Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ike 2K# on April 16, 2003, 10:16:35 PM
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According from pravda.ru
Russian Weapons Make All Countries Feel Safe ( is that true?)
04/15/2003 21:19
This year might be a year of record sales for the Russian defense industry
It became obvious after Iraq ingloriously surrendered to coalition forces of the USA and Great Britain: no country could feel safe without nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. Nuclear, or any other kinds of the weapons of mass destruction can not serve the 100 percent security guarantee either. However, if an arsenal of a state is capable of causing considerable damage to a potential aggressor, the latter will at least have to think twice before attacking. Apparently, the American aggression and the imperial ambition of the States pushed the world towards the proliferation of nuclear weapons and other kinds of arms. There is nothing good about it, although one has to get the maximum advantage of current circumstances anyway.
This way or other, but the military inspiration of the American administration has made so-called Third World countries think of the arms race and of the modernization of their armies. Weapons are supposed to be purchased somewhere. As it is well known, Americans sell only outdated models of their arms. In addition to that, they do not sell them to everyone. That is why, a lot of potential customers pay attention to Russian firms.
Russian Defense Minister Sergey Ivanov happily stated during his visit to South Korea that a number of addresses to the Russian Defense Ministry pertaining to deliveries of up-to-date conventional arms had increased greatly. The minister did not fail to thank the American government for advertising cheap and reliable Russian arms for free. As they say it in Russia, there is a part of joke in every joke.
Experts are right when they say that the increase of the interest to Russian arms occurred on the moment when American officials accused Russia of illegal arms deliveries to Iraq. In the beginning of the Iraqi campaign, American military men claimed that American smart bombs are not that smart because the Iraqi army allegedly used up-to-date Russian defense technology.
The popularity of the Russian weapons has not suffered a bit on account of the fact that the Iraqi army lost the war. At the end of the day, the Soviet weapons - Kalashnikov guns, MiG planes and guided missiles - defeated the American army in Vietnam. However, the prosperity of the Soviet defense industry was over years ago.
So far, the committee for military and technical cooperation and the Russian defense giant Rosoboronexport say that they are commercial organizations, so they only understand the language of commerce. It was then added that there were no new contracts concluded with them. Nevertheless, specialists of the Russian defense industry say that the number of defense orders has been already increased 10 or 15 percent - approximately 700 million dollars of the extra profit. Russian experts that deal with the export of defense technology believe that one shall expect the growth of demand on mobile anti-tank missile complexes like Kornet-E, as well as grenade launchers and night vision devices. A lot of countries (especially Muslim ones) evince their interest in compact anti-aircraft complex Phoenix, which is capable of detecting and downing air targets. The demand on ABM systems and heavy armoured vehicles grows too.
The Russian defense industry does not produce any modern weapons in a large scale at the moment. New models of arms are produced only for foreign contracts. As a matter of fact, the whole Russian defense industry lives owing to the modernization of old Soviet arms, which used to be delivered to different countries years ago. The Russian leadership will need to have a lot of courage and political will to arm the whole world. Russia might help a lot of countries in this respect, if it is allowed to do so, of course. This freedom definitely comes along with the confrontation with the United States.
The American administration is deeply concerned about the growing export of Russian arms. In addition to that, American officials are not happy with the interest that a lot of countries (including America's so-called allies) evince in the opportunity to acquire Russian arms. It is worth mentioning here that members of the Saudi royal family have already released public statements like "we are buying Russian weapons whenever we want, and the USA is not an instructor to us." It is rather hard to imagine that American officials will quietly watch the Russian defense industry selling more and more modern weapons, especially to those countries, which might become another target for the USA to hit.
The American administration just keeps on creating the image of Russia as of a hypocritical friend, who secretly arms America's enemies. The Washington Post wrote in one of its articles that Putin was ruling the country, in which retired cunning generals shared their military knowledge with Saddam Hussein for money; in which scientists sold nuclear technologies to Iran; in which the army waged one of the dirtiest wars in the world - in Chechnya. As the newspaper wrote, America is not supposed to break all negotiations and relations with Russia. Yet, according to the Washington Post, America must keep a certain distance in its relations with Russia. The newspaper also recommended the American administration not to swear eternal friendship to Russian politicians, who continue arming America's enemies on the sly.
