Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: hawk220 on April 18, 2003, 09:18:23 AM
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Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
yes/no?
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No, Iraq will be forgotten soon, with the Anti-Syria campaign started in theese days ;)
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No.
Iraq has WMD's and has used them in the past. That fact alone means they have the capability.
The USA could destroy all its nuke arsenal. And rebuild it in less than 4 months if they wanted to.
The danger comes from the Iraqi WMD program, not the actual, physical possession of those weapons.
And its why Coalition troops are swarming the country digging up the production facilities and personnel involved in the WMD production/development.
Think about it, Saddam's best strategy would have been to DESTROY his WMD's before he got overrun (and he knew he was going to lose), so that the US would look like assess in the international public opinion (PUBLIC, as in the people of other nations. All governments know that it doesnt matter if Iraq has these weapons or not, its their populace that has to be riled up).
Then, the US led invasion would be seen as an unwarranted aggression which was not UN sanctioned. In short, US credibility goes to the crapper.
And this is happening now.
I hate to say this, but the US may have pulled another vietnam-like defeat here. Thankfully the coalition casualties were very light and they soundly defeated the enemy in military terms...but the political war, it seems, has been won by Saddam :(
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What OIO said.
The problem is that media will manipulate public opinion in the nessesary direction. Saddam will be "a bloody dictator with WMD" regardless to what they'll find.
And as soon as the first oil tanker will leave Um-Quassr - noone will care about public opinion.
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have to agree with OIO.. well said
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Originally posted by hawk220
Do weapons of mass destruction have to be found in Iraq to justify the war?
yes/no?
Sorry, but yes/no won't do. The discovery of weapons of mass destruction would still not validate our invasion of Iraq.
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Originally posted by Arfann
Sorry, but yes/no won't do. The discovery of weapons of mass destruction would still not validate our invasion of Iraq.
Do us a favor and cross you're leg's pinch you're nose and fart.
Maybe you will clear you're mind.'
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Originally posted by rc51
Do us a favor and cross you're leg's pinch you're nose and fart.
Maybe you will clear you're mind.'
Geez, what a brilliant come back. So clear and well stated. If I were you, I'd run and show my prized work to my father, mother, aunt, uncle, brother, sister, and cousins. That's a total of two people, right?
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he shoots... he scoooooooooooores
talk about leaving a mark!
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No but i do want to tell my girlfriend.
tell you're mother to call me later.
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Originally posted by rc51
No but i do want to tell my girlfriend.
tell you're mother to call me later.
Wow! And a necrophile to boot. I buried Mom back in '74. But thanks for asking.
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Originally posted by Arfann
The discovery of weapons of mass destruction would still not validate our invasion of Iraq.
As I said in the other thread where you called the invasion of Iraq illegal, you really should research this.
You'll find this statement and the previous one quite false.
-SW
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sorry bout you're mother dude.
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Originally posted by rc51
sorry bout you're mother dude.
NP. You certainly had no way of knowing.
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well it was a silly comment for me to make.
I just could not think of a better come back at the time LOL.
;)
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"noone will care about public opinion."
I disagree.
The public of the western powers will "forget" about it in about 2 months after the war is over and/or the coalition forces leave Iraq. The reasons are simple: Its over and jumping and screaming does not pay their bills and it doesnt really affect their lives or pride. All those protesters are indeed "useful idiots" as Stalin (or was it Lenin?) once said.
But the Arab public opinion, thats the powder keg. They hold grudges dating back to the 12th century. Their governments keep them under control by directing their anger towards the west. The west is responsible for their poverty, for everything. Then you get an even deadlier mix into the pot.. religion. Stomping Saddam is = to stomping Islam, stomping Bin Laden is = stomping Islam, supporting Israel = stomping Islam... its a very vicious cycle.
If there is ONE thing that I hope the Iraqis get from this, is the SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. That one thing alone is what has those arab/islamic countries so fuked up imo.
Invading Iraq just added a few lbs of TNT to the keg. And that will in turn generate more terrorrists which may pop up more al-queida type groups.. properly funded and supported under the table by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, etc.
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Easiest defensive strategy for a "Your Momma" attack is the tried and true.. "she's dead" retort.
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What OIO said makes alot of sense.
I think what happens in Iraq over the next year will determine success. But saddam is gone and sanctions will be lifted, so results so far seem positive to me.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Easiest defensive strategy for a "Your Momma" attack is the tried and true.. "she's dead" retort.
In this case it's true. But thanks for playing.
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No. the fact that Saddam signed a cease-fire agreement after committing aggression in 1990 and broke the terms thereof justifies his removal and the liberation of his victims.
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Hiya's,
No
Check previous UN res's
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I can't give an answer to this just yet. I'm pondering, and it's probably too early to say. The war has turned out pretty much as I expected - including the fact that Saddam has not been taken alive. Quite how the 55 most wanted have disappeared without trace is a mystery to me. But I think the CIA knows more than the public is being told. Quite a lot more.
I tend to view this war as Part 2 of 2. Part 1 was in 1991, of course. We stopped the war, on condition that certain conditions were met. The conditions were not met, and so we were justified in going back in. No fresh 2003 UN mandate required.
The BIG mistake was not finishing the job in 1991.
RC51 - you forgot to post a picture of your gun. :rolleyes: :D :p
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lol @ this war and this thread.
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Originally posted by Rasker
No. the fact that Saddam signed a cease-fire agreement after committing aggression in 1990 and broke the terms thereof justifies his removal and the liberation of his victims.
And, by God, we gonna free them little off-white dudes if we gotta kill every last one in the process!!
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Originally posted by Arfann
And, by God, we gonna free them little off-white dudes if we gotta kill every last one in the process!!
collateral damage has been light. The majority of Iraqis support us being there.
The bottom line is, that Iraq will become one less country that it is easy to launch terrorist aggression from.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Your inability to post anything but your unsupported opinion shows you have no basis for forming it on your own.
Originally posted by Martlet
The majority of Iraqis support us being there.
Martlet, you make this too easy.
