Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Urchin on April 18, 2003, 01:35:13 AM
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I really would have liked to say "Is our country disintegrating" but since not everyone is from America that might lead to some confusion.
I just watched a movie called "187". It is about a teacher who gets attacked by a student and moves across the country to California to teach. I didn't catch the first 15 minutes or so, so I have no idea why he would want to teach in an inner city L.A. school, but that is what he did. Anyway, he gets into a pissing contest with some gang in the school and ends up killing one of them and cutting another ones finger off. Eventually, he gets fired (not over that, but for tutoring a girl in his home), and 3 of the gang members go to killl him for killing their 'homeboy'. Anyway, the 'leader' of this gang (or at least the chief protaganist) is the one who got his finger chopped off. Him and the teacher end up playing Russian roulette, and the teacher blows his head off while taking the kids turn. The kid then gets upset and takes his turn, and blows his head off. I'd have quit while I was ahead, but hey...
Anyway, this movie kind of got me thinking. Is our society tearing itself apart? Even in the school district I substitute in (which is not a city district) there is usually at least one incident a year where a teacher is attacked by a student. I don't believe any of them have been fatal, but there have been several teachers that were severely injured as a result of a student attacking them. One in particular that I remember happened to a teacher in my high school while I was attending said school. A teacher was pushed down a flight of stairs by a student while trying to break up a fight between two students- I believe she broke a leg (but it might have been an arm, I just remember she broke something and was out the rest of the year). Or are we only self-destructing in certain places, like the cities? And even if it is just in certain places, is it right for the rest of us to stand by and do nothing?
Also, I honestly don't understand what the hell seems to be wrong with people. You constantly hear about people just 'snapping'. School shootings, work shootings, "road rage", other assorted random violence that really shows that we, collectively, have very little regard for other people. I don't get it. I can understand being pissed off. I can even understand wanting to kill someone. I can even picture circumstances where I might actually go through with it- but I can't understand someone killing someone else over being cut off on the highway.
So, what is missing? Is it just a basic disregard for other people? A nonchalant attitude towards the wants and needs of others combined with a single-minded focus of WHAT I WANT, WHEN I WANT IT? I subscribe to the notion that everyone is responsible for their own actions... but it doesn't seem to be a universal belief by any means. Where are we going wrong as a society? Why is there such blatant lack of self control among so many people? What can we (collectively) do to impose order on these people? It seems to me that the 'justice system' isn't really cutting it. Our jails are more crowded than they have ever been, but it doesn't seem to deter crime. So how do we fix it?
Am I the only person that is seeing a gradual slide toward chaos? Am I perhaps misinterpreting stuff? What do you guys think? Also, for you non-Americans- do you notice anything similar going on in your countries?
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Too many kids being raised by one or zero biological parents. And the parents that stick around are often addicted and/or abusive. What we need is a MOAB filled with birth control.
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What we need is a MOAB filled with birth control
:D EXCELLENT!
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For some reason, this thread makes me imagine America de-rezzing like Sark's carrier in Tron... bit by little bit.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
For some reason, this thread makes me imagine America de-rezzing like Sark's carrier in Tron... bit by little bit.
-- Todd/Leviathn
NERD!
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That was a good movie. IIRC Samuel L Jackson played the teacher and was pretty intense. The freaky thing is I was in L.A. for the first time when I saw it. Not being used to huge cities like that I was nervous already and seeing that made me want to leave even more.
Back to the point, what Funked said, and even when both parents are around they let school/tv/video-games raise the kid for them.
Dunno how to fix it other than stopping them from breeding. I think you'd stop alot of the gang stuff by paying crack potatos/welfare moms to have their tubes tied. There was an organization doing this but i think they got shut down.
As for rich kids going on killing sprees, I'm not sure. I dont think holding parents responsible would work. You would think the possiblility of kids going psycho would be get their parents to pay attention but evidently not.
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But is it right to stop people from having children? They called it Eugenics in the 30's- Hitler forced it on the Jews, and most "first-world" countries (including America) sterilized retarded people.
