Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKIron on April 22, 2003, 09:55:59 AM
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I'd like to hear from some of you Saddam supporters, er, anti-american, er, anti-war types again how America went about starving all those Iraqi children.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=8&u=/ap/20030422/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_briefing_4
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Your gall bladder must have a phenomenal capacity.
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I can see that the truth really "galls" ya.
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That's not exactly what I was getting at. Try again.
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Perhaps you'd like to address my request for enlightenment?
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Nah. I'll just sit back and watch this turn into the flame war you clearly want, going by your opening line.
Enjoy!
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Stand down Iron....Dowding is only standing up for what he believes in...you know...well....I think I know....what does he believe in?
Dowding....help me out here will yas...so many clever little quirps of yours over time, I seem to have lost track of what you stand for.
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You seem very eager to accommodate. Go ahead, flame away if it helps you to ignore the revealed truth.
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At ease, Rude. I don't have the time or inclination to detail my beliefs in their entirety. I also don't hold them above anyone else's; I've engaged in many threads over the past few months. I can't be arsed saying the same things over and over again and doubt anyone would really be interested. Although I admire those that do see their opinion as important and ground-breaking and worthy of repeat.
Be honest, AKIron, if your sole intention was revelation and enlightenment, why did you couch your 'facts' in such combative terms?
BTW, I haven't clicked the link. That's not what I'm arguing.
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Ahhh...all eye candy and void of substance?
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That's good of you to say so, but I'm not that way inclined. Also, I'd work on your chat-up technique.
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Originally posted by Dowding
That's good of you to say so, but I'm not that way inclined. Also, I'd work on your chat-up technique.
Chat-up technique?
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Originally posted by AKIron
I'd like to hear from some of you Saddam supporters, er, anti-american, er, anti-war types again how America went about starving all those Iraqi children.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=8&u=/ap/20030422/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_briefing_4
Uh?
:confused:
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It's okay Iron, and Rude. You will most likely never get anything that remotely shows dowding has any sort of head on his shoulders.
Hey Dowding. It's sad., You, Blitz and all the other Anti-american/american gov/thumb twiddlers should buy an Island. Start your own little perfect world. One in which you all can live in your little eutopian (european) dreamland.
Its so funny how dowding could write:
don't have the time or inclination to detail my beliefs in their entirety
This is hilarious. Hey handsomehunk,..you just wrote enough to post a response, so why dont you just answer the question? I guess your "truths" don't hold water after all. lol
BTW, I haven't clicked the link.
Why not? would it take SooOOooOooo Much of your time? Or is the reason really more because, you did click it.. and have nothing to say. Your not a good liar. :rolleyes:
Keep those thumbs twiddelin......... and let me know how your island is comming.
:rolleyes:
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No hiding it from you Dowding, my sarcasm has been revealed.
Perhaps I wouldn't resort to sarcasm if there had been the least bit of acknowledgement by the many very vocal critics of the US action in Iraq that maybe this whole thing needed doing afterall. And that just maybe, the US wasn't quite so selfish as many have portrayed. But instead, all I've seen is further sarcasm.
Now that we are seeing just exactly how despotic the rulers of Iraq truly were, I think a bit of acknowledgement is in order. Even if I must ram it down your throat with sarcasm. How you receive it really doesn't matter much to me.
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AKIron: I'd like to hear from some of you Saddam supporters, er, anti-american, er, anti-war types again how America went about starving all those Iraqi children.
Could you post a reference/quote of someone here accusing american government in starving iraqi children?
Please do so here, otherwise I will accuse of lying - attributing nonsence to the opponents and then arguing against it as if it was something actually said to discredit them.
miko
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Originally posted by Naso
Uh?
:confused:
Don't worry about it Naso. Perhaps you were unaware of the claims by so many that the UN sanctions (many attribute to the US) were causing wide spread starvation and lack of medical treatment in Iraq. Or that the true cause for the starvation has now been revealed.
Or, perhaps you weren't one of those so eager to blame the US for all the world's ills that you jumped on this anti-america bandwagon.
Either way, I hope you can now see just how oppresive Saddams regime really was.
