Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dingbat on April 21, 2003, 07:53:58 AM
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Here's a petition online, please if you will sign the petition.
Keep Meigs open (http://www.petitiononline.com/meigs/petition.html)
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signed
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Didn't they already dig up the runway?
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Mini-D click and read, bro.
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I did read the article... it made no mention of the runway being buldozed even as planes sat on the flight line.
It just seems the field has already been effectively closed.
BTW... I do think it was a particularly ****ty thing to do for reasons that involve little to no in-depth thought. But... now its not a matter of keeping it open, but instead building a whole new runway.
MiniD
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Mini:
"There are hundreds of thousands of pilots within the USA whose very heart and soul was attacked with the closing of Meigs Field in Chicago. The shutting of Meigs Field in this fashion sets a dangerous precedent that will allow local governments to shut down small heartland airports without any warning to the FAA, the ruling aviation authority. "
Since the person who this letter is going to knows what he did, there really wasn't a need to outline the entire storyline. "The shutting of Meigs..." Perhaps the letter could be revised a little better. However, linkage provided at the bottom also refers to the incident.
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Sigh.. whatever dingbat.
It said it was shut down, not demolished. The petition would have been great about a year ago. Basically, its worthless now. The field being demolished in this way merits litigation, not petitions.
MiniD
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It is a way to be heard, I suspect you don't fly by your reactions. To each their own. Not to mention they still can close the airport for good and not rebuild it.
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Ummm... suspect I don't fly by my reaction?
No. I don't fly. I would if I could afford it. But I don't.
I've fought locally against noise abaitment issues and privatised airstrips being beseiged by housing developments and being forced to close their doors. I spent 4 years with a mobile control tower where we only deployed to small private fields to support large events.
I'm pretty sure I'm in tune with the issues involved.
So... I'll say this again because you seem to be more in tune with sentiments than reality:
If there was a decision to close a functioning field, you issue a petition. Its going to be a long hard battle and hopefully you can keep it open. If they've rendered the field non-functional... kiss it goodbye. The only hope is that you can show the mayor's actions were illegal and get him to backtrack through the courts. That would virtually guarantee the survival of the field for x amount of years.
Sentiment has nothing to do with it. What was done was an atrocity. Petitions are not the answer.
MiniD
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Originally posted by Mini D
If they've rendered the field non-functional... kiss it goodbye. The only hope is that you can show the mayor's actions were illegal and get him to backtrack through the courts. That would virtually guarantee the survival of the field for x amount of years.
Sentiment has nothing to do with it. What was done was an atrocity. Petitions are not the answer.
MiniD
I'm not willing to give up that easily, perhaps through litigation they can force him to re-build. One can remain hopeful, rather than the pessimistic attitude that you've taken up.
Your post seems to be a double negative, First you say kiss it good bye, then you say prove he was wrong and protect the field for X number of years. this last statement implies that he'll have to rebuild Meigs...
And it's not a really a petition per say, but again, a way to be heard and express an opinion on how one person has wrongly impacted hundreds if not thousands of pilots world wide.
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Its not a double negative. It is saying that a petition right now is worthless. Pure and simple.
Your only hope is to show that the mayor commited a crime by destroying the field. Your absolute only hope. Cause then, to reconcile, you may get funding to rebuild the strip and guarantee the field's survival for a little while longer.
Basically, if the action was legal, you are not deciding on closing a functional strip, you're deciding on what to do with a nonfunctioning one.
MiniD
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What a putz
And yes, I am a licensed pilot and fly. MiniD just asked for details about what happened. Your holier-than-thou attitude isn't what he, or anyone else, was looking for.
Noble cause, don't get lost in the part...
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Originally posted by LePaul
What a putz
And yes, I am a licensed pilot and fly. MiniD just asked for details about what happened. Your holier-than-thou attitude isn't what he, or anyone else, was looking for.
Noble cause, don't get lost in the part...
Lapaul, Love to figure out where you get off calling me a putz. I haven't attacked you or Mini-D in any disrespectful tone. Holier than thou? How do you figure? Try to keep it Civil.:(
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:rolleyes:
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Was your heart wrenched because Meigs was THE field on the oldest MS Flight simulator?