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Originally posted by OIO
"noone will care about public opinion."
I disagree.
The public of the western powers will "forget" about it in about 2 months after the war is over and/or the coalition forces leave Iraq. The reasons are simple: Its over and jumping and screaming does not pay their bills and it doesnt really affect their lives or pride. All those protesters are indeed "useful idiots" as Stalin (or was it Lenin?) once said.
But the Arab public opinion, thats the powder keg. They hold grudges dating back to the 12th century. Their governments keep them under control by directing their anger towards the west. The west is responsible for their poverty, for everything. Then you get an even deadlier mix into the pot.. religion. Stomping Saddam is = to stomping Islam, stomping Bin Laden is = stomping Islam, supporting Israel = stomping Islam... its a very vicious cycle.
If there is ONE thing that I hope the Iraqis get from this, is the SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. That one thing alone is what has those arab/islamic countries so fuked up imo.
Invading Iraq just added a few lbs of TNT to the keg. And that will in turn generate more terrorrists which may pop up more al-queida type groups.. properly funded and supported under the table by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, etc.
Change a few words and most of the above can directly apply to western govn'ts and cultures. Except maybe that the church now plays a much smaller role in todays govn't and the corporations pretty much are lead policy makers.
The only difference being it's acceptable for western govn'ts to invade and export and endorse terrorism and use WMD but not the other way around.
Might as well just pull down your pants and bendover and wait for the bite with policies like that.
I'm just not looking forward to the next long weekend gas hikes, war over oil is great cause it's cheap as hell when it's going on.
ops back on topic....
WDM in Iraq of course there is... will they be found, just go there and take a depth breath and report back in a few years.
Iraq must glow in the dark now with all the DU and chemical and biological debris from three wars, i feel sorry for the people especially the children since some cancer rates have gone up over 1000% and with no modern medicines or facilities to easy their suffering.
Not only Iraqi's are suffering many thousands of coalition troops were exposed to chemical agents during the GufWar in '91. Saddam didn't use WMD in the Gulf War is was the bombing and destroying of the stored caches and the resulting fallout which exposed the majority of the troops.
Adding to that the GulfWar Veterans Assiciation has recently asked for Rumsfeld to resign over the whole WDM dealings with Iraq.
The govn'ts and companies invovled in giving Saddam the technology to justify a war should be held accountable for their actions if not withdrawn from any further dealings with Iraq. WMD are cheap you can have buy a good biological arsenal for under $2000 it's the equipment to manufacture the base stock that is were the money is.
Greed it makes the world go around and around and around...
no that's oil stupid!
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Originally posted by Martlet
collateral damage has been light. The majority of Iraqis support us being there.
The bottom line is, that Iraq will become one less country that it is easy to launch terrorist aggression from.
Define "light". You see a hundred or so US and a few thousand Iraqi deaths and you see "light" numbers. I gotta assume you never saw up close and personal what casualties look (and smell) like. That's a bunch and a group for zero gain.
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No
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Any WMD found in Iraq will have been planted there by the CIA and PNAC, I triple guarantee you!
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Originally posted by Arfann
Define "light". You see a hundred or so US and a few thousand Iraqi deaths and you see "light" numbers. I gotta assume you never saw up close and personal what casualties look (and smell) like. That's a bunch and a group for zero gain.
You know what happens when you "assume".
For the campaign waged, 100+ casualties is light. You've obviously never been in combat.
I'm not going to debate your "0 gain" idiocracy again.
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Originally posted by Martlet
The majority of Iraqis support us being there.
Unfortunately, time is of the essence. We need to expedite our plans for a new government. The sooner we leave, the better we look. They supported our cause, but they don't want us to stay. I think if we can improve living conditions quickly, that can help in their tolerance of our presence. If we stay too long it will seem to be occupation to them, and support will begin to erode.
There will be a struggle for power. Those who oppose the U.S. backed government factions will use "occupation" as a rally cry. Sure the war was not about oil, but the bottom line is whoever gains control of the government, gains control of that oil. Some say their oil is of better quality and easier to extract than that of saudi arabia. I believe they are also a member of OPEC? There is alot at stake here. Hundreds of billions. And everyone and their mother is gonna want a piece of the pie.The war was the easy part. Now comes the hard part.
I'm no expert on the middle east, and I could be totally wrong. That is just my opinion. In all honesty, I don't know what to expect, and that worries me more than anything.
WMD? It is clear they either destroyed them, or exported them. Success will not be measured by that.
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The US was saying they should go in cause the inspectors had failed to find anything. Therefore proving that the Iraqis were not complying....There for they will just say that the lack of any evidence just proves that Syria is involved. And they will invade them.To the US public apperently the lack of any evidence is the best proof that there is something to hide.
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With the removal of saddam, the quick ending to the war, a government for the people, the lifting of U.N. sanctions, and the ability for for Iraq to prosper, I'de say it was successful. WMD or not.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Unfortunately, time is of the essence. We need to expedite our plans for a new government. The sooner we leave, the better we look. They supported our cause, but they don't want us to stay. I think if we can improve living conditions quickly, that can help in their tolerance of our presence. If we stay too long it will seem to be occupation to them, and support will begin to erode.
There will be a struggle for power. Those who oppose the U.S. backed government factions will use "occupation" as a rally cry. Sure the war was not about oil, but the bottom line is whoever gains control of the government, gains control of that oil. Some say their oil is of better quality and easier to extract than that of saudi arabia. I believe they are also a member of OPEC? There is alot at stake here. Hundreds of billions. And everyone and their mother is gonna want a piece of the pie.The war was the easy part. Now comes the hard part.
I'm no expert on the middle east, and I could be totally wrong. That is just my opinion. In all honesty, I don't know what to expect, and that worries me more than anything.
WMD? It is clear they either destroyed them, or exported them. Success will not be measured by that.
I agree, however that may not neccessarily happen.
Our country, regardless of what people think about it, is pretty close to as good a system as you'll get. Here's why.