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Originally posted by miko2d
AKIron: I'd like to hear from some of you Saddam supporters, er, anti-american, er, anti-war types again how America went about starving all those Iraqi children.
Could you post a reference/quote of someone here accusing american government in starving iraqi children?
Please do so here, otherwise I will accuse of lying - attributing nonsence to the opponents and then arguing against it as if it was something actually said to discredit them.
miko
Go ahead Miko, I couldn't care less what you have to say anyhow.
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Originally posted by JoeSmoe
It's okay Iron, and Rude. You will most likely never get anything that remotely shows dowding has any sort of head on his shoulders.
Hey Dowding. It's sad., You, Blitz and all the other Anti-american/american gov/thumb twiddlers should buy an Island. Start your own little perfect world. One in which you all can live in your little eutopian (european) dreamland.
Its so funny how dowding could write:
This is hilarious. Hey handsomehunk,..you just wrote enough to post a response, so why dont you just answer the question? I guess your "truths" don't hold water after all. lol
Why not? would it take SooOOooOooo Much of your time? Or is the reason really more because, you did click it.. and have nothing to say. Your not a good liar. :rolleyes:
Keep those thumbs twiddelin......... and let me know how your island is comming.
:rolleyes:
Dowding already lives on an island....not that I would expect you to realise that
Tronsky
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AKIron: Don't worry about it Naso. Perhaps you were unaware of the claims by so many that the UN sanctions (many attribute to the US) were causing wide spread starvation and lack of medical treatment in Iraq. Or that the true cause for the starvation has now been revealed.
Omitting the tiny fact that there was no starvation in Iraq - and thus no blame to fall on either americans or iraqi miscreants, could you name or better yet, quote those scoundrels that tried to besmirch our country's reputation?
AKIron: Go ahead Miko, I couldn't care less what you have to say anyhow.
Why don't you do it for Naso, then? You seem to be communicating with him.
But of course you are just lying. Thought so.
miko
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[edit: Some people have very pointedly said that the alleged starving Iraqis and Iraqis without medical attention was the fault of UN sanction which have been mostly attributed to the US]
I think AK's point is that the U.N. sanctions were not the cause of starving Iraqis and Iraqis without medical attention since the millions of Iraqi dollars have been found hidden in banks and Baath party houses, etc.
It is simply the government had been apparently with-holding from it's people.
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Give it up Iron....it's not about what's right...it's about envy, jealousy and the inability to stand down the rhetoric and see the truth.
It doesn't matter when anyone of us admits to wrong doings of the past....doesn't matter that we accomplished our military objective without the foretold hundreds of thousands of innocent casualties that we would inflict.
It won't matter when we find WMD's or rebuild that nation....it won't matter when the Iraqi people are free to govern themselves or when we are out of Iraq.
What only matters is that we are the United States and the sole super power....that we are who we are and not who they think we should be.
To dance with these boys is one giant exercise in futility. It's best to just shoot em down in the MA:)
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Naso: Uh? :confused:
See, Naso - some people here and elsewhere stated that US damage and of subsequent embargo of equipment required to restore and run iraqi water-treatment and sewage-treatment facilities and materials required fror water treatment caused the death of about about 500,000 iraqis - mostly children - over 12 years from dhiarrea and water born deseases, despite ample iraqi funds in UN accounts and abcense of starvation.
AKIron here is lyingly tries to pervert the accusations so they could seem to be refuted and invent starvation at the same time so that the deaths could be pinned on someone else.
Drunky: I think AK's point is that the U.N. sanctions were not the cause of starving Iraqis and Iraqis without medical attention since the millions of Iraqi dollars have been found hidden in banks and Baath party houses, etc.
Which is a lie. Whatever money was misplaced by iraqi regime, there were about $20 billion unused in iraqi UN-controlled accounts.
The electric generators for sewage treatment plants, chlorine for water treatment and some medical equipment and supplies were not available to iraq not for the lack of funds but because of US embargo (actually UN embargo but with US vetoing particular requests for crucial stuff).
The fact that there were money pocketed by scoundrels does not mean that there was lack of funds for essental supplies (and if it ever were, surely UN could have increased oil-for-food program to accomodate the need with the money directly credited into UN accounts not controlled by iraqi) or that there was starvation at all.
