Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Z0mBe on April 16, 2003, 04:20:35 PM
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38 Drivers:
I have been flying the p-51's lately because I can't seem to win in the p38. I know to bnz the spits and niks and that I can outtrun them at all alttitudes. I know I can outturn and usually outrun the 190s. I know I can outrun and bnz the 109e/f and the g6.
What gets me is the yak-9u's, 109g2/g10, the la-5/7s, p51's and f4u's.
Everyone tells me to use flaps at xxx speed and yo-yo or whatever, but these planes still (don't laugh at me AKAK :)) often outturn me or get the advantage on the merge. It seems if I try to immel, they shoot me on the way up before I get to the top of the first immelman. Obviously, I cant seem to outturn them after the merge either.
I know the p38 is one of the rare planes that can outturn what it can't outrun, but I don't know how to do it.
If anyone has any tips on what to do versus my "trouble" enemies, that would be great. Merge tactics and flap usage would ESPECIALLY be appreciated :).
By the way, I always take the light gun load and no more than %50 internal fuel.
Thank you again from a former 38 devotee who wants to get back in the saddle again.
<>
Z0mBe
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Cutting throttle on the merge helps you get around alot faster, along with the flaps.
My merge usually consists of diving under the nose of the enemy, and never going up infront of him. Most of the pilots i duel tend to go straight up infront of me, before we even made the merge. I cut throttle and wait for them to cross my guns. Pulling up thru a blackout is not a bad thing. I am mostly blackedout thru the full merge. GL!
Im not a P-38 pilot but ACM in one plane is the same as in the next.
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if you pass below them, won't the AH gunnery/damage model allow you to be hit in the top-front quarter?
Z0mBe
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Not if you go down enough. Diving under them is a good tactic if they also try to HO you, so its a win win situation.
I start diving at around 3 - 3.4k. Once you get better and better you will find what works best for you. So time is a very important factor :)
=S=
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Of all those trouble planes you listed, the P-38L can out turn each of them.
From what you described, I'm willing to bet that you are using Combat Trim in the P-38L and that's a major mistake. Combat Trim has such a small window where it's useful in the P-38L that you're better off not using it at all. And the P-38L only really needs trim adjustments to the elevator and you shouldn't have to adjust aileron/rudder trims. The only time I adjust aileron/rudder trim is to compensate for battle damage to my wings, like when I have half of one missing. I don't ever recall of having to adjust rudder trims in the P-38L. So in short, Combat Trim in the P-38 won't let you push the envelope.
Another important thing is throttle management. In AW, we didn't really have to worry about that since we could keep it 100% with WEP on without any adverse effects. In here, it's much more important and I think throttle control is just as important as flaps management in the P-38L.
There isn't just one 'trick' that will let you defeat certain planes, IMO, it takes a little more than that but I've always told any ex-AWer P-38 driver that the same tactics you used in AW can be used here with success (not 100% success but the majority of the time).
Here's a small library of films I made in the P-38L, in various situations and a lot of them are against the planes you are having troubles with. There's a couple of films where I duel a Yak to show that the P-38 can out perform a Yak in a fight.
P-38 films (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73435&highlight=P38+films//)
Here's some more films in the P-38 but these were made by Leviathn and are fantastic training films as they give an excellent idea on how to use flaps and show how well the P-38 can hang on its props in the vertical.
Leviathn's P-38 films (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84329&highlight=P38+films)
Now that I figured out the problem with my in-flight film recorder and have fixed it, I'll be making more P-38 films and post them here. In the meantime, here's my most recent film. It's a duel against BBBB flying a Spitfire Mk XIV against my P-38L.
Spitfire Mk XIV vs. P-38L (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/BBBBduel4.ahf)
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Another important factor when fighting the P-38L, is that a lot of people don't have a clear grasp of exactly just what it can do.
Some people mention the C.205, others mention the La-5FN, but personally I think the single most under-estimated fighter in AH is the P-38L. The P-38L is a late-war variant that solved many of the problems with its previous versions, and has superior performance powerful enough to satisfy MA standards.
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typically in verticals, the P-38L possesses both the out-zooming and and out-climbing characteristics.
"Out-zooming" is a unique trait that belongs almost exclusively to the US fighters, coming from the fact that they are heavy. Common physics suggest that heavy objects, as long as there is enough power, moves faster than light objects, and it is also more difficult to stop a heavy object than a light one. Thus, as long as a plane holds enough speed in the initial stages, a heavier plane will zoom up faster than a lighter one.
