Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Mister Fork on April 13, 2003, 11:55:40 AM
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Nice post Mister Fork
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Umm these are the pictures the propaganda machine ENSURES everyone WILL see. LOL those pictures could be from the 'propaganda 101 textbook'
Try posting some pictures of brains splattered over the baghdad resident area walls.
That's right, you can't. "They" made sure of that you won't get access to such material.
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Mister Fork, how do you format the pics to load so fast, yet appear so clear and large and all in one post?
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Siaf,
It's no great secret that in war there are casualties. I'm not sure how smart they are in your part of the world, but photos of deaths during a war do not garner any special insight and that people die is no surprise here in the USA, as sad as it may be. But when the pockets of resistance are less than those who are welcoming the toppling of their gonvernment and there are photos of such a welcoming, that tends to be news because that is rare in the history of warfare.
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Ahhh!!!
Horrible!!!
How dare you post that?
OMG that is disguising!
For allahs sake I'm eating here!!
No!
Lies!
Siaf is right, these pictures are fake propaganda. Those people arent iragi arabs for in reality we have killed all arabs and iraqis - they are simply a bunch of los angeles area mexican americans dressed and made up to look like arabs on a hollywood sound stage.
Siaf doesnt it just suck being you?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Umm these are the pictures the propaganda machine ENSURES everyone WILL see. LOL those pictures could be from the 'propaganda 101 textbook'
Try posting some pictures of brains splattered over the baghdad resident area walls.
That's right, you can't. "They" made sure of that you won't get access to such material.
Do want to see the pics of the brains and blood pre-US Liberation? I never saw those either
P.S. define "they"
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Maybe I should post my UN peace-keeping pictures from Iraq in 1988 Saif? Having LIVED in Baghdad for about two years with the UN, I can say that those pictures are genuine.
Second Saif, stop looking at life with blinders on. Your comments are very black and white.
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NUKE: The powers that be on the coalition media department.
Very little leaves Iraq without the approval of the coalition. If you think you know anything about what goes on in Iraq in reality today, you're mistaken.
And btw. Nuke you're 100% right about what you said.. Saddam truly didn't let those pictures spread out. He was the master of control and ingenious in propaganda. Just look at his selection for Information minister.. :)
It's so much easyer to kill and torture people if they just disappear from thier homes and nobody ever hears from them again.
We all are fed only the information that the coalition wants us to have. We were all fed only with the information Saddam wanted us to have when he was in power.
I never questioned the authenticity of the pictures, it would just be dumb to state those are the pictures you will never see from the war. The reality couldn't be any more different.
And to Grunherz: Your fellow Americans will find out with certainty that you're an opportunist backstabber. You've already proved yourself enough, no need to further resort in low class attacks.
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"Very little leaves Iraq without the approval of the coalition. If you think you know anything about what goes on in Iraq in reality today, you're mistaken."
Any proof to backup this asinine statement? Ohhh can't be any proof because "Very little leaves Iraq without the approval of the coalition"
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Gyro are you naive or just pretending to be one?
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actually they shows these pics all the time
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Yeah its kinda ironic that the pictures are direct links from a *.mil official site.. Lol!
Pictures are from --->>>//www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2003/
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"Gyro are you naive or just pretending to be one?
"
I see you didn't answer my question. So if you say it's true then it's got to be true then.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
NUKE: The powers that be on the coalition media department.
Very little leaves Iraq without the approval of the coalition. If you think you know anything about what goes on in Iraq in reality today, you're mistaken.
Siaf_csf I respect your opinion. I don't pretend to have inside information regarding current events in Iraq and you shouldn't pretend to either.
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Siaf as usual you are so full of crap..
This country has helped me so much and improved my life and given me all sorts of opportunities and cahnces that I never dreamed about while living in old yugoslavia - frankly I'm pissed of at your comment. How bout this siaf Ill go on liking america and you go on hating it?
Must really suck to be you siaf, wrong all the time and now your best 3rd world dictator buddy is gone...
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GRUNHERZ GO HOME!!!!!!:mad:
;)
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I am home. :D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I am home. :D
Glad to have you sir!
p.s. Airhead, whatever you posted took 50 minuts to d/l and nothing appears in your post other than "go home"
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Gyro why don't you just go ahead and ask me to prove there is a God while you're at it.
