Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Iron Chef on April 16, 2003, 07:20:16 PM
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During this week many millions of people remember the death of one Man. It took place almost two thousand years ago. Only small groups witnessed His death, but since He died, His Name and what happened so long ago has been heralded throughout the world. Millions are living in every continent who hear and know that Name. The story of His Life and the death He died has been translated into hundreds of languages and is now read by the different races which compose humanity.
His Name is "Jesus Christ," or as His contemporaries called Him – Jesus of Nazareth. We are in possession of the records of portions of the Life He lived on earth, and these records, the four Gospels, are historically fully trustworthy. Infidels of every description have tried to discredit them. They stand firm and unshaken. They reveal Him as the outstanding figure of history. He towers above the rest of humanity. No one like Him before and none after.
He was a wonderful Teacher. One of His followers, who listened to Him, said: "Thou hast the Words of eternal life." Great philosophers and religious leaders who lived before He was on earth also taught. They gave ethical precepts; they tried to explain the enigma of human existence and destiny, and uttered their speculations as to a higher being and the unseen. But none ever spoke words as He spoke; words of Life and Words of Wisdom, words which reveal God, His character, His love, His grace, His Fatherhood. He made known the unknown; He flashed forth the unseen and the future. So deep are all His teachings that they transcend our human thinking, and yet so simple that a child can understand them.
The Life He lived was perfect. There was no flaw in His character. He exhibited a moral glory before which the lives of the best of men pale into significance. His moral glory is dazzling. It possesses a strange attracting power. In one word - He was a perfect, a holy, a sinless Being.
Furthermore, during the three years of public ministry He displayed astonishing power. He healed all manner of diseases instantaneously by His word. His "I will" cleansed the leper; the maimed were made whole. He commanded the demons to leave their prey, and the raving maniacs were delivered and became rational beings, taking their places at His feet. He raised the dead not once but several times. The wind and the waves had to obey His voice. They were hushed by His majestic, "Peace! Be still!"
Who was this wonderful man? That He was only a man is impossible. The Gospels tell us that He is the God-Man, God Himself manifest in the flesh. Such also is His self-witness. He spoke constantly of the fact that He came from above, came as the sent-One by the Father. He claimed equality with God, to work the same works, and to have the same power as He has. He also claimed worship for Himself. He said: "Before Abraham was, I am." He is the preexisting One, Who was before all things. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." He is Creator, for "All things were made by Him." We listen again to His voice - "I and the Father are one"; "Whosoever seeth Me seeth the Father."
And this wonderful Man, that unique Being, the God-Man died. Before He ever died He predicted the manner of His death; He knew beforehand all the torture, the suffering, the shame which would be heaped upon Him. He knew they would nail Him to a Cross. But why did He die?
Why do human beings die? Why is it that human life is filled with pain, sickness, affliction, sorrow and finally there looms up the grave and the death of the body? Was this the eternal purpose of a loving Creator Who created a class of beings for His own pleasure and fellowship? No! We cannot believe this. Nor does the Bible teach it. Death is in the world on account of sin. Men die because they have sinned. "The wages of sin is death." If there were no sin there would be no death.
And this Man never sinned. He was not innocent but holy. No wrong word ever passed His gracious lips; no evil, unclean thought ever entered His mind. No guile was found in His mouth. He did not need to repent, nor to pray: "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." His challenge was: "Who of you can convince Me of sin?" It was never met. He did not sin for He had no sin; the fallen nature of man was not His nature. He was God in the form of Man and God cannot sin.
Why then did He die? Did death have a claim on His body? I turn to Death and ask - "O Death! Look at that Man, that holy Man, that sinless Man! Tell me, O Death, canst thou touch Him? Is He to be thy prey?" And Death answers – "No!"
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His death was attempted a number of times. Three times the effort was made to stone Him. No stone ever struck Him; once they tried to cast Him down a precipice. He disappeared out of their midst. The ship in which He was asleep filled with water. He was undisturbed, for that ship could never sink. Death had no power over Him. He was sinless and therefore deathless. Yet, He died that cruel death by crucifixion. Why then did He die? Did He die as a martyr? Such is the answer that we hear today from thousands of religious teachers. He died on account of the teachings He gave; His was the martyr's death. The same men also tell us that His body remained in the grave; that over that grave it must be written: "Dust to dust and ashes to ashes." If that were true, we could charge God with being an unrighteous Being. We could impeach the throne of righteousness.
