Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Preon1 on April 15, 2003, 10:02:04 AM
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Last week, when asked about the looting going on in Baghdad, Sec Rumsfeld replied that it was an expected thing for a repressed people to do when it has been freed from a repressive government. He then compared it to the fall of the Berlin Wall. It turns out that a lot of Germans are really pissed at this. Maybe my history is wrong, but I think the differences are forgivable:
Iraqis died in a war from an outside aggressor
East Germans died trying to cross the no-man zone
Iraqi resistance left the country to avoid the murder of themselves, their friends, and families.
East Germans weren't allowed to leave so the pressure increased.
The United States applied direct pressure that toppled the Saddam regime.
The United States applied direct pressure to keep West Berlin alive, allowing the East Berlin pressure to increase.
The Germans can be proud that there wasn't a war to liberate them. It's a good thing too, because such a war would have been MUCH more devastating than Operation Iraqi Freedom. But I don't think they have much to be pissed about here.
(attached is a link to the chinadaily that brings up the topic)
Germans dismiss Rumsfeld's Berlin-Baghdad comparison (http://www1.chinadaily.com.cn/news/lf/2003-04-15/112099.html)
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It sounds like there is virtually no comparison. I don't remember much looting either.
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Originally posted by Dowding
It sounds like there is virtually no comparison. I don't remember much looting either.
Right... the buildings in East Germany emptied themselves. :rolleyes:
MiniD
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They were robbing super-markets and private shops, and armed gangs were roaming the streets? Nope, don't remember any of that. But I was only 10 years old.
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No, they were locked in their houses as the Russian soldiers did the looting. I do find your reference to "supermarkets" quite funny.
Don't look blindly at history in hopes of proving a point dowding.
MiniD
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the germans brought the walls down themselves. but we did economically strangled the USSR. Plus most western societys will not fire on unarmed civilians and the people of germany knew that. then in iraq ,of course if you look at the air shots of the square that statue was brought down in, for a city of 5million, a couple hundred people takeing down a statue didnt look like the massive amounts of people takeing down the wall. It seems most people just stayed in their homes. Im sure they are glad to be rid of him, but i think most iraqis are cowards. except the kurds in the north who have been fighting for a damn long time.
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There were significant differences of course. The government and police force in East Germany didn't cease to exist like they have in Iraq (for a short period).
The similarity is in the end of fear and repression for both peoples. No surprise the Germans have so soon forgotten the sacrifce made by Americans to make it possible. If we did it only to gain respect and admiration we woulda stopped a long time ago.
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Aaagh, so the Russians, an occupying force for all intents and purposes, did the looting before withdrawing.
Compare that with Iraq, where a people recently liberated from a dictator looted their own hospitals, private houses and shops.
How many East German hospitals were stripped of equipment and supplies? How many East German doctors had to walk the corridors with stethoscope and AK-47 in hand?
Enlighten me, please.
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what did america sacrifice in driving the USSR into economic crap house faster then it naturally would have? The millions of jobs our defence contractors gave out? or was it the massive government spending?
of course there were some spys caught and i guess those are the few that did something that was actually dangerous.
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Originally posted by Dowding
It sounds like there is virtually no comparison. I don't remember much looting either.
\
America screwed the pooch on the looting of the museums.
I hope the Iraqis realize how important that stuff is to thier/our cultures and beginnings. America/Iraq should offer
moneys/barter to buy these things back from the people and
let them know there will be no retributions for the return of stuff.
Maybe they can get back some of these priceless treasures
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LOL! Wait dowding...
Are you refering to the looting that occured when the East Germans were "liberated"?
LOL! Sorry, I thought you were refering to when they were occupied.
Of course, there was nothing left to loot because anything of real value had been removed from the country entirely.
I wonder what would have happened if, when the Russians pulled out, they'd left palaces and offices lavishly decorated and massively stocked with supplies. Actually, I don't wonder... I know.
MiniD
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Keep laughing. I guess it helps you avoid answering the questions I posed.
Forget about the palaces and offices. What about the hospitals? What about the private homes and shops? Were they looted in East Germany?
Or will we just have to conclude that the fall of the Soviet East Germany was really nothing like the fall of Baghdad...
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Originally posted by Dowding
and armed gangs were roaming the streets? Nope, don't remember
I doubt there are many iraqis that dont carry a gun or know where they can get thier hand on one real fastlike.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
what did america sacrifice in driving the USSR into economic crap house faster then it naturally would have? The millions of jobs our defence contractors gave out? or was it the massive government spending?
of course there were some spys caught and i guess those are the few that did something that was actually dangerous.
How about the hundreds of thousands of US troops that lived much of their lives away from their families in defense of Europe. Ready to give even their lives if necessary.
Maybe you don't consider this sacrifice. Do you even have a clue what that word means?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Or will we just have to conclude that the fall of the Soviet East Germany was really nothing like the fall of Baghdad...
Except it had the exact same effect on the populace. Freedom.
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what has looting got to do with comparing the removal of one oppressive regime to that of another?
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no i dont consider it a sacrifice, oh no how terrible. I have to live a upper middle class lifestyle in another country for a bit. give me a break, they got paid well for it. it was their jobs. i consider a sacrifice something that is a great personal loss. Like the guys in normandy or the grunts in vietnam. they sacrificed, dont try to compare the two. you could say " how fast did the germans forget about all the americans that were slightly discomferted for a bit to protect their country from an enemy that wouldnt have invaded anyways"
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
no i dont consider it a sacrifice, oh no how terrible. I have to live a upper middle class lifestyle in another country for a bit. give me a break, they got paid well for it. it was there jobs. i consider a sacrifice something that is a great personal loss. Like the guys in normandy or the grunts in vietnam. they sacrificed, dont try to compare the two. you could say " how fast did the germans forget about all the americans that were slightly discomferted for a bit to protect their country from an enemy that wouldnt have invaded anyways"
You have obviously never served in the military. You do fine when you talk about topics you are informed on. You should stick to that.
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explain to me how servering in the military was such a horrible sacrifice. We have a volunteer army, you are not sacrificeing anything when you know your going to have to travel for your job. you dont hear a buisness man saying what a great sacrifice he made for his country because he had to work in the tokyo office for 6 years.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
explain to me how servering in the military was such a horrible sacrifice. We have a volunteer army, you are not sacrificeing anything when you know your going to have to travel for your job. you dont hear a buisness man saying what a great sacrifice he made for his country because he had to work in the tokyo office for 6 years.
