyped up to an extent greater than it is and should be. What would you or I do if we'd lived through 3 decades of oppressive rule and that one day just suddenly came to an end. I'd think I'd want to seek and destroy every representitive item from that body of government and would feel quite good stomping on the leader's photographs and stealing back some of the items of luxury they used while I was starving and suffering at their hands.
Even American soldiers were guilty of this at the conclusion of WWII, even going so far as I'm sure you know taking MILLIONS in already once stolen artwork and gold. Not to mention another hundreds of millions in small trinkets, including ashtrays, flatware, silverware, flags and clothing. Some of which my grandfather brought home and my view represent a great (in this case great does not equal good) period in history.
At any rate, I have no problem (as if I have any say in the first place) with letting the Iraqi's take what they can carry from government buildings and offices. I hope they target only governmental property and saw images of store owners taking up arms to defend themselves should looters come their way. I hope this goes well. It's a good new start for the Iraqi's and I for one am excited for them because in the images on TV, I see the way the U.S. was back when the English were shown from our soil. I don't expect the rest of the world to have any idea what the Iraqi's are going through, even many Americans. Maybe it's my thinking, but the saying "Do on to others as you would want done to yourself" really hits home this time. I feel as though we're helping another people grab the gift of freedom. And, no, we cannot and should not think that we can give this gift, but only help someone realize it. No matter what anyone says, especially dictitorial nations, I feel now and have always felt that we are doing the right thing. No amount of world press could convince me otherwise.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
Its what happens when you "free" a country , and the people of that country had no hand in it. It leaves a leadership void, and if we dont take control fast i worry about the different groups of iraq fighting each other to break apart the country like yugoslavia.
I'm with Frog on this one. I doubt very much that this would have occurred if the Iraqi people had the balls to fight for their own liberation.
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At any rate, I have no problem (as if I have any say in the first place) with letting the Iraqi's take what they can carry from government buildings and offices. I hope they target only governmental property and saw images of store owners taking up arms to defend themselves should looters come their way.
They are looting hospitals, shops and private homes. They are looting anything they can get into.
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25 years of repression.. a society that honors only force..
had to happen.
we'll get involved soon enough in stopping it. right now, the mission is elimination of fedayeen and RG holdouts, locating our POWS and getting WMD assets and Regime elements identified and located.
time.
we need time.
we got quite a bit done in three weeks.. lets see what things look like three weeks from now. meantime; on with the mission.
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25 years is no excuse for forgetting the first rule of civilization.
"Don't defecate where you eat."
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never strolled thru south central have yah?
these guys are rather civilized compared to what our own citizens have done to their parts of towns, sandy.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
never strolled thru south central have yah?
these guys are rather civilized compared to what our own citizens have done to their parts of towns, sandy.
I have...
Mark me down as against looting. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Hangtime
never strolled thru south central have yah?
these guys are rather civilized compared to what our own citizens have done to their parts of towns, sandy.
Stupidity is stupidity. It bridges all national and ethnic boundaries. I'm sure that just as there were people in South Central shouting "Stop! You fools!" there are the same in Iraq.
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do these people have jobs??
They are acting like a bunch of primates.
And to think our american and british soldiers died freeing these arse clowns.
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The non ba'ath party Iraqi's..I believe this is what they are doing in basra.
Originally posted by Dowding
Kanth - then who's going to be the police, work the hospitals or do the basic municipal functions?
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Originally posted by rc51
do these people have jobs??
They are acting like a bunch of primates.
And to think our american and british soldiers died freeing these arse clowns.
ijit
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exactly, so guess what needs to happen in Iraq.
and it needs to be people that the iraqi population will respect, no former members of the former dictator ship and no ba'ath members...
that leaves like 10 million people (considering 50% are said to be children)
there's tons of unemployed military types just now who are really looking to take care of their families.
there are leaders who were exiled who have come back..they just need to put everyone in place..
Originally posted by funkedup
We elect their bosses. We also have effective legal mechanisms to control their actions and punish their transgressions.
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Yep.
unfortunately they don't hold any official position to stop them, that's what our military must do is delegate and appoint temporarily to restore order until some sort of election can be held.
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Stupidity is stupidity. It bridges all national and ethnic boundaries. I'm sure that just as there were people in South Central shouting "Stop! You fools!" there are the same in Iraq.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
ijit
the primate comment hit home?
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Ya dood they are all employed, and everything is fine, I wonder why they are so freaked out...
how strange, they must all be subhuman and in need of 30 more years of torture and oppression..what were we thinking.