But how did the martyrs die? Hear them singing their hymns of praise! See them facing heroically the lions, the tigers, the torture and the stake. They counted it honor and glory to lay down their lives. They rejoiced as cruel death approached.
But listen to the Lord Jesus, the holy One, the sinless One, when death loomed up before Him. Listen – "Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save Me from this hour." See Him in Gethsemane. Hear that bitter wail–"Father, if Thou be willing, remove this cup from Me: nevertheless not My will, but Thine, be done." Behold His agony – "His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." Why this trembling, why this soul agony, why this terror? Was it produced by the fear of physical death? Was the Lord Jesus Christ a coward" Certainly not!
But this agony, this soul trouble, as He looked toward the Cross, answers the question: "Why did Christ die?" He did not die, as we die, because He had sinned, but He died for our sins, the Just for the unjust. He died as the Lamb of God, the holy, spotless Lamb of God, to take away the sin of the world. He knew, going to that Cross, there would come, while hanging there, three hours during which the sun would hide his face, and in that awful darkness He Who knew no sin would be made sin. Sin, that horrible, hateful thing, would be put then upon Him, not by man, but by God Himself. What it meant - "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" is only known to Him. We cannot understand it, but we can believe it and worship.
And when that sin-bearing, that sin-atoning Work was done, then no one took His Life from Him - He gave that Life. And that He yielded it is evidenced by that marvelous, victorious shout–"'It is finished!"
Christ died for our sins! Here is our salvation; here is our peace; here is our hope of eternal glory! Christ crucified is still for the Jew the stumbling-block – , for the Greek, the Gentile world with its boasted culture, learning and progress, it is foolishness. But to all who believe God, who believe His Word, Christ, the Christ Who died for our sins, is the Wisdom and the Power of God. The Wisdom of God, for He displays in the sacrificial death of His Son His infinite wisdom. The world by wisdom did not know God. It could not find its way back to God. The wisdom of the world could not bridge the gulf between the holy God and unholy, lost humanity. Then God stepped in and laid across that gulf a Cross and upon that Cross His Son.
And the Christ Who died for our sins, Who took sin upon Himself, Who satisfied God's righteousness, is the Power of God. The sin-bearing Work of the Lord Jesus Christ gives God power to save man from the horrible pit of sin, to cleanse and forgive him, as he grasps in faith the pierced hand of the Lord Jesus, and then that power lifts him out of his lost condition into the glorious place of a child of God.
Friend, do you believe that Christ died for your sins? Do you believe He bore your sins in His own body on the tree? Have you looked to that Cross on which the Prince of Glory died, and looking there, have said in faith: "He loved me, He gave Himself for me"? Have you cast yourself upon Him and accepted Him? Have you done what is written - "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"? Then you are saved.
Then rejoice and be glad. Rejoice! For you are acquitted of all your guilt. Rejoice! For Jesus paid it all. Rejoice! You are born again and have become a true child of God by faith in Jesus Christ. Rejoice! You are accepted in the Beloved One. Rejoice! You have passed from death unto Life. Rejoice! God is your loving Father. Rejoice! There is no condemnation. Rejoice! You are an heir of God and fellow-heir with Christ, and the Father's House will be your eternal and glorious Home.
But oh! Remember it again, the price He paid to make this possible. Look once more to that Cross and see how He was smitten and afflicted of God as your Substitute. What is your answer to His sacrificial love? How often Christians sing it in sacred song, and how little they practice it
"Were the whole realm of nature mine,
‘Twould be a present far too small;
Love so amazing, so divine
Demands my soul, my life, my all.
Only then can we enjoy fully our blood-bought redemption when we live for Him, Who died for us.
And you who never have believed that Christ died for your sins and have never accepted Him – you, who trust in your own works, your own righteousness, which in the sight of God are nothing but filthy rags – you who reject His sin-bearing, His finished Work, let me say to you there is but one Way to God – the Way of the Cross. He who died for our sins is that Way, and there never can be any other way. "No man cometh to the Father, but by Me" is an eternal, never-changing Truth. The greater part of the religious world rejects that Truth. It puts into its place another Gospel. Instead of preaching "Christ crucified" they speak of the leadership of Jesus and claim that the teachings of Jesus, practically applied, will save the world.
