Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on April 12, 2003, 11:34:03 AM
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/12/sprj.irq.carrier.fleet/index.html
:D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/12/sprj.irq.carrier.fleet/index.html
:D
Well, CVs are not nessesary for guarding oil-fields. Just as dolphins can be not very successful in removilg land mines in the desert.
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Next stop Northwest Pacific Basin!
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Well lets not get that detail oriented boroda all i've been hearing is how the evil usa will simply steal everything and immediately attack syriya and iran and everything... Doesnt seem to be the case if we are taking out nearly half our airpower from the region does it? :)
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Originally posted by Rockstar
Next stop Northwest Pacific Basin!
Was thinking the same thing.
MiniD
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Well lets not get that detail oriented boroda all i've been hearing is how the evil usa will simply steal everything and immediately attack syriya and iran and everything... Doesnt seem to be the case if we are taking out nearly half our airpower from the region does it? :)
Much easier to attack Syria from Mediterrenian sea then from Gulf.
BTW, did you hear that since 2 days ago Iranian army is on "red alert"? All officers taken back from vacations, cadets study the Iraqi experience, especially the role of Aircraft defence... It is rumoured that Iran turned to Russia to buy newest S-300 and S-400 SAMs...
http://iran.rusmet.ru/news_iran.php?act=news_by_id&news_id=11647
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America is not attacking Iran - we are sending our CV battlegroups to the Mediterranean to attack syria... ;)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
America is not attacking Iran - we are sending our CV battlegroups to the Mediterranean to attack syria... ;)
I hope some of the latest Russian SAMs are already OTW to Syria. With officers and other advisors. 20 years later it will be nice to come back.
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Sigh.. way to go boroda. Maybe they could send you or your dad with them.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Boroda
I hope some of the latest Russian SAMs are already OTW to Syria. With officers and other advisors. 20 years later it will be nice to come back.
Yes, Russian arms proved so effective in their last engagements. Nice jamming gear.
I'll send Syria some rocks, it will most likely prove more effective.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Yes, Russian arms proved so effective in their last engagements. Nice jamming gear.
I'll send Syria some rocks, it will most likely prove more effective.
Syrian Air Force and Aircraft Defence:
http://www.waronline.org/mideast/syria_airforce.htm
They have 2 brigades S-200 (SA-5) Angara long-range SAMS (48 launchers), 11 brigades of S-75 (SA-2) and S-125 (SA-3) short-medium range (480 launchers) , 11 brigades 2K12 Kvadrat (SA-6) (200 launchers). Not speaking of 4000+ Strela portable SAMs, 400 Shilkas etc.
I just want to see the big mean S-200 in action. In Lybia, 1986, they shot down 2 US planes, 1 missile per channel, 2 channels - 2 hits.
Let's see what will happen when agressors will meet a good planned aircraft defence, set up by experienced officers. I expect some surprises, but definetly they have no chance against intervents :( At least unless they'll get assistance from international community.
And I think it's absolutely OK to ship them defencive weapons.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Syrian Air Force and Aircraft Defence:
http://www.waronline.org/mideast/syria_airforce.htm
They have 2 brigades S-200 (SA-5) Angara long-range SAMS (48 launchers), 11 brigades of S-75 (SA-2) and S-125 (SA-3) short-medium range (480 launchers) , 11 brigades 2K12 Kvadrat (SA-6) (200 launchers). Not speaking of 4000+ Strela portable SAMs, 400 Shilkas etc.
I just want to see the big mean S-200 in action. In Lybia, 1986, they shot down 2 US planes, 1 missile per channel, 2 channels - 2 hits.
Let's see what will happen when agressors will meet a good planned aircraft defence, set up by experienced officers. I expect some surprises, but definetly they have no chance against intervents :( At least unless they'll get assistance from international community.
And I think it's absolutely OK to ship them defencive weapons.
I'm sure the US could care less if they get more Russian crap.