Most people (you, me, and the average schmo) like recognition and power. It's natural. And when you get it, you don't want to give it up. This is one of the things that make dictators. While most people have the morals to step down, rather than murder to retain their position, some don't. They get into power, usually legitimately (through election or popular appointment), then illegally and forcibly retain their power.
We got lucky. When America was founded, it was founded by a group of guys that HONESTLY wanted the system to work. So they set up a system of checks and balances. They also gave the population a lot of the power. Has every president shared this desire make the system work? Probably not, but the system makes ITSELF work. We had the right people do the right thing initially, and it just perpetuated itself. Any one of the early leaders had a good chance of turning the system into a dictatorship had he really wanted to.
We have to hope the same thing happens in Iraq. It's doubtful in my opinion, though. Whoever takes over has to truly have Iraq's best interests at heart. Chalabi seems to be the front runner now. I have my doubts about his motives. My fears are we removed one dictator, only to end up installing a "better" dictator. Only time will tell.
One of the biggest concers is Iraq's economy. It has the potential to be an extremely rich country. Can they manage that effectively? It's like handing Ft. Knox to a recent college grad, and telling him to "make a budget". It's not that easy, and comes with many temptations.
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Originally posted by Pongo
The US was saying they should go in cause the inspectors had failed to find anything. Therefore proving that the Iraqis were not complying....
The waepons inspectors were not there to look for WMD they were there to verify compliance - and any undiscosed weapons they did stumble upon were a sign of non compliance and a violation of UNSC resolution 1441.
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"...and any undiscosed weapons they did stumble upon were a sign of non compliance and a violation of UNSC resolution 1441."
So with respect to Iraq's violation of 1441, what does it mean if no WMD is ever found?
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Martlet wrote:
You know what happens when you "assume".
For the campaign waged, 100+ casualties is light. You've obviously never been in combat.
I'm not going to debate your "0 gain" idiocracy again.
100+ casualties may be light, but you obviously missed the part about the few thousand Iraqi deaths. Out of which 1878-2325 deaths are civilian (http://iraqbodycount.net/). And many more thousands (there seems to be no numbers about this, guessing there) military casualties.
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Originally posted by Martlet
You know what happens when you "assume".
For the campaign waged, 100+ casualties is light. You've obviously never been in combat.
I'm not going to debate your "0 gain" idiocracy again.
Ah, Rush debating class, lesson 285. When all else fails declare yourself the winner and the game over. You'll lose some points, though for failing to say "Nuff Said!".
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Originally posted by Pongo
The US was saying they should go in cause the inspectors had failed to find anything. Therefore proving that the Iraqis were not complying....There for they will just say that the lack of any evidence just proves that Syria is involved. And they will invade them.To the US public apperently the lack of any evidence is the best proof that there is something to hide.
BOIIIIIING! Give the man a cigar. Such a shame to have to go north of the border for an intelligent assessment. Must be the water down here or something.
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Originally posted by caereth
100+ casualties may be light, but you obviously missed the part about the few thousand Iraqi deaths. Out of which 1878-2325 deaths are civilian (http://iraqbodycount.net/). And many more thousands (there seems to be no numbers about this, guessing there) military casualties.
2325 is extremely light. We took more civilian casualties with the destruction of 2 buildings. (Not implying any connection whatsoever, just putting it in perspective.)
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Originally posted by Pongo
To the US public apperently the lack of any evidence is the best proof that there is something to hide.
It's actually the lack of cooperation and well... see... we know how this goes: Iraq supposed to account for all banned weapons. Iraq supposed to show banned weapons to UN weapons inspectors. Iraq supposed to destroy them underneath UN weapons inspectors supervision. Iraq did none of the above.
To me it's fairly obvious, people see "UN weapons inspectors" and mistakenly assume they are supposed to be in the country inspecting every nook and cranny. They were actually there to have Saddam account for his contraband and destroy it underneath their supervision.
So it's actually pretty clear: The obvious intentional lack of cooperation by Saddam is a pretty damn good indication that there IS something to hide.
-SW
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Holden McGroin originally wrote:
2325 is extremely light. We took more civilian casualties with the destruction of 2 buildings. (Not implying any connection whatsoever, just putting it in perspective.)
Well, I for one wouldn't call the losses in your two buildings "light".
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Originally posted by caereth
Well, I for one wouldn't call the losses in your two buildings "light".
For a terrorist action, hopefully in 20 years we will still consider WTC to be heavy losses, but in war, civilian casulaties of the order of 3000 are very light indeed.
Compare Dresden or Shanghai, Stalingrad or Tokyo, and the casualties measured in the 100's of thousands.
That was my point.
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Caereth, those casualties are light in terms of a military conflict. They are not however, light in the view of a terrorrist action.
There is a big difference between having 250 thousand troops fighting for a week , to having some lunatic in a cockpit for 30 minutes.
IMO, the Iraqi population was LUCKY that it was the US/UK/Australia leading the invasion instead of China, Russia or India ; or else the Iraqi land wouldve been shelled, bombed and shot at indiscrimenately with hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million or more civilian casualties. Those countries dont have precision weapon or the need to use them... leveling Baghdad just because their enemy was there wouldve been de facto policy.
In fact, Iraq could very well be the first country to ever emerge from a total defeat with less than 2% of its total civilian population killed.
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Originally posted by OIO
IMO, the Iraqi population was LUCKY
Yeah, lucky. That's egg-zackly what I think. Lucky to lose a tyrant and be occuppied by the U S of A. And we're in it just to help them out, don' t ya know. No, really, we haven't the vaguest notion of doing ya wrong, little brown dudes!
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Arfann that was an incredibly racist statement you just made...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Arfann that was an incredibly racist statement you just made...
Shucks, I'm glad ya noticed. There may be hope for you yet.
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Arfann the way you have been posting lately really makes it seem that you want it and all the other bad things to happend - at least thats how you come across. Its one thing to be sceptical and to question but the way you have been behaving is something beyond that. There is a kind of unfounded fatalistic certainty and hatred in how you present your arguments so that you come off as if you want all these bad things to come true if for no other reason than to make the usa look bad and allow you to proclaim that you were right all along with no real regard for the iraqi people. The fact that you equate the current US military presence to the full horrors saddams regime is pretty clear evidence of your radicalism and your wish that the we indeed become like saddam.
