Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on April 18, 2003, 12:16:10 PM
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BBC Report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2959015.stm)
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They never demonstrated when Hussein was in charge. This prooves that they were much happier then.
ra
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"He is reported to have used his sermon to denounce the American-led invasion, whose purpose, he said, was to defend Israel. "
That's getting old.
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Originally posted by Dowding
BBC Report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2959015.stm)
They want a theocracy to replace Sadam not a democracy. Did you really think that you wouldnt see this being pushed by Iran?
The bottom line is THE MAJORITY do not agree with the demonstrators.
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I think it's important to note that now they CAN demonstrate...without getting shot.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
"He is reported to have used his sermon to denounce the American-led invasion, whose purpose, he said, was to defend Israel. "
That's getting old.
It sure is. How abouts we deal with Israel and Palestine equally so we don't stay in the middle of this mess.
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Originally posted by Krusher
They want a theocracy to replace Sadam not a democracy. Did you really think that you wouldnt see this being pushed by Iran?
The bottom line is THE MAJORITY do not agree with the demonstrators.
Wrong.
The Shiites form 60% of the iraqui population.
And most of them only recognize one man as their leader - Ajatollah Hakim, who is in iranian exile and who wants to establish a theocraty system in Iraq.
The UK has seen this and tried to put a shiite religious puppet into power.
This man, the son of the famous iraqui Ajatollah Khoei and himself a religeous leader lived in british exile and agreed to collaborate with the USA/UK. He even met with Blair, before he was flown to Iraq.
But the plan failed. When he visited the holy shrine in Nadjaf he wasnt celebrated as a new and recognized leader but was attacked by the shiites who were angry that this Quisling dared to enter the mosque. He was killed despite the british escort.
When the US-general Garner hold up this ridiculous meeting in Iraq to consider who becomes next political leader in Iraq the shiites (the majority) was not represented.
Instead the USA favorizes criminals and corrupt people like Charasi (who has to fled from Jordan after he has been convicted to 22years jaiol for cheating).
So there is no wonder why the people - especially the shiites are demonstrating.
They must fear that again some corrupt sunnite arab puppets will be put to power and that they will be suppressed like it alsways was in the short history of Iraq.
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They should just ship all the palestinians to iraq and have their beloved hero Arafat lead them.
Damn im a genious!
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Originally posted by OIO
They should just ship all the palestinians to iraq and have their beloved hero Arafat lead them.
Damn im a genious!
:eek:
It's funny how all these arab countries cry about the palestinians, but won't let them step foot in their country.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
It's funny how all these arab countries cry about the palestinians, but won't let them step foot in their country.
Excellent observation....
It's the heart of the issue, but most people want to avoid it.... ;)
Regards,
Badger
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Originally posted by Sox62
I think it's important to note that now they CAN demonstrate...without getting shot.
Very good point.
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BTW, I'm not making light of the palestinian situation. I've seen how they live and it's not pretty. But it seems the only help they get from their fellow arabs is a vest full of explosives.
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Lets hope the secular Iragis outnumber the Islamic fundementalists.
I wonder about the identity/nationality of the demonstrators - maybe they're from outside - not that we should necessarily do field interrogations on demonstraters.
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I think the western bush haters should take note of these guys.
One of the Iraqi protest posters read:
NO BUSH NO SADDAM YES YES FOR ISLAM
Notice how this differs from the childish western posters like:
BUSH IS HITLER
BUSH IS A TERORIST
NO WAR FOR OIL
The iraqi protestors actually stated opposition to Bush, but they also stated opposition to Saddam which I have yet to see in a western anti war protest, and most importantly they actually offered an alternative - Islam.
Now of course I dont want an Islamic theocracy in Iraq but it does prove these Iraqi people are allready more intillgent and practical than 99% of the ignorant and Childish western Bush hating USA hating anti war communist protestors.
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Words from my friend in Saudi: "Dont get too worked up about a few people burning a flag infront of a camera."
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Interestingly if the U.S. does in fact allow open democratic elections, Osama Bin laden would be president.
That IS a fact..
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Interestingly if the U.S. does in fact allow open democratic elections, Osama Bin laden would be president.
That IS a fact..
LOL
And where did you get this fact? President of what country?
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Interestingly if the U.S. does in fact allow open democratic elections, Osama Bin laden would be president.
That IS a fact..
That's pretty impressive. So, uh, who's gonna be the next president of the US? Also, what grade will I be getting in math this term...I've been kind of stressing that one, so if you could let me know, I'd feel a lot better and would sure appreciate it!
SOB
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:D SOB
While we are at it, 10Bears what numbers should I play for SuperLotto this week?
Hell with that ability I bet you made a killing in the stock market, can you give me some money to pay for school?
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Interestingly if the U.S. does in fact allow open democratic elections, Osama Bin laden would be president.
That IS a fact..
Ya right, like they're gonna vote for someone who is going to get them bombed. They want reform, not war.
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LOL ok that woke you up..
If the Iraqi people were giving the choice between an secular administration and Islamic fundamentalism they would choose the later.. I would bet $100.
Hell with that ability I bet you made a killing in the stock market, can you give me some money to pay for school?
I sure did!!..
No.. this is not a communist country..
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Thats not what you said. You said they would elect Osama Bin Ladean. You said that IS a fact!
So tell me where did you get that information?
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Now you are wording it a little different. If you still think bin laden would win, I would take you up on that bet. The last thing they would vote for is anyone who would pick a fight with the U.S. They are tired of war. Put yourself in their shoes. They have seen the results of a leader who pursues war for the last 20 years. The majority of muslims are not radicals who hunger for war.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
The majority of muslims are not radicals who hunger for war.
Thats a vey good point sixpence. Notice how casually 10bears states that he is 100% sure the majority would pick a radical USA hating milittant muslim extermist as president. But imagine how agitated he would get and call people ignorant uninformed racists if somedody from the right stated that most arabs are hateful radicals out to make trouble with the west.
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I think that what he sees in the media might make him think that way. Alot of what we see from the middle east in the media is that of U.S. hatred. How many flag burnings and anit-U.S. rallies do you see compared to the average arab citizen who just wants peace for his family.
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Thousands demonstrate in anti-Bush march...
........ millions more stand in open-mouthed awe that such demonstration is now not only tolerated, but accepted and no one has their tounge ripped out or is trotted off to prison or the acid baths.
;)
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Originally posted by Toad
Thousands demonstrate in anti-Bush march...
........ millions more stand in open-mouthed awe that such demonstration is now not only tolerated, but accepted and no one has their tounge ripped out or is trotted off to prison or the acid baths.
;)
All lies! Saddam was a kind and gentle father to the iraqi people! May his memory rest in warmly in our hearts...
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Odd, when faced with answering the question, he became suddenly scarece.
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Originally posted by Krusher
They want a theocracy to replace Sadam not a democracy. Did you really think that you wouldnt see this being pushed by Iran?
The bottom line is THE MAJORITY do not agree with the demonstrators.
Who are they? I would expect that
a majority of Iraqis want a democracy,
just as the majority of Iranians want
their parliament to be sovereign. If
by they you mean those who want
there to be a theocracy want a
theocracy you are probably right :)
Basically we need to stand as
guarantors that the Iraqis will have a
free and fair democracy and only
intervene if this is destroyed. This
means allowing them to vote for
people we don't like. If the West
interferes in the process (Iran, 1953
comes to mind), then democracy
won't become established in the
region as it will be seen as just a tool
by which the West can impose its will
by the back door. That would be a
bad thing.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Notice how this differs from the childish western posters like:
BUSH IS HITLER
BUSH IS A TERORIST
NO WAR FOR OIL
Good point. I was dismayed when
I saw the local protest here prior
to the war beginning and there were
no posters reminding people of the
evil that is/was Saddam Hussein.
I've been implaccably (sp?) opposed
to him since he gassed the Kurds in
1988. I worry about the motives for
the war, but I am certainly extremely
glad to see the back of Hussein.
Mind you, Saddam Hussein got
inaccurately compared to Hitler in the
tabloid press a lot, which didn't help
foster rational discussion!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I think the western bush haters should take note of these guys.
One of the Iraqi protest posters read:
NO BUSH NO SADDAM YES YES FOR ISLAM
Notice how this differs from the childish western posters like:
BUSH IS HITLER
BUSH IS A TERORIST
NO WAR FOR OIL
The iraqi protestors actually stated opposition to Bush, but they also stated opposition to Saddam which I have yet to see in a western anti war protest, and most importantly they actually offered an alternative - Islam.
