Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Reschke on April 16, 2003, 02:31:14 PM
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After reading the thread linked below last year and then reading the last Clancy book (Red Rabbit) I wanted to say something. "Red Rabbit" takes place after "Patriot Games" and is a bit of a bore at the beginning to get started.
The Bourne Identity (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57939)
While I agree that Tom Clancy has sort of fallen off the wagon since "Without Remorse". I still read his books and I think he does try to "crank out" books faster than he did back in the Red October, etc... days. I used to blow through them and then read the books over and over. But with this last one I got it for Christmas and stumbled through the first 100 pages since then. However once I got past all the buildup with putting the Ryan's in their house outside of London. The Foleys getting installed as the COS Moscow the book picks up steam quickly. Did I mention that it took me from December 25th till late March to read the first hundred or so pages? :confused:
Anyway once the book gets going it does take you back to the times of how Tom Clancy used to write. There is not alot of technobabble but the action is not as in depth as it was in Rainbow Six. I think it is more along the lines of Cardinal of the Kremlin with the story development and how it progresses.
I refuse to watch another Clancy book that gets "adapated" to film. Patriot Games was enough of that for me. I had a cousin go watch Sum or all Fears after she read the book and when she told me she got up and demanded her money back about 1/3 through the movie.
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I'm alright with the technobabble.
When the entire planet conspired to make Jack Ryan the president and mouthpiece for Clancy's political views, I lost interest.
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Yeah Jack Ryan jumped the shark a long time ago.
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Jumped the shark?
I haven't liked much from Clancy lately. I'll read Red Rabbit, but I'll blame reschke if it sucks.
I was actually thinking about Clancy lately though... and current world events. I almost wonder if the current administration has him as one of their advisors. The embedded reporter concept was something he outlined in detail about 5 years ago. A few of the policies genertated were right out his past books too. It was kinda wierd.
Of course, most of his "world events will turn out this way..." assumptions are clearly off the mark as his cause and affect ideas.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Mini D
Jumped the shark?
http://www.jumpedtheshark.com/
Q. What is jumping the shark?
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The term "jump the shark" was coined by my college roommate for 4 years, Sean J. Connolly, in Ann Arbor, Michigan back in 1985. This web site, book, film, and all other material surrounding shark jumping, are hereby dedicated to "the Colonel."
The aforementioned expression refers to the telltale sign of the demise of Happy Days, our favorite example, when Fonzie actually "jumped the shark." The rest is history.
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Sum of all Fears was the last of his I tried to read. Only got about half way through.
All time favorite Clancy: Red Storm Rising
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I wish I was as hip as funked. :)
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I have no evidence to back this up, but I am pretty sure that all his books after Sum of All Fears were written by "Ghost Writers." At least I think that's the term they use - Tom clancy comes up with a theme, plot etc., then contracts the actual writing out to another writer(s).
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I hate Jack Ryan.
Eric L. Harry's books are a much better read.
Arc Light
Invasion
Protect and Defend
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I wish I was as hip as funked. :)
Sit on it Sandman!
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Stopped reading Clancy after "Bear & Dragon", what are they going to make with Ryan next? Pope ? Seriously...
Anyway, if you liked his previous genre, I can only recommend Larry Bond ()Amazon Link (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=Bond%2C%20Larry/002-3915438-9573611) , Some will like "Cauldron" (ASIN: 0446515671 )(Modern US Vs France/Germany conflict).
And of course, there's always Dale Brown, Stephen Coonts, etc...
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I like Larry Bond and Dale Brown. "Cauldron" reminds me of "Red Storm Rising" in some ways but mainly for the intensity of action. Some of Dale Browns books just went off the deep end. "Hammerheads" just blew all my positive thoughts about Dale Brown out of the water. I still enjoy reading his stuff from time to time but sometimes its just way out there. I enjoyed the one about the kid who was planted in the US by the KGB to get into the Air Force and was later activated and attempted to steal a prototype F-15.I think it was called "Day of the Cheetah".
There is a semi-fictional series about a family whose dad was one of the NCDU guys in WW2 and then went on to help found the UDT's and SEALs. The writer is H. Jay Riker and the series is called "SEALs": The Warrior Breed". It is a fairly good series to read and the books have some action and cover the entire NCDU phase on up to Viet Nam and into the 80's.
Another pure action writer is Keith Douglass who writes the Seal Team Seven series and another series called Carrier. His lulls in action are usually fill in material of training runs or something but they don't last more than a few pages. Then when he hits the ground running in the book usually a couple of guys get hit and one occasionally dies but not without valor. Overall this one is just a pure action series
While I don't "hate" Jack Ryan as a character he is about 3 books past his prime. Clancy should have retired Jack Ryan after "Sum of All Fears" or at least made him into a lesser character. I really was hoping that after "Without Remorse" and "Rainbow Six"; he (Clancy); would expand the roles of Clark and Chavez.
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MiniD:
I can not be held accountable for my views on Tom Clancy's latest book. My views are strictly my own and I did say it took me almost three whole months to get through the first 100 or so pages.
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Wineman:
Interesting thought process on the "ghost writer" theory for Clancy. I know that he has "collaborated" with several other writers in the past few years for his "Net Force" series and I have never read any of those so I can not put that style of writing to any of the Clancy books since "Sum of All Fears".
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Originally posted by AKIron
All time favorite Clancy: Red Storm Rising
Ditto.
I stopped reading Clancy after The Bear and the Dragon
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I wish I was as hip as funked. :)
Thas sig material :D
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Watched Sum of all Fears on DVD.. was annoyed. Then I watched the 'Authors commentary' dub over also on the DVD.. it was clancy and the director narrating.. first comment clancy made was 'so your the ******* that ruined my book?'
