Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: beet1e on April 13, 2003, 04:49:29 PM
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Shawk! You wanted to see the films I recorded, in which you died. I’m afraid the F6F one did not get saved for some reason. But never mind. The 109G10 v 190D9 was an excellent fite. It did kind of go on a bit, but no way was I going to climb up into a fite, especially as the whole debacle began with you enjoying an alt advantage greater than 4K. But your rope-a-dopes were well executed.
How did this get started? Well folks, Shawk didn’t like being shot by my F6F earlier as I attempted to defend V45, and admittedly shawk had dealt me a mortal blow, but he died first. I also got a few of his friends, and they were a bit pissed off. One of them had lawn darted as he attempted to bomb my Ostwind! :rolleyes: Then I nobbled Shawks Goon! Shawk should have had his engine volume turned down. That way he would have HEARD me creeping up on him – LOL.
So then the egos start swelling up, and Shawk grabs a few friends – Hornet, kamori and JinX, and as far as I can tell, judging by the commentary they make during the fight, they’re all aboard shawk’s 190 as observers! What happened, shawk? Bet you told them you were going to whip some limey arse. Hehe, didn’t quite work out that way, did it, me old china. :) (China = china plate – cockney rhyming slang for mate) So now the pressure is on shawk. He HAS to deliver a result, or look a wuss in front of his friends. I, on the other hand, can bide my time. :D
Let’s examine the engagement. You had: A faster plane, a more manoeuvrable plane, and began in my 6 with a 4K alt advantage. You had all those cards, and you still blew it. I had: a good climbing plane, was near home base and had some ack protection. Plus I had something that Shawk finally lost – patience. Note – two PNZRs at the field progressively destroyed the ack, and this was pointed out in the text buffer by one of Shawk’s passengers, so I can’t be accused of relying on ack cover, especially in the latter stages.
- 00:01 Shawk shows up, with a 4-5K alt advantage.
- I almost go for one of shawk’s ropes, but quickly realise the danger!
- 11:18 Shawk begins to lose his alt. advantage, and I try to get a little closer to his plane. I tried for a shot, but too much distance between us, but finally I manage to get on Shawk’s 6.
- 12:02 I land some hits on Shawk as he reverses on to me. Was this an attempted HO, I wonder... Lost control of the 109 for a moment.
- 12:40 Shawk has started to throw away his E. Now I am faster – can I catch him?
- It looked good, but turns out that Shawk had reversed for another HO attempt!
- 14:00 oops, I misjudge his speed, and as I try to evade, he lands a few hits on me!
- 14:07 Desperate to get closer, I reverse on to Shawk, knowing that he will also reverse, and maybe attempt another HO. I complete my reversal, and then use the climbing ability of the 109G10 to get closer to Shawk. He has not finished his reversal as he attempts to conserve E, and never gets guns solution on me. I dish out the killer blow, which has Shawk’s plane separate into multiple pieces. But as he falls to earth, Docc nails him with the field gun. Shawk accuses Docc of an HO – but there are no other planes around - LOL! Docc exits the position, and his three kill credits are awarded. I would love to have got the credit for that kill, but it was worth letting Docc nail Shawk just to see Shawk accuse him of an HO – from a field gun – ROFL!!!! Looking at the way shawk flies, you’d think he’d know what an HO looks like! LOL
A great 15 minutes of fun. I loved the way your friends tried to barrack me in the text buffer, hoping to rob me of concentration. Didn’t think you’d need that kind of help. ;) Shawk, with a little more practice (15 mins/day for the next week) you could become a good Dora pilot. :) Carry on like that, and you could be great! But just remember the patience thing!
So, until next time, take care, and...
Toodle-Pip! :D:D:D:D
:p
Long version (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/film72.zip) of film - the entire engagement.
Short version (http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/film72_1333.zip) - begins where Shawk gets hits on me but fails to finish job, and shows end game - and death of shawk.
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1. the links dont work.
2. no need to gloat.
3. a dora which chooses to fight is one of the easiest kills. it's solely built for boring it's victim to death and then running (while doing the silly floppy dance). only a handful of guys around the MA can actually fight in them (I said FIGHT, not cherry pick). You want a fight? fight an A5.
4. the G10 is faster almost at any altitude
(exept on the deck).
Bozon
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.......and you've had too much to drink..
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Originally posted by bozon
1. the links dont work.
2. no need to gloat.
3. a dora which chooses to fight is one of the easiest kills. it's solely built for boring it's victim to death and then running (while doing the silly floppy dance). only a handful of guys around the MA can actually fight in them (I said FIGHT, not cherry pick). You want a fight? fight an A5.