Anyway, the Russian defense industry managed to set a record in sales last year, without any interest that appeared as a result of the war in Iraq. In 2002 Russia exported arms in the sum of 4,8 billion dollars. Among defense contracts of the year 2002, experts single out a contract to sell Su-30 pursuit planes to India and China. China also purchased eight Russian diesel submarines and two torpedo-boat destroyers.
The Russian corporation MiG has reportedly managed to sell its pursuit planes to Sudan (America has serious claims about this country). Another breakthrough on the Asian market, as Rosoboronexport believes, is the deal of selling anti-aircraft missile complex Igla to Malaysia. The Russian defense industry has allegedly earned 4,3 billion dollars in the beginning of the current year. In other words, the current year might become a year of record sales in Russia, if the USA does not deal with the Russian military export seriously, of course.
Akhtyam Akhtyrov
Read the original in Russian: http://economics.pravda.ru/economics/2003/7/21/64/9757_Rusweapons.html (Translated by: Dmitry Sudakov)
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ok. lets nuke russia now.
before they start selling wooden wheels for thir export t55's.
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Aw man:mad:, my native country (the philippines) has only 15 F-5A freedom fighters to defend its 7000 island country. The Philippine government plans to aquire refurbished MiG-29 SMTs or SU-30 MKI in its defence inventory.
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Might be time for a UN arms blockade on our Red friends.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
Aw man:mad:, my native country (the philippines) has only 15 F-5A freedom fighters to defend its 7000 island country. The Philippine government plans to aquire refurbished MiG-29 SMTs or SU-30 MKI in its defence inventory.
See what happens when U.S. supported dictator puppets who stay loyal are ousted?
Amelda: It's the shoes!
If the Phillipines announces it is working on WMD then I bet it'll have tons of U.S. fighter support in no time at all.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Might be time for a UN arms blockade on our Red friends.
Oh, I dunno. I feel a lot safer knowing that potential adversaries of the United States will only field Russian equipment. Given its track record, how couldn't I?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by funkedup
Might be time for a UN arms blockade on our Red friends.
hell no.
Let them keep selling that crap. It makes them money, so they're out of our hair, and their weapons are garbage anyway.
I'd rather they have russian crap than our black market stuff.
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As it is well known, Americans sell only outdated models of their arms. In addition to that, they do not sell them to everyone. That is why, a lot of potential customers pay attention to Russian firms.
LOL :D What BS... Lets see!
(http://home.attbi.com/~filipm/owned2.jpg)
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Originally posted by Arlo
See what happens when U.S. supported dictator puppets who stay loyal are ousted?
Amelda: It's the shoes!
If the Phillipines announces it is working on WMD then I bet it'll have tons of U.S. fighter support in no time at all.
LOL!!!!!
Im 1000% sure that the philippines will work on WMD IF the New People's Army and the C. P. P (Communist Party of the Philippines) takes over that country.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
As it is well known, Americans sell only outdated models of their arms. In addition to that, they do not sell them to everyone. That is why, a lot of potential customers pay attention to Russian firms.
LOL :D What BS... Lets see!
*edit (picture deleted): an M1A2 is just standing with a charred iraqi tank next to it.
does US military sell their M1A2 tanks worldwide?
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
does US military sell their M1A2 tanks worldwide?
Not until we can produce something better ... I hope. I'm all for "top of the line" Sov ..... errr .... Russian hardware being sold while we hold off selling stuff we'd have a hard time defeating.
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We do sell M1A2. The Egyptians, Saudis and Kuwaitais all have M1A2s..
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Aw isnt this an example of americans selling outdated models of their arms?