Now of course I dont want an Islamic theocracy in Iraq but it does prove these Iraqi people are allready more intillgent and practical than 99% of the ignorant and Childish western Bush hating USA hating anti war communist protestors.
Hehe. He said Communist. I knew it was just a matter of time 'til the McCarthy came out in him.
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You do know that most of the big anti-war protests in america were organized and funded by old line socialist/communist workers groups or groups with ties to them...
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Originally posted by 10Bears
LOL ok that woke you up..
If the Iraqi people were giving the choice between an secular administration and Islamic fundamentalism they would choose the later.. I would bet $100.
Bet your wrong. Iraq aint no Iran, never was. Historicly secular, still secular (T. Aziz is... err was... christian).
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
You do know that most of the big anti-war protests in america were organized and funded by old line socialist/communist workers groups or groups with ties to them...
You do have a cite for that information don't you?
Or maybe we can all resort to posting unfounded info.
The G W Bush election campaign was actually funded by the Aryan Union. You heard it here first.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
:eek:
It's funny how all these arab countries cry about the palestinians, but won't let them step foot in their country.
It's even more funny that there is no such thing as a "Palestinian"
Most of the land that the "Palestinians" demand as their homeland belonged to Jordan before the 6 day war and you never heard the "Palestinians" demanding a homeland there before 1967.
Israel owns about one tenth of one percent of the land in the middle east, yet the Arabs demand that Israel give up land to the "Palestinians ( i.e. Arabs)
Wonder why the Arabs never offered the "Palestinians" any land?
The fact is, most of the "Palestinians were kicked out of Jordon after they tried to kill the king and overthrow the government.
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Originally posted by UserName
You do have a cite for that information don't you?
Or maybe we can all resort to posting unfounded info.
The G W Bush election campaign was actually funded by the Aryan Union. You heard it here first.
read a few of these articles, then do a google search on some of the names involved. They are all interconnected.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1544
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5802
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Originally posted by Tumor
Bet your wrong. Iraq aint no Iran, never was. Historicly secular, still secular (T. Aziz is... err was... christian).
Lets check the history.
In fact the eastern part of Iraq was once iranian territory. The old capital city of the iranian empires of the parthian and sassanid dynasties (which exisited in total 800 - 900 years), Ktesiphon, lies WEST of Bagdad.
Then the islamic invasion destroyed the iranian Sassanid Empire in the 7th century and Iran was devided for centuries in smaller empires. During this time Bagdad raised to the centre of the arab islam empire - especially during the Abbasid dynasty, but was heavily influenced by iranian culture.
The iranians managed to avoid the arab assimilitation (not so old cultures like the egyptians, syrians or the people in the iraqui area, who gave up their native language and adopted the new arab language for example).
The iranians even modified the islamic religion and created their own version, the shiite islam wheich has many elements of the old iranian zarathustra-religion of the last sassanid empire.
And the people living in the iraq area also adopted the shiite religion instead of the sunnite.
This is the reason, why today that country we call Iraq is the only arab country with a shiite majority.
In the follwing time the area which is today called Iraq was switching between the two powers of the region - the reborn Iranian Empire under the Safawid dynasty and the Ottoman Empire.
This lasted until the WW1 when the Iraq of today was produced by the allies.
From the first day of this country which was created 1921 the shiite majority was excluded from ruling. Instead it was first a british colony/protectorate, then a sunnite arab kingdom and then a sunnite arab "democracy" under Kassem and later Saddam.
During all this time the shiite majority was suppressed. They tried many revolts - one during WW2 with the help of the German Reich - but all these failed.
The last one failed, when Bush sr. asked the shiites 1991 to revolt against Saddam and promised help. They did and the help never came - so again the shiites were butchered by the minority ruling the country. This has not been forgotten.
The most important thing to consider, is the fact that on iraqui territory there are the two most holy shiite places - Kerbala and Nadjaf.
These places are for shiite moslems more important than Medina, Mekka or Jerusalem. The religious leaders in these cities have great influence to the shiite people of Iraq. Also during all the decades of oppression by the sunnite minorities the shiites had one last defense line: their religion.
They were discriminated when they wanted to go to university or to get a good school education.
When they were pressed to the army they were put in badly equipped cannonfodder regiments and treated badly by sunnite officers and were controlled by the secret police and political officers in these troops.
And now the USA had started a meeting to find out the next iraqui president. And not a single shiite representative was present in this meeting.
Instead the USA is favorizing corrupt criminals like Charasi, who has left Iraq decades ago, is nominally a shiite but considered by the iraqui shiites as a traitor and an US-puppet.
So 20000 shiites demonstrated against this on the day of the Garner-meeting.
If Quislings like Charasi would go to a shiite city without military escort he would be killed by the shiites like the UK-puppet Khoei was killed when he dared to visit Nadjaf (even with escort).
No - the majority of the iraqui shiites simply dont trust foreigners or people who are only puppets of foreign regimes. They trust their religion and their religious leaders - and the highest ranking and most respected one is Ajatollah Hakim in iranian exile.
Thats the problem with the shiites and this status has been created during history.
Its right that in the history the modern Iraq (from 1921) has always been a secular state.
But its also right that the shiite majority had never been part of the governments of this Iraq.
That they were suppressed and discriminated by every regime of iraq - british, kingom, republican.
That they were manipulated by foreign regimes to revolt against their governments.
And that they finally developed to a people who only see in a theocratic regime a chance for a better future.
And thats only one of the many problems Iraq will have in next time.
Others - like the kurd problem - will also cause developments which, in my opinion, will lead to a civil war.
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And now the USA had started a meeting to find out the next iraqui president. And not a single shiite representative was present in this meeting.
Provide evidence of that stement. I know one shiite cleric refused to join the meeting, but if you want to make such a bold statement then back it up and do it with multiple sources.
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So - if I am so terribly wrong then it is surely no problem for you to tell some names of shiite representatives on the Garner meeting, who are supported by the iraqui people and not by foreign regimes like the UK-puppet Khoei.
And maybe you can also tell me if I was wrong when I said that 20000 shiites were demonstrating against the Garner-meeting because their religious group - which is the majority in Iraq - was [again] excluded from the future government.
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Why so defensive? Why dont you provide proof that there were none. I simply asked for proof. Should be very easy if you are right. I mean if not a singlr representative for 60% of iraqis population was present at the meeting then that would be noteworth and could be esily proven. No?
Whoa now you have gone even farther. Please also provide proof that any and all Iraqi Shiite representatives were "excluded" as in barred prpohibited from attending, not allowed in, from the meeting.
If you are going to make such bold statements and act like you know so much about it why is it too much for your top show proof, or any sort of supporting evidence - surely if the US military prohibited or excluded any and all representatives for 60% of Iraqs population there would be proof, proof that you could share with us.
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Originally posted by babek-
Wrong.
The Shiites form 60% of the iraqui population.
And most of them only recognize one man as their leader - Ajatollah Hakim, who is in iranian exile and who wants to establish a theocraty system in Iraq.
wrong???? ok whatever you say.
The Shiites have traditionaly had seperation of church and state. Iran is the exception and even they are having serious issues. Consider that the majority of the young (and Iran is a young country) recently polled want the Mullas (spl) to have LESS power over their politics not more. They also want closer ties to America. Even some of the Ajatollah's (spl) are at odds with the ruling Mullas.
The Iranian revolution is crumbling from within. We cant guess how long it will take, but I bet we see it within 10 years or less. They are desperatly trying to export their version of Islam around the middle east and would love to export it to Iran. Our job (the coallition) IMHO is to make damn sure that does not happen. No good can come of a theocracy in Iraq and to fight a war there and allow one to take hold would be a HUGE mistake.
I wont call your opinion wrong I will only say lets agree to disagree.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Bet your wrong. Iraq aint no Iran, never was. Historicly secular, still secular (T. Aziz is... err was... christian).
I bet your right Tumor :)
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Originally posted by NUKE
Most of the land that the "Palestinians" demand as their homeland belonged to Jordan before the 6 day war and you never heard the "Palestinians" demanding a homeland there before 1967.
During the entire 20th century (and before) the arabs in the region commonly referred to as Palestina have strived for independence. Their call for a sovereign state is much older than '67, ask the brits who ruled the region as a protectorate till the creation of Israel after WWII.
And the statement that most of the land the Palinestines demand was Jordan territory before the six-day war is just as idiotic. Large parts of the territory they will settle for in case of a negotiated Palestinian state are in former Jordania. But the regions they see as their homeland are much larger and comprise the majority of the current state of Israel, not just their conquests in the various wars. This is a very important distinction, probably doesn't fit with your stereotypical view of the situation and thus you rather stick to your lopsided and rather misleading comments as quoted above.