I'm gonna start a "Save Pong" websight.
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You know what, fine whatever, jest me all you'd like. Lepaul, I see you can't validate your little witticisms.
Perhaps I'm a little upset because Meigs was going to be one of the first airports on my to do list. Partly due to Flight sim, but for the other reason that it's a beautiful airport to fly into.
I wouldn't have posted this if this was the reponse i was going to get. While I listened to Mini-D and didn't agree with his opinion, I didn't make any insignifant comments or bash him. Guess it's true all lifeforms have varied degrees of intellegence.
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Dingbat, you ignorant slut. More people in the Chicago area own dogs than own planes, so unless you're willing to share the field with people throwing Frisbees for their Rottweilers I'm afraid you'll just have to land your little airplane at another field.
"Megis Dog Park"- has a nice ring to it, don't you think? :)
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So where's your owner :D
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LOL Well, I can see you aren't a dog person :)
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LOL, Actually I am, I've got a 110lb GreyHound/Rottie mix.
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Wow, a greyhound/rottweiler mix? That's marvelously efficient, a dog that can outrun your speeding car THEN pull the door off and eat you. ;)
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Chairboy man you have a big head. Are you Eastern European?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Wow, a greyhound/rottweiler mix? That's marvelously efficient, a dog that can outrun your speeding car THEN pull the door off and eat you. ;)
And that's not all, he can do it without breaking a sweat :p
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Originally posted by Airhead
Chairboy man you have a big head.
Not going to touch that one
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Originally posted by Dingbat
I've got a 110lb GreyHound/Rottie mix.
I'm married to a 125 pound German/English mix.
Hey, whatever floats your boat. SOB is married to a 140 lb. Suffolk/Oxford cross. Don't ask don't tell I always say.
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Gents:
If you're not from Chicago, or haven't ever lived in/near Chicago, ever flown down the lake front, and landed at Meigs, taken your kids to watch the airplanes takeoff/land at Meigs from the 95th floor of the Hancock building, sunbathing at Oak street beach watching the airplanes either upwind or on final to Meigs, or out on lake Michigan in a boat looking at Meigs, flown into Meigs to a convention at McCormick Place, flown into Meigs to watch Da Bears, you would understand why Meigs should stay open. I don't think a Mayor should have the ultimate power to erase a place like Meigs. I believe it was voted on, and was voted to be open. Mayor Rich Daley has driven a stake through his re-election chances. Rich, this isn't your daddy's Chicago anymore.
Thorns (ex-FIB)
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the thing is not that meigs was a airfield, meigs was WATERFRONT PROPERTY and as we all know the only "higher and best" use for WATERFRONT PROPERTY is MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR HIGH RISE CONDOS, i mean the rich have to live somewhere and WATERFRONT views sell for more.
we have been fighting off the developers in st pete fla for more than 30 years, they want to build condos on albert whitted field, some day they will win , they always do.
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I believe it was voted on, and was voted to be open. Mayor Rich Daley has driven a stake through his re-election chances. Rich, this isn't your daddy's Chicago anymore.
You're right, it's his son's Chicago now. This will not impact his reelection one bit. In fact, when people even do care about it (and there aren't all that many, unfortunately), they seem to support his decision. I disagree with his actions, but I stopped voting in Chicago elections about 1.5 years ago.
What's interesting will be to see if they put in a riverboat like the rumors suggest. The new Gov. has already made it know that he wouldn't be against another riverboat/casino in the state to help meet the current budget shortfalls.
Charon
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http://www.aopa.org/images/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-2-006x.jpg
http://www.aopa.org/images/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-1-157x_2.jpg
http://www.aopa.org/images/whatsnew/newsitems/2003/03-2-019x.jpg
Signed
Hope this works
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Charon,
It's interesting you say that there aren't many people who care. The articles I read indicate otherwise. But then again it's doesn't get much play down here in Virginia.
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Hey .....