Now granted- that probably WOULD solve the problem. If there are no children then this generation of ... hoodlums? Yea, that is a good word I suppose, anyway, they would be the last generation. But wouldn't it be a HUGE violation of everything America is supposed to stand for? I just feel like the country is drifting off course, but I don't know if there is an acceptable solution to the problem.
I don't really buy the 'racial' argument, I do buy the 'poverty' argument but trying to solve that problem would likely bankrupt the country and would also be a huge violation of what America 'stands for'. I just wonder if maybe Rome went through similar troubles before they eventually just collapsed under their own weight.
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Yah as others have said; the problem isn't Americans, really. The problem is parents not raising their kids.
It's the same in most other western societies, although it manifests itself more in the US.
Urchin, I personally think it's a dangerous development. Nowadays parents try to realize themselves more than they try to raise kids - kdids are just part of the self realization bit. And the kids become even more narcissistic than their parents. In just 15 years things have changed a lot. No idea where this is heading.
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You don't have a monopoly in that, violence is rising on this side too.
What our western-society is looking for now is nothing more than entertainment, at any price.
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Well said Saw, well said.
Now I am going sky diving. Am sure my chute although broken can hold up to another few dives :D
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Just use your underwear as a backup, I'm sure it's large enough ;)
PS: Vox is back in AH... we're waitin for you!
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I think one of the problems is that in many western liberal democracies, the concept of "personal responsibility" is dead.
If little Johnny or Jane is naughty and vandalizes a neighbors house, it wasn't "their fault". And the parents will even defend them to the bitter end.
If someone is a mass murderer and goes to court, it "wasn't his fault, he had a bad childhood".
An act of road rage? A bad day at work.
And all the rest of the bull****. Too many excuses, and not enough pointing the blame at where the blame should go.
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Dudes. It's a frikkin movie.
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and the teacher blows his head off while taking the kids turn. The kid then gets upset and takes his turn, and blows his head off.
Tip #2 : when playing Russian roulette, remember to use only ONE bullet
Tip #3: don't play Russian roulette with anything other than a super-soaker
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Ask me Urch, next time online....I'll fill ya in.
The answer is simple.
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its all eminems fault. him and his mean lyrics :D
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In my year and a half as a prosecutor, I have seen things that defy imagination. I have seen the worst that a person can do to another. Often just because they can. You can read those stories, you can even see the pictures...but until you're face to face with a 16 year old girl who has been raped, asking her to relive every detail so you'll be able to convince a judge that the defendant is guilty...You cannot imagine the pain you see.
And I cannot express my anger at someone who would do this. But many times it's all they know. Brutality begats brutality. Boys see their fathers treat their mothers and other woman like **** and do the same. Girls see their moms beaten because the food is cold and figure that is just how life is and accept it themselves. And the cycle continues. The strong dominate the weak. And it's ok.
Sure, especially in the juvenile world, we try to stop this behavior before it becomes a lifestyle. If an offender can be rehabilitated, and truly wants to be, then by all means let's give them the help they need. Let's try to break the cycle in this instance. But too often they don't care.
Some kids never see the way out. They don't know anyone who made it out of their ****-hole existance. And if they do, it's someone that their buddies picked on becuase they weren't cool enough.
It's going to take more than money and education. It's going to take a shift in mentality. It's not ok to hit women. It's not ok to sing songs about rape (I just had a case where a 12 year old boy forced a 6 year old to perform oral sex on him becuase he heard about it on a rap cd...no toejam). Getting an education is a good thing. Stop having sex at 15 and have a baby at 16 is not a good thing......I could go on and on. It's not money. It's not education. Or, it's not them alone. This country needs a shift in mentality. Or, and pardon me for saying this, but this country needs to pull its morals out of the gutter.
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Our youth now have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room;
they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.
(Socrates, 5th Century BC)
I'd also look to the producers/director of that movie and ask yourself if they had a left wing message to preach?
In short, relax.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Max Erhman 1927 (1872-1945, a Harvard philosopher and lawyer)
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I too have had some significant modicum of experience prosecuting criminals. Been a fed for over 20 years. I've recently expanded my horizons to looking for terrorists. Lots and lots of bad guys out there!