Originally posted by rc51
do these people have jobs??
They are acting like a bunch of primates.
And to think our american and british soldiers died freeing these arse clowns.
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I could use a car stereo/CD player.
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Originally posted by rc51
the primate comment hit home?
Sure did. Maybe when you evolve to that level you'll understand.
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Let them loot for a bit they deserve some fun...
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Sure did. Maybe when you evolve to that level you'll understand.
go drink some mad dog 20/20 you will feel better
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It always happens when you change goverment type in civ.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
never strolled thru south central have yah?
Yes, but they never sacked the hospital.
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Well wheres my car stereo?
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Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Don't shoot the courier.
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Restoring order would not be popular action. It's like taking the "freedom" back.
It would be smart for americans to involve UN forces in restoring order in Iraq.
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Hiya's,
Vote = Disapprove
But, Put yourself in their shoes....
Most have had nothing and i mean nothing from their suppressors/leadership/government
They have pent-up frustrations/anger/hatred for the regime that's just collapsing around them
They mainly have watched their surroundings being builtup with official residencies for saddams henchmen/cronies with no money spared for luxuries etc
The police (if you can cat them as we call "police") have left the room (jibe)
No comeback eg: pain/torture/fear of death/fear of retribution on their families....
Now you are expecting these poor souls to mildly sit by and wait for another police force to be appointed and keep law and order
Dream on, What would you do having nothing from a hated regime and mainly around you you see houses/palaces built for saddams elite ??
Well i think i would be inline for a quick plunder and general nosey around for anything i could find
Sheesh imagine this, Nothing/nada/zip/zilch then all of a sudden no saddam repressive forces to stop you taking what you want
Gimme a break anyone with a braincell would be after what they could use
I am against it, But get real guys it's inevitable in the (their) circumstances
One image sticks in my mind watching the looters or whatever you wanna call em, A young kid with a smile a mile wide waving a 3 fanned air wafter (light fitting with fan for cooling) he seemed so happy with a small common household appliance
This to me put the perspective into this, Imagine seeing around you with so much poverty/lack of government $$$ and a party official has all the mod-conns and being a young kid he sees this chance at a slice of LUXURY
Bad but try and put yourself in their shoes
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Defiance - they are stealing from hospitals and attacking staff when they try and stop them.
I can understand attacking party buildings and goverment buildings - but looting private shops, homes and hospitals is disgusting. And guess who'll have to clear up the mess?
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Don't get your knickers in a wad just yet. Some of this was to be expected after the fall of a repressive regime. Security and police forces will be in place in short order. The only people who resent their presence are the thieves and the ne'er-do-wells.
Regards, Shuckins
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What saddens me further is the knowledge that if coalition troops HAD taken steps to prevent the looting, some all-knowing idiot would have remarked that the troops were being heavy handed and had taken on the role of occupiers of Iraq, that the troops were making sure nothing was looted that might be of use to the coalition in the future, not that the troops were preserving things that would be needed to help the future and forthcoming Iraqi government establish rule.
Being in the medical field myself, I wonder if the looting of the hospitals was a kind of "in your face" display aimed at the former Hussein regime members. I don't know what the medical care system was like under that regime. One would get the impression from expatriate Iraqis that if you weren't in favor with the regime that you were screwed and that your quality of life suffered. I wonder if that applied to their healthcare also?
Make no mistake though........the Iraqi people will get their act together. There are malcontents in any and every group of people. You see them at every level, from individual groups of friends, villages, towns, cities, states/districts, etc......multiply that to the national level and I can see why there is so much looting and pillaging going on.
Coalition forces CAN do some of the police work to help curb the looting, but it is going to be up to the Iraqi citizenship to establish some sense of law and order.
Biggest problem I see in that area is the differences in their religious sects and the resulting rivalries that always seem to result.
I don't get it........in the USA, there are various religions, many of which call themselves Christian. There are Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, etc.........if we let our religious differences lead to bloodshed like I see and hear about in the Middle East, this country would have torn itself to pieces long long ago.
Hate to quote him, but Rodney King's "Why can't we all just get along?" seems to be something that part of the world should consider in their day to day lives.
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Hiya's,
Dowding i answered against looting
But as i say try and put yourself in their shoes
Imagine a kid let loose in a sweet shop with no comeback from a parent/s
No doubt where they are stealing from (hospitals and alike) is dispicable (but remember the iraq regime allowed this same thing in kuwait) so you have to kind of accept that these people will steal/loot anything that aint bolted down (hmm guess they carry spanners anyways)
Peace is always harder than war in most ways and this looting etc is an example
In my mind (imo) this will
A: be let to fizzle out til nowts left to loot
B: After the initial/sudden/overwhelming feeling of release is spent by the iraq general populus they will come to their sense (see A)
C: Being sorted i guess at this moment in time is some form of a police force
Now ...