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Hmmm...
Babek definetly knows what he is speaking about...
What surprises me is that occupants either show complete ignorance in Eastern affairs, or they have some plan on the development of the situation. "Divide and rule" again. In both cases it is obvious that all the "liberation" and "freedom" rhethorics is a usuall crap that is repeated since late-40s, and noone really cares about Iraqi people... :(
Question to Americans: Are there any special corps of specialists in Moslim psychology and traditions in US army? In Soviet Army there was a special institution of "political officers" educated to work in Moslim environment, specialized in Arab nations, Shiits(Iran), Afghan tribal "politics" etc. I mean not regular "zampolit" types ("shut your mouth and your workplace is clear"), but people educated in this field and often even working with the affairs behind the border...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hmmm...
Question to Americans: Are there any special corps of specialists in Moslim psychology and traditions in US army? In Soviet Army there was a special institution of "political officers" educated to work in Moslim environment, specialized in Arab nations, Shiits(Iran), Afghan tribal "politics" etc. I mean not regular "zampolit" types ("shut your mouth and your workplace is clear"), but people educated in this field and often even working with the affairs behind the border...
You could say that. The US put together a "Free Iraqi Army" composed of Iraqi refugees to the US. Considering they are from Iraq, I'd have to see they are pretty well informed.
It's funny how you'll grab any anti-american angle you can. You should date Arfann when he's old enough.
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it is obvious that all the "liberation" and "freedom" rhethorics is a usuall crap that is repeated since late-40s, and noone really cares about Iraqi people...
Putin does. He opposed this war because he didn't want Iraqi people to suffer. Now he opposes lifting UN sanctions for the same reason. He is a real humanitarian with no interest in oil prices at all.
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Originally posted by Martlet
You could say that. The US put together a "Free Iraqi Army" composed of Iraqi refugees to the US. Considering they are from Iraq, I'd have to see they are pretty well informed.
It's funny how you'll grab any anti-american angle you can. You should date Arfann when he's old enough.
Again you quoted my question and didn't answer it. :(
Being an Iraqi refugee should help understanding the current problems, but all I see is that "refugees" support their own social/ethnic groups. Under current conditions I see an opportunity that intervents will arm one group and start something like a civil war, declaring their opponents "bloody enemies of Democracy", using this worn-out slogan as an excuse.
Another thing that makes some difference is education. Being an Iraqi refugee will not help if not supported by a serious scientific method.
As for being "anti-american" - I just can't imagine what should happen in order to make me support agressors. All words about "liberation" simply make me sick. Especially when spoken by righteous young Party activists.
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Originally posted by ra
Putin does. He opposed this war because he didn't want Iraqi people to suffer. Now he opposes lifting UN sanctions for the same reason. He is a real humanitarian with no interest in oil prices at all.
It's simple: no advantages for the occupant's puppet regime. Lifting sanctions is impossible until intervents will completely withdraw their troops and it will obvious that Iraqi oil industry will stay nationalized.
If we were unable to stop the agressor - we should do the best we can so they will not benefit from their "victory". Next time they will think twice before raping another souverign nation.
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What is even more simple is that the Russian economy is tied directly to the price of oil.
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Originally posted by Dowding
BBC Report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2959015.stm)
I been accused of being anti-bush myself, believe it or not. I say, FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!! They can shave it or not, I'll take it either way.
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Originally posted by Boroda
- I just can't imagine what should happen in order to make me support agressors.
Seems like only yesterday you were singing Stalin's praises, too.
Now you can't support him apparently.
You change so fast it's hard to keep up.
But it's always entertaining.
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Originally posted by ra
What is even more simple is that the Russian economy is tied directly to the price of oil.
So any advantage to occupants is a threat to our wealth. Did you expect Russians watch as they are robbed again? That times have passed, at least I hope so.
You protect your intersts by trying to steal Iraqi oil, and we protect ours by not letting you do it.
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Originally posted by Boroda
So any advantage to occupants is a threat to our wealth. Did you expect Russians watch as they are robbed again? That times have passed, at least I hope so.
You protect your intersts by trying to steal Iraqi oil, and we protect ours by not letting you do it.
pot kettle black.
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Originally posted by Toad
Seems like only yesterday you were singing Stalin's praises, too.
Now you can't support him apparently.
You change so fast it's hard to keep up.
But it's always entertaining.
Toad, you are so pissed off by Stalin because he made an impossible thing of defeating nazism and then recovering after the War so 12 years after the Victory we were ahead of you.
I understood your post that you mean Stalin was an agressor? I bet you meant "Soviet intervention in Poland 1920" again? :D Or have you been told already that evil USSR attacked helpless Hitler in 1941?
Toad, unfortunately you are as entertaining as a radio. You need to get really drunk to try argueing with your radio set. There is no way for you to admit that in Iraq "coalition" acts like an agressor, and, in fact, an international gangster.
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You protect your intersts by trying to steal Iraqi oil, and we protect ours by not letting you do it.
The US has always paid for its oil, usually at prices which are artificially inflated by cartels. I can't think of a time when the US got oil for free. And as far as the US going to war for oil, the numbers don't add up. This war could end up costing $100 billion dollars, which would buy more oil than Iraq produces in 5 years. Assuming the US 'steals' every drop of oil Iraq produces from now on, it will take a minimum of 5 years to break even. It would have been infinitely cheaper to just pay for oil at the current inflated rate than going into Iraq with tanks. Only oil exporters see this war as being about oil.
ra
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Originally posted by ra
The US has always paid for its oil, usually at prices which are artificially inflated by cartels. I can't think of a time when the US got oil for free. And as far as the US going to war for oil, the numbers don't add up. This war could end up costing $100 billion dollars, which would buy more oil than Iraq produces in 5 years. Assuming the US 'steals' every drop of oil Iraq produces from now on, it will take a minimum of 5 years to break even. It would have been infinitely cheaper to just pay for oil at the current inflated rate than going into Iraq with tanks. Only oil exporters see this war as being about oil.
ra
Sure, oil importers don't doubt that it is NOT for oil :D
As we have learned many times - all agressors come to stay for centuries, what five years are you talking about?
BTW, it's a good example of "capitalist free market". The one who has bigger gun always wins in a "fair competition".
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Originally posted by Boroda
You protect your intersts by trying to steal Iraqi oil, and we protect ours by not letting you do it.
Well a damn fine job of stopping us you did :D
We have the oil now, bite our arse.
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Originally posted by Boroda
, set. There is no way for you to admit that in Iraq "coalition" acts like an agressor, and, in fact, an international gangster.
and that should be enuff to make you shut yer worthless piehole before you end up buried under a parking lot ;->
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No, Stalin doesn't piss me off any more than any other genocidal dictator from Hitler to Idi Amin to Hussein does.
More than anything, those kind of people make me feel sorry for the populations they oppress and slaughter.
Aggression? Great comeback there Yakov!
Invasion of Finland ring any bells for you?
Stabbing Poland in the back? Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty? Soviet troops invaded Polish territory from the east on September 17, 1939 while the following treaties and agreements were in effect between the governments of Poland and the Soviet Union:
The Peace Treaty between Poland, Russia and the Ukraine signed in Riga, on March 18, 1921, by which the Eastern frontiers of Poland were defined.
The Protocol between Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Rumania and the USSR regarding renunciation of war as an instrument of national policy, signed in Moscow on February 9, 1929.
The Non-Aggression Pact between Poland and the USSR signed in Moscow on July 25, 1932.
The Protocol signed in Moscow on May 5, 1934 between Poland and the USSR, extending until December 31, 1945, the Non-Aggression Pact of July 25, 1932.
The Convention for the Definition of Aggression signed in London on July 3, 1933.
Oh, yeah.. remember what happened on 15 June 1940 in Lithuania?
June 17, 1940 in Latvia?
September 28, 1939 in Estonia?
The "incorporation" of Albania, Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia into the Soviet Union after WW2?
And of course things didn't really change after Stalin did they?
There's November 4th, 1956, a date all Hungarians probably remember.
Or the night of August 20-21 1968, a time I'm sure all Czech's probably remember.
:D
When it comes to "International Gangster", I think the Soviet Union gets to keep the trophy. No other nation will ever come close.
Pretty cool when Stalin also assured that you folks will forever have the "Genocide against a nation's own population" trophy locked up forever too......
I seriously doubt the day will ever come that ANY nation will topple the record of aggression and abuse of their neighbors and citizens that the Soviet Union managed to compile in such a relatively short time.