Your post was thought provoking and I'd like to share a few thoughts:
1) Don't let your immersion into the gutter blind you to the good, the really good, that there is in the world and in today's youth especially.
2) Don't think for a second that what you describe is endemic to this nation alone, or this generation.
3) Shed your preconceived notions of what should be and understand that you are now on the front lines defending the incredibly fragile thing we call social order. Don't get mad, Don't get incensed, Dont' get scared. Do gain resolve to continue doing your job the best you can. If enough of us continue to do the jobs necessary to keep the fragile order working, then we will be okay. If enough of us start wringing our hands, and wailing and nashing our teeth, then we will perish.
4) Lead by example, teach your children, Strive to do great things. As Capt. Miller's closing line of Private Ryan goes..."Earn this."
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At the risk of being labeled a "right winger", kids are worse today than they were 40 years ago. That does not mean all of them are bad. The bad ones are the ones that get the press and movies. You know there WERE quite a few OTHER kids in Columbine but you never hear about them do you.
The conflict in Iraq is a good example that quite a few of our "kids" have matured in a responsible manner. The examples shown in the "embedded" press are great reminders that we should not just concentrate on spotlighting the bad kids and should recognize the good ones.
Hollywierd is NOT a common view of society. As they say, never let the truth get in the way of a story. I suppose CNN might use that for a "defense". :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by funkedup
Too many kids being raised by one or zero biological parents. And the parents that stick around are often addicted and/or abusive. What we need is a MOAB filled with birth control.
Family is such a old fashioned concept. Marriage is slavery.
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when i was a teenager we played Russian roulette with a blank firing starters pistol, the "loser" had to chug his beer, and yes , only use ONE round.
i live in a muliti-racial, muliti-ethnic apt complex,almost all the kids are just normal kids and they all play together, even the adults get along, maybe i'm just lucky.
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Hey Urchin! I saw that movie. A 10-187 - is that a police code meaning that someone is down or shot?
Yes, things have gone bad - over here as well. My brother is a teacher, and his lament is that each year's new intake of children is worse than the last. What an indictment! :eek:
Now he is at a new school, where most of the children have 2 parents, and... - Vive la différence!
Some of us can remember the laisser faire nature of the hippie days of the 1960s - total abdication of responsibility. All that Tune in, drop out, turn on crap. And the thing of it is - the children borne of that era are the parents of today. No wonder there are problems.
Still, Urchin is cool, and demonstrates that civilisation has not completely gone to pot.
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Mietla is a man of wise words. :D
Listen to 'im Rip. You're still semi-young and have a couple (one) good years left in you. Not too late to get out.
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Originally posted by john9001
... we played Russian roulette with a blank firing starters pistol...
Russian roulette with a pistol? That's smart. I bet you've loaded only "one bullet", right?
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Still, I recall that Chicago was running about 5,000 murders a year a century ago. A lot lower now 90-95%. So we must be doing something better than then, at least. Still, violent crime is 4 times higher than in the 50's too, so we have done things better than we are now, too.
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revolvers are called pistols, you might have a hard time getting a blank to cycle a auto-loader.
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Originally posted by mietla
Russian roulette with a pistol? That's smart. I bet you've loaded only "one bullet", right?
Wouldn't matter if they played the way this guy did....
(28 February 2000, Texas) A Houston man earned a succinct lesson in gun safety when he played Russian roulette with a .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol. Rashaad, nineteen, was visiting friends when he announced his intention to play the deadly game. He apparently did not realize that a semiautomatic pistol, unlike a revolver, automatically inserts a cartridge into the firing chamber when the gun is cocked. His chance of winning a round of Russian roulette was zero, as he quickly discovered.
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I think nostalgia is a terrible thing.
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Urchin, I don't know if America is disintegrating, but based upon your description of that movie I think it's safe to say America's film industry is disintegrating.
God, what a stupid idea for a movie.
