Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Syzygyone on April 17, 2003, 11:58:07 AM
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Hmmm, let's see, now,
1) What is more important for getting Iraq back to the Iraqi people:
a) a museum filled with thousands of years old stuff, albeit culturally important stuff
or
b) infrastructure and systems necessary to get power, water and food to the people.
2) What is more important for the future of a free Iraq:
a) museum filled with thousands of years old stuff, albeit very important stuff
or
b) protection of the only industry that country has that can bring it enough money to pull it's oppressed masses out of the 15th century life style most of them lived in.
While regrettable, the loss of these artifacts will not hamper the redevelopment of Iraq. On the other hand, the loss of their oil industry, which can provide heretofore unheard of public wealth, would have spelled the death knell for that whole civilization. Now, the billions and billions Saddam spent on his gold plated toilets, can be used to provide schools, hospitals, etc. etc.
The right choice was made for the future of Iraq. It's now up to them to get a social structure back in place and get those artifacts back.
Oh wait...I know.... they can use some of those torture chambers in hospitals and schools to grill the information out of suspected museum robbers!
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Oil Ministry or Hospital... oil ministry or hospital...
Oil ministry or water treatment plant... oil ministry or power station...
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You never played Command and Conquer dowding?
You cant build no friggin hospitals, barracks, power plants, etc if you do not build the goddarned refinery first!
The spice must flow! ;)
Whoa... just read this and got a chill up my spine. C&C as an analogy for real life stuff.. lol!
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I always used to play as NOD. ;)
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Look how the artifacts and priceless works of art were stolen from France and other nations conquered by the Third Reich.
I would venture to guess their infrastructure was obliterated, when compared to the damage done to Iraq.
Yet, France, and Germany were able to retain their culture, and rise from the ashes. It's sad when a people has it's heritage ransacked, but it's sadder still when they have to worry about whether or not they will be alive next week because of their "Leader".
It's a tragedy, but sparing the one resource Iraq has to provide income for it's people is more important.
You can't eat a sculpture.
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And the hospitals, water treatment plants and other infrastructure?
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It's a loss for the US, no matter what position you hold on the war.
First, "Oil Ministry" has nothing that isn't replaceable. The oil is still in the ground. The infrastructure is still out in the fields. Without the oil ministry, you can still pump oil while paying Halliburton to redo all those surveys lost.
Second, if you put a pricetag on everything that would be lost if the oil ministry were looted and burned and compared that to how much was lost when the museum was looted and the library looted and burned, you'd find that the latter "collections of old stuff" were worth _billions_ more than the oil ministry.
Third, it's a false dichotomy. The military wasn't faced witht he choice "Oil Ministry or Museum and Library". They could have committed forces to both. The simple fact is that the Museum and Library weren't prioritized. It wasn't "Gee, we'd have liked to protect these cultural artefacts, but we didn't have the resources." It was "Nobody thought about listening to the art historians and archaeologists who came to the Pentagon to emphasize the importance of these sites".
Fourth, maybe the Iraqi people should have a say in what's more important to them? How many Iraqis would agree that saving the oil ministry was more important?
Fifth, this is a war of "hearts and minds". The US is trying to convince the Iraqi people and the rest of the Arab world that they're liberators, not colonizers. How great is it for the US to have Rumsfeld asking "How many vases can there be in the whole country?", while the museum is being looted and the oil resources defended?
the oil ministry is just a building with some useful (but replaceable) documents in it. The museum and the library were symbols of a culture that transcended religions and oppressive regimes. If you want to build a free Iraqi people, those are the symbols you want to use, not let get destroyed. The US screwed up. Now all youi can do is damage control.
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but who looted the museum?
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Iraqis who will sell the artifacts on the international antiquities black market. The priceless treasures will be in some rich git's vault - and the guy will most likely be a Westerner.
Archaological socialism cannot be used as a justification for the looting.
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Originally posted by OIO
You never played Command and Conquer dowding?
You cant build no friggin hospitals, barracks, power plants, etc if you do not build the goddarned refinery first!
The spice must flow! ;)
Whoa... just read this and got a chill up my spine. C&C as an analogy for real life stuff.. lol!