Im a dog lover, I have the honor to fly for the greatest air force in the world, fly as a civilian pilot, no I don't live in Chicago...BUT DAMMIT I have flown in there and it is a travesty that Meigs is getting rolled up and shut down.
SIGNED
Is the petition late....perhaps yes but at least people do care about it.
I think 95% of us in this thread care about what is going on. The other 5% are entitled to their opinions.
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Dingbat, I read the Chicago papers every day and it's already old news. There was about 2-3 days of coverage and now there's just the occasional small, article and a few letters to the editor. I just saw a few this week that were along the lines of: "a few rich pilots vs. a park for me...etc.
Personally, I'm very sad to see it go, especially since my parents have their boat in Burnham harbor, which is right behind the air field. I have spent many days, particularly around the Chicago Airshow, watching the planes take off and land. It's a shame, but unless there has been some major legal blunder I would think we have a better chance of seeing Saddam Hussein return to power than Meigs reopen. I hope I'm wrong.
Charon
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Hmm, an island build at the tax-payers expence for use as park and then leased to Department of Public Works for $1/year as an airport for government officials and private enthusiasts wealthy enough to afford the hobby.
I would recommend selling the damn island to the highest bidder but while it's a public property, use as park does look like a better "common good" use to me.
I imagine replacing Manhattan's Central Park or Brooklyn's Prospect Park with an airport would be very convenient for some private pilots and government officials but a terrible deal for families of limitad means using those parks.
miko
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What about the people that have been put out of work? Imagine you go to work and find the doors closed, windows boarded, and a note saying bye, Even when business was booming?
"I imagine replacing Manhattan's Central Park or Brooklyn's Prospect Park with an airport would be very convenient for some private pilots and government officials but a terrible deal for families of limitad means using those parks. "
Poor comparision because an airport doesn't exist there now and doesn't have an established customer base.
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"Hmm, an island build at the tax-payers expence for use as park and then leased to Department of Public Works for $1/year as an airport for government officials and private enthusiasts wealthy enough to afford the hobby. "
Hmmm, let me ask you a few questions.......
1) are you a pilot?
2) just how much to you think it costs to operate a private plane for an hour?
"I would recommend selling the damn island to the highest bidder but while it's a public property, use as park does look like a better "common good" use to me.
1) where do you live? I think we sell your home or your parent's home or your favorite spot "FOR THE COMMON GOOD".
What you might consider the common good is not always the prevailing opinion. How about we shut down Boston Logan airport...its technically an island....make it into luxury condos and a park...for the common good.
I imagine replacing Manhattan's Central Park or Brooklyn's Prospect Park with an airport would be very convenient for some private pilots and government officials but a terrible deal for families of limitad means using those parks. "
No one is saying destroy Central park or Brooklyn's Prospect park and make either an airport.
To answer the above questions....I know a lot of people that are learning to fly and on a limited budget. Depending on where you rent or learn to fly an hour of flight time in a Cessna 172 can be as cheap as $29.00 depending on if you are in an aero club or prevailing rates. Not that expensive considering you are using a computer ($$), you have internet ($$), you play Aces high I assume ($$).....some people would consider your hobby for the wealthy.
Meigs was there for a LONG time...it is a piece of history....and not all of us are wealthy individuals. I know tons of people who make minimum wage and still find the time to enjoy private flying!!!!! Why take that away from them????
My two cents no disrespect intended.....
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Originally posted by guttboy
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Bravo!
Oh and where can I get that 172 for 29$, I thought I was doing good at 68$/wet down from 89 at another club
:D
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Dingbat....At the Kirtland Aero Club here in Albuquerque....although I bought a block of hours to get that rate and I pay my 15$ a month dues.
You can also get a free hour....just go to BE A PILOT dot com...you get the certificate...although not sure if they are still running the program.
Good to see we have GA guys out there. I fly in the AF and have been for going on 17 years if you consider the AF Academy time in sailplanes as well.
Take care!!!
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OHHHH ALMOST FORGOT!!!!!!!!!!!
