Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: rshubert on April 14, 2003, 09:44:08 AM
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I found an interesting site on the internet with information about the Tiger. Maybe that will help some of the recent discussions about 20mm, 37mm, etc. taking out tigers. I am looking for penetration information on the guns.
Enjoy.
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I forgot the link. Here it is:
http://www.panzer-vi.fsnet.co.uk/specifications.html
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I couldn't penetrate the tiger with 37mm from where ever I shot him, and rockets didn't do the job either...
maybe 40mm will do?
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Use a manned ack gun. I've been killed at least twice in a Tiger by a 37mm manned ack gun.
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hmm, I used a M8
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I found this link, showing armor information for many AFVs. Note that the MkIV J that we use has almost as much top armor as the Tiger. That would imply that anything that will penetrate the top of the MIV will penetrate the Tiger, too.
Maybe the model isn't so bad, after all...
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/germany/fpz4j.htm
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so if I'm right I gotta get the tiger from above, makes sence
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the tiger is an hard one i have read that in wwII the allies, in a open land, use to engage one tigre with five sherman tryng to shoot it from the back:cool:
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The main problem I have had is there is no way AH can (without massive recoding of the program) allow for hits to do damage in the area hit. IE I have hit a Tiger in the treads w/ a 37mm. In RL it would take out the tread and immobilise (sp) the tank, not here. Also in the same engagement I hit the barrel, that would destroy the barrel, again not here.
The damage mod on the Tiger needs help. Its a UbarTank and removes some of the fun from the game.
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I have "killed" many tigers, and been killed in them. They are not an "ubertank" or worth the perk points it takes to get one. As in everything else in AH, it's more the man than the machine.
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When you can hit it four times w/ a Panzer main gun w/o damage. When a full set of rockets from a P-38 does nothing, When 3 bombs hit or near miss from P-51 dosent even stop it..... its a ubartank.
I have killed them, but I think the damage mod is wrong.
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Originally posted by Fridaddy
When you can hit it four times w/ a Panzer main gun w/o damage. When a full set of rockets from a P-38 does nothing, When 3 bombs hit or near miss from P-51 dosent even stop it..... its a ubartank.
I have killed them, but I think the damage mod is wrong.
Yet I have recorded numerous one shot kills from Panzers and disabled the turret or engine in an M-8 several times. All in all I've been killed by about 3-4 tigers and I have killed or disabled a few dozen.
Sakai
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Manable field ack killed me instantly while in a tiger this tour 2X.
Tiger is crap.
not worth 60 perks
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some historical fact:
One of, if not, the first Tiger knocked out and captured by the British in Africa was hit with 57mm AT rounds. One can view this Tiger at Bovington.
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Originally posted by Fridaddy
The main problem I have had is there is no way AH can (without massive recoding of the program) allow for hits to do damage in the area hit. IE I have hit a Tiger in the treads w/ a 37mm. In RL it would take out the tread and immobilise (sp) the tank, not here. Also in the same engagement I hit the barrel, that would destroy the barrel, again not here.
The damage mod on the Tiger needs help. Its a UbarTank and removes some of the fun from the game.
It was an uber tank in real life though, and i've killed tigers with m8s numorous times, shoot the turret, shoot the engine, keep pumping shells in his rectum till he blows.
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M8 can only kill them cause the tiger starts rocking so bad.
Panzer IV H should not be something that a tiger 1 ignores frontaly. It can in the game.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
some historical fact:
One of, if not, the first Tiger knocked out and captured by the British in Africa was hit with 57mm AT rounds. One can view this Tiger at Bovington.
Detailed data on 57mm/6pdr penetration is here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Molins.htm
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion
forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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I've killed Tigers in a Panzer at less than 1,000 yards shooting into their front armor. On the other hand, I have never ever killed a Tiger with an M8... I've pumped 50 rounds into the rear end of a couple of them once someone else disabled thier turrets, and nothing. This is from literally point blank range.