Again, we just saw how well it performs.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I hope some of the latest Russian SAMs are already OTW to Syria. With officers and other advisors. 20 years later it will be nice to come back.
What are the Russian advisors going to do, tell the Syrians how many different ways they would get their tulips kicked if America attacks them?
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hmm, I recall one F-111 lost over Libya. I dont recall that we lost anything else tho, either from Air Force or Navy.
IMO, it makes a big difference who is manning a given set of hardware too. I'm guessing Russian manned SAM systems did better in Vietnam or other places than client-manned systems.
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In Lybia, 1986, they shot down 2 US planes, 1 missile per channel, 2 channels - 2 hits.
Don't recall seeing that we lost two F-111's on that strike, but we may have.
What I remember most is old Khadafi shut the heck up after that strike. He lost a child when US planes hit right the illustrious Libyan leader was, and I hate it that an innocent died, but it did stop all the "kill Americans, all Americans wherever you see them" rantings.
Tell me, Boroda, exactly what is it about the United States that makes you hate it so badly? I'm not taunting you, I would seriously like to know.
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Originally posted by Rasker
hmm, I recall one F-111 lost over Libya. I dont recall that we lost anything else tho, either from Air Force or Navy.
IMO, it makes a big difference who is manning a given set of hardware too. I'm guessing Russian manned SAM systems did better in Vietnam or other places than client-manned systems.
US never admitted the loss of 2 planes that crossed the "line of death" over Syrt gulf in March, 1986. Prpbably they were signed off as "non-combat losses" because they felt down in the waters that were considered "neutral" by the US (if you remember the whole mess back then).
I talked to a guy who was at the observation radar indicator when they were shot down... Also talked to many people who worked in our military mission in Lybia. Also was told this when studied at the Military department in my college (S-200 technical division officer). It was given as an example of S-200 reliability and accuracy, regulations order to shoot no less then 2 missiles at every target, but that guys in Lybia didn't have enough missiles...
As usual - I sell it for the same price I bought it.
Most of the impressive combat work was really done by Soviet advisors, in Vietnam, Egypt, Syria and Lybia... Arabs are not good warriors, and it's a fact. There was a legend that Israeli choppers "stole" the whole targeting cabin of a Syrian SAM while the crew was performing their daily prayer :)
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Originally posted by Rasker
hmm, I recall one F-111 lost over Libya. I dont recall that we lost anything else tho, either from Air Force or Navy.
Only 1 F-111 was lost at Tripoli. It was not hit by a missile, but crashed flying low level when it touched a wingtip to the water. This is coming from one of the weapons officers flying in the mission.
I've not heard of the incident Boroda is talking about. But its not like he'd believe a ghost story just because of national pride. That's something only us Americans do.
Boroda... you're whole aproach to this subject is tasteless. Firstly, you excuse the soviet sale of arms to third world countries as noble, then you hope they are used to kill American planes... to the point of bragging about a rumor you heard from 86.
I wonder how many Russians have been killed by Russian hardware sold to other nations to "protect them from imperialists" (and make a buck). My guess is more Russians have been killed with Russian hardware than anyone elses. Continue bragging about its prowess... please. While you're at it.. feel free to knock U.S. international policy.
MiniD
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Mini D, my Uncle scored four victories in Vietnam as a SAM targeting officer, I said it many times. I wonder how many lives he saved.
Selling weapons is OK, if not - why do you have the first place in international weapon market?
The story I told you happened before the F-111 raid on Tripoly.
hehe Kaddafy wrote that it was done only to destroy his "tent" with a manuscript of Green Book :) Did you read Green Book? It's a must read! :D Very educating.
Here is a brief story from a witness, in Russian. At least Miko can enjoy it. IIRC I posted a link here before...
Опыт боевого применения ЗРК С-200 в СНЛАД в марте 1986 года.
После очередной политической склоки между Ливией и США, в марте 1986 года , в сиртовский залив пришла авианосная группа США в составе 2-х авианосцев и кораблей прикрытия. Для США это было достаточно привычная демонстрация силы.