Try flying with the CAP...civil air patrol....you can get rates even lower....I believe ours here is around 22 bucks per hour if flying under CAP time.....VERY worthwhile.....and a GREAT WAY to help the USA!!!
From SAR (Search and Rescue) to surveying things very rewarding!!!!!
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I'm actually looking at CAP, focusing on my PPC right now, solo'd last week at 22 hours. Greased every landing, some of the best flying I've ever done. I fly out of KNYG Turner Field at Quantico Marine Base.
edit: spelling
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AWESOME!!!!!!!!
Keep it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Watch out for the spring crosswinds though...can be a squeak!...LOL
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Originally posted by guttboy
AWESOME!!!!!!!!
Keep it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Watch out for the spring crosswinds though...can be a squeak!...LOL
Don't have to tell me, I delayed my solo 2 times because of weather relating to X winds. Tell me about CAP, are you a member?
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Not at this time....VERY BUSY...flyin in the good ol USAF....havent touched a 172 in about 4 months......ask away though....Ill be happy to let you in on stuff.....
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I read one requirement is to be single?
What are the physical Fitness requirements?
Basically what's the overall initiation phase like?
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guttboy: 1) are you a pilot?
2) just how much to you think it costs to operate a private plane for an hour?
Probably more money and time than most families with children likely to be using parks would care to spend.
"I would recommend selling the damn island to the highest bidder but while it's a public property, use as park does look like a better "common good" use to me.
I think we sell your home or your parent's home or your favorite spot "FOR THE COMMON GOOD".
Don't be obtuse. However much you and other marxists ;) prefer to have all property nationalised and used by elite, what I recommended is a perfectly legal and common in this country. Plenty of public property was privatised at one point or another and ended up serving public interests better then when it was mismanaged by politicians. Disneyland is a private company the last time I checked. The inhabitants of Ghicago have complete right to dispose of their communal property as they wish and sell it on my or anyone's advice. Unlike my house which is my private proplerty and cannot be legally sold by anyone but me in normal circumstances.
If the citizens of NYC do decide they really need to build a highway, etc. where my house is standing, the city council can certainly vote eminent domain and make me give it up for an appropriate compensation.
What you might consider the common good is not always the prevailing opinion. How about we shut down Boston Logan airport...its technically an island....make it into luxury condos and a park...for the common good.
I have no opinion on the utility of BLA to the Chicago inhabitants. I make no blank statements that all public property should be privatised even in a libertarian state. Do not attribute ignorant or stupid ideas to me to make your arguments easier - I have plenty of my own, thank yo. :)
What you apparently are not realising is that my "wild" plan of turning the island into park is actually what a duly-elected mayor of Chicago representing the will of majority of Chicago people is actually doing - after making his plans public for 8 years.
He had to do it under cover of the night exactly becasue a democracy and law-disrespecting radical minority would have staged some action that would have delayed the works and caused extra expence.
No one is saying destroy Central park or Brooklyn's Prospect park and make either an airport.
And it was probably a stupid idea to destroy the artificially created park island to build Meigs airport.
Depending on where you rent or learn to fly an hour of flight time in a Cessna 172 can be as cheap as $29.00 depending on if you are in an aero club or prevailing rates. Not that expensive considering you are using a computer ($$), you have internet ($$), you play Aces high I assume ($$).....some people would consider your hobby for the wealthy.
Have you tried raising children? What is the money equivalent of not having your children play on the grass for days or weeks because the nearest open space is far away and the closest park was diverted for luxury use by hobbyists?
How much does the extra travel time cost? What is the money equivalent of the traffic accident risk trying to get out to a faraway park? How much would a life insirance increase (neccesarry thing if you have children) if you are an amateur pilot?
I know tons of people who make minimum wage and still find the time to enjoy private flying!!!!! Why take that away from them????
To bring more enjoyment to more people from the use of the park? There is no clear-cut decision here that would make one side or the other absolutely true or false.
The disoposal of the private property in the free market is decided by the market prices and supply/demand.
The public property is disposed off through elected officials making decisions on behalf of the electorate. In any case they would be unsatisfied people. C'est la vie!
miko
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Miko,
You are entitled to your opinions as I am.