It takes only common sense to realise the media has published only clean, nice and approved shots of the incident. It's very rare to see any material which includes pain, horror, blood etc. occurrences as they happen in Iraq. Instead you see nice images of lgb guidance devices recording the videogame blasts and coalition forces being padded in the back by Iraqis. That in itself is proof enough.. Or are you trying to tell me that's all that happens out there? :)
Maybe you believe it.
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And to Grunherz.. I don't hate America, I hate backstabbing phoney opportunists as you. That I admit.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
ask me to prove there is a God while you're at it.
I'd like to see that as well.
btw have you ever served in military?
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actually pictures have been posted of some little kid with his head blown out, of some man who lost his whole family standing in the middle of their coffins..
but it's very telling how you get so pissed off when someone tries to show the good side of things.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Try posting some pictures of brains splattered over the baghdad resident area walls.
That's right, you can't. "They" made sure of that you won't get access to such material.
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Well siaf to that I can tell you I am proud to be an american, while you are proud to be an ass....
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Grunherz I'm proud to be what? Oh, does your new freedom limit you from using profanity in the public? Too bad.
At least I found a matching word for you that's not included in the 'bad word' list. Opportunist.
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but it's very telling how you get so pissed off when someone tries to show the good side of things.
Kanth kanth kanth.. tsk tsk..
Read the post again and switch the brain on.
I get pissed when someone posts propaganda from an official .mil site and then titles it 'images you will never see.'
That's a contradiction in terms and can't pass uncommented with a sarcastic smile.
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Opportunist?
Siaf = Bistro?
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Who is Bistro?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Yeah its kinda ironic that the pictures are direct links from a *.mil official site.. Lol!
Pictures are from --->>>//www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2003/
Sheesh, Siaf .... you're still a moron.
From the same damned site (http://jccc.afis.osd.mil/LBOX/mini/785667.jpg) :rolleyes:
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Gosh Arlo.. I take everything I said back. That was really graphic.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Gosh Arlo.. I take everything I said back. That was really graphic.
What ... from "propaganda feel good bs" to "not graphic enough for my tastes"? You need help. Seek it. :rolleyes:
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Arlo a single dead body in a desert hardly describes the real events. I'm not going to try to convince you to believe anything. However I will criticise the blatant naivism. :)
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Grunherz I'm proud to be what? Oh, does your new freedom limit you from using profanity in the public? Too bad.
At least I found a matching word for you that's not included in the 'bad word' list. Opportunist.
You are proud of being an hateful little twirp who has so far been wrong about everything regarding this war...
Go on call me phoney, I'm sure that somehow makes makes you feel better. Surely I must be a phoney to like this cesspool of america after having lived in a socialist workers paradise..
I bet you are one of those old angolan communists, hell I bet youre the illegitimate son of a cuban soldier and youre just pissed because you have no daddy.. :D
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Arlo a single dead body in a desert hardly describes the real events. I'm not going to try to convince you to believe anything. However I will criticise the blatant naivism. :)
What a semi-trailer load of hogwash. You stroll into this thread as if none of us have seen a single picture of a burnt, bloody or mangled body from the recent conflict in Iraq. We see them everyday, bud. From the MSNBC site to other major western news agencies to anti-war and/or anti-American agenda sites ... we see them all. The title of this thread says it all. These are the pictures that cover the stuff that the rest of the media isn't interested in. The humanitarian efforts in Iraq. How quick you are to jump up and down and cry that it's all lies. Staged publicity. All contrived to cover up that people have suffered and died. What's the matter? Can't bear the possibility that there's American troops in Iraq that care about the Iraqi people and are trying to help them? Is that thought so repulsive to you? Or does it threaten to collapse your own prejudiced reality like a house of cards? ;)
We're naive'? We're deluded? Yeah ... you convinced me. LOL :D
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Arlo as usual you totally missed the whole point of my post.
You can NOT say 'pictures you never see' AND post links to the official web site of the government. That is simply not logical.
Nowhere, at no time did I question the validity of the images. Nor did I claim they were the absolute truth. All information should be taken with a grain of salt.