4. the G10 is faster almost at any altitude
(exept on the deck).
Bozon
LOL, well said.
Preach it brother bozon! :D
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The nice thing about Beet1e being in here and gloating, is that he's not in the MA arena terrorizing us with all of his online ability. I personally feel safer knowing that after every kill, he comes in here to brag and pat his back leaving me a short time to log in and fly in relative safety.
Keep it up Beet1e, people like you frighten me.
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Good on you Scramble :)
Beetle tellen it as it is :)
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Originally posted by TheManx
The nice thing about Beet1e being in here and gloating, is that he's not in the MA arena terrorizing us with all of his online ability. I personally feel safer knowing that after every kill, he comes in here to brag and pat his back leaving me a short time to log in and fly in relative safety.
Keep it up Beet1e, people like you frighten me.
I'm actually surprised that beet1e had the cajones to actually engage in a fight all by himself.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by bozon
1. the links dont work.
2. no need to gloat.
3. a dora which chooses to fight is one of the easiest kills. it's solely built for boring it's victim to death and then running (while doing the silly floppy dance). only a handful of guys around the MA can actually fight in them (I said FIGHT, not cherry pick). You want a fight? fight an A5.
4. the G10 is faster almost at any altitude
(exept on the deck).
Bozon
ROFL...
Now, let's see. [list=1]- The links DO work. I checked before posting. You have to save the files, then unzip 'em, and THEN view with the AH film viewer.
- Gloat? I explicitly stated in the title that this thread was for shawk & friends. Guess he has more friends than I thought! - I meant the ones he was flying with this afternoon. Shawk wanted the films, but I don't have his email address, so posted here. And hey - I was having to put up with all sorts of barracking from those guys - why should I not barrack them?
- I agree - the A5 is my favourite 190 - climbs best out of all of 'em too - check AH performance data.
- You're wrong. I did my own performance test with the 109G10 and the 190D9. Up to 10K with WEP, 190D9 had the VSI hard over at 4K/minute! I thought the G10 was supposed to be the fastest climber. At 10K after 4 minutes, the 190D9 was crusing at just over 400mph. The G10 never made it above 380 or maybe 385. However, I did have gondolas on this flight. In each case, I used 50% fuel. Can't be arsed to repeat the 109 test without gondolas. It is enough to know that the Dora was faster than my 109 in this fight. But I knew that already. :D
Nopoop! Too much to drink? Naaah. Two glasses of wine, Barbera D'Alba from Italy. Of course, I realise that's considered a skinful on your side of the pond - LOL! But don't worry. I have the body mass to deal with it!
And so to bed. I need to sleep off those two glasses of wine I had. LOL ;)
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One thing you need to learn is that people like a gracious winner. Thats why everyone loves Drex and a lot of people think I'm a salamander.
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actually I was on the other side of the map but keep yapping little doggy, I'm sure your la7 death squads will be along shortly to rain on your parade :)
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Originally posted by Urchin
One thing you need to learn is that people like a gracious winner. Thats why everyone loves Drex
Good point Urchin. Blowing one's own horn requires having to pucker...and blow.
Good job Beet1e, you have the blowing part down quite well..
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Originally posted by Urchin
One thing you need to learn is that people like a gracious winner. Thats why everyone loves Drex and a lot of people think I'm a salamander.
LOL! I can relate to that :D
Ok, I just watched that film. You're gloating because of THAT?!?!?! SHawk was being very timid, but he was also in a timidly-oriented plane. And you... you kept making a purely defensive break, basically forceing his hand and making him zoom up again. Maybe it's not a purely defensive break, but it is against anyone with half a brain.
I really don't see why you're gloating about making spit S's until he gets bored, and then taking several HO potshots with a G10 carrying gondies. It really makes no sense to me. That wasn't a fight... it much more closely resembled a staring contest than a fight. In fact, I found that "fight" so boring and tedious that I had to watch most of it in fast forward.
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Oh, and I forgot to mention... since when does the dora turn better than a G10? Even when carrying gondies (not very bright) the G10 out turns a dora.
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Originally posted by Urchin
One thing you need to learn is that people like a gracious winner. Thats why everyone loves Drex and a lot of people think I'm a salamander.
There is one other difference, Urchin. :)
curly
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Urchin - don't put yourself down! You are one of the good guys - a helpful one. I still have your notes about G10 v. various other aircraft printed out on my desk here.
Hornet - never did see the LA7 death squads.