Personally if your kids enjoy flying perhaps you might want to take them to a General Aviation airport....OHH WAIT THERE ARE NONE......
Honestly I can see your point of view....can you see mine? I do ask you this question though.....
What do you like to do as a hobby or a job?
Please answer me this honestly and truly...no slams from my end at all.....:)
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Miko....reread your post....by the way....
You can email me at shadow17th@aol.com and I'd be happy to call you on my dime to discuss this...
IN NO WAY am I a Marxist or have marxist ideas....
TWO...just responding to your post.....
AND THREE...I am not attributing ideas to you...you mentioned public property....I brought up Logan Airport....technically it IS PUBLIC PROPERTY....so lets agree to not insult each other and talk about this like rational people....
The name is Mike here btw:)
Look forward to hearing from ya!
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Mike,
I hear you perfectly.
I do not argue that in general there may be a better use for a piece of land as an airport or some other hobby-supporting facility than as a park - maybe even in this case and I, the mayor and most of Chicago public are misguided in their preference. Would not be the first time.
But there is no possible way to convince everyone, so the majority is supposedely prevailing here even if some are not satisfied. The numbers indicate that the use of Maigs field dropped drastically over the last decades. May be the needs of the population changed since it was built?
Of course there are airports in my area. If my kids enjoy flying and I let them, I would have to drive them 40-60 miles to one of the Long Island or NJ airports.
I had to drive 40 miles to Long Island to shoot my longbow and now I have to do the same to shoot my rifles.
I, personally do not use the nearby Prospect Park and drive to New Jersey parks on picnicks.
Personally, I would greatly benefit if a rifle/archery range or even a paintball park was built there. Even if that area gets built with housing, it would cause rents drop for me. Or even a park with greatly upgraded facilities that would charge substantial money for admission to keep the numbers low - time is more pressing than money for me.
But it was most likely a good idea to have a park, rather than other facilities there so that thousands of families and their children could use it every day rather than watch TV.
miko
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Miko
Thanks for the reply...seriously though.....
Id like to discuss this withyou......
Drop me an email at that address and ill zap you my phone or you can mine and lets chat.
I would like to hear your opinions...
I know your frustrations on Long Island...my mom is from Franklin Square...spent many a summer on the Island...going over the Throggs neck bridge and past Belmont park to get to my grandparents house.
Lets talk!!!!
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guttboy: IN NO WAY am I a Marxist or have marxist ideas....
:)
I thought so, Mike - that's why I put that smile next to the word. It's an irony rather than an accusation, so do not take it personally or as an offence.
I will try not to insult you but if I ever do so, please bring it to my attention to give me a chance to explain/appologise.
You would be surprised how many people who have negative gut reaction about privatisation of anything being mentioned or dislike towards free markets find themselves surprised when they find their views coincide with marxist/collectivist dogma.
Private property and free market are not evil, quite the opposite, they are the source of liberty and prosperity of the western world.
You then presentes privatising BLA as a silly idea in the same phrase where you've addressed me, so I assumed you attributed that view to me.
I did not argue for privatisation of the Logan Airport or all public property but just for the Meigs Island. BTW, privatising the logan Airport might not have been such a terrible idea.
All the airlines using it are private and I watched over the years the terrible bungling, delays and overbudget caused by public administration of some airports.
I an not sure the private ownership could have possibly been worse. Maybe not for Boston, but surely for some.
I look forward to discussing things with you here. You will find out that on few subjects I involve muself in, I invest time to discuss/explain things properly and clear any misunderstandings.
miko
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Mike,
Phone conversation may not be a good idea. Even if you understand my heavy russian accent, speaking from the office about politics is not advisable to me and once I come home, there is a baby to take care off, etc.
Anyway, I generally lay down my thougts much more clearly when I have time to compose a note than in a live conversation.
miko
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Miko,
Your thoughts are well taken...thanks for responding. I am not that "keen" at picking up sarcasm or jokes while the smilies are in there....thanks for keeping the discussions live and relevant!
Mike