(http://www.amarc.dk/billeder/Gallery/Others/F-5A_128.jpg)
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when did they purchase those F-5s? Plus the F-5 is no slouch. Also if your former country had the cash they could buy f15s, f16s whatever. Russian stuff is cheap (price), the Su would be a good purchase, mig29s on the other hand, have a piss poor maintenance record with countries.....India, Bangladesh to name a few. Think India was only getting 30 percent up and operational at one point and let the MiG bureau know they were unhappy. "Sues" seem to be managing much better.
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Grunherz that T-72 is hardly the latest weaponry Russia has to offer.. As the model says it's designed and built first at 1972.
Technology has advanced since then with leaps and bounds, even in russia. Nowadays they even have computers you know!
Poor Saddam was an easy target, his country was impoverished by several years of embargo. His army had no viable weapons to defend itself.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Grunherz that T-72 is hardly the latest weaponry Russia has to offer.. As the model says it's designed and built first at 1972.
Technology has advanced since then with leaps and bounds, even in russia. Nowadays they even have computers you know!
Poor Saddam was an easy target, his country was impoverished by several years of embargo. His army had no viable weapons to defend itself.
yeah, I saw his flats. Looked pretty impoverished to me.
Russia is in worse shape than Iraq was. They're still whining about the money Iraq owes them. That's chump change.
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is F-5 fighter series still new when upgraded?
(http://www.fav-club.com/images/BALANDA%20F-5%20Grupo%2012.JPG)
(http://www.scramble.nl/mil/2/rocaf/gfx/f5e-5272.jpg)
(http://www.rtaf.mi.th/gallery/fighter/f5/f5-0002.jpg)
(http://www.military.cz/usa/air/post_war/f5/pics/f5three.jpg)
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No Siaf.
The T72 debacle is clearly proof that russia cheapskates for the export market, hell even boroda had to say that export T72 are inferior after the pasting they recieved all around the world both to heavy armor and infantry anti tank weapons. And frankly even the old outdated USMC M60 had no trouble wiping out scores of Iraqi T72s in the first gulf war.
In fact I'd say the T72 family and the T64/T80 family is one of the most dissapointing and dangerous deathtraps in modern armored warfare. You hardly ever see a picture of any of them knocked out with the turret still on - one penetrating hit almost anywhere by almoast any sort of weaponm and the exposed uncompartmented ammo cooks off instantly - goodbye tank goodbye crew.
Everyon knows that thr russians are dishonest cheapskates when it comes to suppling foreigners - thats why pravda has to make some nice propaganda about it for home consumption especially after the embarassment of russian arms during this war. Hell we even knocked out one of their vaunted
GPS jammers witrh a JDAM.
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would portable anti-tank weapons be the future of russian arms instead of selling tanks?
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Martlett underestimating your enemy is one of the principle mistakes you can make in warfare.
Saddams golden toilet seats were built before the embargo - and even if they weren't it doesn't mean he could go around buying weaponry just as he wished.
In fact those couple weapons found during the attack were probably smuggled in with great trouble, using the scarce finances they could derive from 'oil for food' program - and illegal oil sales which took place regularly as witnessed by reporters.
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No Siaf.
Saddam spent billions building his palaces after the UN sanctions started - he even spent the UN oil for food money on his palaces and his army. No doubt about it, his palaces and personal luxury were more important to hi than the wellbeing and feeding of his people.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Martlett underestimating your enemy is one of the principle mistakes you can make in warfare.
Saddams golden toilet seats were built before the embargo - and even if they weren't it doesn't mean he could go around buying weaponry just as he wished.
In fact those couple weapons found during the attack were probably smuggled in with great trouble, using the scarce finances they could derive from 'oil for food' program - and illegal oil sales which took place regularly as witnessed by reporters.
odd, for all the lack of weapons Saddam has, the Iraqi people are really complaining about too many laying around.
3rd ID had found 56 weapons caches at last count. In their sector alone.
I do find it odd that someone from Angola is explaining to me the mistakes of warfare.
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He is not from angola, he is and "old friend" rom the BBS and now is some skeered little eurotrash troll...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
He is not from angola, he is and "old friend" rom the BBS and now is some skeered little eurotrash troll...
Ahhh, so he's lying about his where abouts.