I did find some penetration data on the 37mm gun the M8 uses- even shooting AP rounds the M8 could not penetrate any armor on the Tiger at any range (except for the top armor, which would likely take a bit of work). So it does appear that the M8 is modelled correctly vis a vis the Tiger.
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I finally got a response from the folks at the RAF museum, and here is the gist of it:
From: Guy Revell [mailto: guy.revell@rafmuseum.org]
To: rshubert@excite.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:46:22 +0100
Subject: Reply from RAF Museum Re: Hispano 20mm cannon AP properties
RAFM/32/6/GR
Mr. R. Shubert
Newburgh
Indiana
47630
USA
28th May 2003
Dear Mr. Shubert,
Thank you for your enquiry which was received on 14th April 2003. You wished
to receive information relating to the armour piercing properties of the
20mm Hispano-Suiza cannon as fitted to RAF aircraft of the Second World War.
The penetrative effects of the gun were obviously dependent on the
ammunition type used, but the thickest armour that I can find reference to
as being pierced by a 20mm round is 18mm. This is obviously short of the
25mm mentioned in your enquiry.
The 20mm cannon was originally intended for air-to-air combat work, and
ground strafing was a secondary consideration. Indeed it was not until June
1940 that the Air Staff started to look at the potential of attacking tanks
with aircraft and 20mm was declared to be too lightweight. It was this which
led to the development of the 40mm Vickers 'S' gun for use on the Hurricane
IID which entered operational service in June 1942. I hope that I have been
able to assist you with your research.
Yours sincerely,
GUY REVELL
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Originally posted by Fridaddy
The main problem I have had is there is no way AH can (without massive recoding of the program) allow for hits to do damage in the area hit. IE I have hit a Tiger in the treads w/ a 37mm. In RL it would take out the tread and immobilise (sp) the tank, not here. Also in the same engagement I hit the barrel, that would destroy the barrel, again not here.
Which is curious since I can target a wing root or the tail of an aircraft and do damage to a specific area. *scratches head*
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Very odd indeed, seeing as how the only effective way to use the M8 against heavy armor is to target specific areas (like the turret, engine compartment, etc.
I think the poster that suggested AH doesn't model location specific damage is quite mistaken.
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I'm not sure it is THAT specific. For instance, hitting one of the wheels with a 37mm AP round from an M8 would probably (I hope) immobilize the Tiger. At least if it was one of the big ones (and no, I ain't got a clue what they are called). However, you can shoot those all day long and it may take 10 rounds to knock out the tread, or it may never happen at all.
Similarly, you can aim a round at the barrel of the gun and more than likely not disable it, since it is counted as part of the turret and the M8 cannot penetrate the turret armor from any facing. I've never disabled the turret on a Tiger with an M8, and I've tried numerous times. I disabled the engine once, but even that shouldn't be possible if the penetration data I found for the 37mm on the M8 is accurate.
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Urchin because of those overlapping roadwheels the weight of the Tiger was spreaded in wide area and losing the outer wheel (maybe inner one too) wasn't anything you couldn't handle.
Actually the outer wheels were removed and thinner transportation tracks were installed when tank was moved by train or in road marches.
Installing wider tracks:
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/tiger_tracks.jpg)
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I did find some penetration data on the 37mm gun the M8 uses- even shooting AP rounds the M8 could not penetrate any armor on the Tiger at any range (except for the top armor, which would likely take a bit of work). So it does appear that the M8 is modelled correctly vis a vis the Tiger.
Actually someone posted a while ago a story about an M8 destroying a tiger in real life. Fired a shot from less than 50m at rear of tiger and the tiger caught fire.
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For certain, there is some sort of variable or control that dictates the survivability of a Tiger..
You say a rocket can't kill a Tiger.. I've been killed by a single HVAR rocket from a pony, front armor 45 degree angle.