We've seen plenty of footage from the iraqi streets over the last few months. Did any iraqi look malnourished to you? Complained of hunger? The only starving iraqi in existance on the face of the Earth appears to be AKIron.
miko
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AKIron, I guess the main problem in the discussions here in this board about the War has been the use of the words "pro-Saddam" or "US-haters" to label ANYONE that was not in line with the official "approved way of thinking" of your government.
This has been reductive for the discussions and for the open exchange of ideas that all of us cut have have. (lost my english here, i guess)
The article you posted is a prove that some SOB (probably Saddam himself) was amassing money and other goods for future "personal" use, as usual in a dictature (and not only).
Your presumption that the Anti-war crowd is just a bunch of Saddam-lovers is wrong, if not an intended try to troll.
Nobody here (afaik) have said that Saddam's regime was a good thing.
The majority of the anti-war crowd, HERE, can be included in the "cut have been made differently under the UN cover" position.
And then there are people (like me) that cannot buy the "we wanted Iraqis to be free".
But, pay attention here:
The US soldier, most of US "common man" truely believe that, I cannot believe that at high level, high up in the "decision sphere", there is this group of saints that want to save the world from evil.
If this is the case, what about all those little dictators that do the same all around?
what about all the wars now ongoing (Afrika)?
There are others interests behind all this.
Oil?
Power?
Need for new markets?
Who nows? Maybe all the above.
Before and during this war the reasons have shifted from Terrorism to WMD to "Free the Iraqis", and some very vocal members have respected fully this shifting of the propaganda machine.
Yes, propaganda machine.
All of us, I repeat, ALL OF US, including me then, are submerged in a propaganda machine, but, be carefull, it's not the type of propaganda we can see looking back to WW2 Germany, Italy, and USA, it's a machine that have improved, have changed, has adapted to the modern overflow of informations (and sometime use it, too), and is more dangerous than ever.
Just check how works the publicity, if you stop for a moment and consider the hidden levels of messages in a common spot, you can be scared.
Massification... it's a term that has been overused (overflow technique), and for lot of people have lost sence, but is the basis of the "standardized market", it's easier to sell a product worldwide if the customers are of a standard type without many cultural differences.
Incidentally, the social model used is the US one, the one in wich this standardization have worked better.
Paranoid?
Well.. maybe :)
I am not convinced there's a plan to do the above, it's just an effect of economic forces, and a natural consequence of an economic and social system, something like the "leviathan" (Hobbes?).
But this is more scaring, because there is not a target to point, a group that you can point to and say "They are to blame", it's an entire system, OUR entire system, and change a system it's something that need an amount of energy way over the energy to overthrow a group of Evil people.
Damn, I digressed too much...
where are my pills....
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Originally posted by miko2d
But of course you are just lying. Thought so.
miko
Just waiting for you to spout off without the facts, yet again.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=18637&referrerid=2410
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Hmm......I'll try AK,
"You dam AmeriKaner, dammit."
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Originally posted by Rude
To dance with these boys is one giant exercise in futility. It's best to just shoot em down in the MA:)
Yeah, you're right Rude. I always was kinda hard headed, and bored. :D
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Originally posted by miko2d
Whatever money was MISPLACED by iraqi regime, there were about $20 billion unused in iraqi UN-controlled accounts.
LMAO. You are left of center by about 90 degrees. You are better than Bagdad Bob, aka Iraqi Minister of Misinformation.
Nice spin :p
So you are saying that since this money was "misplaced" by a selfish government that it's still the UN's fault. A concientious government would have decided it could find some of that money, that it didn't need so many grand palaces, it didn't need gold plated plumbing, etc.
You are a bone head, a freaking tool, and now I understand why so many people do not like you.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Yeah, you're right Rude. I always was kinda hard headed, and bored. :D
I thought that was a requirement for living in Allen ;)
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Originally posted by JimBear
I thought that was a requirement for living in Allen ;)
hehe, hey buddy, you're just next door. ;)
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Hard headed? I've stepped in the many piles of dog**** placed around and about the O'Club...then walked right back and stepped in the same piles....all the while knowing that nothing I could say would change a thing.:)
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AKIron: Just waiting for you to spout off without the facts, yet again.