Believing the coalition blindly takes you as far from the truth as believing Baghdad Bob in his press conference.
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I couldn't really give two ****s what your rationale is.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I get pissed when someone posts propaganda from an official .mil site and then titles it 'images you will never see.'
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Another thing about Siaf calling me a phoney is his perfect english and left-wing Berkely style politics while caliming to be from Angola..
Who are you really? What are you hiding behind you twirp?
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And you seem to have missed the whole point of the thread, Siaf. The title is fine .... it's message is fine. These are the pictures the media doesn't feed to the public. These are pictures the public must seek out and find..... unless you think all pcs in this country are sold with this site bookmarked. Because, yousee, Siaf ... these pictures don't "sell". You can cry "propoganda" all you want .... but it doesn't wash if ya gotta "go lookin' for it", does it? ;)
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Grunherz are you implying that someone from Angola can't master the english language?
What if I studied in Berkeley with the support of my diamond-mining father? :)
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Arlo, it's fine. I raised heated debate and that was fun.
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Yes there is an evil side on war.
But i think it's the good part where doing it for.
nice pics.
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Actually, Siaf ... I always thought you were probably one of the "elite" of Angolan society. Well insulated from the daily realities. ;)
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Hmmmm... pictures like this are easy to find.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Arlo a single dead body in a desert hardly describes the real events. I'm not going to try to convince you to believe anything. However I will criticise the blatant naivism. :)
Here is the real picture.
More people died each year of starvation in Iraq due to Saddam siphoning the money from the Food for Oil program into his military and his own pockets.
Sure there are civilian casualties.There are in every war.
But no country ever has gone to the extremes that the U.S. did to avoid them in this war despite Iraqi army regulars losing their uniforms and the suicide bombers.
In a few short years Iraq will be a much better place.So,my question to you is this;
Do you think it would have been better for the U.S. to not take this action,knowing that many thousands will die of starvation or disease each year?
MANY more than have and will have died in this conflict so far.
Do you really believe Iraq was better off before than they will be in the coming years?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Grunherz are you implying that someone from Angola can't master the english language?
What if I studied in Berkeley with the support of my diamond-mining father? :)
I'll take that as an admission. Pretty good troll. I just dont get though, why does an american like you hate his country so much?
Do you really experience living conditions here so bad that you think america is worthy of so much disdain from you?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Glad to have you sir!
p.s. Airhead, whatever you posted took 50 minuts to d/l and nothing appears in your post other than "go home"
All I added was a wink at the bottom of my post, Nuke. No viruses, no boobies, nothing like that, really.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Hmmmm... pictures like this are easy to find.
Hmmmm .. yeah ... but ya still gotta find `em. They ain't plastered on your TV set, your telephone poles or the walls of your city. For the most part, I bet porn's even easier to find. ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
Hmmmm .. yeah ... but ya still gotta find `em. They ain't plastered on your TV set, your telephone poles or the walls of your city. For the most part, I bet porn's even easier to find. ;)
Actually, they are plastered... I've lost count of the number of PowerPoint slide shows that have showed up here and in my email.
WRT porn... nothing is easier to find on the net than porn. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Actually, they are plastered... I've lost count of the number of PowerPoint slide shows that have showed up here and in my email.
WRT porn... nothing is easier to find on the net than porn. :)
The porn was just an analogy, I really didn't want to know how much of it you recieve in your email. ;)
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Sorry Siaf__csf,
If you want me to believe there is a conspiracy by coalition media departments to repress the horrors of war pictures. You'll going to have to prove it to me. You saying it's true does not make it true.
From my point of view. All you have expressed is your opinion. Which is no more valid that any opinions that I may have that can not be backup with hard facts.
If this makes me naive, then you done a damn poor job proving to me that you are right.
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Sox: I really do believe that the invasion to Iraq will result in a better life for the Iraqis providing that the government to be will not be elected with free elections.
The country needs something like 'enlightened dictator' at the moment. I'm afraid that if Iraqis would have thier say at the moment there would be an islamic government and that's not something we want out of all this.
However I'm highly sarcastic about the proclaimed reasons for this invasion.