Wetrat. Thanks for confirming that the links DO work. <:p bozon!>
No, not a gloat. I thought I made that clear. I also thought I had made clear that I am not a very strong 109 pilot, hence threads like the one about needing help from the 109Gx Experten. In this "fight", there was no way for me to get close to Shawk - except on his terms. He kept the vertical distance quite well. The point was that here we had a guy who had set out to nail me, and taunted me from the start (TRAK shoes remark). Sure, if a guy whacks me and it was a gentlemanly fight, the first thing I'll do is type name. Happened last night with Wilbus. But if someone is going to taunt me and show off in front of his friends, then he deserves a bit of ribbing when it all goes pear shaped.
Yeah, course it was boring. That's why I uploaded the short version. Do please advise me how I could have handled it better. You know how I'm always looking for tips on how better to fly the 109Gx. :D
Does the G10 out turn the Dora? Or is that more BS like the G10 "is faster" than the Dora - disproven by my own tests. I'm surprised at the negative remarks about the Dora here. I think it's an outstanding plane, and can sometimes do well in it.
Anyway, wetrat. Didn't you say something about leaving soon? Please stay. I like people who take me to task on this BBS, and AH is better with you in it. :)
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Hornet - never did see the LA7 death squads.
Have you ever? Maybe they're a figment of your imagination, but their psychological affect on your disposition cannot be overstated :)
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Originally posted by beet1e
You're wrong. I did my own performance test with the 109G10 and the 190D9. Up to 10K with WEP, 190D9 had the VSI hard over at 4K/minute! I thought the G10 was supposed to be the fastest climber. At 10K after 4 minutes, the 190D9 was crusing at just over 400mph.
I just had to test this myself. I measured climbing times offline from the moment wheels lifted off from runway to 10K. WEP and autoclimb was used.
Climb time of Bf 109-G10 with 50% fuel, guns (1*30mm+2*20mm+2*13mm): 2 min 28 sec.
Climb time of Fw190D-9 with 50% fuel: 2 min. 43 sec.
Climb time of La-7 with 50% fuel: 2 min. 40s
At 10K plane was levelled and accelerated to 300mph indicated with WEP. Total times from the liftoff from the runway:
Bf 109G-10: 3 min. 22 sec.
Fw 190D-9: 3 min. 45 sec.
La-7: 3 min. 47 sec.
Performance of the La-7 and Dora is practically identical, but G10 is clearly the best, with or without wing gondolas.
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Hornet! Oh those LA7s - the ones that come to me in my sleep! No, I haven't seen them for a few nights now. :)
TimRas - thanks for doing that test. My main focus was on the top speed of each plane. The rate of climb in the Dora was an observation, and I was not measuring acceleration at all. I would like to test this further, so will do your tests, and monitor more closely the climb rate throughout the whole 10K climb. What was the best level cruising speed you got for each plane, and at what alts?
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Yes, the 109G10 will out turn the Dora pretty handily. With gondolas it is a little more dicey, but you should still be able to do it.
Like I said before, the gondolas impact the 109s performance in a big way. Basically what you do when you put gondolas on a G10 is turn it into a imitation Dora. You lose the performance you need to really fight aggressively in the vertical plane, so you are limited to Boom n Zoom tactics, which the 109 isn't particularly well-suited for due to the stiff controls at high speed.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
There is one other difference, Urchin. :)
curly
Yeah....Urchin seems to be slightly more hairy than Drex.
:D
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Urchin - so noted. But that means that the Dora has what - 4 times as many cannon rounds as the G10... I see guys getting 6, 8, even 10 kills with a 109G10. Does this mean they were using gondolas, or did they perhaps simply re-arm between sorties?
I've repeated my offline tests, and paid attention to additional parameters this time. Each plane had 50% fuel, and the G10 had gondolas. WEP was used throughout. Have a look at this.
(http://www.alanadsl.legend.yorks.com/dora.jpg)
Does the 109G10 accelerate better than the Dora? Well, in the test, the G10 reaches 10,000 20 seconds sooner than the Dora, and therefore has an extra 20 seconds in level flight in which to accelerate to its maximum level speed. But despite this, the 190 Dora reaches the 380mph mark at time 4:40 after the start of take off roll - the same as the G10, although the G10 was maxed out by then. Note that the Dora does this despite having 20 seconds of level flight less in which to do it. So to around 370-380, the Dora is arguably much better in terms of acceleration. The Dora then goes on accelerating to just over 400mph, which on my test was reached at time 6:10.
It seems the Dora is faster in terms of acceleration and max level speed, but slower in the climb.