You are lying here. That was not what happened. I said I will accuse you if you do not present the proof.
You indicated you were not going to present any: "Go ahead Miko, I couldn't care less what you have to say anyhow."
I would have waited for you to post the proofs as long as you needed but since you lied that you were not going to, I went ahead and said you were a liar right there. Which you are, just not in that perticular - I admit. In this case you are a weasel.
TheWobble: Yea, but somehow invading for no reason, using poisen gas AGAINST YOUR OWN people, murdering those who dont want to fight for you, and making chemical weapons, staving your country and its childen to death...[/i]
Dingy:
OK, you really found some ignorant anti-war guys. That surely allows you to attribute nonsene to all your opponents.
BTW, the INICEF and UN WFP reports that Dowding refers to in the same thread talk about malnutrition rather than starvation, even though that word is used. Malnutrition is very different from starvation - and mostly means less balanced food than optimal for survival.
With destruction of infrastructure - mostly electrical grid - and inability of iraqis to rebuild it due to US ban on electrical equipment, a lot of the irrigated agriculture in Iraq became impossible and instead of growing their own greenery and livestock people had to flock into congested cities with contaminated water to exist on government-distributed canned food. While caloric intake was quite sufficient - especially for people who did not work, the lack of vitamins contributed to weakening of health - especially for newborn and children to make them suceptible to water-borne diseases.
In the same thread Dowding refuted the stupid accusations of iraqi-caused starvation quite convincingly:
". A commonly cited second novus actus argument in favour of the sanctions runs that fewer people would starve if Hussein spent all the available funds on food and medicine instead of squandering it on luxuries for his elite.Leaving to one side both the fact that the total revenue from the programme is admitted by the UN to be inadequate and the question of how it is supposed that Hussein could spend oil-for-food money on luxuries when it is not under his control (it is released from escrow by the UN only against approved humanitarian contracts), this is again an argument without foundation. The failure of a third party to intervene to mitigate the effects of a criminal act can never excuse the act."
If the money was received by UN and food delivered by UN and amount of oil sold was determined by UN, how could any action of iraqi government (playing tricks with money received for oil smuggled beyong the UN-mandated limit) cause any starvation?
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
You are lying here. Thatw as not what hepped. I said I will accuse you if you do not present the proof.
Awww, you're just sore 'cause ya got roped. Just don't be such a dope.
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Drunky: So you are saying that since this money was "misplaced" by a selfish government that it's still the UN's fault. A concientious government would have decided it could find some of that money, that it didn't need so many grand palaces, it didn't need gold plated plumbing, etc.
That was not what I said. I said that foof-for-oil program - money, limits, food, etc. were not under iraqi control. If there was not enogh money for food, UN would have increased it. The fact that there was surplus of the money proves that US did not consider it necessary to ship more food to Iraq.
Whatever money iraqi regime pocketed, came not from oil-for-food but from smuggling and other illegal sources.
But it was a good try to lie about what I said - keep it up and you will be as good as AKIron soon. :)
miko
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Originally posted by Rude
Give it up Iron....it's not about what's right...it's about envy, jealousy and the inability to stand down the rhetoric and see the truth.
Rude, you are "generally" wrong.
I mean, there is people that is envious, or jealous, but you cannot label all the people disagreeing, or opposing your government choises as you have made here.
It's offensive.
In our interconnected world, the US choises have an Huge importance for all of us, expecially for the western countries.
The road US have taken it's on an edge, with on one side a world completely "equalized" on US standard, or a glowing glass globe (as some bully here pointed sometime ;) ) on the other side.
It's not funny.
11/9 has been something... I fail the words to describe, negative words.
But when you want to stop the bodycount to consider it avenged?
Never?
As I already have stated, what US is doing today, justifying the acts with 11/9, it's the main victory of OBL, it's a paradox, but is sadly true.
"The giant has rised", but the giant have not asked himself WHY those ants bited painfully his face, those ants are envious because he is so huge? or because he was unaware to being stomping on their formicaio (ant's house)?