Being a volunteer military doesn't make it any less of a sacrifice. Would you say the soldiers killed in Iraq haven't made a sacrifice, since they volunteered, knowing they would go to battle?
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Except it had the exact same effect on the populace. Freedom.
I agree there. But any other comparisons are stretching it.
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I'm done wasting my time on you Frog. You wanna toe that narrow minded leftist line, thinking you owe no one anything, you go right ahead. I'll do my best to ignore your ignorant and arrogant rants.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
you dont hear a buisness man saying what a great sacrifice he made for his country because he had to work in the tokyo office for 6 years.
How many civilians do you see taking long jobs overseas while leaving the family back home? How many make sure that their will and other affairs are in order before they leave?
People who enlist in the military do so on a voluntary basis, yes. But just because they volunteer makes it no less a sacrifice.
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they did make a sacrifice, i was trying to point out being stationed in another country isnt a sacrifice when its part of their job. plenty of civilians do it and do not call it a sacrifice, like akiron pointed out. the topic im whineing about is that we really didnt sacrifice anything in destroying the USSR's economy. It was already falling apart in the 70's, and if anything we benefited greatly from it.
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Originally posted by Mini D
LOL! Wait dowding...
Are you refering to the looting that occured when the East Germans were "liberated"?
LOL! Sorry, I thought you were refering to when they were occupied.
Of course, there was nothing left to loot because anything of real value had been removed from the country entirely.
I wonder what would have happened if, when the Russians pulled out, they'd left palaces and offices lavishly decorated and massively stocked with supplies. Actually, I don't wonder... I know.
MiniD
Oh, again, evil, evil Russians...
Do you know when the "group of troops" withdrew from Germany?
Do you know what Soviet Army left in the countries it left, not only Warsaw Treaty members, but former Soviet Republics? Also you can try to find out who insised on destruction of Soviet Army infrastructure after it left Pribaltika ("Baltic countries").
Very sad to see how even the modern history is rewritten.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Oh, again, evil, evil Russians...
Do you know when the "group of troops" withdrew from Germany?
Do you know what Soviet Army left in the countries it left, not only Warsaw Treaty members, but former Soviet Republics? Also you can try to find out who insised on destruction of Soviet Army infrastructure after it left Pribaltika ("Baltic countries").
Very sad to see how even the modern history is rewritten.
modern history is rewritten every time pravda "goes to press"
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Originally posted by Boroda
Very sad to see how even the modern history is rewritten.
Well quit trying to re-write it then!
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
they did make a sacrifice, i was trying to point out being stationed in another country isnt a sacrifice when its part of their job. plenty of civilians do it and do not call it a sacrifice, like akiron pointed out. the topic im whineing about is that we really didnt sacrifice anything in destroying the USSR's economy. It was already falling apart in the 70's, and if anything we benefited greatly from it.
Well, I just can't help myself. Are you really so blind as to think that Berlin, and probably all of Germany as well, wouldn't have been gobbled up by the Soviets if not for American troops?
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the soviets just ran the puppet governments of east germany, i remember driving through east germany when i was about 12 and seeing some of their army. uniforms didnt fit, crappy equipment didnt really look like an army, hell the troops look half starved and sure as hell didnt want to be there. They were germans and because they didnt follow their imorale orders to shoot the people tearing down the walls the reunification was allowed to procede.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I agree there. But any other comparisons are stretching it.
Perhaps I should quote the article:
Rumsfeld had said last week that the television images of Iraqis celebrating as US soldiers helped pull down giant statues of Saddam in Baghdad reminded him of the joyous scenes of Berliners jumping onto the Wall that locked them out of the West.
"The scenes of free Iraqis celebrating...tearing down the statues of Saddam Hussein in the centre of Baghdad are breathtaking," Rumsfeld said. "Watching them I cannot help but think of the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Iron Curtain."
Unfortunately, nobody has come up with sources relating the details of the events of 9 Nov. I'll agree that it was a peaceful day. However, the first I heard of Doctors carrying AK-47s was from Dowding (no offense, but I'm not going to rely on that either).
Still, you have two peoples, liberated from a repressive regime. There was struggle beforehand and celebration afterwards. I think a comparison has plenty of merit.
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Originally posted by AKIron
How about the hundreds of thousands of US troops that lived much of their lives away from their families in defense of Europe. Ready to give even their lives if necessary.
Maybe you don't consider this sacrifice. Do you even have a clue what that word means?
Did US of A remove it's troops from Europe after Evil Russians removed theirs?
Can you tell me who's the enemy they oppose now? Russia maybe? Just tell it plain and straight.
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Modern Russia is like a great-grandfather.
Sitting in diapers, talking about "the good old days".
Everything he remembers, though, is oddly different than everyone else remembers it.
He yells at you when you smack your little brother, and threatens to "spank you", but you know he's too weak to get out of his chair.
You listen to him politely, because you know he was once a great man.
Eventually, he becomes annoying so you stick him in an old folks home.
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i believe that it would have right after world war 2 and possibly into the late 50's, but after that once germany and nato were established and strong i seriously doubt they would have tried anything. The soviets knew their only way of staying in power was to proceed with a nuclear arms race. They would never have been able to afford a conventional war that lasted longer then 2 months. I mean look at the problems they had in afghanistan, the reports on how under supplied their troops were.
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Hehe, great analogy Martlett.
I agree Boroda, time to bring our troops home.
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Originally posted by Martlet
modern history is rewritten every time pravda "goes to press"
I asked some questions, to understand if ManyD knows the answers to them.
I now adress them to you.
Pravda is no longer an official newspaper since 1991. Now what's called "Pravda" is a stupid commie leaflet.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Aaagh, so the Russians, an occupying force for all intents and purposes, did the looting before withdrawing.
Compare that with Iraq, where a people recently liberated from a dictator looted their own hospitals, private houses and shops.
How many East German hospitals were stripped of equipment and supplies? How many East German doctors had to walk the corridors with stethoscope and AK-47 in hand?
Enlighten me, please.
Ah.. you posted this as I was typing my reply. I didn't see it.