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People who land good sorties in 109's are one of four things:
a) vulchers (most common)
b) rearmers
c) good shots
d) all of the above
The G10 handily out-performs the dora in an actual fight. Climbs better, turns better, accelerates better... without gondolas. Carrying gondolas in a 109 turns the thing into a led sled.
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Originally posted by beet1e
It seems the Dora is faster in terms of acceleration and max level speed, but slower in the climb.
BTW, did you look the speeds from cockpit airspeed indicator ?. When I recorded the flight and looked it with film viewer I got the following top speeds at 10K (true):
G-10 with gondolas: 397 mph
G-10 without gondolas: 410mph
D-9: 404mph
It seems that the airspeed indicators are not very accurate.
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Don't forget that I also float when im drunk.
Drex
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LOL
:D
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Originally posted by wetrat
People who land good sorties in 109's are one of four things:
a) vulchers (most common)
b) rearmers
c) good shots
d) all of the above
They couldnt just be good pilots, Could they? :)
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Originally posted by wetrat
People who land good sorties in 109's are one of four things:
a) vulchers (most common)
b) rearmers
c) good shots
d) all of the above
The G10 handily out-performs the dora in an actual fight. Climbs better, turns better, accelerates better... without gondolas. Carrying gondolas in a 109 turns the thing into a led sled.
LOL Wetrat! I think that sums it up. :)
TimRas - I used the ASI readings only.
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Hey Beet1e..
Come down outta' the Ionosphere with those nose-bleed alt, straight-line vulchers special, lady's planes and do some stall-fighting at 100' agl in an N1K! A MANLY Type plane!
RV6
:-[ grrrrr.. (my mean scowl)
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you beat a luftweenie plane that had alt. and speed adv. over you....WTG beet's:D
always tends to piss off the one that had the adv.....:cool:
I've had 3 hmm vets do that to me.....
2 of em whined like little girls.....after they died....
stick it to em limey...they deserve it.....:eek:
and MANX...beetle is a gentlemen....no need to be sarcastic with em....
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Originally posted by WldThing
They couldnt just be good pilots, Could they? :)
They can be, but just being a good pilot doesn't land you a big sortie without rearming if you're just an average shot. Urchin's a better pilot than me, but I'm a better shot.. so I can more than likely land more without rearming.
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Well wetrat you didnt say that in your earlier post, so i quoted from there...
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TimRas - I used the ASI readings only.
Anyone who have flown the 110 will know not to trust the speed indicators.
Fly the F4F/FM2 and learn not to trust the variometer.
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Once beet1e stops being an prettythanghole, I'll stop being sarcastic to him.
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I filmed a few more level flights at max speed with WEP with the film viewer on. The film viewer, if it is to be believed, would seem to suggest that the 109G10 ASI underreads, whereas the 190D9 Dora ASI is more accurate. The results I got from these tests are as follows.
- 109G10 with gondolas - 398mph.
- 190D9 403mph.
- 109G10 without gondolas - 410mph. :eek:
Draw your own conclusions!
Hey, Manx, what's this about me being an prettythanghole? :confused:
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Originally posted by beet1e
Hey, Manx, what's this about me being an prettythanghole? :confused:
don't know beet's.....this 1 has me lost.
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Beet1e, Beet1e, Beet1e,
By reviewing your own film the short version you did not shoot shawk down a friend in a manned ak gun got shawk...so what are you braggin for ive also seen the film from shawk and you can clearly see that flak got his wing...YOU ARE FULL OF IT..What a joke..Seems to me you couldnt finish the job.....LOL..and whats up with you huggin your base for 10 min. ..
Oh by the way..your quote signiture, "If more guns meant a safer society, then America would be the safest country in the world. It isn't." - a certain movie I saw recently.
You live in a fantasy world......Our country (society) is protected from, roge government takeovers, external ground force attacks on our soil Ie: invasion, and many other protections due to the RIGHT to bare arms....
That is the True Defination of a safe society..In my Book..plus I will protect my self and family from the extremly small percentage of fools who cant be responsible enough to handle a firearm..Have you looked at the # of national Car deaths lately...I did not think so...
When you mature those liberal Views will subside..Lets hope.
Kamori
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^More evidence that they should at least make you take an IQ test before selling you a gun.
bowser
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Hey, Manx, what's this about me being an prettythanghole?
Just an observation I got from the original post.
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ROFL Kamori! :D
I seem to recall you were one of shawk's "passengers" on his ill fated flight to exact revenge upon me. Those vendetta flights so often end in tears...