Grunherz: I'm really not Angolan or American. I feel cowardly, but you are right, I'm hiding my true identity. :)
and /edit/ I must strongly point out that I do _not_ hate America or americans. That does also _not_ mean I must agree with them all the time. Does that clarify my stand? I'm a friend with an opinnion, and I do cast out some critic.
If everyone who criticises the policies of the country are now labeled anti-american, your country is going on a dangerous, isolationist path. It used to be deep-rooted in the american way to be able to express yourself and to be able to fight the government if need be.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Sox: I really do believe that the invasion to Iraq will result in a better life for the Iraqis providing that the government to be will not be elected with free elections.
The country needs something like 'enlightened dictator' at the moment. I'm afraid that if Iraqis would have thier say at the moment there would be an islamic government and that's not something we want out of all this.
However I'm highly sarcastic about the proclaimed reasons for this invasion.
Fair enough.
I disagree on the free election issue however.
I respect your opinion on GWB's motives.I believe that after most of the fighting is done,wmd will be found.Personally,I don't care what his motives are,Saddam needed to go.
Time will tell.
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I dont aree with everything america does either and i dont think its perfect - nothing ever is, but i do know that for me its the best place in the world and has allowed me to make some mistakes and rebound from them and be succesful - I think its great.
However i feel that your presentation lends itself to being taken as anti-american because among other things you seem to derive genuine joy and express glee whenever anything goes wrong or there is any hiccup in the war. That just sets people off and make us think youre a bad guy who hates us.
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Well Grunherz sometimes I enjoy to bait and troll. That often makes people jump the gun on me and label me as liberal or anti-american - especially when I disagree with thier expressive opinnions. :)
I'm sure that if we met face to face we'd come along just fine. In fact we have something in common.. My step father is ex-croatian so I've spent a fair amount of vacations back at your old country. While I must agree with you on the country not giving you similar opportunities as the US, I can't bash it either. Especially post-tito times.. People seem happy and free, and business is looming.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Umm these are the pictures the propaganda machine ENSURES everyone WILL see. LOL those pictures could be from the 'propaganda 101 textbook'
Try posting some pictures of brains splattered over the baghdad resident area walls.
That's right, you can't. "They" made sure of that you won't get access to such material.
You're an idiot
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I don't get why some people are calling for the images of morbid scenese of death. Just like in any fatal car accident, we all know what happens and I'm not sure if a picture of a severed head in the roadway is needed. But yes, this war involves death, destruction and injury and if you didn't know that kind of stuff happens, you need to stop eating so many paint chips. But for the most part in this war, the opposition hasn't been what it could have been and pictures of happy Iraqis rejoicing with coalition troops is nothing bad and it is a very newsworthy element of this war. Get over it. You people really do not care about lives or else you would've been protesting Saddam for the past 30-years and maybe commenting on Chechnya at least once or twice and so many other things going on in this world.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
actually they shows these pics all the time
You're an idiot as well
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Puke the point is that by controlling the media it's easyer to stop the anti-war movements of the country.
Every person should be natively against a war.. I'm dumbfounded to see people who actually support it. That leads to wonder if they'd still support it if they actually saw the reality of the killing.
Sure Saddam was bad. Sure he needed to be removed from power. Did the US do right in doing so? That remains to be questioned.
This conflict opened a whole new ballpark to international relations. A ballpark that will affect the national stability and security severely. It set an example of which one can only hope other nations won't try to follow.
I'm not thrilled at all to see what will come out of GWB's announcement regarding to Syrian chemical weapons.
Considering that he still hasn't found plausible evidence even from Iraq, it sounds only he's planning of recycling the old excuse.
And to Rude: You make yourself look so smart posting like that!
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Puke the point is that by controlling the media it's easyer to stop the anti-war movements of the country.
Every person should be natively against a war.. I'm dumbfounded to see people who actually support it. That leads to wonder if they'd still support it if they actually saw the reality of the killing.
Sure Saddam was bad. Sure he needed to be removed from power. Did the US do right in doing so? That remains to be questioned.
This conflict opened a whole new ballpark to international relations. A ballpark that will affect the national stability and security severely. It set an example of which one can only hope other nations won't try to follow.
