Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on April 11, 2003, 01:54:35 PM
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At Bethesda Naval Center, the president will spend time with 33 wounded Marines and sailors and present four Purple Hearts there. At Bethesda, the president will also witness two Marines becoming U.S. citizens. Individuals wishing to serve as Marines can do so if they have a green card.
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Wow. So this is Kool. As long as Ali Muhammad has a green card he can be a Marine. Somehow I am not comforted by this.
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it takes more than a green card , they also have to go thru USMC boot camp.
non-citizens have always served in the US military , i think after one tour they are made citizens, but not sure.
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Yeah the son of the warlord we were hunting in Somalia at the time of "Black Hawk Down" was a former Marine. You can serve in the armed forces as an enlisted as a non-citizen legal resident, though officers must be citizens. Thirty or forty thousand green carders are serving now. Henry Kissinger got citizenship this way.
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Usta be you also could not serve overseas unless a citizen.
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Yep, I heard/read/saw that non-citizen in the Armed Forces can become U.S citizen after they have served. Something new Bush put in since he's been in office.
-SLICER
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also certain jobs in military only available to American citizen due to security restriction.
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Originally posted by SLCR
Yep, I heard/read/saw that non-citizen in the Armed Forces can become U.S citizen after they have served. Something new Bush put in since he's been in office.
-SLICER
its more official now for sure, but for years if a guy wasnt a citizen but had good service record it greatly helped his case and speeded up process of becoming a citizen.
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If they served they deserve it.
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Yep that's how it oughta be.
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He is a Marine.
He served, hell hand him the papers to become a citizen.
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I agree. Alot of these green card soliders/Marines/airmen/sailors are more patriotic than some citizens.
At the conclusion of service, citizenship should be automatic IMO.
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So I suppose folks from the Virgin Islands and Guam can serve in the US military.
They don't have their own military after all.
Many Irish did this in the Civil War. If I recall entire battalions and even a full regiment were entirely made out of Irish.
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I think is potato peelinG GREAT!!!
A tear almost formed when i heard about the Guatalmaln guy who was killed as a Marine..
He was an Orphan who traveld by riding trains to the US..Joined the Marines...
NOW that is kik prettythang$$$$...
He put his life on the line to serve a country he was not a native to.
He wanted to prtoect the freedoms we gave him for otheres to come...I think that is truly a great sign of what the majority of the people feel about the USA...
F ing Great..I salute him and many more
BiGB
xoxo
P.S. I did not know they could serve till this war....amazing...thatis reall dam good..You willing to defend this country..we at the least shoudl grant them a citizen...I wish he could of lived......Salute
P.P.S Can soemone Post his name please
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Yep, I heard/read/saw that non-citizen in the Armed Forces can become U.S citizen after they have served. Something new Bush put in since he's been in office.
Is it new? Several guys in my squadron (USN) were serving for citizenship 25 years ago.
Usta be you also could not serve overseas unless a citizen.
Dunno about the specifics- we were overseas quite a bit, and the guys serving for citizenship were right there with us.
At the conclusion of service, citizenship should be automatic IMO.
Seemed like a fair trade to me. When Robert A. Heinlein proposed this idea in Starship Troopers (1959) the public labeled him a fascist and a militarist.
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
I think is potato peelinG GREAT!!!
A tear almost formed when i heard about the Guatalmaln guy who was killed as a Marine..
He was an Orphan who traveld by riding trains to the US..Joined the Marines...
NOW that is kik prettythang$$$$...
He put his life on the line to serve a country he was not a native to.
He wanted to prtoect the freedoms we gave him for otheres to come...I think that is truly a great sign of what the majority of the people feel about the USA...
F ing Great..I salute him and many more
BiGB
xoxo
P.S. I did not know they could serve till this war....amazing...thatis reall dam good..You willing to defend this country..we at the least shoudl grant them a citizen...I wish he could of lived......Salute
P.P.S Can soemone Post his name please
He imbodied the true spirit of America God Bless him.
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Ok...my thoughts have reformed. Nice work fellas
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Originally posted by Major_Hans
So I suppose folks from the Virgin Islands and Guam can serve in the US military.
They don't have their own military after all.
Many Irish did this in the Civil War. If I recall entire battalions and even a full regiment were entirely made out of Irish.
There was a full Irish Brigade mainly out of New York; suffered terribly at Frederickburg; was key in defending Cemetary Ridge against Pickett's Charge the third day at Gettysburg. If you watch the film "Gettyburg" you see their green "Harp and Sunburst" ensign at the climax of the charge.