That is a delusion! And because the religious world turns away from the Cross of Christ, from the true heart of Christianity – that Christ died for our sins, that salvation for a lost world is offered and found alone beneath the Cross of Jesus – the night of sin becomes darker, and the manifestation of the power of darkness becomes greater, till an apostate Christendom worships the coming "Man of Sin," whose shadow lengthens in our day.
O friend without Christ–take the Way of the Cross this very moment! Beneath that Cross, and there alone, you can have peace with God, righteousness and glory.
And that Christ Who died for your sins loves you. He wants you! He is now waiting for you. He will welcome you, for He still assures you – "Whosoever cometh unto Me I will in no wise cast out." Repeat it now, and do it
"Just as I am – without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
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Just shows you that good PR goes a long way.
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Why did Christ Die?
As quite a few others, he revolted against the occupiers and their puppet local government. He failed.
But those disciples sure knew how to do bussiness.
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Originally posted by Iron Chef
His Name is "Jesus Christ," or as His contemporaries called Him – Jesus of Nazareth. We are in possession of the records of portions of the Life He lived on earth, and these records, the four Gospels, are historically fully trustworthy. Infidels of every description have tried to discredit them. They stand firm and unshaken. They reveal Him as the outstanding figure of history. He towers above the rest of humanity. No one like Him before and none after.
Hmmmm, nor can the non-infidel occult followers prove they are true either.
But since you only have 2 posts here both relating to this thread and got your name from a crappy TV cooking show, this post obviously touches me deep in my heart.
S! Jebus!
-SW
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And the masses cry out in protest! So goes the virtual re-enactment of the crucifixion. :D
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Lack of adequate legal representation?
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His was black?
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He was diddlin' with another's sheep.
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I think he died so that sophomoric prose could come into existence.
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He made an account just to write that?
Gotta be troll bait. I don't get it.
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Originally posted by Martlet
He made an account just to write that?
Gotta be troll bait. I don't get it.
think he's doing his seasonal witnessin ...
the one about throwing pearls to swine comes to mind ...
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Originally posted by Eagler
think he's doing his seasonal witnessin ...
the one about throwing pearls to swine comes to mind ...
Well, with the posts lately, he sure picked the right forum.
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but will timmy go to heaven?
or hell?
timmy is handicapped, and can't talk.
right timmy?
"TIMMAAY!"
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Is this Aces High or Born Again Aces High? I prefer my religion in a building with a large cross, administered by a person who actually has been to Seminary.
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LMAO Hangtime, you almost got me suspended at work, I burst out laughing at that one.
TIMMMAH!!!
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Why did he die?
Because he was nailed to a cross and stabbed by a Roman.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Why did he die?
Because he was nailed to a cross and stabbed by a Roman.
That's "how", goof. :p
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Why did he die?
Because he was nailed to a cross and stabbed by a Roman.
LIBERATE ROME!!!
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Wasn't Rome's fault. *ShruG*
(countdown to: "Liberate Israel" ..... 10 .... 9 .... 8 ..... 7 ......)
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LIBERATE ISRAEL!!!!11
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Originally posted by Arlo
That's "how", goof. :p
Sorry, guess I'm watchin' too much CSI.
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Tell ya what, go ask a preacher, minister, vicar, elder, whatever.....what the "plan of salvation" is.
I'll cya in about 3 months when they've finished explaining......
(http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/extern/640697.jpg)
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lol there's so much trawl in that post I wouldn't know where to begin!
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Originally posted by Dowding
lol there's so much trawl in that post I wouldn't know where to begin!
holy crap, you agreed with me on something.
must be drunk.
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WHAT??? He's dead?? :confused:
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Originally posted by Iron Chef
O Lamb of God, I come, I come!
Pervert.
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Insecure, every last one of you! Where's dRipsnort when you need him?!
SOB
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I'd rather be a swine unimpressed by pearls, than an ostentatious pig fond of glittery jewelry.
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Well, what happened to 'im happened a lot to dissidents during that time.
*I* will take care of my sins No one else can. EOF.
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Originally posted by SOB
Insecure, every last one of you! Where's dRipsnort when you need him?!
SOB
Had they started their own thread bashing anyones belief, well, then, yes. You're quite correct. :D
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One thing I must say:
The message of love in JC words were something amaizing and deserve a big
For the rest of the comments, ROTFLMAO!!