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Originally posted by Dune
In my year and a half as a prosecutor, I have seen things that defy imagination. I have seen the worst that a person can do to another. Often just because they can. You can read those stories, you can even see the pictures...but until you're face to face with a 16 year old girl who has been raped, asking her to relive every detail so you'll be able to convince a judge that the defendant is guilty...You cannot imagine the pain you see.
And I cannot express my anger at someone who would do this. But many times it's all they know. Brutality begats brutality. Boys see their fathers treat their mothers and other woman like **** and do the same. Girls see their moms beaten because the food is cold and figure that is just how life is and accept it themselves. And the cycle continues. The strong dominate the weak. And it's ok.
Sure, especially in the juvenile world, we try to stop this behavior before it becomes a lifestyle. If an offender can be rehabilitated, and truly wants to be, then by all means let's give them the help they need. Let's try to break the cycle in this instance. But too often they don't care.
Some kids never see the way out. They don't know anyone who made it out of their ****-hole existance. And if they do, it's someone that their buddies picked on becuase they weren't cool enough.
It's going to take more than money and education. It's going to take a shift in mentality. It's not ok to hit women. It's not ok to sing songs about rape (I just had a case where a 12 year old boy forced a 6 year old to perform oral sex on him becuase he heard about it on a rap cd...no toejam). Getting an education is a good thing. Stop having sex at 15 and have a baby at 16 is not a good thing......I could go on and on. It's not money. It's not education. Or, it's not them alone. This country needs a shift in mentality. Or, and pardon me for saying this, but this country needs to pull its morals out of the gutter.
Well said Dune, well said. But one last thing I would like to add, is that the turn of this nation away from spirituality to selfindulgence is also a massive cause in the problems of today. I do know that my children will receive an introduction to spirituality by their parents, and be allowed to choose their own path at a mature age. I do believe that is why my head stay level.
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I think alot of the problem with violent teenagers (and some of your younger adults) is that most boys are raised by women (some women are good at raising boys but most are clueless as to the things boys deal with that women never see).
that and the zero tolarance on any violence at all in elementry school.
these kids are told they are not allowed to fight from the time they are born.
"no excuse for violence"
no matter what, it doesn't matter if the other kid hits first. you should just yell for help while the other guy beats on you, don't hit back.
while it does take 2 to fight, most schools don't realise it only takes 1 to beat on a victim.
so instead of kids having normal scraps like me and most guys my age or older had, and eventually sorting out these fealings while you are young and doing relitivly minor damage to each other.
and there will always be bullys and all we've done is guarentee helpless victims, who have no idea how to defend themselves.
The bullys get worse and worse. nothing to build confidence in a thug like no resistance from the victim
these victims eventually can't take anymore and snap. they have no idea how to deffend themselves normally and know they can't win a fist fight so they get a gun and you have another Columbine.
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Ahh yet another Teacher-Saves-The-World Movie. Kind of like "The Substitute" and "Dangerous Minds" and countless others.
Plot: Poor school overrun by gangbangers and ghetto kids. Faculty has ceased to care. Innocent teacher moves to town and starts workin there. TEacher assumes MACHO mode and starts cleanin up the school. Teacher confronted by gangbangers set in their ways. "Why you be changin things foo, I bout to bust a cap in..." Insert ridicolous stereotype. Dumb kid finally passes a test and thanks teacher in sappy scene. Teacher moves out of town and kids watch as he/she rides off into sunset. Insert various nationality of said teacher.
:rolleyes:
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Syzygyone, thanks for the encouragement.
Don't get me wrong, I love what I do. Especially being in a courtroom every day, the trials, and the mental gymnastics.
But the most rewarding is the thought that not only could I be helping the victims, but there are the kids who come in and perhaps learn their lesson. It's sometimes a hard call to make, figuring out how harsh their lesson should be. But I know there are those who figure it out. And if what I do helps them, even if it's only 5%, then it's worth it.