I think I should feel sorry for you, there is so much hate in your words and so much anger - I dont know where it comes from.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Arfann the way you have been posting lately really makes it seem that you want it and all the other bad things to happend - at least thats how you come across. Its one thing to be sceptical and to question but the way you have been behaving is something beyond that. There is a kind of unfounded fatalistic certainty and hatred in how you present your arguments so that you come off as if you want all these bad things to come true if for no other reason than to make the usa look bad and allow you to proclaim that you were right all along with no real regard for the iraqi people. The fact that you equate the current US military presence to the full horrors saddams regime is pretty clear evidence of your radicalism and your wish that the we indeed become like saddam.
I think I should feel sorry for you, there is so much hate in your words and so much anger - I dont know where it comes from.
First, allow me to state the obvious. There is nothing I would like more than to be proven wrong in my suspicions about Dubya and friends.
Second, the only reason I sound hateful is that most folks are only accustomed to hearing forceful absolutisms in the rhetoric of the hardcore right. It didn't sound unusual to hear BS about "Slick Willie", but speak out against the policies of Dubya and friends and you are out of line. I speak out in the way I do to refute this trend. Trust me, it's not just the online forums that are offended by my attitude. My normal social circle is filled with gun, knife, WW2 flight sim, and high level manufacturing business persons. These folks will be even quicker than you are to say "I told you so" if Iraq turns into the model of Democracy for the Middle East our administration says it will be.
Third, I bought into the rhetoric of war in the sixties. If you were around then, you may remember that the government and general public were all for me and others of my generation to run off into harms way. For me it took over 2 years under the gun to realize what a crock of crap it all was. I came home much more skeptical of what my government says and does. It's a classic case of "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me". If my words will make at least one person actually stop and think rather than join in with the lemmings I will be very pleased.
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But dont you allow for the fact that we as a country have learned from the problems in vietnam?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But dont you allow for the fact that we as a country have learned from the problems in vietnam?
Well, I had hoped that we had. But here we go again, losing and taking lives with "might makes right diplomacy", giving up rights including free speech, castigating anyone who dares question the pres. Makes me want to puke. Excuse me . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . There, now I feel better.
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Who in the government is opressing your feee speech? Is anyone preventing you from protesting? You dont consider disagreement with your opionions, especilally yourt more extreme ones, to be censorship or giving up free speech rights do you?
Maybe you just have to accept there is a genuine difference of opinion amongst the american people regarding this war, rougly 70% support it and 30% oppose it according to most opionon polls.
Since you brought up the stupid hatred of clinton in the 90s I have to ask if you think clintons allies just stood back and never responed and did not get angry, hillary clinton even called it a vast right wing conspiracy. What I'm saying why did you not remember that when complaining that people who disagree with buush are now uniquiely attacked or criticized.
BTW bill clinton also attacked and inavad a soverign nation without UN approval and that was a nation that only killed its own civilans and that posed absolutely no threat to the USA whatsover - what did you feel about that?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Who in the government is opressing your feee speech? Is anyone preventing you from protesting? You dont consider disagreement with your opionions, especilally yourt more extreme ones, to be censorship or giving up free speech rights do you?
Maybe you just have to accept there is a genuine difference of opinion amongst the american people regarding this war, rougly 70% support it and 30% oppose it according to most opionon polls.
Since you brought up the stupid hatred of clinton in the 90s I have to ask if you think clintons allies just stood back and never responed and did not get angry, hillary clinton even called it a vast right wing conspiracy. What I'm saying why did you not remember that when complaining that people who disagree with buush are now uniquiely attacked or criticized.
BTW bill clinton also attacked and inavad a soverign nation without UN approval and that was a nation that only killed its own civilans and that posed absolutely no threat to the USA whatsover - what did you feel about that?
Reckon I can concede the "free speech" point. Pin heads rising up attempting to shout down any opinion contrary to Dubya's is actually just them using their rights.
Re: opinion polls. These are the same American people who keep reality tv and hip-hop music at the top of the charts, right? Say no more.
Re: Clinton. I'm no Clinton apologist, and Hillary is a twit. And I felt the same about it as I do about Dubya's invasion of Iraq. It's a problem, but not our problem.
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Re: opinion polls. These are the same American people who keep reality tv and hip-hop music at the top of the charts, right? Say no more.
LMAO!!! couldn't agree more !!!
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"Re: opinion polls. These are the same American people who keep reality tv and hip-hop music at the top of the charts, right? Say no more."
Yea but thats becouse you are prolly an older guy. Both of us know that back in the 1950s and early 1960s the older guys of that time prolly thought the music you loved was stupid too. :)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"Re: opinion polls. These are the same American people who keep reality tv and hip-hop music at the top of the charts, right? Say no more."
Yea but thats becouse you are prolly an older guy. Both of us know that back in the 1950s and early 1960s the older guys of that time prolly thought the music you loved was stupid too. :)
Actually, I hated the "bubble gum" pap that has evolved into hip-hop. I was more into serious music, like Bethoven, Brahms, Hendrix, and Zappa.
Clapton is God
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Originally posted by Arfann
Hendrix, and Zappa.
Aha!
"Counter-culture hippie slacker druggie degenerates I say, my god whats this country coming to, back in my day we listend to real music - swinging to the big band masters and jazz."
Sgt. Joe America
WW2 Veteran :)
You see my point arfann? And thats prolly what many WW2 veterans would have thought of the music you loved like Hendrix and Zappa. And surely we all respect the american WW2 generation, no? Just about timing, just about timing.