I'm sure that everyone has the experience of chasing a P-51 or a P-47, being pretty sure that with current E-states you'll be able to follow him throughout his zoom climb. Then suddenly, as the heavy US plane starts going vertical, you note in dismay that for some reason it is difficult to catch it in a vertical... and by the time you almost catch up to him, he's coming down on you with those 4~8 .50 machine gun blazing head-on.
This is because, while light planes with powerful engines such as the Bf109s can zoom up in great distances, the speed of the zoom isn't particularly fast. Thus, though in absolute height a plane like the Bf109 may out-zoom a US fighter, often the US fighter(if it had enough speed) can zoom up very fast, finish the reversal and come thundering down when the Bf109 is still on its way up. When timed right, it offers a very deadly Head-On shot opportunity for the US fighter - in a vertical situation, the upper plane coming down can aim a lot more accurately than the lower plane. The upper plane in this case, also has a superior weapon with high rate of fire and accuracy, and also has better hitting power due to the kinetic energy(Pyro says AH models kinetic energy differences in fired rounds).
On the other hand, "out-climbing" is a characteristic more familiar with the lighter planes. The Bf109 can go vertical, and go a great distance in this state thanks to its light weight and powerful engine. In equal E-states, if a US plane cannot time his 'out-zooming' right, the Bf109 will stick behind its tail and just not let it go in a vertical. Often a 109G-10 can turn the tables against a P-51D or a P-47D that comes down in a typical BnZ attack. Just lure the enemy plane down in a shallow dive, and once the Bf109 hits 400~450mph speed, if the US plane zooms up after a failed attack, the 109 can, and will follow it in a zoom climb despite 50~80mph speed difference. Also, against more maneuverable and nimble fighters, the Bf109 can lure it into a sustained climb rate competition, which of course the winner is only obvious.
Now, the P-38L has BOTH of those characteristics(!). It has its natural advantages of being a heavy US fighter. It also climbs exceptionally well for a US plane.
Of course, it cannot the out-climb the Bf109, but in a pure vertical situation, that problem is neutralized due to the fact that it has no torque, and continue the zoom up to drastically low speed and still make a quick and safe reversal.
In AH, there is a high possibility of falling into a plain or inverted flat spin if a vertical zoom is carried on for too long. Thus, in every plane there is a 'safety limit' which the reversal sequence has to be started. or face the dangers of falling into a difficult stall. Of course, there's a difference between expert pilots and rookies, but generally, the reversal has to be started around 100mph for most of the planes. In the case of the P-38L, this 'safety speed' may go down to as low as 30~50mph(!!). Go straight up, and just pop flaps out and it will nose down clean, without leaning all over the place(and making it prone to falling into a bad stall) due to torque.
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The combination of those three factors - out-zooming, out-climbing, and no-torque - gives the P-38L a very rare characteristic advantage which no other fighter in AH holds. It turns the P-38L into perhaps the most dreaded vertical fighter in AH.
Is that all for the P-38L? Of course not.
Recent tests(courtesy of Mister Fork) reveal that the P-38L is in 11th place at low altitudes, and 5th place(!) at high altitudes in acceleration.
Also, with the exception of a few USN fighters, it boasts a superior turning performance among US planes. No Luftwaffe plane out-turns the P-38L except the Bf109E-4 and the F-4.
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So, when all of the traits we see are put together into one, the P-38L, is a plane like this:
1) Excellent in verticals
2) Good sustained climb
3) Average/Good turn performance
4) Excellent acceleration
5) Good speed at high alt(about 416mph @ 25,000ft)
6) Good speed at low alt(about 344mph @ deck)
7) Excellent firepower(.50x4, HispMkII 20mmx1, centerline armament)
8) Excellent dive
9) Average/Good roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Excellent roll performance at 400+mph
11) Very Poor pitch response at 400+mph
12) Excellent multi-purpose plane
13) Good range
Compare the Bf109G-10 in same categories..
1) Excellent in verticals
2) Excellent sustained climb
3) Poor/Average turn performance
4) Excellent acceleration
5) Excellent speed at high alt(about 452mph @ 22,000ft)
6) Excellent speed at low alt(366mph @ deck)
7) Poor firepower(MK108 has problems with efficiency as A2A weapon)
8) Average dive
9) Average roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Very Poor roll performance at 400+mph
11) Very Poor pitch response at 400+mph
12) Very Poor multi-purpose plane
13) Very Poor range
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Now, compare the Fw190D-9 also..