Yet I've emptied 4 RS-182(?) IL-2 rockets on a Tiger, two of which were direct hits, one from the front and one from the side )there were hit sprites) and the thing wasnt even detracked.
I've seen tigers take 2 (count em) 2 Stuka 1800kg bombs.
Some will argue it matters where you hit the tigers.. but bombs have a blast radius, and one of those bombs were about 3 meters off target. All it did was blow a track.
So.. Pyro? HiTech? What gives?
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I've diabled lots of tigers with the M8. 3 hits, point blank and directly into the rear turret does it every time for me.
I've also killed the turret by running circles around them to keep out of the big gun. It took alor more hits but I occasionally got penetrating side and front hits.
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That m8 that killed the tiger set fire to the fuel which on Tigers was notoriously leaky.
The tiger was well known for being almost impossible to penetrate.You can find stories of 75mm shots bouncing off even within 100 yards.
One quite famous Tiger ace managed to kill an entire convoy of shermans. I cant recall the name but I know when the tank was eventually killed the allies found over 120 shots had hit the tiger and all had failed to penetrate.The tiger didnt become infamous for no reason.Another story tells of how a tiger was ravaging a british tank platoon and was only disabled when a incredibly lucky shot wedged the shell under the gun mount and jammed in there thus making traverse impossible and the crew bailed out.
That being said no armour was impregnable.If you go to the Imperial war museum in london you will see a Jagdpanther with incredibly thick armour and right through the side near the engine compartment there are several holes.They look like someone has burned a red hot poker through it.Amazing when you put your hand in and feel the steel.
The Russians found a simple way to deal with them too and that was a molotov cocktail onto the rear engine compartment, again showing the fuel leakage was an achilles heel for the tigers.They destroyed quite a few this way which led to orders not to use tigers in situations where infantry could get close enough to use them like cities and towns.
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Wittman hazed, God of all Tankers.
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hey all you guys thing is tiger is killable but not that easy, thing is that it is a tank destroyer,assult vehicle, abush weapon and so on. So thier armored in the front not in the back a 20-37 mil. in the back will cripple it. Because i had ounce been shot there aint good and also playin' Close combat:A bridge too far and Close Combat:The Russain Front. So as my philosophie "Onward Soldier." P.S. good hunt'n.:D :eek: :D
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Originally posted by Raven101
So thier armored in the front not in the back a 20-37 mil. in the back will cripple it.
Dream on. Tigers had 80mm armour in their backs too, only lower hull sides were 60mm but even those areas were mostly protected by overlapping roadwheels (eight axles; three pretty strong steelrims per axle).
U.S 37L/52 cannon (2900fps veloc.) could penetrate 78mm from 100meters at 0 degree impact angle so killing a Tiger with "Greyhound" would be almost impossible.
German KwK40 75L/48 (PzIV-G) with APCBC round could penetrate 109mm from 1000m at 0 degr.angle and 123mm from 500meters so PzIV should be able to perforate a Tiger even from front if range is less than 1km and shot is fired straight against frontal armour (100mm at Tiger).
Anyway AH is a flightsim and it's good at that; if you want to play a game which is using more CPU cycles to calculate penetrations, velocities and damages round is producing than whole AH is taking there's always wwiiol. All you need is at least 1,5GHz computer with 768m-1Gb RAM.
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Depends on the the angle. Tiger crews were trained to keep their tank facing the enemy on 45° angles, and that flat out doubles the effective armor strength.
So the 1km figure is for 90° on shots only... but also for the Tiger ;)
In AH however, I see no noticeable effect from turning my tank to the "Mahlzeiten"...
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North Africa, Feb 1943
#2 Troop, 'A' Bty, 72cd A/T Regt
6pdr guns
results: 2 knocked out Tigers shooting from 630 yds to 1000yds.
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Did you guys know that some members of the community (I will not say who, as I haven't got any 'decisive' proof - ie. film), are claiming to easily disable Tigers with Zeros?