Irish officers on both sides sometimes met under flag of truce, and plotted to invade Canada after the war, and hold it hostage for the independence of the "Auld Sod". There were a few (small) attempts to do this, with dubious results.
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Oh no, Yeager, some Muslim might get into your country via putting his life on the line! The horror, the humanity!
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Just to emphasise not every one serves just to get citizenship. Once you have a green card you will become a citizen in due course if you want to put in the effort. Many just want a military career and or the college credits. Plus there's the other factor all over the world we have been exposed to American movies and TV with the US military heavily featured. There is a hint of glamour associated with it believe it or not.
A lot of Irish still join. One of the papers here featured three one each in the Marines, Army and Navy. One wanted to fly helicopters but can't until a citizen so he's out there in the gulf right now fighting for it. I understand it you must serve two years at least. He apparently wanted to join the US army since he was a kid. That is quite common.
The tough part is getting the green card. It's a lot harder than some Americans think.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Oh no, Yeager, some Muslim might get into your country via putting his life on the line! The horror, the humanity!
yeah whatever dude like i want a muslim four weeks off the boat being accepted to air force so he can join swat team at base with nukes. like i want a dude from china who snuck into America one year ago being allowed to work on aircraft carrier screening taiwan. not everyone a potential spy but you need to honor the threat. ill tell you what theres no way some dude from iran who snuck into england is gonna wind up working on a british submarine. do you really think enemy intel doesnt try to plant guys in military of countries they are tasked with spying on?
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They've gotta be legal residents, and you can bet there are background checks as well as restrictions.
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background checks fail more than most know. the dudes who conduct background checks are massively overlogged for TS and higher checks let alone the sub 'secret' checks required for joining military. ive seen guys in advanced training in military where it was found out they werent from America after being in training pipeline for over a year. you got it right there are restrictions but dowding make it sound like nothing to worry about and that not the case at all.
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I don't have a green card yet :( I know someone in AFROTC who is not a citizens yet but is about to become one, it might have something to do with him getting his comission pretty soon, upon graduating college.
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KILL UDET..HES A WETBACK!! get him out of here!!!!!!!
heheh just kidding..:)
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yeah whatever dude like i want a muslim four weeks off the boat being accepted to air force so he can join swat team at base with nukes. like i want a dude from china who snuck into America one year ago being allowed to work on aircraft carrier screening taiwan. not everyone a potential spy but you need to honor the threat. ill tell you what theres no way some dude from iran who snuck into england is gonna wind up working on a british submarine. do you really think enemy intel doesnt try to plant guys in military of countries they are tasked with spying on?
Hey, I've got an idea. We should round up all the muslims who are in America and put them in concentrat- er, internment camps until the war is over! Yeah! That way, we can protect ourselves from this threat!
It was shameful when we did it to the Japanese-Americans in WWII, your suggestion that we 'honor the threat' (whatever that means, there is no honor in what you propose) is disgraceful. You imply that all non-caucasians should essentially be either barred from military service or interrogated mercilessly for weeks before entering training, because don't forget, there are some... negros in the Middle East.
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LA MIGRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Hey, I've got an idea. We should round up all the muslims who are in America and put them in concentrat- er, internment camps until the war is over! Yeah! That way, we can protect ourselves from this threat!
It was shameful when we did it to the Japanese-Americans in WWII, your suggestion that we 'honor the threat' (whatever that means, there is no honor in what you propose) is disgraceful. You imply that all non-caucasians should essentially be either barred from military service or interrogated mercilessly for weeks before entering training, because don't forget, there are some... negros in the Middle East.
are you for real? do you understand the difference between not putting an American citizen in an internment camp and giving a non American citizen who is in military access to classified information? where did i imply non caucasian? plenty of caucasian not cleared for sensitive job or information and such. honor the threat means defend against hostile intelligence service hostile intelligence agent and such even when presence not obvious. honor the threat is reason for classifying information. im not against them being in military i spoke up when someone thought concern over non American citizen being trusted with defence of America was not worthy concern. i never implied non caucasian barred from service im the guy that said it wasnt a new practice and it helped them gain citizenship. hello?
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Some of the bravest American soldiers in WW2 were of Japanese descent, like that guy that got his arm blown off by a grenade but he kept fighting, I forgot the details.
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chairboy you ever served in military or been cleared for access to sensitive or classified information?