1) Good/Excellent in verticals
2) Average sustained climb
3) Very Poor turn performance
4) Average acceleration
5) Excellent speed at high alt(about 427mph @ 17,500ft)
6) Excellent speed at low alt(about 375mph @ deck)
7) Good firepower
8) Excellent dive
9) Excellent roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Good roll performance at 400+mph
11) Average/Good pitch response at 400+mph
12) Very Poor multi-purpose plane
13) Poor/Average range
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How about the P-51D?
1) Good/Excellent in verticals
2) Average sustained climb
3) Poor turn performance
4) Average acceleration
5) Excellent speed at high alt(about 437mph @ 24,500ft)
6) Excellent speed at low alt(about 367mph @ deck)
7) Good/Excellent firepower
8) Excellent dive
9) Good roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Good roll performance at 400+mph
11) Excellent pitch response at 400+mph
12) Excellent multi-purpose plane
13) Excellent range
and the La-7?
1) Excellent in verticals(limited to low altitudes)
2) Excellent in sustained climb(limited to low altitudes)
3) Average turn performance
4) Excellent acceleration
5) Good speed at high alt(about 410mph @ 20,000ft)
6) Excellent speed at low alt(about 380mph @ deck)
7) Good firepower
8) Average dive
9) Average roll performance at 300~400mph
10) Average roll performance at 400+mph
11) Poor/Average pitch response at 400+mph
12) Poor multi-purpose plane
13) Good range(La-7 range seems to have some problems)
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This crude, but simple comparison shows that as a balanced fighter, the P-38L is one of the best planes in AH.
The reason that people often do not realize this fact is, many rookies come in this plane with jabo purposes and either auger to the ground, or get chased by zillion enemy planes and drop out of the sky like flies. There aren't many people who solely specialize in the P-38L, and most of the times it is a secondary choice as a high-risk jabo plane. Thus, not many are familiar with its potentials. It is usually an easy kill.
Another reason is its lack of low-alt speed. 344mph at deck is not a slow speed, but considering the nature of the MA, once it chased around at low altitudes, it is not going to escape planes like the La-7. However, this is a problem with many other planes also.
Perhaps the most important reason is its bad reputation coming from the comments of Luftwaffe officers. Despite the P-38s in Europe were earlier variants, many people still do not realize that there is a very clear difference in performance levels between the "L" model and its predecessors such as "H", "F" or "G" models. The difference between the "L" and its earlier brothers, is like the difference between the LaGG-3 and the La-5FN.
Whatever reason there may be, the P-38L is underlooked. Advantages in maximum speed, is only worth something when you are running. As long as one chooses to fight, the P-38L is a very powerful enemy.
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Well put KWEASSA :)
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38 Tipsters:
What can I say guys but...WOW!
Thank you all so much! I will climb back into the P38L.
AKAK, you are right about the combat trim...I will turn it off.
Kweassa...thank you for the direct comparisons! I never thought you would post so much information!
WildThing...I will try to work on the merge stuff you mentioned. A dive that extreme makes a lot of sense. It was my basic tactic in AW in RR and FR versus all enemies. It worked like a charm there and just needs a little tweaking here I now realize.
<> and thank you all,
Z0mBe
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If ya ever need a practice dueling partner let me know Zombe, I can play the "bad guy" in the g10 or 190. Wldthings suggestion of laying off throttle on the merge is good advice too.
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Originally posted by Elysian
If ya ever need a practice dueling partner let me know Zombe, I can play the "bad guy" in the g10 or 190. Wldthings suggestion of laying off throttle on the merge is good advice too.
Same here.. if ya ever want to schedule a time, you can film the fights, My email is in the Sig.
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Originally posted by Elysian
If ya ever need a practice dueling partner let me know Zombe, I can play the "bad guy" in the g10 or 190. Wldthings suggestion of laying off throttle on the merge is good advice too.
And I'll play the "good guy" beating up the cherry picking wuss (ely) :D
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Kweassa,
Ive been out of the AH cockpit for roughly 2 months and now finally back in the states! GREAT REPLY ON THIS EMAIL!!!!!!!!!!!
OMG I learned alot!!!!
Thanks!