But you go ahead and be proud of that.... it's what makes you such a valuable comedy addition to this BBS!
Keep 'em coming! You've got me laughing so hard my face hurts.
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The ones demonstrating against Saddam & USA must be communists!! Use napalm. I like the smell of it :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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But blitz how come you dont ackngnowlege tht fact that these people can only protest beciuse of the US victory in the war and the removal of saddams regime?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But blitz how come you dont ackngnowlege tht fact that these people can only protest beciuse of the US victory in the war and the removal of saddams regime?
If i was in charge , i wouldn't allow communists to demonstrate, no way, ridiculous! I would cut them down if they stand and i would shoot 'em if they run!!! :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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He cant even bring himself to admit that the USA has given Iraqis the freedom to deonstrate - even when some are demonstrating against the USA. Wow, simply Wow... He is a sick boy... But hell were those east german propagandists and brainwashers good, whoopee we gotta admit they did some fantastic and very thurough work on blitz...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
He cant even bring himself to admit that the USA has given Iraqis the freedom to deonstrate - even when some are demonstrating against the USA. Wow, simply Wow... He is a sick boy... But hell were those east german propagandists and brainwashers good, whoopee we gotta admit they did some fantastic and very thurough work on blitz...
Well, take it as a benefit that i even bother to talk to you, normally i put all former communists on my mute list!!! :D
Regards Blitz
They hide everywhere in countries of the free west-> they are the fith column of moskow!
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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So I guess this is Blitz#2, the one who hates communism....
Here is an old post I wrote in one of Blitz's bizzare threads, seems my prediction of his behavior has been very accurate.
Blitz what with the multiple personality thing you got going on??
Lets see this is usually how it goes...
Blitz #1:
Communism is the gee golly most bestest thing ever.
GRUNHERZ:
Blitz you tard communsim is evil.
Blitz #2:
Yes grun I hate communism.
GRUNHERZ:
But you just said you wanna have Che Guevara's baby.
Blitz #1:
Yes of course Che was a great leader, so dreamy. And oh that Castro - my hero.
GRUNHERZ:
But blitz, Che and Castro are viscious muderes.
Blitz #2:
Of course they are because I hate communists.
GRUNHERZ: :confused:
And so on..
BTW here is the link to the whole thread blitz started. He titled it:
Great American Communists (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78989&highlight=blitz+AND+baby)
Check that crap out, blitz is one sick brainwashed puppy...
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Originally posted by 10Bears
LOL ok that woke you up..
If the Iraqi people were giving the choice between an secular administration and Islamic fundamentalism they would choose the later.. I would bet $100.
I sure did!!..
No.. this is not a communist country..
You ever pay up on your last bet with Toad?
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anyone else see the irony here? we got russians telling us how to deal with arabs... we got russians claiming that stalin allowed them to surpass the U.S. in something (maybe the space race?)... we got russians that actually think they can prevent us from doing whatever we want..
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
anyone else see the irony here? we got russians telling us how to deal with arabs... we got russians claiming that stalin allowed them to surpass the U.S. in something (maybe the space race?)... we got russians that actually think they can prevent us from doing whatever we want..
lazs
Amusing ain't it.
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Death to infidel mercinary invaders, may you be hit on the head with many shoes! :D
Here is one I made just for Boroda, so he feels lil bit better while waiting in line for toilet paper... ;)
(http://home.attbi.com/~filipm/moon.jpg)
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Originally posted by Rude
You ever pay up on your last bet with Toad?
Looks like he's going to be paying me Rude..
Blix attacks US war intelligence
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,941231,00.html
Blix said he found it "very, very disturbing" that US intelligence
failed to identify as fakes documents suggesting Iraq tried to buy uranium from Niger, the West African nation
which is the third- largest producer of mined uranium.
In December, the US state department used the information to support its case that Iraq was lying about its
weapons programs. But on March 7, Mohammed ElBaradei, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency
(IAEA), told the security council that the documents were [SIZE=8]forgeries.[/SIZE]
Opps... heh... no wonder the security council wouldn't give approval.. Bush might have lied to Congress.. the American people and to the world..
no biggy..
We're still waiting.
Hey Rude you live in the south right?.. The Yankees didn't invade and occupy the south.. They came to liberate it from the opressive Confederates..
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C'mon man....you're gonna pull something stretchin that far:)
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Just making a little clarification there Rude.. I bet Toad that there was maybe a couple of buckets of bug spray in Iraq not the massive amounts of WMD ready to go as Toad/Bush insisted.
He has 3 months from April 19th to prove these massive piles. Your asking me if I had paid up seems rather odd seeing as how these massive piles of WMD haven’t turned up. I’m curious as to why you asked that?.
BTW you might recall my speculating on how the spin might go. Well they sent the stuff over to Syria... Well, they buried it deep in the sand.. We’ll find it you bet ya.. Sounds like OJ searching for his wife’s killers.
We liberated Iraq. That’s nice.. And it won’t be too hard to revise some history to fit with current events. The USSR was merely liberating Hungary.. The good German people living in Poland had to be liberated from the Polish regime. The Japanese simply used a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor.
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We liberated Iraq. That’s nice.. And it won’t be too hard to revise some history to fit with current events. The USSR was merely liberating Hungary.. The good German people living in Poland had to be liberated from the Polish regime. The Japanese simply used a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor.
FUK YOU!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
FUK YOU!
Heheheh Thank you!..
Sharpen your debate skills.. next time you'll win one.
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"We liberated Iraq. That’s nice.. And it won’t be too hard to revise some history to fit with current events. The USSR was merely liberating Hungary.. The good German people living in Poland had to be liberated from the Polish regime. The Japanese simply used a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor."
10bears I am a simpleton.. please please please tell me this is a troll.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
We liberated Iraq. That’s nice.. And it won’t be too hard to revise some history to fit with current events. The USSR was merely liberating Hungary.. The good German people living in Poland had to be liberated from the Polish regime. The Japanese simply used a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor.
You've got the right idea there 10Bears but a few of the names wrong. We liberated Korea (among others) from the Japanese, France (and others) from Germany, and Russia (with others) from the USSR.
Now we can add Iraq from Saddam.
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Just so no one is confused, here's is the actual bet.
For example, there has already been some "forgetfulness" on how long a period of time they had to find the stuff. It wasn't ONE month... it was THREE months.
It's all in the "10Bears Does Iraq have Chem/Bio Weapons?" thread in the O-Club.
Just so everyone's on the same page:
03-10-2003 03:32 PM Toad:
10Bears, I gotta laugh. I think Nash and I are pretty much on the same page overall. Guess you don't see it.
OK, here's the bet:
$45 (or more if you like.)
1. Use of chem/bio weapons during the combat phase means I win. Finding chem/bio weapons with 3 months after cessation of hostilities means I win.
(Sorry, but you know 2 weeks isn't long enough for Blix and crew to unpack their underwear and this stuff is obviously pretty well hidden. It's going to take a little time to get the collaborators to come forward and lead the way. I doubt Iraqis are going to want to spill the beans until they're quite sure the Hussein days are over.)
Three months, that's the bet. Hey, it's taken them 12 YEARS to get this far.
2. It's gotta be Blix and crew OR his UN appointed follow-on. We don't know; Blix might quit in disgust if the war starts or something. So, make it a UN sponsored investigator or something.
3. Any chem/bio weaponry or components that are on the prohibited list counts. You're saying they have nothing on the prohibited list, I'm saying they do.
After all, this war is about them not 'fessing up to what they have that is on the list. If they have the prohibited precursor chemicals to VX for example... bingo, I win.
Here's the reply:
03-10-2003 05:44 PM 10Bears:
Your on 3 months..
I have a quibble with 2nd part.. Delivery systems are out. They can be used for conventional ordanance.
That's the bet.
Here's my prediction:
The stuff will be found. The UN won't have Blix & Co. back in there by then. However, it will be documented by every reputable news agency in the world.
10Bears will refuse to pay because the UN didn't "officially" verify it within 3 months.
That's my guess.
BTW, we started the "90 day clock" on 19 April. So, relax until July.
;)
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Heheheh Thank you!..
Sharpen your debate skills.. next time you'll win one.
The stupidity and sheer evil of what you said is beyond debate, if you truley belived what you wrote in that post no amount of logic and discussion will be of any use.
So once again 10bears, and frankly I'm shocked that your extremism and hatred extends so far to seriouly equate the USA with Nazi Germany and the USSR, there is only one thing to say:
FUK YOU!