Usually you'd have to blow up an oil derrick in order to find a crate and money! :D
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Originally posted by Dnil
but who looted the museum?
Every society has it's criminals. That is why we have police officers. The US supplanted the authority of the police service in Baghdad and so had an obligation to perform that service.
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But who would expect a "seamless" changeover?
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now let's see...
the US warned that we would invade for months.. everyone on the world knew it.. they were preparing for war.
Why didn't they secure their museums?
I saw shop owners barricading their stores, people preparing for the worst. It seems to me they should have protected their valuables.
Obviously they couldn't stop all the looters but they could have at least tried! Or moved the stuff elsewhere, etc.
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As I understand it, the Museum had a 24 hour evacuation plan but never put it into play. Perhaps they didn't think it was necessary since their information minister said the infidels were being slaughtered and were no where near Baghdad. Hmmmmm.......
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To carry this ludicrous comparison further, what is more important to America, the Smithsonian or the Chevron-Texaco headquarters?
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Originally posted by Toad
But who would expect a "seamless" changeover?
No one one should expect a "seamless" changeover. There of course would have been a period of friction.
However, I think the reason that this incident is seen as a failure, isn't because the US weren't able to provide police services for the entirety of the city of Baghdad and it's population, but because they didn't police these two incredibly important and valuble buildings and their contents, even after the Pentagon was informed of their importance and content.
The US was able to police the Ministrys of Infomation and Oil buildings. Buildings whose documents are of somewhat transient worth.
If I recall correctly the area were the museme and libreary were located was in US military control well before the looting started.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
No one one should expect a "seamless" changeover. There of course would have been a period of friction.
However, I think the reason that this incident is seen as a failure, isn't because the US weren't able to provide police services for the entirety of the city of Baghdad and it's population, but because they didn't police these two incredibly important and valuble buildings and their contents, even after the Pentagon was informed of their importance and content.
The US was able to police the Ministrys of Infomation and Oil buildings. Buildings whose documents are of somewhat dubious and transient worth.
Yes. It is the US's fault that some Iraqi's are thieves. Those Iraqi's are not responsible at all.
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It is not the US's fault the museum was looted, however I regret our decision or lack of a decision to not provide security.
Reports I have seen indicate that the museum was hit by professionals. Replica artifacts were left alone, while originals were stolen. The will most likely attempt to fence them. The items that are lost will most likely resurface.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Yes. It is the US's fault that some Iraqi's are thieves. Those Iraqi's are not responsible at all.
No, it's the US's fault that they didn't police those theives. If crime goes up in a city because a mayor cuts police staff who's responsible?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
It is not the US's fault the museum was looted
Would the museum have been looted if the US didn't take military control of Baghdad?
A better argument, and one that is more consistant with the arguement that the US and GB invade Iraq to free them, would be that the looting of the museum and the library is worth the freedom of the Iraqis.
Of course, that would be a decision the US and GB made without the consultation of the Iraqi people, just like the war itself. Perhaps the Iraqis will decide that it was worth it, I'm sure time will tell us very soon.
The tragedy is that there is no possible way for the US to provide restitution, and it could have been so easily prevented.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
No, it's the US's fault that they didn't police those theives. If crime goes up in a city because a mayor cuts police staff who's responsible?
So if the police staff is cut in my city, I can go rob the bank, since it isn't my fault?
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I'm thinking it must be France's fault! Or maybe Canada's fault! If only we had more troops for our coalition!!
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Originally posted by Martlet
So if the police staff is cut in my city, I can go rob the bank, since it isn't my fault?
Nah, you aren't a criminal.
Say you have 50 cops and 50 criminals.
Each criminal tries to commit one crime.
Each cop stops one crime.
Net effect: 0 criminal acts.
The mayor lays off 25 cops.
Net effect: 25 criminal acts are succesfully commited.
The mayor is responsible for the increase in succesfully commited criminal acts.
There are 10 looters in Baghdad trying to loot.
There are 10 cops in Baghdad stopping them.
Net effect: 0 looting.
US "lays off" all the cops.
US doesn't replace place the cops.
You now have 10 looters successfully looting.
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ahh ok got ya, so there are bad people in the world that must be policed.