I'm not thrilled at all to see what will come out of GWB's announcement regarding to Syrian chemical weapons.
Considering that he still hasn't found plausible evidence even from Iraq, it sounds only he's planning of recycling the old excuse.
And to Rude: You make yourself look so smart posting like that!
You are so cynical. My wife supported the war, my mother-in-law supported it even. They both survived a genocidal maniac.
Those pictures of the happy Iraqi's are pretty indicative of whats going on there. Watching BBC this week I saw a lot of live uncut footage, particularly of one guy who was posted in Baghdad (ie not US 'embedded'), he was roaming the streets around the Palestine Hotel and interviewing Iraqi's on the street. It was amazing, they were so happy to be free of Saddam. I also watched the toppling of the statue live, seeing that HUGE 'strongman' guy come out and just smack into the statue with the sledgehammer, very memorable moments.
I'm dumbfounded to see you posting such rubbish. You're just another armchair politician taking the moral high ground of inaction.
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I'm sure all of us have lots in common and I bet most of us would along fine in real life situations..
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Vulcan excuse me, but I'm posting rubbish?
If we're strict about the subject, your government attacked Iraq with the reason being an immediate threat to the US. It had officically nothing to do with liberating Iraq from Saddams rule, that came as a side effect.
So far nothing backs up the claims made before the war, so you're standing on shallow ground if we search for justification.
The outcome may be good, even the intent might be good. But the effect of pre-emptive strikes on the international community may lead into a divided planet once again. Only difference being this time it's not US / USSR anymore, it's coalition / non-coalition.
That setup sounds awfully much like what happened in the birth of WW2.
Hell you're right, I'm just a keyboard politician and I truly don't have ready answers for these issues. I don't think anyone has. All I know is that I hate to see people suffering no matter if it's Saddam or George doing the deeds.
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I must admit I used to be as racist as the psuedo intellectuals regarding Iraqis' ability to govern themselves, but I've changed my mind and I think it's worth a try regardless.
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One tard leaves... another takes it's place.
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Siaf__csf is simply a drive by anti-american post tease, a phoney, full of meaningless noise and bluster.. he ain't from angola, his message is 'american equals imperialitic warmonger(s)' intent on what ever the worlds ugly evil bad thing of the day is.
he deserves as much attention as your brown-eye does after pinching off a good loaf.
wipe, flush; move on.
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Puke the point is that by controlling the media it's easyer to stop the anti-war movements of the country.
Siaf, yes, you post complete rubbish. Our media is definitely not controlled and there are in fact media from all over the world imbedded with the troops. I would guess the majority of people are against war in general, it's costly in so many ways. But many of us recognize when force is necessary. And this conflict did not open any new ballpark to international relations. How old are you? Don't you read history? I'm of the opinion that the only thing that will ever unite this planet of ours would be the attack by creatures from elsewhere, sadly. Otherwise, we tend to squabble and fight be it between nations, north vs south, state vs state or even high school vs high school. But back to the point, there is no control of the media and there are so many avenues to go for the news be it the miriad of newspapers to news channels, radio and the Internet. To think GW or our military can control all that means your tinfoil cap is cutting off the oxygen to your brain. Posting photos of severed limbs does not prove any point about there being a fair and non-biased media, none whatsoever. It's no more news-worthy than faces of smiling Iraqis welcoming our troops or helping out in reclaiming our POWs. Go rent Faces Of Death if you want to see blood, or view that posting placed here somewhere of the Russian soldier being murdered if that's what you need to feel proof the media isn't controlled.
So far nothing backs up the claims made before the war, so you're standing on shallow ground if we search for justification.
Now you are being ridiculous. Combat is still ongoing. I take it you firmly believe that combat can be completed, the investigation of records and interrogation of VIPs can be completed, the search for WMDs completed, peace and order in the cities and a new government up and running w/out burp or hiccup can be completed in 4-weeks. You are a madman. Right now, job one is to supress and defeat resistance before any serious effort on those other accounts can begin.
Hell you're right, I'm just a keyboard politician and I truly don't have ready answers for these issues. I don't think anyone has. All I know is that I hate to see people suffering no matter if it's Saddam or George doing the deeds.