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Probably my last attempt to argue with the radio. Radio always knows better. It simply repeats what they say on the other end and never listens to your arguments.
No, Stalin doesn't piss me off any more than any other genocidal dictator from Hitler to Idi Amin to Hussein does.
Well, your "peacemakers" couldn't even accuse Miloshevich in genocide. Blah blah as it alway goes.
More than anything, those kind of people make me feel sorry for the populations they oppress and slaughter.
Again trying to tell me I am/was opressed and slaughtered?! JFYI: majority of Soviet people lived much better under USSR then now in "democratic" society.
Aggression? Great comeback there Yakov!
Who the hell is that Yakov!? I think I should call you Kvaka-Zadavaka or mister Twister next time.
Invasion of Finland ring any bells for you?
Toad, "invasion" in Finland had only one purpose: to protect Leningrad, and you know it. League of Nations didn't recognize Soviet term of "indirect agression" (BTW, a bad translation, "kosvennaya agressiya" is quite different from "nepryamaya agressiya"), but this term exactly describes what happened in June 24th on Finnish border. JFYI, after the White-Finnish war USSR simply forced an exchange of territory, offered to Finns before the war.
Stabbing Poland in the back? Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty? Soviet troops invaded Polish territory from the east on September 17, 1939 while the following treaties and agreements were in effect between the governments of Poland and the Soviet Union:
Skipping the list of treaties with Polish state that by Sept. 17th 1939 ceased to exist. Now tell me how many people Red Army saved from nazis in Eastern Poland. Then tell me why French army, 80 divisions, and British army didn't do ANYTHING about German invasion against their ally. Then tell me why noone in the "free world" said anything against Soviet Union entering former Polish territory.
This one is definetly the best:
The Convention for the Definition of Aggression signed in London on July 3, 1933.
This "convention" didn't include basic concepts like indirect agression. As usually, "free world" motivation was clear and bold: to make Hitler attack USSR, and then get everything for free. Some countries even succeeded in such politics.
Oh, yeah.. remember what happened on 15 June 1940 in Lithuania?
June 17, 1940 in Latvia?
September 28, 1939 in Estonia?
You call THAT an "agression"!? Damn, it happened after absolutely Democratic procedures. Not even forced like "democratic" elections in West Germany and South Korea. JFYI: nazi Germany was an open threat to Pribaltic states. Annexion of Memel/Klaipeda is definetly unknown?
The "incorporation" of Albania, Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia into the Soviet Union after WW2?
Toad, usually I quit discussions with people who show such brilliant ignorance in history. Reading your posts I just can't understand - is it just you so tragically misinformed or it is a new-fangled "truth" that Western people are fed now, with history completely rewritten and forgotten :(
And of course things didn't really change after Stalin did they?
There's November 4th, 1956, a date all Hungarians probably remember.
Or the night of August 20-21 1968, a time I'm sure all Czech's probably remember.
:D
I just wonder what will US of A do when some day they'll find people in a "friendly" country hanging your allies on lamp posts. And JFYI: "invasions" in Hungary and Czechoslovakia were perforemed by Warsaw Treaty troops, not only Soviet.
Again: did anyone in the "free world" care about poor Magyars and Czechs? Did they do anything to help them after they arranged that great provocations? No they didn't.
Now, please, I want to hear your version of what US of A did several times in Panama (including open state terrorism against Columbia), Grenada, Cuba and many other countries.
How about open support to terrorist organisations, including terrorist bombings of Yugoslavia, supplying weapons to Afghan "rebels", Chechen terrorists, etc. I simply fail to name a terrorist organisation that didn't get support from the "land of free".
When it comes to "International Gangster", I think the Soviet Union gets to keep the trophy. No other nation will ever come close.
Currently there is just one nation that acts using purely criminal methods in it's foreign policy. Many things changed here in past 12 years. Nothing changed in your country. The same people who planned a "limited nuclear war" against Russia 20 years ago keep the same political line. Unfortunately there in no more USSR to stop that gangsters who drop cassete bombs on children to assure future profits for monopolies they control.
Pretty cool when Stalin also assured that you folks will forever have the "Genocide against a nation's own population" trophy locked up forever too......
I seriously doubt the day will ever come that ANY nation will topple the record of aggression and abuse of their neighbors and citizens that the Soviet Union managed to compile in such a relatively short time.
I only can point that USA did a great job in genocide of Indians. We have fundamental differences in our mentalities... You will tell me all that HR blabla, but just look what was going on in your own country 30-40 years ago. Just tell me, could anyone openly state he was a member of Communist party, and where he could have find himself very soon.
But you go ahead and be proud of that.... it's what makes you such a valuable comedy addition to this BBS!
Keep 'em coming! You've got me laughing so hard my face hurts.
Toad, you can laugh as much as you can. You're welcome. I only advise you to go read some books that don't contain only the Party Line approved materials, allowed for reading by US military personell.
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Boroda, I think I'll just let your remarks stand.
Maybe a few of the Finns here will jump in and agree with you.. but I doubt it.
If we have any Poles, I'm sure they'll agree with you too.... especially any of them that are related to the million+ Poles deported to the Soviet Union.
Or you can read some "outside" information here:
THE SOVIET ETHNIC CLEANSING CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE POLES DURING WORLD WAR II (http://www.miedzynami.com/ElectronicMuseum/WorldWarII/Deportations/deportI.html)
Or HERE (http://www.miedzynami.com/ElectronicMuseum/WorldWarII/WWII.html)
The Soviets followed in their Nazi friends’ footsteps. They aimed at Polish intelligentsia, army and police officers, scientists, politicians and state officials in order to replace the existing democracy with communist indoctrination. They spread terror in order to make the imposition of the Soviet regime on the occupied territory easier. More than 1.5 mln of the Polish citizens were deported to forced labour concentration camps where most of them died of starvation and disease. The Katyn Forest Massacre exemplifies the methods employed by the “progressive” Soviet system and became the symbol of a senseless hecatomb.
Or you could check with a Polish historian about how fair and unbiased your schoolbooks are:
Polish historian Bohdan Cywinski's reports from Russia in Rzeczpospolita (November 30-December 1, 2002). Cywinski writes of a high school textbook of Russian history he picked up in a Moscow bookstore in November 2002. In the textbook, the partitions of Poland coengineered by Catherine the Great are described as "enlargement of the western frontier." The name of Poland is not mentioned, and no ethical reflection accompanies this particularly heinous and unprovoked aggression of one state against another, of the kind NATO was supposed to protect Western Europe against. Remarks Cywna "A nation that offers such unreflective history textbooks to its youth and praises conflicts between states in such a way has to be treated as an enemy of Poland and of myself personally. . . [Russia keeps cultivating] hostility toward peoples who dare to fight for identity and sovereignty. She says: we shall tolerate you within our borders, but if you dare to rebel, we shall strangulate you and shall cut your throats."
BTW, you never talk about the Third Partition of Poland? Why is that?
Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia were occupied by the Soviets under "democratic procedures"? Man, I hope we have some of those nationalities reading this board. Wonder why they actually welcomed the Germans when the Germans kicked the Soviets out of Estonia after this "democratic occupation".
Loved your excuse of the aggressive invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia too. Maybe we have a few of those guys on the board that can comment about how they "provoked" the invasion. It was that "freedom" thing, wasn't it?
See, it's this kind of comedy that no one but you provides. So don't leave, OK?
You know, the USofA became a nation in 1776. The "genocide" of the the American Indian since that date is miniscule compared to Stalin's Terror.
“In the original version of his book The Great Terror, Robert Conquest gave the following estimates of those arrested, executed, and incarcerated during the height of the Purge:
Arrests, 1937-1938 - about 7 million
Executed - about 1 million
Died in camps - about 2 million
In prison, late 1938 - about 1 million
In camps, late 1938 - about 8 million
Conquest concluded that "not more than 10 percent of those then in camp survived." Updating his figures in the late 1980’s based on recently-released archival sources, he increased the number of "arrests" to 8 million, but reduced the number in camps to "7 million, or even a little less." This would give a total death toll for the main Purge period of just under ten million people. About 98 percent of the dead (Gendercide Watch's calculation) were male."
Compare that to three of the absolute worst Indian massacres by the US Army. Custer at the Battle of the Wa****a killed ~103 Indians. Chivington killed ~ 200 at the Sand Creek massacre. And at Wounded Knee ~153 Indians were killed.
Like I said, no nation will ever catch up to the Soviet Union in wars of agression or in the obliteration of its own population.
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Toad why even bother? You know he will just reject anything you say or tell you that Uncle Joe was a kind hearted leader of his people and the greatest russin ever and that the USSR was a beacon of freedom it its time.