Russians didn't do the looting before withdrawing, they did it when occupying several years before. The country was too broke to stay occupied. Iraq was never broke. There were those that had, and those that didn't.
Also, East Germany was not a contrast in lifestiles with lavishness sitting beside extreme poverty.
nor was Russia's withdrawl/release of East Germany unforseen. There was a large amount of preperation before hand... as well as a sense of reunion with a West Germany more than willing to help out (and realize new buisness potential).
The looting you like to point to right now is very common when a dictator is ousted. Russia, for all of its misgivings, was never presented the same situation. Of course, the looting is usually done by the people occupying the country... but I guess that's easy for you to dismiss.
The comparison to the Berlin wall being taken down is a bad one... that is all there is to it. German's shouldn't take offense to it becuase it was a stupid comparison to make.
Just as "looting then and now" comparisons are also pretty stupid.
The coalition forces were somewhat unprepared for the looting that occured in Baghdad. At some points, they actually encouraged it (even a thread here giving kudos to the brits). So be it.... it is being resolved.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Martlet
Modern Russia is like a great-grandfather.
Sitting in diapers, talking about "the good old days".
Everything he remembers, though, is oddly different than everyone else remembers it.
He yells at you when you smack your little brother, and threatens to "spank you", but you know he's too weak to get out of his chair.
You listen to him politely, because you know he was once a great man.
Eventually, he becomes annoying so you stick him in an old folks home.
Oh man! Thats quotable material! LOLOLOLOL!
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Originally posted by Boroda
I asked some questions, to understand if ManyD knows the answers to them.
I now adress them to you.
Pravda is no longer an official newspaper since 1991. Now what's called "Pravda" is a stupid commie leaflet.
ahhh, how convenient.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Modern Russia is like a great-grandfather.
Sitting in diapers, talking about "the good old days".
Everything he remembers, though, is oddly different than everyone else remembers it.
He yells at you when you smack your little brother, and threatens to "spank you", but you know he's too weak to get out of his chair.
You listen to him politely, because you know he was once a great man.
Eventually, he becomes annoying so you stick him in an old folks home.
At least we have some means to stop "the land of free" from invading us, despite of the great effort to "disarm" us. Very nice when international gangster tries to persuade us to scrap our weapons, at the same time "storing" their own.
Noone threatens you, it's just your paranoic hysteria fed by your "independant media".
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Originally posted by Boroda
At least we have some means to stop "the land of free" from invading us, despite of the great effort to "disarm" us. Very nice when international gangster tries to persuade us to scrap our weapons, at the same time "storing" their own.
Noone threatens you, it's just your paranoic hysteria fed by your "independant media".
HA!
You are safe because of the very protection we provide. We could have our armies eating borcht in Moscow any day we chose to, and there isn't crap Russia could do about it.
Fortunately for you, that isn't our style.
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Originally posted by Boroda
At least we have some means to stop "the land of free" from invading us, despite of the great effort to "disarm" us. Very nice when international gangster tries to persuade us to scrap our weapons, at the same time "storing" their own.
Noone threatens you, it's just your paranoic hysteria fed by your "independant media".
Disarm you? Nah.... disarm those you're selling the weapons to. It must be our biased media that airbrushes AK-47s and T-72 tanks and soviet missile systems into everything. What a completely eronious picture they paint.
BTW... The irony of a Russian speaking of "occupation" is duly noted.
MiniD
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Why would US invade Russia? Caviar? Ohhh Pahleez...
:D
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damn derailers.
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Martlet, don't tease poor ole grandpa. ;)
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Originally posted by Dowding
I agree there. But any other comparisons are stretching it.
well another comparison would be the dancing in the streets.
Jubilation, joy.
I think that was rummys point...
Hes just a hick too ya know ;->
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Originally posted by Mini D
Ah.. you posted this as I was typing my reply. I didn't see it.
Russians didn't do the looting before withdrawing, they did it when occupying several years before. The country was too broke to stay occupied. Iraq was never broke. There were those that had, and those that didn't.
Also, East Germany was not a contrast in lifestiles with lavishness sitting beside extreme poverty.
nor was Russia's withdrawl/release of East Germany unforseen. There was a large amount of preperation before hand... as well as a sense of reunion with a West Germany more than willing to help out (and realize new buisness potential).
The looting you like to point to right now is very common when a dictator is ousted. Russia, for all of its misgivings, was never presented the same situation. Of course, the looting is usually done by the people occupying the country... but I guess that's easy for you to dismiss.
The comparison to the Berlin wall being taken down is a bad one... that is all there is to it. German's shouldn't take offense to it becuase it was a stupid comparison to make.
Just as "looting then and now" comparisons are also pretty stupid.
The coalition forces were somewhat unprepared for the looting that occured in Baghdad. At some points, they actually encouraged it (even a thread here giving kudos to the brits). So be it.... it is being resolved.
MiniD
Thank you for a nice answer.
The case is that Russian Army withdrew from Germany in 1993. Until then Soviet/Russian troops remained neutral. All the ground installations, buildings and infrastructure were left intact and passed to Germany/NATO.
As for the lootings in Iraq - It's stupid to blame the intervents. Their intentions didn't include the complete occupational administration. It's pretty obvious. Unlike, for example, anti-terrorist operation in Chechnya they simply don't need it, total control and restoring law and order isn't their aim. Saddam is gone, oil is under control - everything else should be off the list.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
what did america sacrifice in driving the USSR into economic crap house faster then it naturally would have? The millions of jobs our defence contractors gave out? or was it the massive government spending?
of course there were some spys caught and i guess those are the few that did something that was actually dangerous.
Forgive the tone of my reply, but you have struck a nerve with this comment, Frogm4n. I find the assertion that no sacrifice was made by America or her NATO allies in defeating communism in the Cold War both amazing and insulting! Speaking purely in economic terms, where do you think the billions spent on the defense of North America and Europe came from? Much came from the European NATO partners, but an appreciable percentage came from…me; a United States taxpayer and 20-year vet. It is staggering to imagine what might have been done with the trillions of dollars spent just maintaining the defense of Europe, but that’s only the cold, hard monetary side of the equation.