One of the best stories I have is a kid who got into a fight at high school. It was quickly broken up and the school resource officer (policeman) took him aside. He asked him why, after being a pretty good kid, decided to start a fight at school and with someone bigger than he was. The kid replied that the bigger kid had been telling everyone for two weeks he wanted to fight. So he decided it would look good to everyone if he started the fight and if he did it at school, someone would be along to break it up quickly before he got hurt. :D
I gave him diverson and dismissed the case :D
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Originally posted by Maverick
At the risk of being labeled a "right winger", kids are worse today than they were 40 years ago. That does not mean all of them are bad. The bad ones are the ones that get the press and movies. You know there WERE quite a few OTHER kids in Columbine but you never hear about them do you.
The conflict in Iraq is a good example that quite a few of our "kids" have matured in a responsible manner. The examples shown in the "embedded" press are great reminders that we should not just concentrate on spotlighting the bad kids and should recognize the good ones.
Hollywierd is NOT a common view of society. As they say, never let the truth get in the way of a story. I suppose CNN might use that for a "defense". :rolleyes:
Here's what i see in the future of the US kids today, people who immigrate to USA will be the bosses and the citizens here are going to work under the boss's command.
I also predict that Russia will be #1 superpower because they have intelectual people there and they will beat us again like they did with their SPUTNIKS and Yuri Gagarin. Russia's schools are free like here in the USA but they value education there and we throw it away here in the US (those people who dont give a F@*K).
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No, perhaps it was a bad idea to give the movie as an example. It kind of steered my post in the wrong direction.
Yes, it is a symptom of what I see as a rot, for lack of a better word. But another and larger part is that nobody seems to care about anyone else. Managers, for instance- they don't care about their employees at all. Employees are just another resource to a manager, and an expendable one at that. I'd say probably 95% of the managers I've worked for care for one thing, which is how big their paycheck is going to be. Since their bonus comes out of your paycheck (after all, whats the easiest way to cut costs? Cut employees, you can hire more later. But it isn't just 'managers' .. it seems just about all-pervasive in our society. Everyone worships money... and thats it. If they have to crush you to get an extra dollar, they will.
Ah, I'm not to good at expressing myself I guess, so I'll put an end to the lament now and spare you.
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Is America disintegrating?
I just checked my lawn. It seems to be intact.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Ah, I'm not to good at expressing myself I guess, so I'll put an end to the lament now and spare you.
Urchin, I thought you articulated yourself quite well, and most of us know exactly what you're saying and, for the most part, agree with you. Thanks for posting, it's an intresting thread.
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
Here's what i see in the future of the US kids today, people who immigrate to USA will be the bosses and the citizens here are going to work under the boss's command.
I also predict that Russia will be #1 superpower because they have intelectual people there and they will beat us again like they did with their SPUTNIKS and Yuri Gagarin. Russia's schools are free like here in the USA but they value education there and we throw it away here in the US (those people who dont give a F@*K).
I have no idea why you quoted my post as you said nothing related to it. :confused:
BTW Rusia did not "beat" us, if you look it up please see how the USSR is no longer and while they were first in a couple areas of the space race they have long since stagnated in working "new ground".
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SPUTNIK?? you make me laugh, while america was working "real" satellites that really did something, USSR put up a dinky little ball that did nothing but send out a "beep, beep".
da da we beat you into space, da da
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Originally posted by john9001
SPUTNIK?? you make me laugh, while america was working "real" satellites that really did something, USSR put up a dinky little ball that did nothing but send out a "beep, beep".
da da we beat you into space, da da
umm what signals did the 1st US satellites send? i think the signals they send were based on a radio signal and says..........
"we are 2nd to none"
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
I also predict that Russia will be #1 superpower because they have intelectual people there and they will beat us again like they did with their SPUTNIKS and Yuri Gagarin. Russia's schools are free like here in the USA but they value education there and we throw it away here in the US (those people who dont give a F@*K).
This has got to be the biggest crock of crap anyone has ever spewed on the message board ever! The Russians have sold 55% of their future Oil Wealth to American Big Business, and that is just a start. 85% of the Gold found in Siberia now belongs to an American Mining firm as well. You think those companies don't have a stake in Russia's future? Think again, the biggest economic sales goto the US, and will continue to do so for the next 50+ years. The reason is simple, the US has the highest amount of high end earning people in the world.