Here's the thing, war is ugly and it's a shame people have to die. But the suffering is almost over. No more starvation in Iraq by the UN for their 2.2% skim off the top of the Oil For Food debacle where even buying a refrigerator for the local butcher is next to impossible. No more murder by Saddam or by his son who would've followed him as the leader in Iraq and might've lasted another 50-yrs or more of grotesque murder of who knows how many innocent people. Can't you see the forest for the trees?
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way cool
thanks for the pix post
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Siaf__csf is simply a drive by anti-american post tease, a phoney, full of meaningless noise and bluster.. he ain't from angola, his message is 'american equals imperialitic warmonger(s)' intent on what ever the worlds ugly evil bad thing of the day is.
he deserves as much attention as your brown-eye does after pinching off a good loaf.
wipe, flush; move on.
LOL right on!
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awesome pics mister fork can u post anymore?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
And to Rude: You make yourself look so smart posting like that!
And ya know, I was thinking the same thing. We agree on something.
Instead of entering into a debate with a person who admittedly is just tweeking people looking for heated reaction, he cut to the chase called it as he saw it and moved on to the next.
I would put a few others on that same list, but that will wait.
People who use the emotion of these times to inflame others just to get them inflamed, who could really give a rats bellybutton about the real issues and do nothing but stir the pot are truly idiots.
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Funked could you please make Siaf a new tinfoil hat, I think his has worn out.
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- 7 Use more tape to secure AFDB to your cranium.
A Note About The Shiny Side:[/size]
It can't be stressed enough how important it is to have the shiny side pointing out. This is needed because the shiny side is most reflective to psychotronic radiation, while the dull side can actually, in certain environmental conditions, absorb it. However, as is illustrated in the instructions above, it is also wise to complement this with a layer of foil pointing shiny side in. This will keep your brain waves, which are also reflected by the shiny side, from being picked up by mind-reading equipment. There is a small number of aluminum foil researchers who believe that this may cause an alpha-wave harmonic to build up in the skull resulting in memory loss or pseudo-religious visions, but their findings have never been replicated by the aluminum foil research community at large. Even if their findings are validated, the risk involved is small compared to the potential of mind-intrusion.
Foil Thickness:[/size]
How thick is your aluminum foil? Find out using Zapato Productions Intradimensional's Aluminum Foil Thickness formula :
((mass / 2.702) / (width * length)) * 10000 = thickness in microns
*If your foil is less than 16 microns, increase the number of layers used in construction.
Optional:[/size]
You may augment your AFDB with random bits of foil, wire, small electronic parts, etc..
Canadian coins should also be considered as they are high in nickel content. Nickel, while not having the psychotronic deflecting properties of aluminum (or even tin), can act to refract psychotronic beams, thereby helping to scrambling the mind control signals as they are deflected off of the underlying aluminum surface of the AFDB. This will result in a lowered chance of retransmission of the signal.
However, you should avoid American and European coins at all costs as they contain aluminum based mind control circuitry. Canadian coins are free of this threat mainly due to the Canadian government's choice of neglecting psychotronic research in favor of research into giant robotics.
Tips:[/size]
- Tinsel is made of plastic and has no anti-psychotronic attributes.
- Painting your AFDB won't degrade its abilities, so you can be mentally safe AND color-coordinated too!
- "Beer can hats", though made out of aluminum cans, are not as effective as an AFDB since they have gaps inbetween the cans. You may, however, line a beer can hat with an AFDB or even glue the cans directly on an AFDB.
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And Skuzzy closed my thread! Amazing.
dago
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Siaf__csf is simply a drive by anti-american post tease, a phoney, full of meaningless noise and bluster.. he ain't from angola, his message is 'american equals imperialitic warmonger(s)' intent on what ever the worlds ugly evil bad thing of the day is.
he deserves as much attention as your brown-eye does after pinching off a good loaf.
wipe, flush; move on.
For once you're actually right. After reading his post re: Artic Storms Christian thing I see that he is just a sad little boy.
Whats with this 'trolling' rubbish? Are people really that desperate for attention and have no lives so badly that they have to 'troll' this sort of crap on the net?
Mebbe we should all pitch in and get him a hooker so he can finally loose his virginity and come into the real world.