However, to couch this purely in economic terms would be a dishonor to untold millions who served on active duty during that titanic struggle that was the Cold War. No, the much more was sacrificed than mere dollars, pounds, and marks. Suffering and sacrifice doesn’t just involve loss of life, though that certainly occurred regularly throughout the Cold War. And I refer not just about, or even primarily about, spies. Thousands of soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines lost their lives during the 40-plus years of the Cold War. They died in training accidents, during naval vessel collisions between USSR and NATO vessels, or simply lost their lives at the hands of the elements or chance; all died maintaining a thankless vigils in God-forsaken areas all over the globe.
But I spoke of other sacrifice as well, sacrifice that stops short of death, but is nonetheless real and measurable. Ever pull a yearlong remote tour above the Arctic Circle, or spent years away from everything familiar and dear to you? Ever bivouac in barren desert wastelands, or stare through barbed wire across a no-man’s land at a hostile army? Do you know what it’s like to stand on the ice-encrusted bridge of your ship, tossed about the waters of the Barrent Straights, and wonder if you’d be home in time to see your child born (and wondering if your wife would get tired of waiting and leave you before your six-month long deployment ends)? Ever sit a 24-hour watch, deep in the bowels of the earth, and wonder if the world you knew when you rode the elevator down to the missile launch control capsule would still exist when at last your shift was ended?
What know you of the sacrifice made by others, so that democracy and freedom would not fade from this earth? Little, I should think.
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Originally posted by Boroda
At least we have some means to stop "the land of free" from invading us, despite of the great effort to "disarm" us. Very nice when international gangster tries to persuade us to scrap our weapons, at the same time "storing" their own.
We used a different weapon on you guys. Your free now, toodle along...
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Actually, we no longer care if Russia keeps their weapons. We've seen how affective they are.
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Originally posted by Martlet
HA!
You are safe because of the very protection we provide. We could have our armies eating borcht in Moscow any day we chose to, and there isn't crap Russia could do about it.
Fortunately for you, that isn't our style.
10 minutes after the first invader will step on our land - it will result in a massive ICBM launch.
It's an official doctrine. We can't afford a massive convenient war with NATO, so the strategic nuclear forces are our main weapon.
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Well said Sabre!
USArmy Ret. here. '75-'95.
:D
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Originally posted by Boroda
10 minutes after the first invader will step on our land - it will result in a massive ICBM launch.
It's an official doctrine. We can't afford a massive convenient war with NATO, so the strategic nuclear forces are our main weapon.
Not a problem. We've seen how well your weapon's work. Those ICBM's will make it to the Pacific, if you're lucky.
Like I said, there wouldn't be crap you could do about it.
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our government would have had those training accidents anyways. Very minor sacrifice's were made during the cold war by the US overall, and thats why it was such a great victory. It was an economic battle that we benifited greatly from dont fool yourself. Defence contractors made billions off of it and cant wait for another.
And im glad they served on active duty to fight off an enemy that never posed a conventional warfare threat.
Your right about one thing, the civilians of the countrys of NATO and the warsaw pact sacrificed the greatest during the coldwar by paying their tax's so their governments could make countless nuclear weopons and armys that should never have been built.
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Originally posted by AWMac
Why would US invade Russia? Caviar? Ohhh Pahleez...
:D
Then why do you build airbases and long-range radar stations in Estonia? SPb is inside the effective range of NATO tactical aviation now. North-Western Russia airspace can be monitored by NATO radars. Should we understand it as an act of friendship? After mr. Rumsfeld's sentences about using military force against us if we'll try to eliminate terrorists hiding in Georgia, and open military support to a country that harbours terrorists - I doubt it.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Did US of A remove it's troops from Europe after Evil Russians removed theirs?
LOL! You've got to be kidding me... right? Do you see our troops in Europe as being occupying forces? Have they been used in a single police action in Europe even once? Really boroda... try to come up with a single instance. Any forces left over there are with something we in the west call "permission" from the existing soveregn "government". To be honest, I dunno if we'll ever really be out of Europe because I don't know that Europe as a whole will ever completely trust Germany or Russia in the near future.Can you tell me who's the enemy they oppose now? Russia maybe? Just tell it plain and straight.
They have nobody to oppose now, since Russia has shrivelled into third world status. Of course, as soon as that happens, they lose the "common enemy" mentality and return back to the behavior that made Europe a wonderland in the 20th century. The nationalism will start creeping back to pre-ww1 levels shortly. America will be hated by the Germans and French. Belgium will just want to be left alone. Austria will insist they are the most genetically pure. Northwestern Europe will continue to pump out beatifull blond females and dare you to brave the frozen countryside to come and get them.
America did not create the hatred found in Europe by occupying it. Its always been there. Hatred for anyone more than 50 miles from where you live. Even moreso for lands more than 1000 miles away.
The British are the only Europeans to be above this at the time. I don't call they lackies or allies. I simply view them as a country that is confident enough not to be affected by the insecurities of nationalism. Sure there is patriotism, but the nationalistic mentality is not the predominant view.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Boroda
Then why do you build airbases and long-range radar stations in Estonia? SPb is inside the effective range of NATO tactical aviation now. North-Western Russia airspace can be monitored by NATO radars. Should we understand it as an act of friendship? After mr. Rumsfeld's sentences about using military force against us if we'll try to eliminate terrorists hiding in Georgia, and open military support to a country that harbours terrorists - I doubt it.
understand it however you want.
We could care less.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Not a problem. We've seen how well your weapon's work. Those ICBM's will make it to the Pacific, if you're lucky.
Like I said, there wouldn't be crap you could do about it.
C'mon, then try it.
Then don't say that I didn't warn you.
Surely your "free media" will not show you a Russian ICBM launched at Central Russia and hitting a 6m circle painted on the ground at Kamchatka.
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LOL It's the aircraft that you can't see Broda that should make you lie awake in bed. :eek:
:D
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Originally posted by Boroda
C'mon, then try it.
Then don't say that I didn't warn you.
Surely your "free media" will not show you a Russian ICBM launched at Central Russia and hitting a 6m circle painted on the ground at Kamchatka.
Like I ALSO said, that's not our style.
Quit rattling your sabre. I agree, USSR was a proud and powerful nation.
Russia is a 3rd world dung heap. Their military sucks. Their equipment sucks. They can't even beat the Chechs.