В тот же момент в Ливии был завершен монтаж новой для СНЛАД (Социалистическая Народная Ливийская Арабская Джамахирия (республика)) системы ПВО С200. Система уже функционировала, но запас ракет был ограничен из за срывов в поставках. Поэтому приход авианосного соединения был так же связан с развёртыванием новой системы ПВО. Я в тот момент в основном оказывал содействие группе наших советников по системе С-200 как переводчик и представитель дивизии ПВО Ливии.
С первого дня прихода в сиртовский залив, авиация США совершала провокационные полёты вдоль ливийской границы, особенно в районе сиртовского залива и линии смерти . ( Линия смерти (Хат аль моут) была проведена почётным полковником Каддафи между двумя основными городами Ливии Триполи и Бенгази). Основная задача данных провокаций- попытка вынудить выйти в эфир (включить на излучение передатчики) новой системы ПВО в районе г. Сирт и базы ВВС Ливии 2-й дивизии ПВО. Учитывая, что новая система ПВО была запущена не до конца, особенно в вопросах взаимодействия и опознавания самолётов, было принято (спорное) решение свою авиацию не применять. ВВС убрали в капониры, замаскировали.
Учитывая полное превосходство американцы стали наращивать присутствие авиации в воздухе. Доходило до 120-140 истребителей одновременно. Так продолжалось несколько дней.
Не получив необходимую информацию американцы пошли на прямую провокацию- около 14-00 по ливийскому времени линию смерти пересекли 2 истребителя США F14 Томкет с целью спровоцировать выход в эфир системы ПВО. В эфир было разрешено выйти только С200. Учитывая ограниченный запас ракет, командир бригады приказал открыть огонь 2-м каналам, но по одной ракете каждый. Американцы по видимому не обладали точной информацией по дальности поражения С-200 (>200 км) и надеялись совершить противоракетный манёвр, но обе ракеты успешно поразили оба истребителя, что мы собственно говоря и наблюдали по экранам ПРВ 17 (радиовысотомер комплекса С 200). (В первый раз немного жуткое зрелище.)
В течении нескольких минут авиация была возвращена на авианосцы. Наступило томительное ожидание ответного удара. Вся система ПВО 2-й дивизии ПВО СНЛАД была приведена в состояние боевой готовноси, мы все тоже убыли непосредственно на боевые места. Через несколько часов подготовки в воздух было поднято более 100 самолётов противника, при поддержке самолётов ДРЛО и РЭБ. (Ну началось-пронеслось в голове ))) Используя прикрытие активных помех в боевые порядки был запущен беспилотный самолёт разведчик, который так же был сбит при пересечении линии смерти . Используя некоторое замешательство после поражения беспилотника, с нескольких направлений для провоцирования ПВО устремились истребители и штурмовики. При выходе в эфир дивизионов по ним наносились удары ракетами Шрайк , наводящимся по лучу станции дивизиона ПВО. Но ни один дивизион не пострадал ,так как командиры во время выключали высокое и ракеты уходили выше или падали не долетев. Такая игра со смертью продолжалась несколько часов и в один из моментов боя по позиции С-200 был нанесен ракетный удар совершенно новыми ракетами Харм ( с запоминанием курса излучения дивизиона ПВО). Удар был достаточно неожиданным и одна из ракет попала в кабину антенной системы С-200. Один из каналов был повреждён. Остальные ракеты прошли мимо и взорвались, одна досталась практически целой. (Это был очень важный момент-мы получили в руки уникальную ракету-ранее нигде не применявшуюся). Не взирая на упорное желание уничтожить 2-й канал американцам это не удалось, а нашими специалистами буквально за 24 часа был востановлен канал о чём сразу же стало известно американцам по кратковременным выходам в эфир канала. Это был настоящий шок для них и не желая увеличивать потери (не скрывая досады в радиоперехватах ) они посадили авиацию и ушли. Ушли отрабатывать тактику борьбы с данной системой ПВО.