Review the film again - hehe, I'm flattered you already did it once. You will see that shawk stayed about 4-6K above me - except when bearing down on my 6. I had few options. I freely admit that there's little I can do with a higher, faster enemy in my 6!
The only reason that Shawk got within field gun range was because I had shot one of his wings off - lol - the film clearly shows this. (There was no attempt on his part to shoot the ack at that stage - it was all dead by then) But yes, the kill credit went to the field gun and I only got an assist. Surely you have seen that kind of thing before. The funniest part for me was when Shawk accused the field gunner of HO-ing him - ROFLMAO! an HO - from a field gun! :p
As for the movie, hah - I got a lot of stick for simply having said I'd seen HALF of that movie. I said it was interesting, and reopened an old debate viewed from some different angles. The quote in my sig. block was quite a good one I thought, and was made by an American. But all kinds of people were pissing their pants about it. Seems like you're one of them.
As for living in a fantasy world, do you really think the citizens are going to rise up with their .38 specials to prevent invasion of America from Canada or Mexico? That's the funniest thing I ever heard! Seems like you've got a fantasy world of your own!
Yes, I did recently review the situation on alcohol related car deaths. I saw that America had about 32 times the number we have here in Britain, which surprised me.
I'm looking forward to maturing. I shall turn 50 next year, unless someone shoots me.
Thank you for reading my post, Kamori. Now simmer down! Go and clean your gun. It has a nice calming effect. :D;)
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LoL i found the text buffer more intresting then that "fight"...
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I was wrong in thinking that you were going to mature..its too late it sounds to me you have matured to 20 and stoped. Age dosent mean emotional maturity, forthmore no one was a passenger in his plane we all saw the film and you cowered around the ak.........you pinged him a small amount .....
yes i do believe that the people would rise to defend this country....not that weve had to before....oops almost forgot we did...your county remember..your just a english snob...
I did not mention alchol related deths..just car accidents..
I do aplogize for thinking you were going to grow..you would have had more allies if you claimed to be 20...atleast you would have an excuse..tootles..Hip hip and a tally ho..
Kamori
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ROFL, I think someones a lil obsessed?
All this over Lil ole SHawk.:cool:
I must be doing something right.
Muahahahahahha
Oh, btw beet1e have a great Easter.
And don't let those bunnies conspire to hide those eggs where you can't find em!!!!!
SHawk<<--Beet1e Terrorist
P.S.
Beet1e Terrorist = Anyone within 25miles (or 50 miles if your flying an La7):eek:
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http://www.apechild.com/gallery/hurleyv.php?ddy=09.jpg (http://www.apechild.com/gallery/hurleyv.php?ddy=09.jpg)
i want some of this limey azz
:D :D :D :D :D
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My classic response when this happens is total silence
Of course my practice has always to be a good sport or be nothing at all. Part of being a mature gamer i guess.
I think in 1.5 years of playing AH i have complained on channel 1 twice maybe lol. Thank god they did'nt bring it to the boards hehe.
Shawk was'nt so lucky i guess because i never see him squeak on cha 1 lol
Shawk
Boo Beetle
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Hehe Kamori, feel free to add me to your ignore list. :D
Yes, an armed uprising of citizens in defence of your country? ROFL. Did they teach you to say that at school? Check your calendar, matey - it's 2003, not 1803 - or 1776... .38 not much good against cluster bombs.
Cowered around the ack? After a few minutes it was all dead! Those PNZRs shot it all. Didn't you read that bit either? I could comment further, but it is clear that your powers of reading and comprehension do not justify time spent on providing a lucid reply. And your responses are so riddled with spelling and grammatical errors that I can hardly make sense of what you're trying to say. And even if what you said was word perfect, it probably would fail to make sense anyway.
I don't eat chocolate, so forget the easter eggs. But I AM going away for easter, and won't be here by the time you read this.
Toodle Pip.
:p
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.. shaddup beet1e :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by bowser
^More evidence that they should at least make you take an IQ test before selling you a gun.
Heh....silly Canucks. Why is the rest of the world jealous of the fact that Americans have the right to own a firearm if they wish?
Dont you have some snow to shovel or a polar bear to hunt or something?
:p
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Toodle Pip.
ayeeeee turn down the flames!!!!!
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If it's SHawk from AW he's a bleedin' maroon. Bastage was always at least 5k above me poor l'il 109 in his 190-Dorka O'Doom. Hehehehehe.
That you SHawk? Ifluff'n it is, brutha! LTNS. If things work out right I'll be providing targets once again for your online shooting pleasure purdy soon.