I was hooked.
Watched the movie through a second time while Clancy and the director hob nobbed as THEY watched it. any time they started talking the movie diolouge went into subtitles. was FANTASTICK!
All Clancy movies should be watched this way. ;)
Best Clancy Book.. Red Storm Rising. I read through the night and missed the next day of work. Rivited me to the couch. Spectacular. Hunt for Red October was my second-favorite.. and i admit i kinda enjoyed Rainbow Six. rest were so- so.
Reccomended.. Kilo Class, by Patrick Robinson. His follow on, Nimitz Class was ok, but the thrill was gone. HMS Unseen was ok.
Annother decent pick.. Stephen Hunters 'Master Sniper, and 'Black Light' as well as 'Point of Impact'. Not too shabby.
If you like your novels to make you smile... AND twist your brain a bit try Nelson Demille.. my favorite novel.. "Plum Island". The novel wends it's way through my stomping grounds and captures the essence of 'out east' perfectly. Everything DeMille does is very good. One of the best cold war novels i ever read was 'Charm School'. You'll miss a day of work on that one too. 'Word of Honor' touched me pretty hard. I really identified with that character. He also wrote 'Generals Daughter'.. poor movie, excellent novel.
so much for hangs book picks... ;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Annother decent pick.. Stephen Hunters 'Master Sniper, and 'Black Light' as well as 'Point of Impact'. Not too shabby.
More than decent IMHO.
Pale Horse Coming... Hunters latest, aint bad either.
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the main dude in 'without remorse' is based on several real life teamguys. clancy interviewed a bunch of guys in the teams before he wrote that book. theres a guy who was in the teams that actually owned a small island and would kayak out there to chill out and hunt and camp away from everything from time to time. the book was still gay tho. like some guy is gonna fall in love with a hooker and break down crying in her arms because of the 'horror'. the moment that dude was on the boat and had less than four hookers with him it became fiction or more likely horror fiction. red storm rising is cool especially for anyone in military in 1980s. i think red october popularity with military guys went to clancys head tho. he fall into same trap that too many writers do. some of most dangerous dudes i know spend free time watching walt disney flicks with the kids not sharpening knives or having hollywood ptsd attacks. unless you know the faces the only way to tell if the guys drinking in dannys are SEALs or not is if they play theme to goodfellas like sixty times in a row. :)
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Even with the love theme in "Without Remorse" that was my favorite of all time. Although I think that Clancy took the upriver ride from a WEB Griffin book about a deep behind the lines prisoner rescue.
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the problem is when special operations became really sexy it seems like every guy who ever spent a few years in a unit went and wrote a book. action being slim for several years this means alot of the books either really boring or full of exciting stories that never really happened in the way they told. one of the best book you could read i think its called 'the teams' but its an oral history type book where the authors interviewed several real honest to god badasses and just let them talk. lots of funny stories and some real exciting ones but no bull**** in the book. if you are going to let a book give you impression about the guys who do that type of work thats the book for you. its one of the few books on the subject that the guys who do the actual work actually reccomended to each other for reading. ive had a couple of guys reccomend 'the warrior elite' as well but havent check it out personally. maybe i was wrong saying 'without remorse' was gay but i could have skipped the whole hooker with a heart of gold subset. make the chick his sister and its actually sorta believeable. the planning and work up for the rescue mission and the rescue mission was actually pretty ok. especially because everything didnt go right. but then its probably ok because its inspired by son tay raid and follows real life very close.
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Have read the book you recommend there and I enjoyed it as well. I also liked the books "Point Man" and "Walking Point" by James 'Patches' Watson. A couple of others were "Brave Men, Dark Waters" by Orr Kelly and the three books by Gary R. Smith that he wrote in a series on his time as a SEAL.
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ok now i gotta be a little careful here lest i get into some trouble or piss off somebody. watson is bad ass. his books straight shooters. kelly has lots of buddies in the teams so hes gonna play fair as well. the other books you mention are not as nonfiction as some are lead to believe. some accounts of combat action in those books made guys who were at same action laugh butts off when they read book version of combat action. action told in such a way as to make author look like a superhero. here another example of creative storytelling but different motivation behind creativity. marcinko describe some combat action in his book that is sort of false. operators who work in that line of work were worried when they read book because story of combat make marcinko look 'bad ass' to non operator but operator thinking 'why in hell he doing this?'. real story of combat would be boring from his point of view but in real life he doing exact perfect thing for him to be doing. in rogue warrior there is story where marcinko and his boys are fighting house to house in VN and one of his boys goes into middle of street with 60 and start blazing away and is killed by single bullet to head. in real life marcinko not involved in combat because he oic and is thousand meters to rear with radios and coordinating battle from there which is exactly what he supposed to be doing. also teamguy who was killed not killed in that manner. teamguy was killed as they hauling recoiless rifle up to balcony second floor with ropes to engage heavily fortified mg position on second floor across street from balcony. the dude popped his head up as arm reached over balcony to grab rope further down. mg rounds flying everywhere and one catches him in head or maybe in heart and he dead instantly. first inaccuracy kind of excusable as he trying to tell better story. second inaccuracy not so cool as this guy actually died and some readers will now think that teamguy went 'rambo' in combat. some other operator reading that book would think that dude lost his cool and died a stupid death. stick with kelly he kind of unofficial historian i think. young is cool hes an old school guy like watson. for 1980s read bad bos book he tells it like it is as well. but for accuracy id say best book is non operator telling story from interviews with operators in my opinion. that reporter who did the story about mogadishu raid is a good example but even that book glossed over some big screwups by high ranking officers involved in raid and other operations.
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Flight of the intruder kicked arse.
Rest of that d00ds books 'jumped the shark'