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MiniD, do you really think that US forces are in Europe only for charity?... :rolleyes:
Americans are practical people. I doubt they act out of altruistic motivations in this case.
In fact I wish our "Kremlin dreamers" could use 10% of American practicism. :(
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Originally posted by Martlet
Like I ALSO said, that's not our style.
Quit rattling your sabre. I agree, USSR was a proud and powerful nation.
Russia is a 3rd world dung heap. Their military sucks. Their equipment sucks. They can't even beat the Chechs.
Surely, with "the land of free" helping Chechens (they are Chechens, and the province is called Chechnya, try to remember it) and protecting their shelters it's hard to find all the mercenaries left there. Remember, Russia doesn't want it's oil companies to suck Chechen oil and "liberate' them. We just want to stop terrorism, murders, robberies, kidnapping and slavery.
I don't care what you call us, we can be the fourth-world backwards barbarians, but at least we don't bomb independant countries to support drug-dealing gangsters. It is not OUR style.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I don't care what you call us, we can be the fourth-world backwards barbarians, but at least we don't bomb independant countries to support drug-dealing gangsters. It is not OUR style.
Nope, you just bomb "Chechen" villages and towns. You have no problem killing women and children, as long as you think noone is looking.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Nope, you just bomb "Chechen" villages and towns. You have no problem killing women and children, as long as you think noone is looking.
Numbers and facts please.
2500 Chechen civilians were killed or are missing after 2 campains.
About the same number as Yugoslavs "pacified" by your glorious aerial bandits in 1999 in a matter of weeks.
I just wonder how many of Chechen civilians were the victims of Evil Russians who eat little children for breakfast. Surely, terrorists cutting fingers from hostages and cutting throats of Russian civilians for fun can not be blamed.
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Originally posted by Boroda
MiniD, do you really think that US forces are in Europe only for charity?... :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: all you want boroda. Rhetorical questions are not going to make you look any less foolish on this one. You used the term "occupying". Please, find a single country in Europe that uses that term to describe our forces over there. And please, once again, provide me with ONE SINGLE POLICE ACTION INVOLVING THE US MILITARY IN ANY SOVEREIGN NATION IN WESTERN EUROPE. Europe is not an American province.Americans are practical people. I doubt they act out of altruistic motivations in this case.
In fact I wish our "Kremlin dreamers" could use 10% of American practicism. :(
We all do.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Boroda
About the same number as Yugoslavs "pacified" by your glorious aerial bandits in 1999 in a matter of weeks.
Damn boroda... this is the best you can do? I'm sorry that the mean ol U.S. got involved with the good ol Eastern European tradition of genocide. My God... look at all the innocent casualties that resulted from us stopping one population from whiping out another. Oh my... the horror.
If only we'd let things be like Russia, we could have just patiently let things work themselves out. Eventually, one side would have completely killed off the other and the situation would have subsided.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Mini D
:rolleyes: all you want boroda. Rhetorical questions are not going to make you look any less foolish on this one. You used the term "occupying". Please, find a single country in Europe that uses that term to describe our forces over there. And please, once again, provide me with ONE SINGLE POLICE ACTION INVOLVING THE US MILITARY IN ANY SOVEREIGN NATION IN WESTERN EUROPE. Europe is not an American province. MiniD
I didn't use the term "occupant" towards American forces in Europe. "Occupation" is a term clearly defined in International laws.
I can use this term only if you say that Soviet Army occupied Europe, because your understanding of it means that American forces fall under it too. Hmm. I have hard time explaining what I mean. ;)
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(http://death.innomi.com/uploads/xenophorm-spider.jpg)
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http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/russchech/
http://www.kafkas.org.tr/english/Ajans/ekim%202001/26.10.2001%20Russia%20kills%20civilian%20population.htm
http://www.amina.com/war/brunostevens.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/chechnya991127.html
http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000289.php
etc etc.
I also threw the last one in there, because I thought it was interesting that you'd kill your own people as well.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Damn boroda... this is the best you can do? I'm sorry that the mean ol U.S. got involved with the good ol Eastern European tradition of genocide. My God... look at all the innocent casualties that resulted from us stopping one population from whiping out another. Oh my... the horror.
If only we'd let things be like Russia, we could have just patiently let things work themselves out. Eventually, one side would have completely killed off the other and the situation would have subsided.
MiniD
The number of victims of Kosovo "conflict" has reached 300 from both sides when NATO started an agression killing 10 times more and turning a province of an independant state into a terrorist anclave.
Can you tell me how many Serbs are left in Kosovo now?
JFYI: in Autumn 1998 US Senate declared KLA a terrorist organisation. Less then half-year later US starts an operation to help it fight Yuoslavian police forces.
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Originally posted by Martlet
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/russchech/
http://www.kafkas.org.tr/english/Ajans/ekim%202001/26.10.2001%20Russia%20kills%20civilian%20population.htm
http://www.amina.com/war/brunostevens.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/chechnya991127.html
http://www.warblogging.com/archives/000289.php
etc etc.
I also threw the last one in there, because I thought it was interesting that you'd kill your own people as well.
Nice job collecting terrorist propaganda.
Martlet, unfortunately you have chosen the wrong side in a "war against terrorism".
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Originally posted by Boroda
Nice job collecting terrorist propaganda.
Martlet, unfortunately you have chosen the wrong side in a "war against terrorism".
Since when is ABC "terrorist propaganda"?
AND
Any side opposing the Russian's is bound to win.
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This is something that never changes... saying goodbye to your
loved ones and not seeing them for six months or a year.
Folks missing the birth of their child, or their child's first words...
baseball games, recitals, etc. That's a pretty big sacrifice to me.
Sabre, good post.
mauser
Originally posted by Sabre
...
But I spoke of other sacrifice as well, sacrifice that stops short of death, but is nonetheless real and measurable. Ever pull a yearlong remote tour above the Arctic Circle, or spent years away from everything familiar and dear to you? Ever bivouac in barren desert wastelands, or stare through barbed wire across a no-man’s land at a hostile army? Do you know what it’s like to stand on the ice-encrusted bridge of your ship, tossed about the waters of the Barrent Straights, and wonder if you’d be home in time to see your child born (and wondering if your wife would get tired of waiting and leave you before your six-month long deployment ends)? Ever sit a 24-hour watch, deep in the bowels of the earth, and wonder if the world you knew when you rode the elevator down to the missile launch control capsule would still exist when at last your shift was ended?