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Anonymous, obviously you haven't, or you would understand the following:
1. Compatmentalization means that not every private has detailed knowledge of all upcoming military action.
2. To get to a level where you DO know this stuff involves some heavy duty background checks.
This is not some 'Star Wars' situation where, once you're in the miitary, you can just 'plug in' and 'interpret the entire imperial network'.
Your post betrays a lack of knowledge, a ridiculously inaccurate view of security, and the disgraceful flavor of racism.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Oh no, Yeager, some Muslim might get into your country via putting his life on the line! The horror, the humanity!
Hey Dowding. Why not??? We let Irish Catholics and English Protestants in. You haven't been able to get them to stop killing each other in your own back yard yet so why tell anyone else how to handle a person with a religous background different from your own. :rolleyes: Here isn the U.S. they seem to coexist nicely.
BTW don't bother with the "it's complicated" remark to explain it.
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My comment was sarcastic, you dolt.
So you ask a question and then answer it for me yourself? You're starting to sound like Grunherz.
Although I don't know how NI figures in this (other than a piss poor red herring on your part), when people are on their own land (as they perceive it to be), they react a little differently. That too 'complicated' for you to understand?
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My comment was sarcastic as well you dimwitted dolt. :rolleyes: I would have thought that a Brit would have spotted the irony but I guess I gave you more credit than you deserve.
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Ironic? What, are you Alanis Morasette?
You basically compared 30 years of sectarian violence to some mythical religious struggle within the US military, then tried to make out that the lack of any connection was in some way insightful.
I'm sorry, maybe I am dim-witted. But I missed the irony.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Anonymous, obviously you haven't, or you would understand the following:
1. Compatmentalization means that not every private has detailed knowledge of all upcoming military action.
2. To get to a level where you DO know this stuff involves some heavy duty background checks.
This is not some 'Star Wars' situation where, once you're in the miitary, you can just 'plug in' and 'interpret the entire imperial network'.
Your post betrays a lack of knowledge, a ridiculously inaccurate view of security, and the disgraceful flavor of racism.
a lack of knolwedge? racism? you are unaware of how things have been going in the real world for the last couple of years at least dude. in a perfect world, on paper, everyone is cleared before access. did you miss my mentioning that the people who perform background investigations for TS and above are totally backlogged? i hold several high level clearances. in the civilian sector alone, something like two thirds of the civilian workers who needed to be cleared TS or higher for their work were being given access to sensitive data before any background checks performed. if they have massive backlog on TS or higher you think thats from all the investigators working on sub secret type backgrounds on people entering military? i speak from experience dude i had a student three weeks from graduating advanced six month training course where minimum level clearance for all student is secret and with three weeks to go they found out he not a citizen. he not trying to be sneaky was told bogus info by recruiters but still this guy had access to serious stuff and no one dealing with ci or security had a clue hed lived in America for all of a month or two which was how long it took for him to cross border go to recruiter then wait to ship for bootcamp. dude i never said i have any problems with non citizen in military. i did have problem with statement that now appears to have been inside joke between dowding and yeager. in theory what you say is correct but the theory and the applicable reality are far apart right now. and if you are calling me racist then you are calling many racist because many understand there is reason for non citizen to not have access to certain information or to hold certain job in military. you never answered my question were you ever in military or ever cleared for access to classified information? my answer to both is very big yes.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Your post betrays a lack of knowledge, a ridiculously inaccurate view of security, and the disgraceful flavor of racism.
yo chairboy another question for you. you dead wrong on all counts but explain to me how citizenship is a race? what have i typed that make you think i am racists? big mistakes on lack of knolwedge and innacurate view security excusable as you not know what i do for job.
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never mind the questions chairboy. someone with more internet time just explained some things to me. well have to agree to disagree i guess. you think i know nothing of the military and classified information handling and that im a racist. i disagree. you must be a smart guy pegging me so well after reading a few sentences typed by me.
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Originally posted by anonymous
chairboy you ever served in military or been cleared for access to sensitive or classified information?
Howdy folks! Been gone awhile...spring turkey season and my continuing world travel.
A general answer to your question....
Speaking from first hand experience as a witness and former clearance holder, it takes a lot of time to get cleared being a foreigner. Having said that, there are a significant number of dedicated nationalized Americans (and there were a few in the process of such) in very classified areas in and outside of the military working with intel and signals intercept.
I don't know what age group you may be in but it's obvious that you never worked in the last 15 years in an area that required TS or higher clearance.
Moreover, if you review the published information (take my word on the non-published stuff), they were American-born citizens that sold us out when such an event ocurred within the last 20 years (with the exception of some sensitive info on nukes that went to China).