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Well said Montezuma... it *is* a ludicrous comparison. And well said Dinger; Syzygyone makes it sound like in order to have electricity, you have to sacrifice a museum (filled with "stuff"). Looking ahead 100 years from now, I wonder which would be valued more... folders full of land surveys and old contracts relating to a forgotten energy source, or artifacts from the beginnings of civilization (oops, I mean "old stuff").
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Originally posted by Dnil
ahh ok got ya, so there are bad people in the world that must be policed.
Exactly.
If your city had a rise in crime, and it city goverment said, "Wel,l it's not our fault, it's the criminal's.", they would be out of a job pretty quick. Because their arugment leaves out the fact that it's thier job to protect the public and to try and stop the criminals.
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You now have 10 looters successfully looting.
but it is no way the theives fault? what ?
doesn't hold water Thrawn.
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Strange that looters had keys to safes. I saw shots on TV of looting of palaces and office buildings and hospitals but none of Museum looters in action. I must have missed it or maybe TV reporters missed it. Some of the pieces had to be fairly heavy. Did the looters bring heavy equipment. Makes me wonder if anything was left there before we got there.
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haha guess I was being waaay to vague for you thrawn :) was more of a protecting the world kinda comment.
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Originally posted by Dowding
And the hospitals, water treatment plants and other infrastructure?
May be that if we'd had some help from some of the self-interested profiteering UN members we may have had the resources to protect everything. As it is, there is some disruption, but everything will soon be fine.
Just saw you beat me to the punch MT
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
but it is no way the theives fault? what ?
doesn't hold water Thrawn.
Yes it does. The thieves are responsible for commiting the crime. The cops (US) are responsible for trying to stopping them.
It was a situation that the adminstration were made aware of before it was committed. The adminstration decided to do SFA about.
Museum M is showing the Hope diamond.
Adminstration of Museum M is told by experts that there is a good chance that Museum will be robbed and the Hope diamond stolen, and the Adminstration is in a position to stop it.
Administration does SFA to protect the Hope diamond.
Hope diamond is stolen.
Who is responsible?
The entire argument about the Iraqi citizens being responsible is base on one weak fact.
OMG there are criminals in Iraq??
Holy crap, the Iraqis stole these artifacts?? They are so too blame!!
BS, Iraqi criminals stole these artifacts. Out of a population of 5,000,000 how many participated in the theft?
It's a city like any other, in the sense that it has it's law abiding citizens and it's criminals.
The reason why the argument fails is because, although Iraqi criminals commited the crime, the US had an obligation to try and stop them, of which they made no attempt to do so whatsoever.
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I don't recall so much indignation when the Taliban was destroying 2000 year old Buddahs. Lemme think, which country was it that orchestrated their removal? Ah yes, same folks liberating Iraq. Same folks that will restore order in Iraq, when they can do so without undue risk to their own lives. I value the life of one US soldier far more than all the treasures in Iraq.
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Check International Law guys.
In case of occupation, it is the duty of the occupying force to guard, police and keep order.
It's for a reason. After a city has fallen, there usually ain't too many of the former rulers there - they'e either fled, been killed or been taken POWs. So the occupying force gotta do the policing. I suspect the US wasn't prepared for such a quick collapse of Baghdad and were caught off guard by the speed of the capture, refusing to really believe it, yet spinning it like mad in the medias.
The US failed here. Remain objective. Judge fairly. Admitting failures isn't equal to non patriotism; blind patriotism IS.
I have an amateur interest in archaeology, and I can tell you this; what was taken was priceless. If put in military terms, this is like the US losing 100 planes, 5000 men, 150 tanks a day for two weeks. Try keeping up a wa of liberation in Iraq with those losses.
Those artefacts...unique. You do realize that those are direct connections to our predecessors (ours as in humans)? Human fingers touched touched those, humans minds invented them - as human as we are.
But you gotta have an interest in archaelogy to understand how old stuff really an hold any value.
Am saddened by this incredible cultural loss. Humanity lost something great here and I hope at least some will be found again :(.
Maybe I should compile a list of the more important items taken along with a description. Perhaps then people will realize it's not just some old socks and stuff, and realize the massive scale of the loss.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Check International Law guys.
In case of occupation, it is the duty of the occupying force to guard, police and keep order.