Good thing I never believed a word he said anyway.
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if he' liberal then you can bet he is being dishonest. what choice does he have? angola has so much better "feel" to it.
lazs
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It's nice to see you go so defensive all of the sudden Martlett.. :D
There's a reason why I'm hiding my identity - a very practical one.
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:D
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
It's nice to see you go so defensive all of the sudden Martlett.. :D
There's a reason why I'm hiding my identity - a very practical one.
Defensive? What the heck have I got to be defensive about? You haven't made an intelligent post. Ever.
I know there is a practical reason you hide your identity. If people knew where you were from, they'd realize have the crap you post is based on no first hand knowledge and a huge bias.
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Ike, Your goverment couldve purchased F16s and F15s if they could afford them, which I seriously doubt.
My country, Colombia, does not buy those airplanes...first we cant afford them and second theres no need for them. Our Khafir fighters are updated regularly in their avionics and weapon systems, they may be no F15 or F16, but they do the job of killing Guerrillas and posing a serious threat in the air superiority role should any of our neighbors wish to play pokey.
Any country buying F15s and F16s or Mig29's in hopes of being able to defend itself against a major world power like the USA or Britain are sadly deluded, no matter how good or how many they buy, the bigger boys will always have more of them and with better stuff on them. So why burn money in stupidities?
Take Peru for example. In their "incident" with Ecuador in the 90's they almost came to war.. they had their fighters and helicopters shooting each other... Peru had F16's , Ecuador had POS fighters. In the biggest folly of all , Peru's F16's were grounded because there was not money for spare parts or the fuel to use them in combat, they were too expensive to use or risk using. How much more messed up can you get?
As far as Russian weapons go, you just have to look at what Russia itself is worried about.
The Iraqi army was built from the ground up as a mirror copy of the Russian military, with assistance from Russian military peeps. Their Air defenses, their training, weapons, etc.
And they got WIPED in less than a week by a force which was significantly smaller, on unfamiliar terrain and on the attack role.
Now the russian military is going to be having a MAJOR restructuring after this war. You just wait and see. They have realized that their policy of poorly trained, but numerous (conscript), centralized command,with mass-firepower based army design fails in front of a highly trained, precise and volunteer (motivated), SMALLER force.
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Originally posted by OIO
Ike, Your goverment couldve purchased F16s and F15s if they could afford them, which I seriously doubt.
My country, Colombia, does not buy those airplanes...first we cant afford them and second theres no need for them. Our Khafir fighters are updated regularly in their avionics and weapon systems, they may be no F15 or F16, but they do the job of killing Guerrillas and posing a serious threat in the air superiority role should any of our neighbors wish to play pokey.
I've spent a lot of time in Colombia. One of my favorite countries. Ahhhh, Cartegena, home of my first love.....
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Damnit you making me homesick. shaddap! :p
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Siaf, you seem to have forgotten that Iraq got a pretty sound bellybutton whuppin' when they were at their peak, before the sanctions were imposed. Russia either sold 'em antiquated hardware or it's junk. Either way, it just wasn't up to the competition.
Ike, that F5 was used up until only a few years ago by the USAF as the Aggressor Sq for training in Nevada. May still be for all I know. Like Drill said, it's no slouch. Even the F4 Phantom II was used by the USAF as Wild Weasels until only a few years ago. May still be for all I know.
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AKIron: Siaf, you seem to have forgotten that Iraq got a pretty sound bellybutton whuppin' when they were at their peak, before the sanctions were imposed. Russia either sold 'em antiquated hardware or it's junk. Either way, it just wasn't up to the competition.
So you think the fact that the hardware was manned by the poorely-trained and unmotivated iraqis and that iraqi troops were withdrawing without putting up a fight when they got bombed and strafed has nothing to do with the outcome?
It is curious what kind of occupation you are in if you formed the conclusion that the tools are more important than the capability of a user or what he is actually trying to do with those tools?