What know you of the sacrifice made by others, so that democracy and freedom would not fade from this earth? Little, I should think.
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damn hijackers...
oh well. Nice post Sabre
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you guys quick picking on poor Boroda... he's frightened enough already.
let him watch his own "comfort" propoganda if it makes him feel safer. What do we care?
we sure as hell don't give a crap about Russia, or it's lands, or it's (ahem) "riches"....
LOL he still thinks America is a country full of Cowboys from Hollywood, or we're all Evil and practice the occult and plan on eating his children when we take over the world.
I'd be willing to be he still belives Iraq's minister of dis-information was telling the truth
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Originally posted by Boroda
I didn't use the term "occupant" towards American forces in Europe. "Occupation" is a term clearly defined in International laws.
LOL!
OK.. you used the term "invade" in defense of your country and our military. Tell me how there can be invasion without occupation boroda.
Then... go back to hiding behind technicalities. Act as if the governments of Eastern Europe were not puppet governments held in place by the threat of military response.I can use this term only if you say that Soviet Army occupied Europe, because your understanding of it means that American forces fall under it too. Hmm. I have hard time explaining what I mean. ;)
No... you can't. American presence in Europe and Soviet presence in Eastern Europe are in no way the same thing. Not even remotely Boroda. The fact that you even try to draw similarities is simply ludicrous.
Let's put it this way...
How many governments in Europe completely changed when American forces were pulled out of their country? Please, find one. We do not have troops in every European nation. We do not have sovereign rights in any European nation. Surely you can see the difference boroda. You can't be that obtuse.
MiniD
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eh
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Originally posted by Mini D
LOL!
OK.. you used the term "invade" in defense of your country and our military. Tell me how there can be invasion without occupation boroda.
Please show me where in this thread I said that US troops occupy Europe.
Originally posted by Mini D
Then... go back to hiding behind technicalities. Act as if the governments of Eastern Europe were not puppet governments held in place by the threat of military response. No... you can't. American presence in Europe and Soviet presence in Eastern Europe are in no way the same thing. Not even remotely Boroda. The fact that you even try to draw similarities is simply ludicrous.
They were in no way the same thing. Finally USSR/Russia withdrew troops from Europe, and US never did so. USSR wasn't the first to start "free democratic elections" with "democratic" candidates supported by occupation troops in Soviet occupation zones in Europe and Far East.
Originally posted by Mini D
Let's put it this way...
How many governments in Europe completely changed when American forces were pulled out of their country? Please, find one. We do not have troops in every European nation. We do not have sovereign rights in any European nation. Surely you can see the difference boroda. You can't be that obtuse.
MiniD
American forces were pulled out of any country in Europe?!
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Ah boroda. You're ignorance abounds. Do you even have any idea what countries the U.S. does and doesn't have troops in? Or any idea what countries the U.S. has removed all of its forces from? I mean really. You aren't just spewing rhetoric again are you?
And "Pupet government" aplies in spades to the soviet era Eastern European governments boroda. Poland was the first country to finally break from the party line mindset... and it wasn't Russian presence that helped that occur.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
explain to me how servering in the military was such a horrible sacrifice. We have a volunteer army, you are not sacrificeing anything when you know your going to have to travel for your job. you dont hear a buisness man saying what a great sacrifice he made for his country because he had to work in the tokyo office for 6 years.
WOW that's pretty offensive to this former cold warrior.
I didn't sacrifice anything? I lived an "upper middle class life" while overseas?
You sir haven't a clue what you are talking about. If you think working on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, at night like I did is the same thing as working in an office in Tokyo...WOW.
If you think the living conditions aboard ship are "upper middle class"...WOW again.
I've had the misfortune of watching men die for their country. I've lost aircrew that I greatly respected. Tell me again how these people, and their loved ones didn't sacrife anything?
If you think the cold war was bloodless or a county club, you are sadly mistaken.
-Smut
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Originally posted by Mini D
Ah boroda. You're ignorance abounds. Do you even have any idea what countries the U.S. does and doesn't have troops in? Or any idea what countries the U.S. has removed all of its forces from? I mean really. You aren't just spewing rhetoric again are you?
And "Pupet government" aplies in spades to the soviet era Eastern European governments boroda. Poland was the first country to finally break from the party line mindset... and it wasn't Russian presence that helped that occur.
MiniD
You fail to name European countries where US troops were withdrawn, so ask me? Even fail to name France?...
Now please tell me any country where political regime changed when the US troops were there, remaining neutral. And compare it to the Soviet/Russian list.
The discussion is pointless. We lost the economical and propaganda warfare (strange that we could compete at all, given the state of affairs after WWII), so all the lies about my country automaticaly became true in the eyes of an average american.
I wonder how long will it take to declare that USSR was an ally of nazi Germany?...
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I'd like to see the World from Boroda's point of view but I just can't seem to get my head that far up my arse. :rolleyes:
:D
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Originally posted by Boroda
I wonder how long will it take to declare that USSR was an ally of nazi Germany?...
I dunno, let's have the Poles answer that one.
And now a questionof my own - Who trained the Luftwaffe prior to ww2?
-Smut
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did his game start with a C and end in a burg?
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Your hero, Frogm4n?
Smut, he doesn't understand. He can't. His statements are a kin to saying that Japanese Americans interned during WWII were at best "inconvenienced." After all, they got free room and board too, and lived in a private, gated community will lavish ammenities. No sacrifice there, eh?
As I said, truly amazing.
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Boroda... you're the one claiming the presence of U.S. forces in Europe. The ball's in your court. I can think of 4 European countries where the U.S. maintains bases. That leaves a whole lot where we have no presence at all. I can also think of bases closed in 3 other countries for various reasons including a request by the host nation. The main point being that we did not dictate our presence in those nations. This is the main difference between the Soviet occupation and our presence.
So... show all these forces you claim the U.S. has still left over there. Get the list over 4 countries if you can.
MiniD
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(let me try to compare Berlin and Baghdad)
Berlin: People were happy, BUT Germany is stagnating (economically) because of reconstruction in the east and most people want to leave the "Fatherland" to go to USA.