Until Russia ends their severe black market and Russian Mob, there will be no Russian Economic Victory on the horizon. And that is very unlikey to happen as American Companies serve to earn little and gain much with the demise of the Russian Black MArket and Mob.
Ignorance really must be bliss in your world ya dumb toejam.
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Our youth now have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room;(Socrates, 5th Century BC)
<~~very well put by socrates,,just goes to show,,the more free a society gets,,the more it takes to entertain them!,,,greeks and romans first democrats pretty much,,,and they ended up killing people and animal's in arena's for entertainment,,,atleast we got movies that are fake instead of doing the real thing! and robots that can fight in arena's for us<~~~think they will let us use some of iraqs surplus wepons on robot wars?,,heheh now that would be cool
there is allways going to be some one who thinks wrong,,and going to bend movies or lyrics into a reason for them to commit some awfull crime,,lolBrutality begats brutality. Boys see their fathers treat their mothers and other woman like **** and do the same
im sure in some casses it sure does,,but just because a kid see's there parent do somthing,,doesnt mean they think its right,,give kids a little room for being smart,,lol,, i seen my mom get beat up by my stepdad a few times when i was a little kid,,{i never hit or beat any of my girlfreinds} nor would i,,,,,,i know people who were abused just as bad,,,but they never did anything bad and i would trust them with my life,,,it just counts on the person,,,,most people who commit a crime are going to do the crime anyways,,and saying they got abused or beat as a kid,,is somtimes just a excuse so they can get away with it{not allways}
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more liberal democrats running the show ...
more Opra's/Dr Phils to tell the masses when, how & what to think ...
more springer/love muffin shows called entertainment...
more hollywood types speaking as if they had half a brain not burnt out by coke ...
legalized drugs ...
abortion on demand ....
no marriage, long term commitments ....
ZERO personal responsibilty .....
remove ANY reference to the DIVINE from EVERYWHERE...
if it feels good, do it .. if it feels great, do it twice...
.. then all would be right in the world. :(
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It's all into the education the parents is giving to their children.
Alas, in USA ... sheesh ... the "my kid is a king" don't slap him and freedom to grow the way you want ... well, all this retarded 1968 type of attitude combined with a hint of "TV violence derision" perverts the mind and leads to "The Dude". The Dude ... getting associated with other "The Dude" then becomes an example of of "everything is possible" and "I need fast cash" ... the horde of dude, motivating each other with clouded judgement, is not more worthy than a flock of cheerleaders in a Macy's dressing room the night before the prom.
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Look on the flight decks of any United States aircraft carrier.
Look on the battlefields of Aghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, and Kosova.
Realize that the young men and women that are doing the fighting come from this "disintegrating America."
It's a load of nonsense.
Our children are indeed incredible human beings, no less incredible than those in decades past.
I hadn't considered this until the C.O. of the U.S.S. Lincoln pointed it out. He has faith in our youth. He sees them every single day. We all should.
Hint: Turn off the television.
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Only a few ...while their peers are fighting, others don't give a rat prettythang about the geopolitical situation and are squeaking at mom because she gave them only $300 to buy chrome rims to put on their brand new honda Civic. After all, dressing like a slut when you are 17 brings instant easy recognition ... that would take years of character molding to achieve otherwise.
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Hey Frenchy I drive a Civic (no chromies though) :) Urchin does bring up a good question though, and not one that is just brought up by the conservative types. I too get the feeling we somehow are moving toward a more chaotic world at home and abroad. And yes there are certain scary parallels to what happened in Rome, but I'm too tired to get into it tonight, so maybe I'll post something on it tomorrow. Bottom line though, the march of history seems to always drift toward the positive, but things usually get a lot worse before they get much better.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
single day. We all should.........
Hint: Turn off the television.
...and dont let your kids watch MTV. I HATE my MTV because that channel poisons our american kids with gangsta rappers like Tupac Shakur and suicidal rockers like "KURT COKAIN (Cobaine)" in the group called Nirvana.
...and you better be strict to your son/daughter (if you have one). Once they reach 13 years old and dont let 'em have sex untill they finish college with a bachelors' degree and your son/daughter will be sucessful in life and they will be for the good of the USA.
now thats how you stop the 300 year old AMERICA from disintegrating.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
I think one of the problems is that in many western liberal democracies, the concept of "personal responsibility" is dead.