Some kind of extremely dumb do-nothing occupaton where what you are and how you do it is absolutely irrelevant? It's hard for me to imagine such a job.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
It is curious what kind of occupation you are in if you formed the conclusion that the tools are more important than the capability of a user or what he is actually trying to do with those tools?
Some kind of extremely dumb do-nothing occupaton where what you are and how you do it is absolutely irrelevant? It's hard for me to imagine such a job.
Awwww, come on now Miko, no need to get all ugly just because you embarrased yourself in another thread.
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Originally posted by OIO
Ike, Your goverment couldve purchased F16s and F15s if they could afford them, which I seriously doubt.
My country, Colombia, does not buy those airplanes...first we cant afford them and second theres no need for them. Our Khafir fighters are updated regularly in their avionics and weapon systems, they may be no F15 or F16, but they do the job of killing Guerrillas and posing a serious threat in the air superiority role should any of our neighbors wish to play pokey.
Any country buying F15s and F16s or Mig29's in hopes of being able to defend itself against a major world power like the USA or Britain are sadly deluded, no matter how good or how many they buy, the bigger boys will always have more of them and with better stuff on them. So why burn money in stupidities?
Take Peru for example. In their "incident" with Ecuador in the 90's they almost came to war.. they had their fighters and helicopters shooting each other... Peru had F16's , Ecuador had POS fighters. In the biggest folly of all , Peru's F16's were grounded because there was not money for spare parts or the fuel to use them in combat, they were too expensive to use or risk using. How much more messed up can you get?
As far as Russian weapons go, you just have to look at what Russia itself is worried about.
The Iraqi army was built from the ground up as a mirror copy of the Russian military, with assistance from Russian military peeps. Their Air defenses, their training, weapons, etc.
And they got WIPED in less than a week by a force which was significantly smaller, on unfamiliar terrain and on the attack role.
Now the russian military is going to be having a MAJOR restructuring after this war. You just wait and see. They have realized that their policy of poorly trained, but numerous (conscript), centralized command,with mass-firepower based army design fails in front of a highly trained, precise and volunteer (motivated), SMALLER force.
Damn, if the F-20 tigershark was built for foreign military sales (FMS), then the philippines, or other countries could have a fighter that has the F-16's performance with a maintenance cost of the F-5E fighter (F-5E's are pretty cheap and easy to maintain).
(http://www.squadron.com/old/f20/f20_5.jpg)
(http://www.squadron.com/old/f20/f20_1.jpg)
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AKIron: Awwww, come on now Miko, no need to get all ugly just because you embarrased yourself in another thread.
:) I was referring to an occupation I could not imagine, not you personally. Sorry for misunderstanding. If I wanted to call you an idiot, I woudl have done so, trust me.
And you are too early to boast of my supposed embarrasment in anotehr thread - or lying and expecting people would not check for themselves that your "proof" supported my point, not yours.
Major flop here. Definitely a dumb thing to present "proofs" without looking at them first or expecting others to be to lazy to do so.
miko
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Ah Miko, let's see, I posted that the US kicked the Iraqis bellybutton even when they greatly outnumbered the US I might add, and had not yet been subjected to debilitating sanctions. My conclusion; their equipment (mostly Russian made) was sorely inferior.
Now you come back with this:
"Some kind of extremely dumb do-nothing occupaton where what you are and how you do it is absolutely irrelevant? It's hard for me to imagine such a job."
Are you now saying this wasn't directed at me personnally? Who then was it directed at?
While you're explaining, please tell me how you know that the Iraqis, particularly the Republican Guard, was so poorly trained? Try to keep in mind that we're talking about the first round in '90.
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Take the T-90 for instance. That tank is and will be a force ona battlefield. Taken from experience in Afghanistan and other events surrounding its tanks they improved on it tremendously.
Or check these out very nice
CHIORNY ORIOL (BLACK EAGLE) Main Battle Tank
Or the T-95 very nice tanks :)
check this site out.
http://www.mw-line.at/mw_technology_products.html
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Originally posted by AGJV44_Rot 1
Take the T-90 for instance. That tank is and will be a force ona battlefield. Taken from experience in Afghanistan and other events surrounding its tanks they improved on it tremendously.