:D
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Nice films AKAK. 10 whole seconds before the private ch. whine:D
Thanks for all the info AKAK and Kweassa.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Nice films AKAK. 10 whole seconds before the private ch. whine:D
10 seconds? New record
Ack-Ack
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Originally posted by wetrat
And I'll play the "good guy" beating up the cherry picking wuss (ely) :D
Lol wetrat, wtf?
Admit it, you envy my gondolas.
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"What gets me is the yak-9u's, 109g2/g10, the la-5/7s, p51's and f4u's."
Of all those, only the La5 and the Yak should give you any trouble, as they are the closest match for a P-38.
Kweassa put a lot of info there, here's my .2 cents (shortened since Kweassa put most of the info up there already :) ):
Your first and foremost thing to do in the P38 is to know your plane's advantages and disadvantages vs your opponent's weaknesses and advantages.
Yak9U: Cons: Poor acceleration (compared to P38), very short range guns (aka, dangerous only under d400). Pro's: Yak will match P38 in low speed handling (under 150mph) and in High speed handling. Very small target.
To defeat the Yak, if you on the attacker role, fly the 38 as if it was a P-51. That is, come at him fast, do 1 pass, and extend, return if you need to. But always stay fast and dont let the bugger inside d500 of you. If the Yak is on the attacker role, your best chance is to get him on the deck and below 150 mph (sciscor, etc, just get him on the deck and slow him down). Once on the deck the 38's much superior acceleration will allow you to run away from it, yaks usually spray their ammo as you do this.
109g2: Cons: slightly worse turn rate, very poor low speed handling. Pros: Better dive rate, little better climb rate, very nice afterburner WEP.
The 109G2 is rather easy to beat, just do lazy lag persuit and dont follow it on dives. Once it begins to turn (109g2's love to try and do the yo-yo dance), keep taking potshots with the 50's, you will score a crippling hit easy enough.
109G10 cons: very poor turn rate and low speed handling. Cons: Monstrous climb rate and acceleration, very nasty guns.
109G10s do one thing: They climb and try to rope you or hammerhead you. Ironically, this 109 is the easiest to beat since it is the most predictable. If it noses up to climb, you just nose up at half his climb, keep your speed at 250 always, no matter if the 109 is pulling up up up and away. The g10's always climb until they see you like at d800 then they turn and do a dive attack on you. If you kept your speed at 250, the P-38 will have enough speed to do a half-turn to evade the bounce and then take potshots at the 109g10 as it dives. The 109 usually has only 150mph when it dives past you, so your 250mph and your 1.2k .50's should allow you to score a few shots . Dont EVER follow the g10 on the dive, always let him dive away.
La5 : cons: poor acceleration, crappy short range guns. Pros: Very manouverable, small, good dive rate.
La5s can be beat in the vertical. Dont ever get into a turn or E-fight with the things, they will eat you.
La7: cons: Poor turn rate, horrible low speed handling, short range guns. Pro: Monstrous acceleration, high top speed, great climb rate under 20k.
If you see an La7, DROOL. Sciscors will kill these things so easy its just not funny.
P-51: Cons: Bad acceleration, poor climb rate. Pros: Excellent dive and high speed handling, excellent E retention.
P51's are will seriously test your SA. There are only 2 rules vs these things: If under 25k, you better get them turning or hope they do something stupid..like turn with you or loop you. If over 25k, the P51 is only a danger on the first one or 2 passes it makes at you, after that it wont be able to climb to do its high speed passes, then its left with 2 options: Turn or dive and run. If they dive and run YOU WIN! If they turn, then the P-38's fowler flaps turn the thing into a virtual Zero up that high, eat his arse.
So far the best all-around tactic ive found vs the P51 is to force HO's. Remember, his only tactic vs you is to dive at high speed and hit you and run away. If you deny his attack by turning to HO him, the pony driver is neutralized unless he wants to try his luck. Most do and die to your 1.4k .50 cals that dont suffer from dispersion. *hint*
F4U's:
Cons: Very poor low speed handling, poor climb rate, very poor acceleration. Pro: slightly better dive rate, good turn rate.
F4U's are easy to beat. Just sciscor or go vertical with them. Word of caution, dont vertical a C-Hog, those maggots just need 1 ping to git ya. And always remember, your superior acceleration means that if you get it low and slow, he's at your mercy.
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Originally posted by OIO
[BSo far the best all-around tactic ive found vs the P51 is to force HO's. Remember, his only tactic vs you is to dive at high speed and hit you and run away. If you deny his attack by turning to HO him, the pony driver is neutralized unless he wants to try his luck. Most do and die to your 1.4k .50 cals that dont suffer from dispersion. *hint*[/B]
If im flying a P-51, and have to HO another con, best way to do it is to HO while coming down on the con. It is very hard for him to shoot up, and alot easier for me to shoot down.