:)
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Sheepel, oops I mean people, why do you let some childrens book writen by crazy old men thousands of years ago have so much control over your life? Yes the moral of the story is a very improtant lesson but believing there is such a thing as god is like believing there is a cat in the hat...
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All humans die, it's what we do most consistantly :)
er, for every human that was born there is one that died.
I'm smart and my IQ is sorta high.
take care.
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More importantly..why did Elvis die? or did he?
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He had to die on the cross, cause aparently they couldn't get the bulldozer started....
after all...what have the romans ever done for us?
Tronsky
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my IQ is high......will I die?
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why did Christ die?
the medical answer is:
Lack of Oxygen to the brain.
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Originally posted by NUKE
my IQ is high......will I die?
LOL question isnt if, but when
be sure you will :D
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Originally posted by hawk220
why did Christ die?
the medical answer is:
Lack of Oxygen to the brain.
I'll go on the limb.
He died to save the world.
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"How's my evangelizing? Call 1-800-SALVATION"
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That's of course if you BELIEVE that he was the 'son' of god.
Maybe he was just a clever preacher or prophet with a few tricks up his sleve that pissed off the Jewish leaders because he was taking away their influence and their power (more the case).
Still, quite an impressive man to create such a strong following over 2000 years after his death that has shaped how religion is practiced on our planet.
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Originally posted by rpm371
I prefer my religion in a building with a large cross, administered by a person who actually has been to Seminary.
I'm soooo tempted to respond to this....but I will resist.
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Thanks for your Easter message, IC. Some people object to being reminded or their own fallibility. Others simply accept that God's second greatest gift (after His only begotten son) was/is our free agency, and that often we fail to use it wisely. Belated Happy Easter to all. God bless.
Sabre
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Others simply accept that God's second greatest gift
so what are god's gifts?
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Infidels of every description have tried to discredit them.
Hey, I that rings a bell... Dowding, can I borrow your avatar for a couple minutes?
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“What are God’s gifts?” A reasonable question, Hawk. I’ve already named two: Jesus Christ and human free agency (i.e. the right to choose our own actions). Another is life itself, a physical body and the opportunity to experience life. Then there’s Creation; the sum total of all there is. Finally, there is the gift of our basic rights as humans. I offer this particularly important phrase in support: “…that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among them of which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Note that the Founding Fathers of the USA didn’t believe these rights came from government, but rather that they were divine in nature. Government, they believed, exists to protect those rights, not to create or bestow them.
Sabre
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If god is all knowing and knows what you are going to do, how can you "choose" to do something other than what he knows you are going to do?
Further, if God is all-powerful, then he could make us and the world he put us in any way he wanted. If he also knows the result beforehand, how can I be blamed for something he made me do?
Here's a teaser: If god is all-powerful, can he make a rock that is so large he can't lift it?
Also, is something right because god says it's right or because god knows it's right. If it's only right because god says it's right, then god is arbitrary and hardly a moral entity. If it's right because he knows it's right, god is not necessary for right and therefore superfluous.
Also Sabre, I hate to burst your founding father's buble, but most wer Deists. Payne and Jefferson were most likely atheists. Revolutionary war was fought for money, not religious freedom. But it's hard to stir up the masses when you tell them you want them to fight and die because you think you can make more money without Brittish control on your trade. Much easier to make it into some kind of holy war.
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is something right because god says it's right or because god knows it's right. If it's only right because god says it's right, then god is arbitrary and hardly a moral entity. If it's right because he knows it's right, god is not necessary for right and therefore superfluous.
hmmmm interesting
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If god is all knowing and knows what you are going to do, how can you "choose" to do something other than what he knows you are going to do?
The fact that He knows your heart in no way changes that fact that it was your choice. He simply allows you to make that choice, even though He knows what it will be. The very fact that He could make us do his bidding, but doesn’t is the essence of free agency. That power, to know our hearts, is what allows Him to sit in judgment against us.
Further, if God is all-powerful, then he could make us and the world he put us in any way he wanted. If he also knows the result beforehand, how can I be blamed for something he made me do?
Such an argument as yours could be used to justify any crime. “God let me do it, so how can I be blamed.” Such an argument won’t work in a court of law, and won’t work at the seat of judgment, either.