Baghdad: People in Baghdad were happy too but arabs in Palestine and Egypt are angry and frustrated because they were expecting suicide attacks when US marches through baghdad. The citizens of Iraq were obedient and they dont commit crimes like here in USA when Saddam was still in power.
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Originally posted by Smut
I dunno, let's have the Poles answer that one.
And now a questionof my own - Who trained the Luftwaffe prior to ww2?
-Smut
So it already began.
Very nice.
Too bored to answer this crap again.
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I don't think they can be compared. If I am correct, Germany invaded Russia. Russia wins the war and Germany becomes theirs. If you are a believer that Isreal should keep it's conquered land,then maybe you believe Berlin belongs to Russia? I guess it's just what your individual opinion is.
Iraq was ruled by it's own citizen.
The people of Germany were caught in a cold war between to superpowers.
Hopefully, the results will be similar, a unified country.
BTW, a big to the Berlin Airlift. If not for that there would have been no wall to tear down.
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH GIT THAT DING DONGS AWAY FROM MEH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
...........(cold war) was an economic battle (between the socialist system and the capitalist system) that we benifited greatly from dont fool yourself.
you're right, cold war is also a political battle between the communist system and the democratic system and
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Originally posted by Martlet
Not a problem. We've seen how well your weapon's work (soviet weapons). Those ICBM's will make it to the Pacific, if you're lucky.
Like I said, there wouldn't be crap you could do about it.
LOL the Soviet ICBMs dont have to cross the Pacific Ocean because they could just launch their ICBM based from Siberia (an SS-18 inferno for example with 20 warheads inside) and just cross through North Pole (where Santa lives) and hit all targets in USA.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
LOL the Soviet ICBMs dont have to cross the Pacific Ocean because they could just launch their ICBM from Siberia (an SS-18 inferno for example with 20 warheads inside) and just cross through North Pole (where Santa lives) and hit all targets in USA.
In your dreams. If they perform as well as everything else russia makes, and we can assume they will, then they'll never leave Siberia.
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Originally posted by Martlet
In your dreams. If they perform as well as everything else russia makes, and we can assume they will, then they'll never leave Siberia.
HERE ARE THE FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These are the places where Soviet ICBMs are based
(http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/facility/icbm/icbm_1.gif)
DO YOU SEE THE SS-17 SPANKER (UR-100MR) BASED IN YEDROVO SIBERIA??? That SS-17 has a range of 4062 miles and it can hit all parts of USA.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
HERE ARE THE FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
These are the places where Soviet ICBMs are based
DO YOU SEE THE SS-17 SPANKER (UR-100MR) BASED IN YEDROVO SIBERIA??? That SS-17 has a range of 4062 miles and it can hit all parts of USA.
not if it's Made in Russia, it can't.
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Originally posted by Boroda
C'mon, then try it.
Then don't say that I didn't warn you.
Cant yall 2 dorks just fight it out and not involve the rest of the free world in a nuclear exchange?
Cant we all just get along?
:D
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No more web cam for you Ike, or if it really is Froggie, no more for him. There's another thread for self pics.
Here's hoping they ban one or both of you guys.
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Originally posted by AKIron
No more web cam for you Ike, or if it really is Froggie, no more for him. There's another thread for self pics.
Here's hoping they ban one or both of you guys.
actually, they didn't post that picture.
Frogman was linking something from somethingawful.com, rather than hosting the image himself. somethingawful.com doesn't allow this, so they change the image linked to something disgusting, so that shows up instead.
That's why "I like to steal bandwidth" is on the image.
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Ah, I see. And yet it is still up. Suspect if that is still the case tomorrow we'll be minus an Ike. HTC don't take kindly to such pics on their BB. Don't say you weren't warned Ike.
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Originally posted by Martlet
not if it's Made in Russia, it can't.
If you just look at the north pole, you'll see how close is USA and USSR.
Can't you tell between 100 miles and 4,062 miles? New York to Los angeles is 2462 miles away
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Originally posted by Frogm4n
they did make a sacrifice, i was trying to point out being stationed in another country isnt a sacrifice when its part of their job. plenty of civilians do it and do not call it a sacrifice, like akiron pointed out. the topic im whineing about is that we really didnt sacrifice anything in destroying the USSR's economy. It was already falling apart in the 70's, and if anything we benefited greatly from it.
I think you've got the wrong perception about military service overseas. I can't speak for the other services, but in the USN, most of us were not "stationed" in another country. We were deployed there. Our homes and our families were left behind for months. Standard West-Pac cruise was about six months in the 80's.
Certainly, one can argue that sea time was what we volunteered for, but the enormity of this decision is never felt at the recruiting office. In 1986, I spent 60 days at home. Throw out a fourth of those for "duty days" and that left 45 days to spend with my wife in a year. In 1988, I shipped out for 7.5 months just two weeks after the birth of my first child. Approximately three years later, I got out. I had more than enough.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
If you just look at the north pole, you'll see how close is USA and USSR.
Can't you tell between 100 miles and 4,062 miles? New York to Los angeles is 2462 miles away
doesn't matter. I'll bet the garbage wouldn't even take off.
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10 bucks sez they splat against the rusted closed silo doors.
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There are nukes at the north pole? And all this time I thought it was global warming.
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You guys talking about the "sacrafice" over serving overseas don't know what you are talking about. Scrafice compared to what?
My father was stationed at CFB Baden-Soellingen, Germany, from 1979 to 1984, serving with the 441 and 429 squads (1CAG) as part of Canada's NATO commitment. Tours overseas were usually for four years. We were there for 5. That's because he got an extension for a year. Almost every one tried to get an extension because servering in Europe rocked. Hell, everyone tried to stationed there in the first place. To quote my old man, "We worked hard and we played hard.".
His family didn't get left behind, we went with him. We lived on an off base PMQ in a fantastic, picturesque little town called Weitenung. From our balcony we could see vineyards on rolling little hills leading up to larger hills covered with the pine trees of the Schartzwald. On one of the hills we could clearly see a little castle, we called it "The Castle Named Ralph", just because.
France was 15 minutes away, Switzerland 2 hours. We took trips all across Europe. Good wine and liqour was dirt cheap. Food, amazing. And almost everything subsidised by DND. There were swimming pool complexes in almost every town. Car shows, beautiful citys and architechure the like of you won't see in North America. DND used to send kids to ski in the Austrian Alps every year.