Вернулись они через месяц но это уже другая история .
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Originally posted by eddiek
Tell me, Boroda, exactly what is it about the United States that makes you hate it so badly? I'm not taunting you, I would seriously like to know.
Well, I don't know if it's Boroda's reason, but a lot of it has to do with all of our American, "We'll just kick your tulips because we're the best" type of arrogance, the "We saved your tulips in WWII" while failing to note the significant contributions of other allied nations.
It's no wonder so many people hate Americans. If we were a little more modest, we probably wouldn't have so many problems. Maybe if we stopped kissing Israel's butt so much that would help too...
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Once again boroda...
Do you think more russians have been killed by russian weapons than all others combined? Hell.. even since WW2? I'm curious as to what spin you'd put on that.
How about this: Russian weapons (either by design or manufacture) have accounted for more war related/ terrorism related deaths since WW2 than all other weapons combined.
As for the "world leader in weapons sales"... Provide some info on that. Are you basing that on $$$ or shear tonage? I'm trying to think of how many nations have our tanks, our fighters, our missile defense systems, our missiles or our riffles.
I know Canada, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Australia and Israel have purchased these weapons from us... but let's compare lists if you'd like.
Russia has been too much of a ***** to really do anything themselves. Instead, they've hidden behind 3rd world arms sales and the relics of communism. Virtually every country they have supported or stockpiled with weapons is in either political shambles or financial ruin... usually both. So, let's hear about the nobility of protecting the little guy again. Let's hear about how Russia will always be there to fight against American tyrany. Please boroda... we await your unbiased words of wisdom.
MiniD
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i just love reading boroda.
he just wants a cold war rematch.... must be nothin good on moscow TV again.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
i just love reading boroda.
he just wants a cold war rematch.... must be nothin good on moscow TV again.
lmao.
russians can't even take out the chechs, and Baroda is bragging about what their weapons will do to the US?
Heh, every war we fight is against weapons from that cesspool corner of the world.
Nothing new there.
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People talked about AA missiles..
Well they got some SAMs here from Russia, to cover some debts...
My friend was there when they test launched those , if I remember right its called BUK. Quite long range system , active radar seeker or sumthing.
Orders were to launch one. 2 went away..with single push of button.. That was mystery no.1
One Ice berg was sailing happily and getting tanned, when one bad missile struck it... lots of free ice cubes..
One started to act weirdly and broke apart in midair.
So much from Russian SAMs. Dunno if they ever hit the target.
But if you launch enough of em, one might get lucky....
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Selling weapons is OK, if not - why do you have the first place in international weapon market?
Hey who can deny the U.S.A sells weapons on the international market, heck alot of countries do. Careful how you rank us, we maybe 1st when it comes to money received from sales BUT I believe Russia is first when it comes to ammo tonnage and material sold.
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What I remember most is old Khadafi shut the heck up after that strike.
You mean apart from the Lockerbie bombing and the IRA sponsorship and training?
Yeah, that really shut him up.
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Bekaa Valley, June 1982.
Game, set, match.
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Toad beat me to it, what say to that comrade Bore-ya-da.
Im sure it was all not true via your enlightened free press.
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I'm sure our Official Party Comedian will come up with some great triumph of Soviet Arms in the Cold War era against western weaponry.
Maybe he'll use Viet Nam again, where U.S. pilots were forbidden to bomb Soviet-made SAM missile sites under construction but could risk their lives firing at those same sites after they were fully operational. Where dockyards full of unloaded SAMS were off limits to attack by US airpower. Despite this, there's no record of the SAMS and AAA having any serious effect on stopping the air war. The air war, with these incredible restrictions, kept right on coming.
Remember the twelve days of Linebacker II? SAMS against those highly agile and evasive B-52's?
In those last twelve days, there were 741 B-52 sorties and 15 losses, with over 750 SAMs fired. And the North Vietnamese went back to the negotiating table in Paris, finally agreeing to "end the war".