If little Johnny or Jane is naughty and vandalizes a neighbors house, it wasn't "their fault". And the parents will even defend them to the bitter end.
If someone is a mass murderer and goes to court, it "wasn't his fault, he had a bad childhood".
An act of road rage? A bad day at work.
And all the rest of the bull****. Too many excuses, and not enough pointing the blame at where the blame should go.
What ? You mean it's not the fault of tobacco, video games, marijuana and popular music ?
Seriously, I think a lot of our social problems can be traced back to the breakdown of the family unit . People, especially women, most often are motivated to procreate for selfish reasons, that's natural, so is overpopulation of a dominant species, and we know how nature deals with overpopulation .
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It's all the fault of furballs cruel avatar!
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At least part of the fault lies with our social workers who say, spanking your kids is wrong no matter what the kid has done.
I have a son who is now 20. When he was 15 his mother sent him to live with me because he was *uncontrollable*. ie stealing, running away from home, hanging out with known gangs etc etc.
When he first showed up money started to disappear, things with value like jewelry also started to disappear. We knew it was him taking these things but had no proof. I installed a deadbolt lock on our bedroom door, and we started keeping money and other valuables in our (locked) room. So what does my son do? He cuts the screen on our bedroom window and comes in through the window. One night my wife forgets to put her purse in the bedroom and he wipes her out. (takes over $40)
At this point I sit him down and tell him we know it's him taking this stuff and that at 15 he knows it's wrong and why. I also explain future consequences for any further stealing. Less than 2 weeks later he cleans out his 3 year old half-sisters purse. Now the consequences I laid out for him come into play. (the consequences was a spanking. I used his belt since I do not own one). He called 911, I got a ticket for child abuse. I spent over $4000 on attorney fees fighting this and still ended up with a deferred judgement, 1 year probation and mandatory parenting classes.
Absolutely no one would do anything about his stealing, all they cared about was the fact that I had spanked him with a belt.
Kids today know that if their parents use corparal (sp) punishment all they have to do is call the police and thier parents will be in big trouble, so they do as they wish without regard for any consequences.
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Just send him to the BOOT CAMP man and he'll shape up.
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Elfie, did you consider contacting the police before you struck your child?
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Elfie, did you consider contacting the police before you struck your child?
Yes, this was part of an *escalating consequences* plan that was explained to him. However, I felt (and still do) that it was better to try to resolve the issue w/o involving the police if possible. His mother had called the police on him multiple times and this was a source of great resentment in him.
I even asked the police later what, if anything they would have done if I had called them. Their answers were less than satisfactory. Because he lived in the home things like fingerprints would most likely not have been considered evidence.
The point of my post was to show how helpless many parents with troubled children truly are. The system doesnt care about the kids unless you strike them for their behavior........then they want to throw the book at ya.....
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elfie
thank the libs
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Originally posted by Eagler
elfie
thank the libs
no kidding :p
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Originally posted by Ike 2K#
Just send him to the BOOT CAMP man and he'll shape up.
He joined the Army over a year ago. I have not heard from him since he signed up, so I have no idea what unit he is with or where he is stationed.
That may not be such a bad thing. If he is in Iraq I would have had many sleepless nights. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss ;)
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I understand. I can't empathize, but I understand. I have a 15 year old of my own at home. Corporal punishment isn't part of the regimen here and I believe you'll have a hard time finding a better behaved young man. FWIW, my parents divorced when I was 18. Didn't really effect me, but my youngest sister put them through the ringer. Effective parenting has got to be difficult from a divided front.
Blame the libs... bah... that's a cop out, IMHO.
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Elf,
Nice try on salvaging the kid. It's too bad the ex had to send him to you at a point where he was all but past salvage. Just a quick question, did this take place in california?
As an Officer I have responded to more than one "abuse" call to find that it was an overreaction of the reprter to a normal disciplinary spaning. Fortunately it's not that bad in AZ....yet. I did take action in a couple cases but it was a clear case of abuse. The kids were sent to a foster home and they got a second chance to have a good home.