The USA is an immigrant nation. Let's not forget that truth. Especially when someone desiring to be an American pays the ultimate price in service to our country.
...and fellas: That story about the boy from Central America brought tears to my eyes. From Saving Private Rayn, "Earn it."
rogwar out
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Originally posted by rogwar
Howdy folks! Been gone awhile...spring turkey season and my continuing world travel.
A general answer to your question....
Speaking from first hand experience as a witness and former clearance holder, it takes a lot of time to get cleared being a foreigner. Having said that, there are a significant number of dedicated nationalized Americans (and there were a few in the process of such) in very classified areas in and outside of the military working with intel and signals intercept.
I don't know what age group you may be in but it's obvious that you never worked in the last 15 years in an area that required TS or higher clearance.
Moreover, if you review the published information (take my word on the non-published stuff), they were American-born citizens that sold us out when such an event ocurred within the last 20 years (with the exception of some sensitive info on nukes that went to China).
The USA is an immigrant nation. Let's not forget that truth. Especially when someone desiring to be an American pays the ultimate price in service to our country.
...and fellas: That story about the boy from Central America brought tears to my eyes. From Saving Private Rayn, "Earn it."
rogwar out
hey im ts right now among other things. this stupidity started when i responded to something that i didnt know was a inside joke between two guys who are regulars on this bb. i was defending the practice of non citizens not being given access to certain jobs and certain information as easily as citizens which is the practice that you just confirmed takes place. you know and i know that citizenship is important check because it verifies that person being cleared didnt 'walk off the boat' from somewhere in the past weeks or months or couple of years and you also know why this is important when dealing with foreign intelligence services. my argument was never about immigrants and that they are supposedly cleared for ts or higher too easily and i never said anything other than positive about non citizens serving in armed forces. my argument was against people saying that there was no reason to require citizenship for certain positions and information. immigrants in military and deserving citizenship and immigrants being base level higher risk category with regards to sensitive information or job and foreign intelligence are two different things. recognizing this doesnt make me racist does it? and when i speak of background checks not always getting done even for high level clearance and such im speaking from recent experience. the checkee has to do the paperwork but the paperwork isnt always verified. for what its worth im active usn and ive been cleared secret or higher since i joined over fifteen years ago. most of that time ive been cleared ts and higher for some things. maybe it was different with you but i know for a fact that there were times where the check never took place or took place so late that i already had access for significant amount of time.
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rogwar email me through the bb if you would ive got this sense that we have really similar backgrounds. :)
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Please post the soldiers name that died .... from Guatamala..
Salute
BiGB
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BTW, all active duty Marines have "green cards".
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Originally posted by VAQ
When Robert A. Heinlein proposed this idea in Starship Troopers (1959) the public labeled him a fascist and a militarist.
Ummmm... I believe he presented citizenship as something that had to be earned and was not an entitlement. That's quite a bit different than what is being discussed here. "Fascist" and "Militarist" were not labels applied because he wanted foreigners to have to go through the military to get citizenship, but because he wanted everyone (even descendants of citizens) to do it.
MiniD
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Actually Dowding,
If you look above your sarcastic post abit, it looked like Yeager changed his position. It also appears by his second post it was due to others posting rationally and non-sacrcastically.
I'm not saying I don't enjoy your barbs, because I do. I just think you missed Yeager's second post where he changed his position.
BTW, since my wife carried a "Green Card" for years, I support that if they served, they deserve to become a citizen. Hell, it's more than the majority of posters here have done.....from or for any country.
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Here goes another flame invitation.
I happen to agree with Heinlien in his writings that a true citizen os one who puts country and their society above self. Those that are willing to place their own lives on the line to defend their country are in fact true citizens. They have shown with their actions they have more at stake in the country than just being a citizen by accident of birth. Those folks are displaying true dedication to country duty and honor.
Citizenship should be earned, not simply bestowed by virtue of where you were whelped. If you aren't willing to "earn" it then you are less of a citizen in my eyes.
Those Marines, Soldiers and Sailors who served a country without benefit of "citizenship" have far more of my respect than most who were born in this country and did not do anything to serve their country or "fellow man" They ARE citizens irregardless of a piece of paper.
My opinion and you are welcome to disagree if you wish. I earned my citizenship and opinion.
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Aye I did. I'm sure I read the whole thread through, though.
Still, the initial post was light hearted prejudice.
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Agreed about the citizenship for military service. It's the least we can do. Heck, include his/her immediate family too.