There were constant exchange programs between the NATO military forces. Squadron fly ins, competitions. But that was back when NATO was one big happy family. My parents made friendships that are still alive and well today.
Without a doubt my father being stationed overseas was one of the best things to happen to my family. And they were some of the best years of our lives.
Sacrafice compared to what? Certainly not compared to servering in CFB Cold Lake, in northern Alberta freezing your bellybutton off in winter, surrounded by nothing wilderness for miles and miles. Certainly not compared to being stationed on a naval vessel for months on end when you truely are separated from your family.
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The sacrifice of serving in the military is enough, for most.
Of course, there are those that could never do anything else, therefore extended military service is a great opportunity.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
You guys talking about the "sacrafice" over serving overseas don't know what you are talking about. Scrafice compared to what?
Not everyone spent all their time overseas with their families. I spent a couple of years away from my wife and kids and many more away from my parents and siblings. When yer a military brat overseas with your family it's quite different. You have your family with ya. If ya don't know what yer talking about you should keep yer pie hole shut. Just a friendly suggestion.
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Originally posted by AKIron
If ya don't know what yer talking about you should keep yer pie hole shut. Just a friendly suggestion.
D00d, I'm not the only one holding these opinions. My dad, the guy who actually served holds them too. I was trying to bring a relativistic arguement to the whole, the sacrafice of going overseas generalisation. For some I'm sure it was, for others it was a joy, especially compare to serving in other places.
Hell, the same argument can be made for military service in general. My father joined the RCAF in 1966. He was airman of the week twice in basic and graduated it as the best airman overall of that group (a couple of hundred guys). I asked him how he did it. He said, "Well, if you were airman of the week you got to go the front of the food line.". He said that basic was like a holiday for him. "All I had to do was make my bed." His dad went psyco during WW2. Treated him absolute garbage. Military service was an escape for him, not a sacrafice.
His best friend, who he met in basic was 26 when he joined. Not a spring chicken by military standards. He used to work shoveling coal for CN rail, in Calgary. He new what kind of life he had ahead of him, little money, little chance of improving himself, and death at young age because of the coal dust. He also didn't see joining the military as a sacrafice, but as an escape of the crappy life he was leading.
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So Thrawn, even though you have no personal experience in the military, your gonna tell those of us who have that our claims of sacrifice are bs?
It's very true that I enjoyed most of my 20 years in the military, including 5 of the 7 years I spent overseas. The two away from my wife and young kids were truly a sacrifice. Agreed, made willingly, but a sacrifice nonetheless. To you and Frog, and anyone else that tries to tell me otherwise I offer you the opportunity to KMFA.
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KMFA.
more correctly, and in context (turn volume up):
KIIIIISSS. MAAAAAHHHH. FFFOOOOOKIN. AAAAAASSSSSSSS!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by AKIron
So Thrawn, even though you have no personal experience in the military, your gonna tell those of us who have that our claims of sacrifice are bs?
No AKIron, I'm trying to tell you part of my father's experiences, and those of other people who I know, who have served in the military, as they have told them to me. I know that some people join their countries military out of feelings and opinions, based on the best reasons of idealism and belief in what their countries stands for and a wish to defend it. But that certainly isn't all the cases or even most. If you look at the demographics for recruits in the CF, most come from relatively impovrished regions and the military is their only way out.
The two away from my wife and young kids were truly a sacrifice. Agreed, made willingly, but a sacrifice nonetheless. To you and Frog, and anyone else that tries to tell me otherwise I offer you the opportunity to KMFA.
But that sacrafice doesn't belong to those in the military alone, nor is it necessarily done for ideals I mentioned above. My dad was stationed at CFB Trenton for a year. Trenton is about 5 hours away from CFB Uplands here in Ottawa. It was a hard time for our familty also. But my dad didn't do it for his country, he did it because it was his job and needed to provide for his family.
PS: And I'm not trying to tell you why you went overseas or why you joined the military. I'm saying it's not that way for everyone.
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It all depends on your background. I work with a guy who was in nam(we have alot of vets in service). When he was in boot camp, there were guys from the midwest who didn't even own a pair of shoes. They thought the service was great. Where as someone from wealth might not see it that way.
But the great thing about the service are the fringe benefits when you get out. Any civil service jobs. Post office,State trooper, local police. And when you take the fire dept exam, you go right to the top of the list. So if you are young and weighing the pros and cons of the service, think of all the doors that open when you get out. It's a good start.
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can immigrants become US citizens if they join the Armed Forces?
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
can immigrants become US citizens if they join the Armed Forces?
Yes. After serving a few years, citizenship is a benefit.
Another subject,
As far as sacrifice goes, how about being seperated from you family for several months at a time? Don't see too many families travelling with the crew of the Nimitz.
How about not seeing the sun for a three month stretch while submerged on a boomer?
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AHHHHH, he's talking about the CANADIAN military.
That makes sense, then.
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Originally posted by Mini D
No, they were locked in their houses as the Russian soldiers did the looting. I do find your reference to "supermarkets" quite funny.
Don't look blindly at history in hopes of proving a point dowding.
MiniD
LMAO supermarkets in east germany .
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Some of you guys are so far left and anti-military/anti-America that it really sticks in yer craw to acknowledge that you owe a debt of gratitude to those who make your freedom possible.
Even though I served, or maybe especially because I served, I feel much gratitude towards those guys and gals in harms way in the Middle East right now. To say that they are just doing their jobs and then feel no gratitude is to blind and blight your own soul.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Yes. After serving a few years, citizenship is a benefit.
It's not necessarily a given. I've known a few Philippine citizens in the USN. Citizenship in the U.S. was not automatic.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Cant yall 2 dorks just fight it out and not involve the rest of the free world in a nuclear exchange?
Cant we all just get along?
:D
Sorry, I just wanted to explain Mratlet why he is told that it's "not their style" to attack Russia and "eat borsch" in Moscow 3 days later.
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tell ya what...
I'll pay for a private room and you two can go at it
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Canada has a Military? :eek:
:D
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Originally posted by AWMac
Canada has a Military? :eek:
:D
you mean a self-defence military like Sweden?