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Sandman my daughter is 8 now and corporal punishment is not part of the regimen with her and she is usually very well behaved. (She has her days, like all of the rest of us :) ) Corporal punishment is a punishment of last resort in this house. With Heather the mere threat is enough to keep her in good behavior :)
Maverick, this happened in Broomfield Colorado. Yes....his mother did send him to me 7 or 8 years to late. I knew when he was only 6 or 7 that she was going to have big problems with him as a teenager, (she was having problems then) and I begged her to let him live with me. Unfortunately she was still very bitter about me divorcing her for sleeping with other men and keeping custody was just another way for her to exact revenge.
Did this thread get hijacked? :eek:
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Nope no hijack, just a discussion about a symptom of one of America's problems.
I feel (opinion) that the majority of todays problem kids are the result of kids from prior hippy's. The reason I say this is not the drug issue but one of an overuse of the "freedom to do their own thing" and a lack of concern for parenting. The hippys rebelled from the way their parnts raised them and figured they would do it in a much more "free" environment, IE. lack of control and concern. As a result their kids became chronlogically adults and had kids of their own. Since they didn't have "parents" they have no clue or example to follow and tend to ignore their offspring in the search for their own entertainment and "fulfillment". It isn't the kids fault. Hell, they were hardly even house broken by their "parental units" much less taught how to behave and right from wrong.
An over emphasis on "giving" the kid self esteem instead of teaching them how to EARN it by their actions in the school system just puts the frosting on the cake. They have been taught that what THEY want is paramount and the world / society owes it to them. It is the "duty" of all others concerned with caring for them to give the kid whatever he /she wants. This is a self perpetuationg problem that bites quite a few kids on the butt when they get out in the "REAL WORLD" and their boss and others don't give them what they want. (Straffo I agree with ya)
Elf, how did the boy turn out? Did he turn himself around?
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Elf, how did the boy turn out? Did he turn himself around?
At 16 he was made a ward of the state (by this time he was back living with his mom in Nebraska). He was put into a program where he either had to get his HS diploma or a GED. (He opted for the GED) He was also put into an apartment and required to hold a job working at least 36 hours a week. He had to pay his own rent, utilities, phone etc. A social worker supervised him until he turned 19.
He has since joined the Army which I think will do him a world of good. In answer to your questions.....I don't really know. I don't hear from him much, and his mom has never been very open when it comes to discussing issues regarding our son. I still hope he straightens out someday :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
elfie
thank the libs
What are we thanking the Libs for? Did the "Libs" break up Elfie's marriage after he'd started a family? Did the "libs" make Elfie remarry and start a new family, virtually abandoning his son? The only thing I can see to thank the Libs for is that beating a fifteen year old with a belt is now considered child abuse. So, I agree- thank you, Libs.
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im sure you want to hear from a kid that is just getting done being a kid. The worst people i ever met came from highly religous households, and the best people ive meet came from highly religous households. Same can be said with non religous.
Kids are raised believeing they have no responsibilitys. This is a very christian(forgive me jesus,wohoo no more guilt!)/ capitalist( if it benefits me screw the mass's) thing to do.
Most sluty girls come from broken familys and have daddy complex's.
People that listen to rap music are up to no good.(its true)
I(and everyone else i knew) could buy drugs far easier then beer.
Kids that grew up in strict households ended up going bad pretty quick.(the whole rebelion thing). While kids in super relaxed households didnt do much better( always did bad things to get noticed by their parents).
Most divorced familys were highly religous.My family is atheist and me and my brother are the most respectfull kids you will meet off the internet(i like messing with people on the net for kicks because its harmless fun).
oh and for all you nutjobs out their that think its because we dont dance around and pray to cloud gods we created in our image. Ever since they added "under god" to the pledge of alligance in the late 50s are kids have gotten worse i say!
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Sounds like there's no hope Frogman :) It's all Barney's fauly!
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barney got them into that damn rap music.
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Given the choice between rap/hiphop and country/western... I'll take the former. :D