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In the beginning I felt that WMD needed to be found to justify our actions. However, if stories like this can be proven true then they are enough.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=68&ncid=68&e=3&u=/nyt/20030421/ts_nyt/illicit_arms_kept_till_eve_of_war__an_iraqi_scientist_is_said_to_assert
the link is too long for the BB, will look for another
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/21/international/worldspecial/21CHEM.html?ex=1051588800&en=e735bc70e8b3fd77&ei=5071&partner=CNN
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point about the music.. most of todays' just plain sucks.
this is from a musicians point of view..
no talent, no soul.. cookie cutter hit-formula music
notice how many 'new' artists are using old songs for their hits.
it began with bubble-gum, progressed through hip hop and rap and continues today. most of today's 'artists' can't even read music, let alone write it.
it's all about the record companies and radio play-lists today
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Is it weapons of MASS destruction???? Woha. I thought they were searching for weapons of bellybutton destruction. You know, I was wondering what the UN had against butt plugs. Now it all makes sense to me.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Aha!
"And surely we all respect the american WW2 generation, no?
Only enough to dress up in AAF uniform and travel around to airshows in a T-6. Oh, and be one of the original participants and organizers of the "In Their Honor" open house and airshow here in Colorado Springs. In past we have invited our friends to come here on Vet's day and have put up as many as 25 T-6's and C-45's over the Vet's day parade.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yea but thats becouse you are prolly an older guy. Both of us know that back in the 1950s and early 1960s the older guys of that time prolly thought the music you loved was stupid too. :)
Yep...in the '50s and 60's our music was critiqued as being loud and causing the youth to girate on the dance floor in an obscene manner.
I wonder what kind of backlash early rock n' roll would have gotten then if the lyrics included killing cops, knocking ho's around and being anti-social in general....and talk about obscene dancing:rolleyes:
I tollerate todays hiphop music though....just long enough to change the radio station....hiphop will never be played in my home or car while I'm alive, that's a fact.
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Bush & Co are one big BAG OF LIES.
Told ya before the war. Nothing has changed.
I'm not proud that they haven't found WMDs yet because it's a political desaster and i have no idea how to repair this :(
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Speaking of a butt plug. heeeeeeres blitz!
Blitz knows ALL about them as they are at eye level for him.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Speaking of a butt plug. heeeeeeres blitz!
Blitz knows ALL about them as they are at eye level for him.
Lol, don't get nervous marvi, it's still possible your CIA guys will 'find' Saddams huge WMD ressources :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by blitz
Lol, don't get nervous marvi, it's still possible your CIA guys will 'find' Saddams huge WMD ressources :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain
ridiculous
It's Mr. Mav or Mr. Maverick to you. I have no idea who this marvi you spoke of is.
As to the WMD, the news today was rather entertaining wasn't it. The whole deal isn't over yet and the fat lady isn't even close to warming up for her song.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
It's Mr. Mav or Mr. Maverick to you. I have no idea who this marvi you spoke of is.
As to the WMD, the news today was rather entertaining wasn't it. The whole deal isn't over yet and the fat lady isn't even close to warming up for her song.
He, he, marvi, tell ya a secret, psssssssssssssssssst.
Saddam has his WMDs in his pocket while escaping!!!! :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
-
Ya gotta do better than that fritzy, or is it fluffy?
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Ya gotta do better than that fritzy, or is it fluffy?
You can tell he realizes any argument he ever had is out the window. He's just posting nonsense now.
-
Ahhh info minstrel Blitz is here, again...
Gooooooooooooooood Morning Iraaaaaaq!
Mr Information Minstrel Blitz (nee Sahaf) has shown up to give us cheerful news of the infidel's impending disaster! Later on he will give us his tour of the airport and of Baghdads steadfast defenses before which the mercinaries commited suicide and roasted their stomachs.
:p
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Originally posted by Martlet
You can tell he realizes any argument he ever had is out the window. He's just posting nonsense now.
Hallo marti, did ya homework and found Saddams huge WMD ressources while i was on the coast as a lazybone?
Don't wanna tell me ya government attacked a sovereign country just for some gazelle hunting, don't ya? :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by blitz
Hallo marti, did ya homework and found Saddams huge WMD ressources while i was on the coast as a lazybone?
Don't wanna tell me ya government attacked a sovereign country just for some gazelle hunting, don't ya? :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
No, we did it for the oil.
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Originally posted by Martlet
No, we did it for the oil.
Alright, didn't know Bush had the balls to admit that, finally. WTG at least, then. Had a wrong opinion about him , i have to admit, then .
4 days can be long ...... :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
-
wow.. I actually had to add someone to my ignore list
awesome
-
Glad to see you learned your lesson. :rolleyes: *chuckle*
I bet next time will be longer. :D
-
Arlo, what happened to that picture of the effeminate European dude you posted? I'm taking a group of Boy Scouts to Europe and needed that picture to show them the type of men to avoid in European public restrooms. Would you repost it please?
-
(http://www.gawth.com/~desolate/dieter.jpg)
Today on Sprockets ve haf some special entertainment. Zey make my nipples burst vith anxiety and pulsate vith repressed sexual orgasmic energy. ROT! I luf zem. [/size]
(http://www.sdmm.de/bilder/sdmm_rot.jpg)
Darkness surrounds us / Scattered lights Only the night or is it the end of earth? Lotta pairs of eyes / Stare at us
Lightning and thunder / Now the inferno starts We stamp without grace / The beats goad us on Nobody guessed / But now here we are
Never call us ****in' loosers
Risen from darkness / Came back to life
Resisted your laughter / Prejudices we'll destroy Where was your support / We made it alone So now get your bellybutton off / Damned hypocrites No matter who / No matter what
Nothing will stop us / We want to the top You called us failures / Open your eyes
We're on the way / Don't you realize
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Who in the government is opressing your feee speech? Is anyone preventing you from protesting? You dont consider disagreement with your opionions, especilally yourt more extreme ones, to be censorship or giving up free speech rights do you?
Grun, government aside, reread objectively the above 10 posts, the ones in answer to Blit's first.
I mean, I can disagree with what Blitz say, but the "burn the witch" and personal attacks above?
Why not discuss the arguments, if any, or simply ignore him?