Here's a teaser: If god is all-powerful, can he make a rock that is so large he can't lift it?
As you choose to get all extestential on us, I’ll respond in kind. I believe He could, but my simple, flawed human mind is probably unable to comprehend how:).
Also, is something right because god says it's right or because god knows it's right. If it's only right because god says it's right, then god is arbitrary and hardly a moral entity. If it's right because he knows it's right, god is not necessary for right and therefore superfluous.
Hardly arbitrary. Rather, He is wise and consistent. He knows that for people to get along…no, for us to flourish and reach our full potential, there has to be a set of rules. These rules (codified in the Ten Commandments) recognize human nature, and are designed to help us make decisions that benefit our fellow man.
Also Sabre, I hate to burst your founding father's buble, but most wer Deists. Payne and Jefferson were most likely atheists. Revolutionary war was fought for money, not religious freedom. But it's hard to stir up the masses when you tell them you want them to fight and die because you think you can make more money without Brittish control on your trade. Much easier to make it into some kind of holy war.
Nice try, but you ignore certain aspects of history here, and in so doing cheapen what that struggle was all about. First, the Revolutionary War was not fought over money. It was fought for freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and yes, even (but not solely or even primarily) economic freedom. Many people have come to the United States to escape poverty, but I’d wager what they and most others really wanted was freedom. The Declaration of Independence was written to sum up all the reasons why these former British colonies could no longer suffer the burden of an Empire that chose to treat them as second-class citizens. That included political oppression, religious oppression, as well as financial oppression.
Sabre
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Sabre,
"The fact that He knows your heart in no way changes that fact that it was your choice. He simply allows you to make that choice, even though He knows what it will be. The very fact that He could make us do his bidding, but doesn’t is the essence of free agency. That power, to know our hearts, is what allows Him to sit in judgment against us."
I think you are missing the point. The question points out the logical inconsistency and the mutual exclusivity of the two. Ie, you cannot have both omniscience and freedom of choice. All your answer does is make a simplistic statement of belief. It does not answer the question, "How is this possible?" If he knows, not has a real good hunch, but knows what your choice will be, how can you say that you have the power to choose otherwise?
"Such an argument as yours could be used to justify any crime. “God let me do it, so how can I be blamed.” Such an argument won’t work in a court of law, and won’t work at the seat of judgment, either."
My argument is not some attempt to use Christianity in some attempt a total hedonism. I am not trying to justify crime. I am merely pointing out that it is inconsistent to argue that an entity that is omnipotent and omniscient could hold an entity that it produces responsible for its actions. This being could make you anyway it wanted, and put you in any enviroment it wanted and further knows exactly what your reaction to the enviroment will be long before he ever makes you. It's all kind of pointless, don't you think?
"As you choose to get all extestential on us, I’ll respond in kind. I believe He could, but my simple, flawed human mind is probably unable to comprehend how."
My question is not existential in nature. Rather it is based in pure logic, boolean circles if you will. If you want existentialist crap, try Sarte. And if you believe he could, what logical argument do you propose to show it is possible. If you cannot, you simply choose to believe something even though it is clearly irrational because doing so jives with one of your centrally held beliefs.
"Hardly arbitrary. Rather, He is wise and consistent. He knows that for people to get along…no, for us to flourish and reach our full potential, there has to be a set of rules. These rules (codified in the Ten Commandments) recognize human nature, and are designed to help us make decisions that benefit our fellow man."
Doing something simply because you can is basically the definition of arbitrary behavior. Also, non-christian cultures have come up with basically the same mores on their own with no help from Moses. See civil law of ancient Rome. So once again, you have evaded the real question. In regard to ethics, is god merely arbitrary or unnecessary?
"Nice try, but you ignore certain aspects of history here, and in so doing cheapen what that struggle was all about. First, the Revolutionary War was not fought over money. It was fought for freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and yes, even (but not solely or even primarily) economic freedom. Many people have come to the United States to escape poverty, but I’d wager what they and most others really wanted was freedom. The Declaration of Independence was written to sum up all the reasons why these former British colonies could no longer suffer the burden of an Empire that chose to treat them as second-class citizens. That included political oppression, religious oppression, as well as financial oppression."