(note: It is because since films don't catch some parts of the game - what you have actually experienced in your FE, is not recorded the same in the film)
Apparently, some sort of a bug exists with the Tiger DM, and ppl are claiming it can be exploited - they can disable it by using only the MGs of a Zero. Of course, only that 'group' of people know how, and they certainly will not tell me.
Also, there are other methods of abuse, such as firing multi shots with Tanks, consecutive shots with Cruiser main guns, and turning the turret 180 degrees instantly.. all a part of minor exploits of the system. And likewise, these remain 'trade secret' for some people.
...
There may be more problems than we might think there are.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
some historical fact:
One of, if not, the first Tiger knocked out and captured by the British in Africa was hit with 57mm AT rounds. One can view this Tiger at Bovington.
I've seen this particular Tiger. Very lucky shot indeed. The shell glanced of the maingun barrel and ended up enbedding itself in the turret ring. Crew paniced and routed. The armor was not penetrated.
Some people seem to think that armor made tanks impervious to damage if the round didn't penetrate. That's far from the truth. Tank armor is much more like body armor, protecting vital parts like crew, ammo, engine etc., but just like a soldiers arms, legs, eyes and weapons are not protected by his body armor, neither is the gun, machineguns, sights, periscopes, tracks or running gear protected by tank armor.
Very few of the Tigers destroyed in WWII were destroyed by allied tanks. Aircraft did most of them in, and most were just disabled and abandoned by their crews, usually after destroying the disabled Tiger themselves.
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(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/wwiiol/scans/tigertest.jpg)
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Guys, remember there is a distinct difference when talking RL, and AH. There are things to take into consideration such as lag, and connection speeds. In RL, a fellow didn't have to wait for his enemy's FE to "see" the hits.
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First off, you CAN kill a Tiger with a Greyhound in the game; of course you have to be within ~10 yards of his side armor, and you have to get a rediculous amount of penetrations to do it, but it is possible.
As for the Tiger's ability to soak up penetration hits, you have to remember that even if you get a penetration hit, you may not be doing ANY damage. This basically represents (as far as I can figure) the fact that your shell had enough energy to penetrate the Tiger's armor (thus showing the penetration hit sprite), but it did not have enough energy leftover to do any damage after penetrating, therefore doing no real damage to the crew or the Tiger itself (ie a partial penetration). This holds true when you realize that the further away from the Tiger you are, the more penetration hits it takes to kill that Tiger. However, at close ranges it only takes 1 penetration hit to kill a Tiger. This seems to represent (correctly IMHO) the fact that at closer ranges the shell has enough energy leftover after penetrating the armor to do the real damage to the Tank, namely creating more spalling and throwing itself around in the crew compartment and killing the crew.
A side note: Shooting a tank in the rear hull armor will enable you to get an easier penetration. However, it also seems to stop the penetrator from entering the crew compartment, and thus negates your ability to kill the tank from that aspect. I assume this represents the fact that you are basically shooting the engine (I would have killed to have catastrophic brew-ups modeled :) )
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Originally posted by Staga
Dream on. Tigers had 80mm armour in their backs too, only lower hull sides were 60mm but even those areas were mostly protected by overlapping roadwheels (eight axles; three pretty strong steelrims per axle).
U.S 37L/52 cannon (2900fps veloc.) could penetrate 78mm from 100meters at 0 degree impact angle so killing a Tiger with "Greyhound" would be almost impossible.
Go back and look at the number of perforations on the rear armor of a Tiger; every bolt through the rear armor was a potential fracture point for stress fractures that could allow a round not normally capable of penetrating the armor to achieve damaging effect from spalling the inner surface of the armor. Actually getting the projectile to penetrate is not always the measure of getting damage.
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http://web1.archive.org/web/20010602033500/www.wargamer.org/GvA/index.html
A great site for WW2 tank and gun specs
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/sig/veggie.gif)
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Thanks for pointing it out.