I, for one, find it much more productive to simply make fun of Boroda..
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Toad, it's useless to argue.
Russians are evil.
9 millions in prisons and camps 1938... Beautiful. Amazing. That guy Conquest has beautiful imagination. Declassified Soviet numbers are 2 million. Number of executed is also about 5 times more. Duck such "historians".
I wonder how there are some Russians still alive.
About Poland - again, it's hard for me to discuss history of our relations, because of a "guilt complex" :( But in 1939 Poland was definetly an enemy of USSR, and, to some extent, an ally of Hitler. They got their part of divided Czechoslovakia, no letting USSR assist Czechs according to an assistance treaty. And believe me, the "cleasings" could not compared to what nazis did... Even to "coalition" cleansings now in Iraq against BAAS party members.
I just advise you to read some things about status of Poland and Finland in Russian Empire. Did I tell you that my Grandfather graduated from Warsaw univercity in 1914? He spoke Polish perfectly... In 1920 he was on Romanian border, his regiment pushed Makhno out of Ukraine...
Toad, your anti-Soviet efforts are amazing, but you'll not make us rewrite the history of our country. Brit-Am agression in Iraq helped many people understand the real meaning of your "democracy" and "freedom". At least I hope we'll not see any more school history textbooks where Stalingrad gets 5 lines and American Pacific campain gets 10 pages. As one wise man said at the wbfree.net forum: "All that Soviet Power fed us about Communism was a lie. But what they said about imperialism turned out to be true".
I don't like modern bonehead commies. But I hate "cavemen anticommunists" even more :mad:
My congratulations. You turned another thread into a "Boroda wants to kill all Poles", from an informative discussion with a person who has first-hand information about situation in Iraq and pointed out some interesting facts about "coalition" occupational policy.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Toad why even bother? You know he will just reject anything you say or tell you that Uncle Joe was a kind hearted leader of his people and the greatest russin ever and that the USSR was a beacon of freedom it its time.
I, for one, find it much more productive to simply make fun of Boroda..
He didn't bother. He just repeated the "popular history" programm his built-in radio is tuned to :D
JFYI, Stalin was not a "rusin". He was a Georgian. Funny how you switch to Serbian sometimes ;)
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Boroda hijack your own thread sheesh.. weapons of massive text.
Toad I only responded this morning because of Rude suggesting I didn’t pay off the wager.
The stuff will be found. The UN won't have Blix & Co. back in there by then. However, it will be documented by every reputable news agency in the world.
10Bears will refuse to pay because the UN didn't "officially" verify it within 3 months
Speculating are we?.. I already got the check made out. I WANT you to win...
As we discussed, as per stipulation of the bet, anything found must be verified by an official 3rd party.. Judith Miller’s article in the NYT yesterday or the Washington times don’t cut it. If it’s the UN, so be it.. In fact it needs to be for sanctions to be lifted. Either or, the UN need to declare Iraq free of WMD.
Gurnhurz, yeah.. some of that was troll.. but there’s a bit of truth to it. I assumed most thinking people know the difference between liberation.. removing an foreign occupying force and overthrow and occupation. Adding the term “liberation” tries to put a little lipstick on a pig.. but it’s still a pig. The part about the Japanese attack on Pear Harbor was not a troll.. We just did exactly what we fought them for.
I am a citizen of the world first.. an American citizen second.. Some people on this board have no idea how small the world really is.. how interconnected business and trade are. When you suggest boycotting products from Germany, you are bashing the good people of North Carolina.. Did you know that?.. Did you know the BMW plant in Raleigh employs over 2000 people?
If I win this bet Toad, I’m sure Bush will tell the world pretty much what Gurnhurz just told me.. the words might be changed a little.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Boroda hijack your own thread sheesh.. weapons of massive text.
I beat you didn't see Toad using "radio-active flooding" (tm) :) He knows it's hard to me to read English and to reply to his endless posts. You know, different language and even different alphabet. 12-15 years ago I read tons of English sci-fi, mostly because a 200 pages book lasted 5 times longer then Russian, but when I understood that I spend the same one day on this English book and equal book in Russian - I quitted... So this days BBS posts are my only practice in English. :(
BTW, English is beautiful language. I adore English writers, who have to express so much using such primitive forms... Mark Twain, Hamingway, Vonnegut, can you give me some new names that follow this line? We are maybe 10 years behind you literature ;)
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Originally posted by ra
The US has always paid for its oil, usually at prices which are artificially inflated by cartels. I can't think of a time when the US got oil for free.
ra
Nah ra, please do a search about Iraqs history and the 7 sisters from USA who stole Iraqs oil as long as possible.
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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"Gurnhurz, yeah.. some of that was troll.. but there’s a bit of truth to it. I assumed most thinking people know the difference between liberation.. removing an foreign occupying force and overthrow and occupation. Adding the term “liberation” tries to put a little lipstick on a pig.. but it’s still a pig. The part about the Japanese attack on Pear Harbor was not a troll.. We just did exactly what we fought them for.
I am a citizen of the world first.. an American citizen second.. Some people on this board have no idea how small the world really is.. how interconnected business and trade are. When you suggest boycotting products from Germany, you are bashing the good people of North Carolina.. Did you know that?.. Did you know the BMW plant in Raleigh employs over 2000 people?"
First Japan did not give the USA 12 years to complyt with a cease fire after america lost a war with Japan - so that is completely different. The usa was not bound by a cease fire agreement to not have a pacific navy. Plus the japanese attacked the usa not because they feared an unprovoked us attack but because they wanted to eliminate the us navy so they could continue their ongoing 8 year war of brutal real life conquest in china and all of asia. So I must say again your comparsion is enterily inapropriate even ignorant. You did know that by 1941 Japan had been conquering china for 8 years, you do know that they had ivaded and occupied french colonial possesions is southeast asia, you did know that the usa took steps to counter japans agression by cutting off oil sales and scrap iron shipments. you did know all these things when you comapred our efforts in iraq to japans culmination of 8 years of brutal asian conquest with their attack on pearl harbor... Did you know these things?
If you think you are citizen of the world first then I think thats sad - I can see why you prefess this sort of ignorant hatred as in that last post towards america so easily - you dont really consider yourself an american. I am fully aware how interconnected the world is, however one must undertsnd that ones own country is the primary entity internationally. There is no one "world", thats a hippe myth that will never happend because the interests of all nations will never align for any significant amount of time.
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They didnt steal oil you idiot, the big us companies developed the arabian oil fields and made the arabs tremendously wealthy for a long long time before opec became relevant.
Why on earth did I just waste time responding to blitz?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
"Gurnhurz, yeah.. some of that was troll.. but there’s a bit of truth to it. I assumed most thinking people know the difference between liberation.. removing an foreign occupying force and overthrow and occupation. Adding the term “liberation” tries to put a little lipstick on a pig.. but it’s still a pig. The part about the Japanese attack on Pear Harbor was not a troll.. We just did exactly what we fought them for.
I am a citizen of the world first.. an American citizen second.. Some people on this board have no idea how small the world really is.. how interconnected business and trade are. When you suggest boycotting products from Germany, you are bashing the good people of North Carolina.. Did you know that?.. Did you know the BMW plant in Raleigh employs over 2000 people?"
First Japan did not give the USA 12 years to complyt with a cease fire after america lost a war with Japan - so that is completely different. The usa was not bound by a cease fire agreement to not have a pacific navy. Plus the japanese attacked the usa not because they feared an unprovoked us attack but because they wanted to eliminate the us navy so they could continue their ongoing 8 year war of brutal real life conquest in china and all of asia. So I must say again your comparsion is enterily inapropriate even ignorant. You did know that by 1941 Japan had been conquering china for 8 years, you do know that they had ivaded and occupied french colonial possesions is southeast asia, you did know that the usa took steps to counter japans agression by cutting off oil sales and scrap iron shipments. you did know all these things when you comapred our efforts in iraq to japans culmination of 8 years of brutal asian conquest with their attack on pearl harbor... Did you know these things?
If you think you are citizen of the world first then I think thats sad - I can see why you prefess this sort of ignorant hatred as in that last post towards america so easily - you dont really consider yourself an american. I am fully aware how interconnected the world is, however one must undertsnd that ones own country is the primary entity internationally. There is no one "world", thats a hippe myth that will never happend because the interests of all nations will never align for any significant amount of time.
If ya can't see the total difference between WW2 and current Iraq War than nobody can help you.
Saddam Hussein has absolutely nothin to do with Adolf Hitler.