Can you be an 'occupying force' before you finish the shootin' war part of the job?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Can you be an 'occupying force' before you finish the shootin' war part of the job?
Yes, you can, Holden, unless you want to be a barbarian and lose "the moral high ground" ;)
Anyway, the "blame-shifting" that someone here have made is amaizing.
LOL, France and Germany are responsable of the looting ;)
IMHO, the decision to not give precedence to the Hospitals, Water plants, Power plants, and Museums/libraries was a big mistake, expecially on the PR point of view
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Originally posted by Naso
Yes, you can, Holden, unless you want to be a barbarian and lose "the moral high ground" ;)
Anyway, the "blame-shifting" that someone here have made is amaizing.
LOL, France and Germany are responsable of the looting ;)
IMHO, the decision to not give precedence to the Hospitals, Water plants, Power plants, and Museums/libraries was a big mistake, expecially on the PR point of view
Water and power plants were beyond our control. That was done before we got there.
The looting, however, I do agree we should have done something to stop it if at all possible. Looting palaces, etc, I don't think we should have done anything about. Those were built with money stolen from the people. Not stopping the looting of museums and hospitals WAS a big mistake. Not just for the PR hit we took, either. I think they were concerned about upsetting the Iraqi population, which would have created bigger problems for the coalition.
I wasn't there, so I don't know why certain decisions were made. I do believe we should have protected some historical and humanitarian sites, though. We didn't, until we started getting bad press for it. However, we are immediately trying to correct that mistake. Iraqi's are being taken to coalition hospitals for care. Medical supplies are being flown into Iraqi hospitals. FBI is there trying to track down stolen items. A few have been recovered.
I don't thank that even comes close to putting a bad spin on the over all conflict, though, and ultimate blame lies with the thieves.
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Yeh Martlet, but it's still a shame, especially considering all the urgent warning/pleading coming out of the international archaeological groups :/
OTOH, anyone valuing old stuff more highly than human lives deserves to be shot.
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Its a shame that the museum and historical items were lost. But there are many clues to indicate that it was a inside job, or at the very least a professional robbery, not common looting. Plus, I bet quite a few of those artifacts are recovered in the end.
But lets be realistic here. Its a war zone, and there was still combat ongoing at the time. And there are issues like limited resources. There are only so many troops to go around. Could more have been done? Maybe, but we are not there on the ground, and can only arm chair quarterback.
It doesn't matter really. The "anti war" crowd is going to grasp at anything they can, to try and vindicate their positions. Especially now that most of their doom and gloom predictions have been proven false.
No the US hasn't "snapped its fingers" and instantly repaired the entire Iraqi country, and updated it to modern standards (umm wait... it wasn't close in the first place), but I think a good start has been made, and it will improve.
Be realistic guys.
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Vermillion, being realistic, in a precedence list, occupying a city, and having in mind the strategic objective to "gain their hearts and souls", I will have pointed first to recover the water supply, then the Hospitals, 3rd the power plants, maybe in pair with some cultural symbol that can be used to show/demonstrate the common ground between our cultures (the origins of urban organization, and the writing, basicly), then the rest.
I would have put the Oil Minister very low in my priority list, unless I will need 2 things:
1st, demonstrate the connections of France's oil company with Saddam's regime (easy one ;) ).
2nd, preserving some structure to have quick rebuild of the primary resource of Iraq (with some personal advantage).
The "anti war" crowd is going to grasp at anything they can, to try and vindicate their positions. Especially now that most of their doom and gloom predictions have been proven false.
Reducing the Anti-war position in a simple generalization, as the "radio-Bush" members here do, is something that change a possible civil discussion in a pissing war, perfect for a propaganda agenda, but not for a common enrichment.
My personal position is that this war, waged out of any common and official agreement (read UN), is something that, in the medium-long term, can have a cost way over what we, as western countries, are willing to pay.
And it's too early to see somthing, now.
Let's hope for the best.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
It doesn't matter really. The "anti war" crowd is going to grasp at anything they can, to try and vindicate their positions. Especially now that most of their doom and gloom predictions have been proven false.
Direct hit. Not that it matters, most of these folks have already proven themselves to be beyond reason, for exactly the reason you stated.
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Perk ARTIFACTS!!!!
:D