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Kwessa has the right idea, the only thing to add is to make sure you keep your P-38 fairly light. Too many people take bombs/rockets and forget they are there (since they were maybe last using the P-38 for jabo work). Also, lighten up on fuel, the P-38 has some 38 minutes worth on internal, so take half that and a drop tank and you should have tonnes of range. Remember the P-38 has two engines you are feeding, so packing 38 minutes worth of fuel is a whole lot of weight.
Finally, I tend not to take the heavy ammo load. I typically find it's time to leave the fight before I have had a chance to burn up all my ammo if I take the heavy load. I think the P-38 handles a bit better when light on ammo, maybe it's the fact that it's stored all in the nose or something.
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
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Originally posted by Soda
Also, lighten up on fuel, the P-38 has some 38 minutes worth on internal, so take half that and a drop tank and you should have tonnes of range. Remember the P-38 has two engines you are feeding, so packing 38 minutes worth of fuel is a whole lot of weight.
Finally, I tend not to take the heavy ammo load. I typically find it's time to leave the fight before I have had a chance to burn up all my ammo if I take the heavy load. I think the P-38 handles a bit better when light on ammo, maybe it's the fact that it's stored all in the nose or something.
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
75% fuel and 1 DT (if you plan extended flights) is a good fuel load out for the P-38 without sacrificing maneuverability. The only times I bring less fuel than that is if the base or target I'm attacking is within the same sector as the base I took off from. As for the ammo load, you can never have too much ammo. I never take the light ammo load and the times that I have taken the light ammo load, the gains you get with the lighter load is almost negligible.
Ack-Ack
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The easyest way to kill a pony is to get them in a climbing
spirel,then when they point ther nose down to regain energy bounce um :D
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My biggest complaint about the P-38:
How come, when I stall the P-38, it always falls off to the left? I thought the contra-rotating propellers solved the torque twist problem? This makes it very tough to do low-speed turn fights.
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it doesnt gofaster. It all depends on the angle your plane is banked.
The only issues the current 38 model has is the dive flaps not working properly and the fowlers auto-retracting. And the lack of earlier models ;) ;)
wldthng:
If your P51 decides to shoot down on the 38 in a HO situation, you will be in an extreme disadvantage vs. the 38 until you get inside d600 range. Convergence! The P38's 4X.50s and 20mm will hit you way out to d1.2 while your .50's dont have much chance to ping the 38 at those ranges. Then theres the fact that you have 1 engine and the 38 has 2, even if the 51 and 38 ping each other silly, the 38 has the most chances of making it home.
Cobia:
That works great if the pony is low on E.. but then if thats the case you already have his arse served. That tactic works GREAT against the 190s (except d9). :)
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Fabulous Thread Gents...
Thanks for all the input...
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Just remember: some pilots are good, few are great; but the very best flew the P-38! :D
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
As for the ammo load, you can never have too much ammo. I never take the light ammo load and the times that I have taken the light ammo load, the gains you get with the lighter load is almost negligible.
Ack-Ack [/B]
I agree, the weight loss on ammo isnt enough to make a slight performance increase worth while. I often have 50%-75% fuel on board, and 1 or 2 drop tanks. It is preferable not to get into serious fighting in a 38 with more than 50% imo, it cuts the instantainous turn rate too much.
Hi Zombe, didnt know you were flying again =)
Back to wt's comment, if you are under the merge and both of you immel, because you are starting your turn lower your radius point is at a lower alt than your enemies. Which means you can take a biger radius to top out near the same point as the nme, less turn, more E retention. Or if you would pull the exact turn rate as your nme you would top out inside their turn. Or as wt suggests you could burn E and pull very tight inside their turn. Its a classic merge technique. When I would duel w/vmpr or fedex we would often dive into the merge from 5k and sometimes merge at 20ft trying to get under each others merge. Also besides going directly under you can often make a HO even harder by pointing a few degrees left or right, then re-orienting on the nme in the last few seconds before the merge. With practice you can actually end up pulling your immel several degrees offset to theirs. The advantage to that is that lesser experience pilots will look up_back or up and not see you, and be confused long enough to die quietly =). If your doing it right you should rarely ever take a hit at the merge
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I mean, this is all personal preference, but I find the lighter I can fight my P-38 the better. Interal fuel volume/weight is huge in the P-38, some 410 gallons at full load. Knocking that down to half and adding a drop tank is very helpful. 50% and droptank if I'm close, never more than 75% and 1-2 droptanks if I'm going a distance. Only for extreme cruising to I load more than that.