He's just one bloody dictator outa dozens that were supported by the western countries in the last decades.
Absolutely nothin special about him--- ahhh wait--- he's sitting on a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig oil field :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Wow blitz I have always known you were dumb but I never had cause to doubt your basic reading ability until now....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Wow blitz I have always known you were dumb but I never had cause to doubt your basic reading ability until now....
btw I'm a world citizen too, second european, third german :)
Regards Blitz
Has nothin to do that i loooooooooooooove my country but if i have to choose between a Holocaust denieing german idiot and someone around the world with a good sence of humanity , i always will take the second one :)
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by Boroda
but you'll not make us rewrite the history of our country.
The true history has already been written, some of it by your own countrymen.
You just don't accept it.
And you never will.
But that's OK, because the rest of the world KNOWS the truth.
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1 word for Blitz...hell even maybe borada now...
BullDozer rentals......
:D
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Originally posted by BGBMAW
1 word for Blitz...hell even maybe borada now...
BullDozer rentals......
:D
Wroom Wroom!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Wroom Wroom!
The nice thing is: We dropped a handful of sand into the transmissions of the 'Bulldozers of Evil' :D
Regards Blitz
America was threatened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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10Bears,
That was just a restatement so everyone, even Rude, knows what the bet was.
As for my prediction.... it stands.
From what I've seen so far, the UN is isolating itself from involvement in Iraq by the "terms" it is requiring.
Cold hard truth is that IF they wanted to call the shots, they needed to be involved from the beginning. It's too late now that the heavy lifting is over; they're the "johnny-come-latelys" and no one is going to give their ideas priority since they didn't do any of the sweating and dying.
So, I doubt Blix will be involved. I DO NOT doubt that the WMD or precursors that were the cause of all the UN sanctions will eventually be found.
But I don't think there will be UN verification that suits you.
I can be wrong. Maybe the UN will get in but it would be pretty hard and embarrassing for them to say "yes indeed.. here's a ton of anthrax toxin buried out in the desert where we looked before and couldn't find it" don't you think? But maybe that's what will happen.
Or maybe every credible news organization in the world will be on hand when they pry open a warehouse full of VX artillery shells and you'll accept that.
Who knows, eh?
I'll tell you this...... if they DON'T find that stuff in a verifiable, indisputable way, I'll be working VERY hard AGAINST Bush for the remainder of his term and in the coming Presidential election.
I'm certainly not sad to see Hussein and his gang of murders gone. I believe the people of Iraq will get their shot a creating a democratic form of government. All good things. (They may well blow the shot and miss their chance however. But that's their choice.)
BUT... the only possible reason to do what we have just done without UN sanction is if there indeed was a credible WMD threat from Iraq.
So, we'll see. Time will tell all, as I've said before.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Just making a little clarification there Rude.. I bet Toad that there was maybe a couple of buckets of bug spray in Iraq not the massive amounts of WMD ready to go as Toad/Bush insisted.
He has 3 months from April 19th to prove these massive piles. Your asking me if I had paid up seems rather odd seeing as how these massive piles of WMD haven’t turned up. I’m curious as to why you asked that?.
BTW you might recall my speculating on how the spin might go. Well they sent the stuff over to Syria... Well, they buried it deep in the sand.. We’ll find it you bet ya.. Sounds like OJ searching for his wife’s killers.
We liberated Iraq. That’s nice.. And it won’t be too hard to revise some history to fit with current events. The USSR was merely liberating Hungary.. The good German people living in Poland had to be liberated from the Polish regime. The Japanese simply used a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor.
I only asked because of a vague memory of some bet between the two of you....couldn't remember the details...thanks for the clarification....btw....they will find them:)
Now, regarding you drawing parallels to the Germans, Russians and the Japanese of the past to the current US intervention....either you are a highly skilled angler or your dillusional. If it's the latter, please clue me in to what life experience brought about such extreme views.
To clarify, I'm not of the belief that the US governments hands are clean in it's dealings throughout history. Many mistakes in judgement and the intent of those who held control have shown us to test what we're fed from the government.
It's just that this current action is valid whether WMD's are found or not...the history and factual evidence of his past intent is clearly documented....he was our enemy and the enemy of his own people. Should the next attack on our soil be nuclear, biological or chemical and hundreds of thousand die, your preferred method of containment will fall painfully short....to believe that all will be fine is naive.
The position that it is the past behavior of the US which has brought about 9/11 and the current mindset of those who wish us harm and that thus we deserve to be targeted is somewhat skewed towards the extreme....just what did the US do to justify an attack like 9/11 or perhaps something worse in the future? Supporting Isreal gives some validity to those who would murder US citizens on US soil? Tell me what we've done that would justify that kind of action.
The only rationale that I can think of that would cause you and others to be against what this nation has undertook, would be that you prefer a more balanced one world goverment system, where compromise for the purpose of the betterment of such a system would bring about a more long lasting and real peace. I don't know...you tell me what's behind all of this bitterness and resentment towards our country which seems to permeate this BBS.
It's my belief that we should continue a focused pressure on any who would cause us harm....I much more prefer the direct and honest approach to these issues rather than the covert methods of the past....yourself, along with all of us, would reel at the complete truth should it be shared with the public. You may feel it's your inherent right to know all things known by our government....I do not.
Those who resent this country overseas have their viewpoint....Americans have theirs. I'm not willing to compromise our principals just to get along. The UN is so corrupt, that to believe the answer lies with their unbiased touch is a joke.
This is all about ideology....the world is full of different folks with with different opinions...the common bond amongst man is to be free....free to worship, to raise a family in safety, to earn a living and provide a good life through the same. The goverments and extremists, mainly through ignorance and manipulation are the culprits throughout time. I choose to hold back judgement on this current administration, until they show me good reason to doubt them. Knee jerk reactions to Justice Department security actions and methods are not threatening to me in the least. The assumption that the act of protecting this nation is a simple one and that uncommon efforts should be restrained is much more dangerous to the well being of our country and it's people than to take action and to speak clearly of our intent to those who would wish us harm.
The American public is not as stupid as you may believe them to be, nor as gullible. We will hold accountable those in power...in the meantime, I'm in favor of them doing their jobs as they've been elected to do and if they can't get it done, then I'll be the first to vote Mr. Bush out of office.
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I'm really disappointed in this forum. "anti-Bush" march and not one, solitary comment about women shaving? come on! Are you guys so politically charged these days that you have forgotten your rude (no pun intended, Mr. Pony Driver!) and vulgar (don't we have a Vulgar that flies too?) ways??? Where have you gone, Fatty and Creamo, our nation turns its lonely eyes to you... (ewwww, forget I posted that!)
:(
Personally, I'm pro-bush. Completely shaven just isn't as appealing as at least a little tuft of hair. ;)
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10Bears stated....
I am a citizen of the world first.. an American citizen second..
Sorry, I didn't see that far down...just ignore the above post by me. I clearly understand where you're coming from now.
There is no point in discussing this any further as you and I are far far apart. Citizen of the world? Don't worry 10Bears....you're world peace will come someday, followed by 7 years of some very difficult times.
Later
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I am a citizen of the world first.. an American citizen second..
This is the crux of the our disagreement right here.. I’ll get more into this in a few hours I have a roll in for a show today got to get ready for.
You ought not to be so harsh on me Rude, you know I’ve been volunteering for the Ironman Triathlon in Kona for the last 4 years.. You being a simi pro swimmer/runner are aware of this event if not a participant. Cut some slack eh.
Above is a abstract thought I’ll get into in a bit as well as yours and Toad’s comments. Quickly, what is the difference between nationalism and patriotism?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
They didnt steal oil you idiot, the big us companies developed the arabian oil fields and made the arabs tremendously wealthy for a long long time before opec became relevant.
Why on earth did I just waste time responding to blitz?
Sorry, my fault :(
They stole it from IRAN population as long as possible.
Regards Blitz
America was thretened by Iraq in no way, it was just plain ridiculous
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
We liberated Iraq. That’s nice.. And it won’t be too hard to revise some history to fit with current events. The USSR was merely liberating Hungary.. The good German people living in Poland had to be liberated from the Polish regime. The Japanese simply used a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor.
FUK YOU!
If you ever actually get laid, we'll teach you how to spell it.
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There is no difference....both love their country....the Nationalist places his country attributes above all other countries....a Patriot loves his country as well and by that definition, wouldn't support anything that would harm or weaken his country.
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Borado..u really are a moron when you compare this kind of stuff...
You lose any crediblity when you try to pass this off...
Go take a dirtnap...