Or check these out very nice
CHIORNY ORIOL (BLACK EAGLE) Main Battle Tank
Or the T-95 very nice tanks :)
check this site out.
http://www.mw-line.at/mw_technology_products.html
YEP and the russians (or the ukrainians) are trying to sell these tanks around the world.
T-95 info/specs:
This tank is what was originally perceived in the West to be the perspective Russian MBT. It is either a hoax or a real conceptual prototype. In the latter case its relation to Nizhny Tagil design is unknown.
The design is unique in that it has a very small and extremely rounded auto-loader instead of a turret. The entire crew is situated in the hull, which is separated from the auto-loader by an armored bulkhead. Main gun rounds are placed in a circle around a loader and are delivered by a revolving transporter, fully automating the loading procedure. This scheme raises crew survivability to an incredible level.
Yet another major innovation attributed to this tank is a new anti-tank gun that has a larger caliber than the 2A46 series, 135 mm. This 135mm gun pops up occasionally since as early as the end of eighties when it was attributed to a mysterious T-86 MBT. Today it is more or less a certainty that there is no 135mm gun in existence. 2A46M is still in service, and accuracy and reliability upgrades and new ammo designs seem to bring it finally to the level of the powerful Rh-120 line of guns of Leopard, Abrams and Merkava. There are, however, indications of a 152mm tank gun being developed.
It is hard to tell how much in common does this MBT have with a real new tank being developed in Nizhny Tagil, but the main features of both vehicles are an unmanned gunpod, crew placement in the hull and a large-caliber maingun.
T-95 MBT
Turret layout
Weight: 50? metric tons
Crew: 3
Engine: 1000 hp diesel or 1250 hp gas-turbine
Max Road Speed: >75 km/h
Max X-country Speed: >48 km/h
Power/Weight: at least 24.0 hp/tn
Ground Pressure: 1.00? kg/sq.cm
Weapons
Main Weapon: 135mm smoothbore?!
Ammunition: 40? rounds
Ammunition Types: APFSDS, HEAT, HEF, ?
ATGM through 135mm: most likely 9M119M "Refleks" (Sniper-B) derivative
Auxiliary armament: UNKNOWN
Smoke Screens: Smoke Grenades, Smoke Discharger
Equipment
Rangefinder: Laser
Night Vision: Thermal Imager
Fire Control: Optical; Missile Guidance Capability
Jammers: Shtora-1? IR & SACLOS Jammer, Radar Jammer
Onboard Computer
Accuracy aids, Target recognition and acquisition,
HQ and units link, Global positioning
Active Protection System: Arena?
Front Armor (Turret): composite, very rounded
Front Armor (Hull): composite
3rd generation ERA
Side Armor (Turret): composite, very rounded
Side Armor (Hull): ?
3rd generation ERA
Rear Armor (Turret): composite, very rounded
Rear Armor (Hull): ?
Top Armor (Turret): ?
3rd generation ERA
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punt
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??????????????????????????????????????
define that word for me!
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I know there is a practical reason you hide your identity. If people knew where you were from, they'd realize have the crap you post is based on no first hand knowledge and a huge bias.
Martlett if that's not defensive posting, I don't know what is. Care to tell the rest of us what makes you create these wild assumptions?
The fact is that you don't know jack about who I am, where I come from nor where I get my information from. However I know who you are and where you get your information from, it's pretty obvious in your opinnions. :)
Reminds me a lot of the soviets standing behind the official party truth.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The fact is that you don't know jack about who I am, where I come from nor where I get my information from. However I know who you are and where you get your information from, it's pretty obvious in your opinnions. :)
Exactly. And due to your blatant misinformation, it is obvious you don't know Jack about the topics you speak on. It's quite apparent you have never left your country for an extended period, have no facts to base your opinion, and are hiding behind BBS anonymity to make up facts that support your slanted argument.
Hmmm, you must be Russian.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Hmmm, you must be Russian.
He comes off that way doesnt he? But I have a feeling he is either canadian or living in the USA.