Why, instead, attacking him personally?
It's this REALLY, speech freedom?
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Originally posted by Naso
Grun, government aside, reread objectively the above 10 posts, the ones in answer to Blit's first.
I mean, I can disagree with what Blitz say, but the "burn the witch" and personal attacks above?
Why not discuss the arguments, if any, or simply ignore him?
Why, instead, attacking him personally?
It's this REALLY, speech freedom?
Blitch has earned all he gets. His asinine posts with no content, are merely to incite flames. We just give him what he wants.
-
You can't justify war
-
Originally posted by Martlet
Blitch has earned all he gets. His asinine posts with no content, are merely to incite flames. We just give him what he wants.
Check your signature, man.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen10
You can't justify war
Words of wisdom.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Blitch has earned all he gets. His asinine posts with no content, are merely to incite flames. We just give him what he wants.
See, Naso, scratch Gruni and Marti bleeds. You didn't really think they're two different people, did ya?
-
Originally posted by Arfann
See, Naso, scratch Gruni and Marti bleeds. You didn't really think they're two different people, did ya?
Yeah.... sometime I guess........ naaa... nevermind. :D
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Originally posted by Naso
Grun, government aside, reread objectively the above 10 posts, the ones in answer to Blit's first.
I mean, I can disagree with what Blitz say, but the "burn the witch" and personal attacks above?
Why not discuss the arguments, if any, or simply ignore him?
Why, instead, attacking him personally?
It's this REALLY, speech freedom?
Yes it is. Blitz comes in here saying the USA is pure evil the worst since Hitler and he will be treated the way he is. Why do you left wing eurotypes consider disagreement and criticism to be some sort of censorship?
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Originally posted by Arfann
Yeah, lucky. That's egg-zackly what I think. Lucky to lose a tyrant and be occuppied by the U S of A. And we're in it just to help them out, don' t ya know. No, really, we haven't the vaguest notion of doing ya wrong, little brown dudes!
Well, please tell me why you think we're there.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen10
You can't justify war
Really?
Then in you opinion WW2 was not justified?
-
YES.....
ya better find some...cause you started this war claiming WMD's.....
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Originally posted by SLO
YES.....
ya better find some...cause you started this war claiming WMD's.....
or else what? you'll bleed on us?
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes it is. Blitz comes in here saying the USA is pure evil the worst since Hitler and he will be treated the way he is. Why do you left wing eurotypes consider disagreement and criticism to be some sort of censorship?
disagreement and criticism are good, when you are discussing the ideas and/or opinions.
it's the personal attacks that are too close to censorship.
Discuss the ideas, not the people.
I am not precisely a leftwing, btw.
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Originally posted by blitz
Bush & Co are one big BAG OF LIES.
How would you categorize this Naso, discussion of ideas or personal attack?
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Originally posted by AKIron
How would you categorize this Naso, discussion of ideas or personal attack?
That was a personal attack on Bush and his staff.
Not on Martlet, maverik, Grunherz, or you.
But, if you feel to be an extention of mr. Bush, you can feel offended.
Individuality, where are you gone.... ;)
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Originally posted by Rude
Well, please tell me why you think we're there.
We're obviously there to bring peace to the region. We run amok pissing everyone off so they'll forget their petty differences and focus on us as the common enemy. Of course this will lead to more terrorist attacks on us, giving Dubya an excuse to further build on the powers of his "regime" and rape our wilderness areas for oil. Or maybe we just enjoy blowing up brown people.
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Originally posted by Arfann
We're obviously there to bring peace to the region. We run amok pissing everyone off so they'll forget their petty differences and focus on us as the common enemy. Of course this will lead to more terrorist attacks on us, giving Dubya an excuse to further build on the powers of his "regime" and rape our wilderness areas for oil. Or maybe we just enjoy blowing up brown people.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Originally posted by Arfann
We're obviously there to bring peace to the region. We run amok pissing everyone off so they'll forget their petty differences and focus on us as the common enemy. Of course this will lead to more terrorist attacks on us, giving Dubya an excuse to further build on the powers of his "regime" and rape our wilderness areas for oil. Or maybe we just enjoy blowing up brown people.
Wow!
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Originally posted by Arfann
We're obviously there to bring peace to the region. We run amok pissing everyone off so they'll forget their petty differences and focus on us as the common enemy. Of course this will lead to more terrorist attacks on us, giving Dubya an excuse to further build on the powers of his "regime" and rape our wilderness areas for oil. Or maybe we just enjoy blowing up brown people.
As a somewhat "brown person" here, albeit from a different part of the globe as the mideast, just when can I expect to be blown??? :rolleyes: Is this an expression of YOUR prejudice here arfan???
-
Yes the guy has major racist issues when it comes to "brown" people, he seems to think they are mindless savages bent on murder and debauchery.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
As a somewhat "brown person" here, albeit from a different part of the globe as the mideast, just when can I expect to be blown??? :rolleyes: ???
You mean if we're brown we get blown?? KEWL!! Cya guys, I'm on my way to the tanning salon. :)
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Originally posted by Maverick
As a somewhat "brown person" here, albeit from a different part of the globe as the mideast, just when can I expect to be blown??? :rolleyes: Is this an expression of YOUR prejudice here arfan???
The "brown people" comments are brought about by a comment a friend of mine made recently that since WW2 we, as a nation, seem predisposed to blowing up brown people. Insightful or inciteful, take your choice.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes the guy has major racist issues when it comes to "brown" people, he seems to think they are mindless savages bent on murder and debauchery.
When I want something "brown" from you I'll scrape it off your teeth.
And when did debauchery enter the picture? Sounds like you got issues, little man.
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Reduced to insults allready? I thought you were above that...
Anyway isnt it funny how people are starting to pick up on your blantant racism and prejudices.....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Reduced to insults allready? I thought you were above that...
Anyway isnt it funny how people are starting to pick up on your blantant racism and prejudices.....
Well, yeah, any of them that believe your statements on my behalf. If they dat stoopid, who needs 'em? I ain't debating to please them, or you, anyway. Kinda funny that the foulest insulting mouth is the first to cry foul.