D: You get police armed of course, Also die-hard looters etc
and try to restore law n order (seems to me let em release whatevers pent up then try and force a police force on em (i mean force as a nice needed way) after they chilled a bit of course or all it will end up in is a a worse state than just looting etc
If the "after-war" has not been thought of (which i can't imagine it hasn't been) no doubt it's in the process
Looking at it i guess the downfall was the easiest if i can dare say it compared to winning/earning the peace
No doubt with some well placed authority (like exiles) things will calmdown but it will like most things take time and patience
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Back lol
eddi "What saddens me further is the knowledge that if coalition troops HAD taken steps to prevent the looting, some all-knowing idiot would have remarked that the troops were being heavy handed and had taken on the role of occupiers of Iraq"
Correct eddi i 100% agree
Someone would always pick that up and given the region i can guess which nations too :(
Give it time guys
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I thought this was kind of.... something....
My brother is a writer for the Los Angeles Times, and has been covering the war from Iraq (and Kuwait & Qatar) since... well, just before the war started. Here's a bit of an article he wrote (I had to retype this, pls excuse any spelling errors):
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"Keeping Clash from Culture"
By David Wharton, Times Staff Writer, April 6 2003
KUWAIT CITY - It was an odd comment for a military briefing, the lieutenant colonel in his camouflage uniform complaining that Iraqi soldiers were attempting to "take advantage of our cultural sensitivity."
Yet such is the fine line U.S. and British forces say they have negotiated in the war against Iraq.
More than two weeks into the fighting, commanders say their troops have succeeded in rolling over the enemy while preserving historical sites in a land often referred to as the cradle of Western civilization.
Everyone from pilots to artillery commanders to tank drivers, they say, is advised about historical sites during briefings. A few days ago in Najaf, troops came under attack from Iraqis hiding in a revered mosque and did not return fire.
Although officials didn't address that question, Kuttas quickly pointed out that the city's most cherished landmark, the Iraq National Museum, had not been damaged as of Saturday afternoon. The museum ranks near the top of a military list that includes thousands of historical and cultural locations in Iraq. Before the war began, Pentagon officials met with academics and archeologists who drew a list of 4,000 "do not bomb" landmarks.
No one would say how many of those have been hit, if any, but Kuttas and others took pains to show that they are concerned about the possibility of what one University of Chicago archeologist called "cultural genocide."
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Then I read this on Reuters today:
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Looters Ransack Baghdad's Antiquities Museum
Sat Apr 12, 9:03 AM ET - By Hassan Hafidh
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Looters have sacked Baghdad's antiquities museum, plundering treasures dating back thousands of years to the dawn of civilization in Mesopotamia, museum staff said on Saturday.
Surveying the littered glass wreckage of display cases and pottery shards at the Iraqi National Museum on Saturday, deputy director Nabhal Amin wept and told Reuters: "They have looted or destroyed 170,000 items of antiquity dating back thousands of years...They were worth billions of dollars."
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Man......
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Compare and contrast the preparations made by NATO for the peace following the Kosovan intervention with those made for the post-war Iraq.
In Kosovo they had administrators, Military Police etc good to go. I've yet to see anything like that with this particular conflict.
I just think the whole thing has been mis-handled. Troops should have been deployed to the key municipal buildings - hospitals, power stations, de-salination plants and the museum housing 5000 years of ancient history now destroyed by vandals. Forget about the palaces etc - but the key infrastructure should have been protected.
They dropped the ball on this one, I'm afraid.
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Yeah, Nash - it makes me really sad to see all that history gone. There's some real birth of civilisation stuff gone from the records.
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I agree.
Originally posted by Dowding
Compare and contrast the preparations made by NATO for the peace following the Kosovan intervention with those made for the post-war Iraq.
In Kosovo they had administrators, Military Police etc good to go. I've yet to see anything like that with this particular conflict.
I just think the whole thing has been mis-handled. Troops should have been deployed to the key municipal buildings - hospitals, power stations, de-salination plants and the museum housing 5000 years of ancient history now destroyed by vandals. Forget about the palaces etc - but the key infrastructure should have been protected.
They dropped the ball on this one, I'm afraid.