As for the ammo load, I really wish there were something between the 200 and 500 rounds/gun load. The hispano has a firing time of ~14 seconds and at 200 rounds/gun the .50's give 15 seconds. I found this a nice match because I tend to get close and fire everything (hispanos/50's have similar ballistics). If I bulked up to the 500 rounds/gun, you have some 38 seconds of firing time, which is a tonne, but less than half can include hispano. Also, the weight is significant, on the order of 350 pounds difference since the light load is so small yet the heavy ammo load is so HUGE. It really does seem that it's 350 pounds hanging out on the nose too which seems to hurt a bit more.
Personal taste though, experiment. I wish there were the option to load something more in the order of 300-350 rounds for the .50's though. That would give a little extra for "ranging".
Can't claim the P-38 as my main ride though. I've been spending quite a bit of time in the cockpit of it lately though, what a nice bird.
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
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I dont know if its just me or what but when im flying any kind of plane i dont see a difference between 100% or 25% fuel, or 3000 rounds of ammo or 1000..
Have no idea why i dont "feel" light if im actually carrying a lighter amount.
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In most planes I don't notice either, but I can tell in the P-38 and in the P-47. In the P-38 it's such a large difference in load, more than double, and the positioning is a little far forward. Might just be me though... but I find that it feels "lighter" and slightly more stable with less ammo up front.
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
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soda, fly without Combat trim and keep the trim tab on or below the "L" of "elev" .
Even if it means you having to put a slightly upward pull on the stick when going at lower speeds, the P38 is super stable and it wont have a bouncy nose during combat or manouvers.
The ammo load makes no real difference imo. Even if it did, i'd still take the full ammo load and just be trigger happy until the 50 cal ammo goes down to "light ammo load" level ;)
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I never fly with combat trim... always manual trim.
I guess it's a difference in opinion, I tend to think I can feel the heavier ammo on the P-38 in performance. It's nothing major, just a little, but I tend to find the light load more than enough for a half dozen kills if I set up decent shots. I tend to be fairly tight on ammo use though so quantity is not usually an issue. Nothing in the game is as easy to aim as the P-38.
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
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A nice little write up about the advantages and disadvantages of the P-38L, especialy for Aces high.
All credit to the guy that wrote this.
P-38L Overview (http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/P38L.htm)
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Soda's Aircraft Evaluations (http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/models)
Glad you found my site useful and I try to keep it up to date when I have the time.
I found the comparision of ideas in this thread interesting since I know how good some of the guys who have commented in this thread are.
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
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Originally posted by Soda
Soda's Aircraft Evaluations (http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/models)
Glad you found my site useful and I try to keep it up to date when I have the time.
I found the comparision of ideas in this thread interesting since I know how good some of the guys who have commented in this thread are.
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
Some minor errors in the P-38L evaluation write up. Flaps can be deployed at 250mph (IAS) or lower and the description for compressability is incorrect and compressability in the P-38 only occured in dives if they were started above 20,000ft, not at any altitude.
Ack-Ack
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I actually have a revised P-38 page to put up but Ack-Ack is correct, flaps can be used up to 250mph.
Compression can occur at any altitude though at lower altitudes the critical number is higher (right around 500mph). At higher levels this is lower, more in the range of 460mph. You also tend to see Mach buffet before compression and also structural creaking at lower levels. It is entirely possible in an extended shallow dive to compress all the way to the ground though. Recovery at lower levels is much easier, simply throttle back and bleed a little speed. The P-38 doesn't seem to "run-away" in compression nearly as badly as the 109's do.
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
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Originally posted by Soda
I actually have a revised P-38 page to put up but Ack-Ack is correct, flaps can be used up to 250mph.
Compression can occur at any altitude though at lower altitudes the critical number is higher (right around 500mph). At higher levels this is lower, more in the range of 460mph. You also tend to see Mach buffet before compression and also structural creaking at lower levels. It is entirely possible in an extended shallow dive to compress all the way to the ground though. Recovery at lower levels is much easier, simply throttle back and bleed a little speed. The P-38 doesn't seem to "run-away" in compression nearly as badly as the 109's do.