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I dont care if you insult me, but you should seeing how much fuss you made about me insulting you..
So now you are calling people ignorant because they were offended by your racism...
-
Hey Grunherz and Arfann- There's only one way to settle this- a duel to the death. Pick either knives, guns or hatchets and meet in Las Vegas (cheap air fare to get there) and settle it like men.
Unless, of course, you're chicken.............:eek:
-
Originally posted by AKIron
or else what? you'll bleed on us?
usual handsomehunk answer from you....:D
-
I'm afraid he would bomb me, I'm from the mediterranion and when tan I get kinda brown like..
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Originally posted by Airhead
Hey Grunherz and Arfann- There's only one way to settle this- a duel to the death. Pick either knives, guns or hatchets and meet in Las Vegas (cheap air fare to get there) and settle it like men.
Unless, of course, you're chicken.............:eek:
Actually, I abhor violence. But I'm awfully good at it. Got lots of practice in the 60's bombing . . . . . . . err. . . . . . . . ah, brownish yellow people.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm afraid he would bomb me, I'm from the mediterranion and when tan I get kinda brown like..
Mmmmm. Brown chicken. Think I'll do KFC honey barbecue for lunch.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes it is. Blitz comes in here saying the USA is pure evil the worst since Hitler and he will be treated the way he is. Why do you left wing eurotypes consider disagreement and criticism to be some sort of censorship?
Heh, Pappnase, never said that!!
I said USA has an evil government that invaded a sovereign country against the worlds, UN, Security Council, Popes , most allies opinion. I also said Bush & Co are a bunch of Liars who betrayed the world and the americans. The language they use reminds me of fanatic idiots, not of politicians.
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
-
Hi Blitz, On probation?, how come:? :D
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Hi Blitz, On probation?, how come:? :D
Nobody, who doesn't know history very well, likes an highly admireed politician as Henry A. Kissinger being called a Warcriminal for all the evil he did in Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile and East Timor :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
-
Ok Blitz, I see, some kind of censorship? By the way, welcome into the "club".
crabofix
-
Go ahead squeeze it one more time carbofix, but make sure to move out of the way quick or blitz will splatter all over you...
-
Originally posted by crabofix
Ok Blitz, I see, some kind of censorship? By the way, welcome into the "club".
crabofix
It's not real censorship, it's a private BBS with mostly american customers. If ya run a business which isn't about politics you have to care about the main ressources.It's more like semi free speech here. Skuzzy has a hell of a job these days, he tries his best and i don't want his job .
Information is a merchandise like donuts or cars, you need to handle it.
Regards Blitz
btw I don't take it personel :)
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
-
Ok, I get it. In the US theres no problem to show a head getting cut of someone in a movie, meanwhile the naked butt gets censored in the next scene. While in europe, the choped of head gets censored? Diffrent ways of seeing what is bad to show.
Crabofix
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Originally posted by crabofix
Ok, I get it. In the US theres no problem to show a head getting cut of someone in a movie, meanwhile the naked butt gets censored in the next scene. While in europe, the choped of head gets censored? Diffrent ways of seeing what is bad to show.
Crabofix
That's Ol' Europe, we are oldfashioned, can't help about it :)
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
-
..
-
Originally posted by SLO
usual handsomehunk answer from you....:D
At least I'm not so dumb I can't tell the difference between an answer and a question. FYI, the questions are the ones with curly lines at the end like this: ?
-
Neither one of you "champions of free speech" know diddly about censorship or freedom of speech in the U.S.
Here's a clue, though:
You can say, write/print, show anything you want that isn't lewd, vulgar, obscene, graphically violent or pornographic in public here. You can say, write/print, show things that are lewd, vulgar, obscene, graphically violent or pornographic to private audiences if the audiences aren't comprised of (in part or whole) minors ... and if the material being presented isn't child pornography ... and still it's at the discretion of the owner.
Movie ratings are used to warn viewers of possible content that they may find offensive. Obviously such content wasn't censored from the film. Movies shown on broadcast television may be edited for content since the audience is obviously broader and not always subject to adult supervision. Cable TV uses a ratings system not unlike theaters.
Private ownership can restrict any content at their own discretion/convenience.
If you have a problem with that then you'll have to live with it. I guess the best way you've found to handle it so far is to cry about how unfair it is as compared to the complete freedom and anarchy you enjoy in the little piece of nirvana you live in. :D
Personally I don't give a rats arse if HTC bans ya, probates ya, makes ya wear a funny hat or adopts ya. I'm all for "freedom of speech". You carry on, I make fun of ya. I like it. ;)
-
Blitz: Hey, we are two swinging guys!
Crabofix: Yes, we will be having sex with you right now!
Blitz: Will you be liking to have sex with me?
Crabofix: Because we are two swinging guys!
Blitz: We will be have sex all the time!
Crabofix: Because we are two....
Blitz and Crabofix, together: Wild and Crazy guys!!!!
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Neither one of you "champions of free speech" know diddly about censorship or freedom of speech in the U.S.
Here's a clue, though:
You can say, write/print, show anything you want that isn't lewd, vulgar, obscene, graphically violent or pornographic in public here. You can say, write/print, show things that are lewd, vulgar, obscene, graphically violent or pornographic to private audiences if the audiences aren't comprised of (in part or whole) minors ... and if the material being presented isn't child pornography ... and still it's at the discretion of the owner.
Movie ratings are used to warn viewers of possible content that they may find offensive. Obviously such content wasn't censored from the film. Movies shown on broadcast television may be edited for content since the audience is obviously broader and not always subject to adult supervision. Cable TV uses a ratings system not unlike theaters.
Private ownership can restrict any content at their own discretion/convenience.