To get an accurate assessment of the why in history, you have to dig a little deeper than just the surface. Looking only at what the results are and simply stating an opinion that they were primary is not acceptable. Look at who started the war and what they had to gain. The war was primarily one for the nothern trading and manufacturing colonies. You will notice that Brittish efforts in the war sought to split the colonies along these lines. The southern colonies were reluctant to join. This was the primary reason Washington was put in charge, he was a Virginian and a southerner. The agricultural based south did not gain much from independence from England. As a matter of fact, it hurt them and caused the Civil War, which was also fought over money. Specifically, the tarriffs invoked by a Congress that was dominated by Northern industrial economies hurt the south causing that eventual split. And, if you will read some of the period writings by Jefferson, he forsaw the problem and predicted the civil war.
I think the central question you have to ask is, do I believe this because it makes sense, or do I believe it because it makes me feel better. I choose logic.
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I sense contempt in your response. If that is due to the impression that my own comments were meant to ridicule you, such was not my intent. Rather than address each of your counter points, I'll simply concede that we agree to disagree. It will save me a lot of typing. In the end, it does in deed come down to faith, and an acknowledgement that we don't have all the answers, and some of the answer we have don't always make sense, due to our own lack of perfect knowledge. To quote a certain vulcan, "Logic is not the end of wisdom; it is the beginning."
As for the American War of Independance, that discussion really deserves a thread of it's own. However, all the various reasons for it can still be summed up as a quest for Freedom, which according to the words written by the Founding Fathers is a divine gift. If you look at how most of the people who signed the Declaration ended up, it's rather hard to imagine that it was mere financial greed that drove them. They all new the great risks they took by signing it, and most paid a heavy price to do so.
One final point before I leave this discussion. You mentioned that God creating us then putting us in a situation with a foregone conclusion would be kind of pointless. It would be, if there were no reason for us to live, other than to die. I can look at my four children and know (or at least be pretty sure) of some of the mistakes they'll make. I can tell them those mistakes ahead of time, even stop them from making them. They won't learn anything that way. We're here to learn and grow. A life with no higher purpose, with nothing to work for and hope for when it is done...such a life would indeed be pointless.
Respectfully,
Sabre
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Sabre,
Certainly nothing personal is meant in any of my comments, I simply like to argue. You are entitled to your opinion and I do not want to ridicule you for it. I mean no offense, but love discussion.
It is indeed a question of faith vs. knowledge. You have your faith and I would not rob you of it. I simply chose a different path.
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I think you are missing the point. The question points out the logical inconsistency and the mutual exclusivity of the two. Ie, you cannot have both omniscience and freedom of choice
You don't make sense
A being could have total knowledge , yet allow a lesser being to make it's own choices, knowing ( pre-determining even) which choices are right and which choices are wrong.
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No, omniscient implies knowing what those choices will be before they are made, not just once the choices are made if they are wrong or right.
In other words every "decision" you make would have to have been already decided, otherwise it could not be known. You're suddenly back to a greek tragedy.
Am I going to stop and get gas tomorrow? Only God knows? If he knows, then I don't really have a choice. It is already decided.
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Originally posted by Eagler
think he's doing his seasonal witnessin ...
the one about throwing pearls to swine comes to mind ...
How true
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Originally posted by Fatty
No, omniscient implies knowing what those choices will be before they are made, not just once the choices are made if they are wrong or right.
In other words every "decision" you make would have to have been already decided, otherwise it could not be known. You're suddenly back to a greek tragedy.
Am I going to stop and get gas tomorrow? Only God knows? If he knows, then I don't really have a choice. It is already decided.
Knowing the choices before they are made isn't the same as forcing someone to make a choice.
If I were all knowing and told you the speed limit was 55 and that going faster than 55 wrong, yet I knew that you ( by your choice, not being forced) were going to break the speed limit, I have not decided for you, I just know what you are going to decide.
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If you know and created everything that led to the circumstances my decision was based on, you most certainly did.
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Originally posted by Fatty
If you know and created everything that led to the circumstances my decision was based on, you most certainly did.
What if I created you and gave you a choice and free will regardless of circumstances presented to you?
By definition, if you make a decision, then you acted on your free will
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If it was in such a controlled environment that even under "free will" all choices were predetermined, I would laugh at you (but of course you would have known that).
If you relinquished enough control in this petri dish of yours to allow unknown factors to play (like free will), you would no longer be omniscient.