-Soda
Aces High Trainer Corps
The Assassins.
Here is a good write-up from the web site P-38 Online about the effects of a dive in a P-38 and why you should be more wary of compressability at high altitudes than you should at lower altitudes.
A typical dive of the P-38 from high altitudes would always experience compressibility. Starting from 36,000 ft., the P-38 would rapidly approach the Mach .675 (445 mph true airspeed). At this point, the airflow going over the wing exceeds Mach 1. A shockwave is created, thus breaking up the airflow equaling a loss of lift. The shockwave destroys the pressure difference between the upper and lower wing, and disrupts the ability for the aircraft to sustain flight. As the lift decreases, the airflow moving back from the wing also changes in its form and pattern. Normal downwash aft of the wing towards the tail begins to deteriorate. The airflow across the tail shifts from normal to a condition where there is now a greater upload, of lifting force, on the tail itself. With the greater uploading force applied to the tail, the nose of the aircraft wants to nose down even more, which creates a steeper and faster dive. As the aircraft approaches the vertical line, it begins to tuck under and starts a high-speed outside loop. At this point, the airframe is at the greatest point of structural failure. When the angle of attack increases during the dive, it also increases for the tail. The resulting effect is that the pilot cannot move the controls because tremendous force is required to operate the aircraft. The pilot is simply a passenger during this period. Shockwaves become shock fronts, which decrease the lift no matter what the pilot tries to do. Instead of smooth airflow over the wing, it is extremely turbulent, and strikes the tail with great force. The aircraft can only recover when it enters lower, denser atmosphere lower to the ground.
The solution to the problem was in understanding that the speed of sound changes with the altitude. At sea level, it is 764 mph, while at 36,000 ft. it is 660 mph. An aircraft moving at 540 mph at 36,000 ft. is much higher in the compressibility zone. The same speed at sea level results in the aircraft being exposed to lower effects of compressibility, and will respond to pilot controls. The dive recovery flap was a solution to this problem. In the ETO, German pilots would dive out of trouble because they knew the P-38 pilots would not follow. This greatly reduced the effectiveness of the aircraft in normal battle conditions. The NACA tested the flaps in high-speed wind tunnels at the Ames Laboratory. They tried several locations before discovering that when the flaps were positioned just aft of the trailing edge of the wings, it showed definite improvements. The flaps were finally positioned beneath the wings outboard of the booms, and just aft of the main structural beam. The pilots had a button on the yoke, and would simply activate the flap just prior to entering a dive.
P-38 Online (http://www.p-38online.com/testing.html)
Ack-Ack
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There's one thing soda, the 38's flaps dont give the plane any real advantage unless its got 2 or more flaps out. The 1st flap only helps at alts above 25k, below that it only slows the plane down without giving it any serious turn performance.
And thanks to the $#@#$ bs autoretracting flaps in AH, the 38 cannot use 2 flaps during a fight for long because the INSTANT the speed ticker hits the 200mph mark, it retracts, making the plane extremely unstable and spin-happy, especially if you are pulling G's (which is the only reason why you have the damn flaps out in the first place, to TURN).
There's nothing more frustrating in this game than baiting a high E/Alt con into sciscoring or turning/looping with you, be pulling 3G's constantly, your speed be 180mph, 2 or 3 flaps out, you're gaining angles on the con on a below horizon turn/loop/sciscor portion, speed goes 180 ... 190..185..200 *WRUMMMM* flaps start retracting, speed is 190 ... All because it hit the 200 mark for a split second and the 38 loses angles inmediately, and god help you if you were actually beggining to pull a bit harder on the stick when it was retracting because it will spin the plane instantly.
A load of crock if you ask me. Bah!
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OIO,
Maybe you would prefer the structural failure that probably began to occur at 200 in RL.
Doctor, it hurts when I do that.
Don't do that.
DJ229
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No, structural failure/problems occured at around 300mph. Early model 38's used their flaps above 250mph (with severe buffetting); it was only the late models (J, L) that had locks to prevent their DEPLOYMENT above 200mph (which was a pencilneck assigned safety airspeed).
The 38's fowler flaps could not be blown "up" by the windforce because of the flaps mechanical deploy/retract system (if memory serves me right it used a railing system.. Widewing and BodhiArm can provide more info on this).
IMO, if HTC willing, the P-38L should not deploy flaps above 200mph, but if they are deployed they should not autoretract.