If you have a problem with that then you'll have to live with it. I guess the best way you've found to handle it so far is to cry about how unfair it is as compared to the complete freedom and anarchy you enjoy in the little piece of nirvana you live in. :D
Personally I don't give a rats arse if HTC bans ya, probates ya, makes ya wear a funny hat or adopts ya. I'm all for "freedom of speech". You carry on, I make fun of ya. I like it. ;)
We live with it and laugh about :D
Regards Blitz
btw Most of the new nazi crap literature in Germany is coming from Garry Lauck from Fort Lauderdale :D
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
-
Originally posted by Airhead
Blitz: Hey, we are two swinging guys!
Crabofix: Yes, we will be having sex with you right now!
Blitz: Will you be liking to have sex with me?
Crabofix: Because we are two swinging guys!
Blitz: We will be have sex all the time!
Crabofix: Because we are two....
Blitz and Crabofix, together: Wild and Crazy guys!!!!
Several times when i heard someone on ch 1 in Main spewing: "You're gay", to someone else i just jumped in, telling: "I'm gay, what's your problem? " It's too much fun :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
-
blitz is still here?
thought he'd have found his 'free speech' bbs in Germany by now
-
Originally posted by blitz
We live with it and laugh about
Regards Blitz
btw Most of the new nazi crap literature in Germany is coming from Garry Lauck from Fort Lauderdale
And you're a neo-nazi to boot?
Attempting to make a point about the U.S. not having freedom of speech by revealing that your source of neo-nazi literature is out of Florida was ... ummm .. interesting ... even if somewhat stupid.
You're truly a character, Blitch. :D
-
I hope you are not "the" Arlo Guthrie.
Crabofix
-
Originally posted by crabofix
I hope you are not "the" Arlo Guthrie.
Crabofix
And kid ... I sure hope you're not the crabofix. :D
-
Originally posted by Arlo
And kid ... I sure hope you're not the crabofix. :D
:D
Life is good.
crabofix
-
Originally posted by Arlo
And you're a neo-nazi to boot?
Attempting to make a point about the U.S. not having freedom of speech by revealing that your source of neo-nazi literature is out of Florida was ... ummm .. interesting ... even if somewhat stupid.
You're truly a character, Blitch. :D
I bet you never heard of Garry Lauck.
It's forbidden to publish nazicrap in Germany, so the Neo Nazies need some friends in countries where such crap is aloud, to help them, sad but true.
But Denmark got him when he was on a visit :D
They work together in the NSDAP/AO
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by blitz
I bet you never heard of Garry Lauck.
It's forbidden to publish nazicrap in Germany, so the Neo Nazies need some friends in countries where such crap is (allowed), to help them, sad but true.
What I said was ... in effect ...
1: You make a big `ol stink about how the U.S.A. (aka "The Evil and Oppressive Empire") doesn't actually support freedom of speech and everyone here is controlled by the government through media.
then ...
2: You make a point to tell everyone here that the German government outlaws Neo-Nazi literature and you have to get yours from Florida.
Then I make fun of you because you don't actually know how to make and support a point in a debate.
:D
(http://www.gawth.com/~desolate/dieter.jpg)
Garry Lauck makes my nipples hard. His books make me scream in delicious terror.[/size]
-
Originally posted by Arlo
What I said was ... in effect ...
1: You make a big `ol stink about how the U.S.A. (aka "The Evil and Oppressive Empire") doesn't actually support freedom of speech and everyone here is controlled by the government through media.
then ...
2: You make a point to tell everyone here that the German government outlaws Neo-Nazi literature and you have to get yours from Florida.
Then I make fun of you because you don't actually know how to make and support a point in a debate.
:D
(http://www.gawth.com/~desolate/dieter.jpg)
Garry Lauck makes my nipples hard. His books make me scream in delicious terror.[/size]
Don't get nervous Arlo :D
1. If you like to support nazies who deny Holocaust, go on with it.
2. You would have loved the "GröFaZ"
3. My girlfriend tells me all day :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Oh! Hi, Blitch. I didn't see you standing there talking gibberish at first. My bad. How's your girl, Klaus? Buy ya'll a drink? :D
-
Originally posted by Arlo
Oh! Hi, Blitch. I didn't see you standing there talking gibberish at first. My bad. How's your girl, Klaus? Buy ya'll a drink? :D
Thank you,no, I don't take drinks from nazy supporters!
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by blitz
Thank you,no, I don't take drinks from nazy supporters!
Ahhh .... only the card-carrying "full blown" ones like yourself, eh? You guys are soooo snooty! ;)
Amazing facts:
1: This thread isn't locked yet.
2: I'm not on probation yet. (Shut up, Arlo) :eek:
Disclaimer: I don't hate ya Blitz .. it's just that you're such a loony goof. I have a weakness for poking loony goofs with a stick alot.
No ... really ... it's true, guys.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Ahhh .... only the card-carrying "full blown" ones like yourself, eh? You guys are soooo snooty! ;)
Lol, you love them.
These guys burned down my car in 1980( my trusty Renault R4 ) :(
Was the only time i got a gun.
Regards Blitz
btw They never got me, they're just too dump :D
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
-
Originally posted by blitz
Lol, you love them.
These guys burned down my car in 1980( my trusty Renault R4 ) :(
Well ... that'd be about the only thing I'd like about `em, I reckon. :D ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
Well ... that'd be about the only thing I'd like about `em, I reckon. :D ;)
No love here for nazi terrorist supporters :(
btw Your ideal likes to make fun of gay people first, later they were hunted and tortured in concentration camps.
Better think twice!
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Give it up Blitz, if it weren't for the US acting in Iraq very much like it acted in Germany 50 some odd years ago, you'd likely be a Nazi.
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Originally posted by blitz
No love here for nazi terrorist supporters :(
btw Your ideal likes to make fun of gay people first, later they were hunted and tortured in concentration camps.
Better think twice!
Neh ... I'm not generalizing at all, Dieter. I'm making fun of you. :D
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Originally posted by blitz
Lol, you love them.
These guys burned down my car in 1980( my trusty Renault R4 ) :(
Was the only time i got a gun.
Regards Blitz
btw They never got me, they're just too dump :D
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
"trusty" and "renault" in the same sentence make me laugh.