And believe me, the "cleasings" could not compared to what nazis did... Even to "coalition" cleansings now in Iraq against BAAS party members.
Ya..we are really rounding them all up and executing them..jesus..I wish we would do this some day and show all u America Haters what we really could do...
Reminds me..of you saying we bomb cicivilans...Lord we could of flattened the whole place... and..HOW about when you claimed WE SHOT your Russain Gov guys..cause it was a 223. calliber...
Funny thing..the Rep Guard and there buddies actually had soem Steyrs rifles and M-4;s...You know what they fire dont you??..lmfao.....( I saw these rifles on TV ..showed our MArines taking them out of Brand new boxes in an Armory)
anyways..ur a hunk of feces for saying we are "cleansing " err I mean killing people when we capture them....
You are ridicluos..
and spelling is for secrataries
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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But I don't think there will be UN verification that suits you.
I can be wrong. Maybe the UN will get in but it would be pretty hard and embarrassing for them to say "yes indeed.. here's a ton of anthrax toxin buried out in the desert where we looked before and couldn't find it" don't you think? But maybe that's what will happen.
Or maybe every credible news organization in the world will be on hand when they pry open a warehouse full of VX artillery shells and you'll accept that.
Sure, UN verification would suit me... That’s all I ask. Credible news organizations have reporters right?.. all their job is is to report the opening of the warehouse full of VX artillery shells ready to go. That’s all their trained to do. It’s the weapons inspectors whom job it is to verify if the stuff is (1. real.. (2. not a throw down gun by the US. that is they want to make sure the stuff wasn’t manufactured in the US. (3. to confirm Iraq is WMD free so sanctions can be lifted.
I'm certainly not sad to see Hussein and his gang of murders gone. I believe the people of Iraq will get their shot a creating a democratic form of government. All good things. (They may well blow the shot and miss their chance however. But that's their choice.)
What!.. a democratic form of government?.. you sure about that?.. a democratic form of government implies a majority vote for their representives. Being that the majority in Iraq is Shiite Muslim, and they have indicated they would like Islamic law, wouldn’t that be adverse to current American foreign policy?. Keep in mind the majority in Iran is Shiite.
I'll tell you this...... if they DON'T find that stuff in a verifiable, indisputable way, I'll be working VERY hard AGAINST Bush for the remainder of his term and in the coming Presidential election.
Well good for you Toad this I’d like to see.. For some of your fellow travelers Bush could personally shoot someone in the head on video tape and they would poo-pah that and say something like that feller had it coming.
There is no difference....both love their country....the Nationalist places his country attributes above all other countries....a Patriot loves his country as well and by that definition, wouldn't support anything that would harm or weaken his country.
BIG difference. The Nationalist loves his country but does not question any of his countries government. A Patriot loves his country as well but has checks and balances in order they do the right thing.
Sorry, I didn't see that far down...just ignore the above post by me. I clearly understand where you're coming from now.
There is no point in discussing this any further as you and I are far far apart. Citizen of the world? Don't worry 10Bears....you're world peace will come someday, followed by 7 years of some very difficult times.
Yep, citizen of the world. Your not??? As mentioned above the world has become a much smaller place.. Borders have become less important than trade and relationships with other people. Local culture is still important. I feel more affinity with local culture where I live than mainland USA. But things like international law.. the Rule of Law.. parlayed over by an international body like say.. the UN.. might cut down on the number of times countries take up arms. I thought that was a no brainer, didn’t thing people would be in disagreement with that.
Your last comment if I’m not mistaken, is in reference to Biblical Rapture?.. Sorry, I got cured of that after leaving Catholic school. (Toad and I have something in common)
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It looks to me like the UN isn't going to be allowed in to inspect. So, you'll have your out.
The UN BS continues with the sanctions discussion and because of the continuing BS, the UN inspectors debate will probably just be shelved. Why would the coalition bother after all the obstruction both before and now after the fact?
Yeah, I said they'll get their shot at a democratic form of government. If they vote and elect leaders that establish a government based on Islamic law, that's their perogative. I have no problem with that in fact.
However, that would be an example of "blowing their shot" because NONE of the "Islamic law" based governments in that area are very democratic, IMO. Iran, for example.
But if that's what they want.. so be it. It's on their heads if they want to jump back into the sh t pile after we've dug 'em out.
You probably missed it but I said that about working against Bush if this is all unjustified a long time ago.
I'm not aware that I have any "fellow travelers" on board, but IF I had to choose some, I'd certainly take the ones that know what the definition of "is" is before I'd take those that don't.
Accountability and Responsibility. Applies to everybody, Presidents included.
No matter how they define "is".
;)
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Originally posted by babek-
Lets check the history.
In fact the eastern part of Iraq was once iranian territory. The old capital city of the iranian empires of the parthian and sassanid dynasties (which exisited in total 800 - 900 years), Ktesiphon, lies WEST of Bagdad.
Then the islamic invasion destroyed the iranian Sassanid Empire in the 7th century and Iran was devided for centuries in smaller empires. During this time Bagdad raised to the centre of the arab islam empire - especially during the Abbasid dynasty, but was heavily influenced by iranian culture.
The iranians managed to avoid the arab assimilitation (not so old cultures like the egyptians, syrians or the people in the iraqui area, who gave up their native language and adopted the new arab language for example).
The iranians even modified the islamic religion and created their own version, the shiite islam wheich has many elements of the old iranian zarathustra-religion of the last sassanid empire.
And the people living in the iraq area also adopted the shiite religion instead of the sunnite.
This is the reason, why today that country we call Iraq is the only arab country with a shiite majority.
In the follwing time the area which is today called Iraq was switching between the two powers of the region - the reborn Iranian Empire under the Safawid dynasty and the Ottoman Empire.
This lasted until the WW1 when the Iraq of today was produced by the allies.
From the first day of this country which was created 1921 the shiite majority was excluded from ruling. Instead it was first a british colony/protectorate, then a sunnite arab kingdom and then a sunnite arab "democracy" under Kassem and later Saddam.
During all this time the shiite majority was suppressed. They tried many revolts - one during WW2 with the help of the German Reich - but all these failed.
The last one failed, when Bush sr. asked the shiites 1991 to revolt against Saddam and promised help. They did and the help never came - so again the shiites were butchered by the minority ruling the country. This has not been forgotten.
The most important thing to consider, is the fact that on iraqui territory there are the two most holy shiite places - Kerbala and Nadjaf.
These places are for shiite moslems more important than Medina, Mekka or Jerusalem. The religious leaders in these cities have great influence to the shiite people of Iraq. Also during all the decades of oppression by the sunnite minorities the shiites had one last defense line: their religion.
They were discriminated when they wanted to go to university or to get a good school education.
When they were pressed to the army they were put in badly equipped cannonfodder regiments and treated badly by sunnite officers and were controlled by the secret police and political officers in these troops.
And now the USA had started a meeting to find out the next iraqui president. And not a single shiite representative was present in this meeting.
Instead the USA is favorizing corrupt criminals like Charasi, who has left Iraq decades ago, is nominally a shiite but considered by the iraqui shiites as a traitor and an US-puppet.
So 20000 shiites demonstrated against this on the day of the Garner-meeting.
If Quislings like Charasi would go to a shiite city without military escort he would be killed by the shiites like the UK-puppet Khoei was killed when he dared to visit Nadjaf (even with escort).
No - the majority of the iraqui shiites simply dont trust foreigners or people who are only puppets of foreign regimes. They trust their religion and their religious leaders - and the highest ranking and most respected one is Ajatollah Hakim in iranian exile.
Thats the problem with the shiites and this status has been created during history.
Its right that in the history the modern Iraq (from 1921) has always been a secular state.
But its also right that the shiite majority had never been part of the governments of this Iraq.
That they were suppressed and discriminated by every regime of iraq - british, kingom, republican.
That they were manipulated by foreign regimes to revolt against their governments.
And that they finally developed to a people who only see in a theocratic regime a chance for a better future.
And thats only one of the many problems Iraq will have in next time.
Others - like the kurd problem - will also cause developments which, in my opinion, will lead to a civil war.
Like I SAID[/d] Iraq is not Iran.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
We liberated Iraq. That’s nice.. And it won’t be too hard to revise some history to fit with current events. The USSR was merely liberating Hungary.. The good German people living in Poland had to be liberated from the Polish regime. The Japanese simply used a preemptive strike on Pearl Harbor.
FUK YOU!
I'll second that.
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Originally posted by 10Bears
I am a citizen of the world first.. an American citizen second..
The very thought that I've spent a career defending the right of people to think like this makes me want to vomit.