Instead, make them seriously buffet the plane when they are deployed 50 mph above their historic speeds (aka, real 38s could deploy their flaps out to 250 mph with little or no issues), and RIP out at 100 mph above said speed.
That way you can have a 38L with 1 flap out with no issues out to 250 mph, from 250 to 300 it should shake the 38 so bad as to mimic compression, above 300 they should rip out.
2 flaps can be out from 180mph to 230mph with no probs, 230->280 have it shake like Fatty on a nudy bar, above 280 rip them out.
and so on.
And this is *required* imo, for the P-38, which is the one plane in the whole set which depends on its flaps for its combat performance.
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Good info,
I wasn't aware of that. I just assumed HTC had a valid reason for the auto-retract. I doubt that any WW2 planes actually had auto-retract flaps. Modern planes with this feature actually use computers and servos rather than windforce.
DJ229 - AIR MAFIA
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Originally posted by DAVENRINO
Good info,
I doubt that any WW2 planes actually had auto-retract flaps.
DJ229 - AIR MAFIA
Some WW2 planes had that feature. Don't know which American or Allied planes used them but I'm pretty sure some of the Axis planes had some sort of auto-retracting flap system. IIRC, the N1K2 was one of those planes.
Ack-Ack
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Ok been flying P38 last few days fun as hell turning inside niks and spits and knocking la7s out of the sky with ease. Last night just for the hell of it I decided to stay on a lone spits 6 as long as I could followed everyturn and roll before I killed him. Yet the next few sorties I cant outfly a friggen p47d11? Does a P47d11 with a missing left flap actually hold advantage over p38 in 200mph rolling scissors?
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you gotta show me how you handle n1ks then. I just HO them and dive away, those UFO flight model dweebrides are not worth the aggravation.
P-47s, ANY p47, is really dangerous in the first set of sciscors, and its because of its awesome rudder control. Its like a 109 really, the P38's rudder is half as good as those 2 planes, so the real trick is to use the 38's superior drag to not let the p47/109 sciscor behind you. In short, put them flaps out and cut the engine, pull up hard as you can with as much rudder as you can and always go for "lead persuit" (aka your nose in front of enemy plane, so you pull more G's than he does).
I believe I shot you down in my P-51D last night pooh, if that was you, you doing great! With me having massive E advantage you managed to almost get me on the zoom up.. i saw the tracers fly by me. You wouldve gotten me if you had sprayed a bit more, remember you have 2000 rnds of luving in that kite :)
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Thanks everyone for even more great tips. Unfortunately, on Thursday morning lightning killed my computer, scanner, and joystick. My insurance will cover the repair/replacement, but it still sucks for the time being.
I am going to try to salvage the hard drive so hopefully all my settings will not be lost.
I have a MS sidewinder precision pro. Anyone have any tips on a new stick? I like twisty rudder controls :).
See you all in the air.
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Z0mBe
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Zombe that what I use and I love it. if you would like I can send you my whole settings folder. and my sights folder. See if you like them and all my head pos. and my sights,convergances. Only thing is my key mapping is changed a tad bit, so I could use diff. engines other than apply power to both. On my stick I have flaps up and down, trim up and down,dive break and wep, primary and secondary guns. If would like my settings I will send them.
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Same Stick here mia...
Could you send me a copy of the sights and Head positions ?
Thanks
BOOT@327th.com
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Boot can you or mia send me your profile please?
e-mail (rgal_5@yahoo.com)
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I sent them to both of you. Sorry took so long
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Thanks OIO
Yeah got to get used to ammo count been spraying more last few days, after I realized after 5 A2A kills and 2 vulches I still had 1000 mgs and 43 cannon rounds left.
This thing is fun as hell to fly you can fight with anything, looping with spits and stuff having full control while watching the stick yanker spit struggle to keep his nose up before you kill him. Only bad part is I seem to be a con magnet in it.
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I have read in other threads and in talking with other P-38 fans in the MA... Some 38 jocks have said they fly with the light ammo load because it gives the 38 a lighter nose... I personally take and need every bullet I can get.. ;)
Do any of you guys notice any handling difference with the lighter ammo load ?
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Originally posted by BOOT
Do any of you guys notice any handling difference with the lighter ammo load ?
If there is an advantage of taking the lighter ammo load, I haven't seen it in the P-38. From my experience in flying the thing in AH, it doesn't make the P-38 more maneuverable. You're better off taking the 2000 rounds loadout, you can never have too much ammo.
Ack-Ack