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Originally posted by Fatty
Then you would no longer be omiscient.
omiscient means all knowing. If I know all your acts yet do not stand in your way or inhibit your acts.....I am still omiscient
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Originally posted by Fatty
If it was in such a controlled environment that even under "free will" all choices were predetermined, I would laugh at you (but of course you would have known that).
If you relinquished enough control in this petri dish of yours to allow unknown factors to play (like free will), you would no longer be omniscient.
I hope I can repsond b4 you edit your post again.
Can you not understand the difference between knowing an outcome and pre-determining one?
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If you orchistrated the choices presented and how they were presented you did.
God did create the earth and everything on it, and wasn't he all knowning then too? That would include my genetic makeup and how the synapses fire when making my decisions.
These would have to have been known from creation, and done with this in mind.
Or, on the other hand, was it evolution?
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Originally posted by Fatty
If you orchistrated the choices presented and how they were presented you did.
God did create the earth and everything on it, and wasn't he all knowning then too? That would include my genetic makeup and how the synapses fire when making my decisions.
These would have to have been known from creation, and done with this in mind.
Or, on the other hand, was it evolution?
If a choice orchistrated? ( you are saying controlled b.t.w.) then it is not a choice. You use poor logic.
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You almost have it Nuke.
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Originally posted by Fatty
You almost have it Nuke.
have what?
You don't get it.
You have a free will......correct?
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There was only one thing I really liked about the communist dictatorships..
All religions were banned.
They might have been poor, but at least they were saved from reading threads like this, grown up men arguing childishly about issues that can't really be argued about since they either don't exist or can't be proven.
Blows my mind, really.
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Well, there's the rub. I believe I do.
On the other hand, an unknown (or known) deity started life either in his image or even on a grander scale through evolution taking it less literally. This deity was omniscient, and knew exactly when it planted its first cell how it would evolve, not only to myself, but everything existing along with myself. It would have known exactly what decisions would face me, and would know the exact neural makeup would be trying to sort those decisions.
When making that first cell, or Adam, an omniscient being would have known how exactly a different makeup would have made the speed limit 95, or 105, and what the penalties for that would be. It would know and make creative decisions based on that outcome my inclination to speed. In other words, yes, a strictly controlled environment.
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Why does God "test" people if he already knows the outcome? Moses, the Israelites, Job. OK.. with Job it was "allowing him to be tested by satan"... but still... wasn't that a loaded scenario if he already knew what was going to happen? Does God really have anything to prove to Satan? Doesn't God only allow scenarios where he knows the outcome... the old "Dogma" bit?
Dunno... the free will vs omniscience/omnipotence debate is not nearly convincing enough from the Christian POV.
MiniD
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If we all came from Adam and Eve,
then why arent we all inbreds? ;)
I dont get people who need gods. Science has proven that we come from monkeys, and yet they still believe in a god that created us in is image, which begs the question:
Is god a monkey? :D
If gods knows all, then he knows what we will do.
Which means everything as allready been written.
Then how can we claim free will?
Its like one big movie, scripted by god.
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Originally posted by Imp
If we all came from Adam and Eve, then why arent we all inbreds?
I dont get people who need gods. Science has proven that we come from monkeys, a
which brings up the question, what happened to the monkeys?
They slo? They just liked bananas to much to evolve?
I will say that reading these BBs is a good case for peeps coming from monkeys.
But I just dont buy the fast monkey theory.
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There are already Chimpanzee groups that use multiple tools to prepare food / groom etc.
Give them a few hundred thousand years and they might just be using fire.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
which brings up the question, what happened to the monkeys?
They slo? They just liked bananas to much to evolve?
I will say that reading these BBs is a good case for peeps coming from monkeys.
But I just dont buy the fast monkey theory.
Fast monkey theory?
It took us thousands of years to evolve.
There wasnt anything fast about it. ;)
Look at skeletons from every period one after the other, you will see small changes after small changes. After awhile you get us.
Of course some changes didnt work very well, which lead to extinction.
Evolution is just an extreme case of survival of the fittest. Well adapted individuals thrive while badly adapted individuals die.
The one that survive give there good genes to their children.
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Originally posted by Imp
Fast monkey theory?
It took us thousands of years to evolve.
There wasnt anything fast about it. ;)
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No, the fast monkeys are the people now, the slow monkeys are still monkeys.... Go figure ;)