He is now stomping harder, and voluntarly, now, and eventually will kill all the ants, is this right?
For the giant, yes, those are only ants, who cares.
For the ants, it's a little different, but, anyway, who cares?
OK, I know, I now have completely gained the label of "heart bleeding liberal" even if I am not..... flame on.
Damn pills...
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AKIron: Awww, you're just sore 'cause ya got roped. Just don't be such a dope.
If it makes you feel better, you can imagine me in tears and rolling on the floor as a result of your "I am not talking-to you, no, wait I am", you little tease :)
Does that compensate your hurt feelings for you lies being revealed?
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d
AKIron: Awww, you're just sore 'cause ya got roped. Just don't be such a dope.
If it makes you feel better, you can imagine me in tears and rolling on the floor as a result of your "I am not talking-to you, no, wait I am", you little tease :)
Does that compensate your hurt feelings for you lies being revealed?
miko
You're almost as amusing as Boroda, not quite yet though, keep trying, you'll get there.
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Have to disagree Naso.
I think if we left those "ants" alone, the problem would still continue.
Most of the "ants" don't quite know why they are biting us in the face.
The big ant tells them to and they do it.
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Naso, honestly, what do Italians know about defending their country? You are almost as bad as the French in that regard.. How bout you guys just comment on the things you know about, like spagetti, leather goods and fast expensive sports cars or unreliable little cars...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
unreliable little cars...
now,now..... I drive one of them little cars.
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Originally posted by Naso
In our interconnected world, the US choises have an Huge importance for all of us, expecially for the western countries.
Naso, just because your statement may be correct does not mean that your (foreign government) desires will be fulfilled by the US. We have our own agenda as do you. If they happen to be mutually beneficial so much the better for us all. If not, well, our faithful allies will have some influence and possibly our powerful enemies. Others will have to be satisfied doing as Tommy Lasorda once put it "Watch things happen".
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Naso, honestly, what do Italians know about defending their country? You are almost as bad as the French in that regard.. How bout you guys just comment on the things you know about, like spagetti, leather goods and fast expensive sports cars or unreliable little cars...
And dont forget sex! :D
Well, anyway, if we want to consider our history as a continuity, we, as Romans, teached the world about war and engineering, then become fat and lazy, and some fresh and hungry tribe from East wiped us out....
Later, we started to explore commerce, and as Venice, Pisa and Genua, teached the world about exploring and building the first worldwide commerce net, then, devided and lazy, waged war each other, letting others grabbing the first line of the race....
Later we explored culture, and with Leonardo, Michelangelo, Galileo, and others teach the world abouth arts and science, then we become devided and lazy, and lost the edge....
Maybe we are too lazy?? :eek: :p
;)
(edited to add the Italics.)
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Originally posted by AKIron
Naso, just because your statement may be correct does not mean that your (foreign government) desires will be fulfilled by the US. We have our own agenda as do you. If they happen to be mutually beneficial so much the better for us all. If not, well, our faithful allies will have some influence and possibly our powerful enemies. Others will have to be satisfied doing as Tommy Lasorda once put it "Watch things happen".
I am not stating that US must fulfill our desire, not at all, but I hope there is still space to disagree.... or not?
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"The electric generators for sewage treatment plants, chlorine for water treatment and some medical equipment and supplies were not available to iraq not for the lack of funds but because of US embargo (actually UN embargo but with US vetoing particular requests for crucial stuff)."
This is so much bullcrap.
Saddam could smuggle in all sorts of weapons but couldn't bring in water treatment equipment?
Congrats, you've got a good chance of becoming the next Iraqi information minister.
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Originally posted by Naso
And dont forget sex!
LOL yes that too, thx god for Monica Bellucci.. :D
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JoeSmoe - you really are a funny guy. Thick as a plank and twice as blunt, but funny just the same.
Rude - I have to laugh; your idiosyncratic lines about 'envy' and 'jealousy' surface like a turd in a kid's paddling pool, and are just as welcome. Well, at least you are regular. Personally, I hate prunes.
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Originally posted by miko2d
Naso: Uh? :confused:
The electric generators for sewage treatment plants, chlorine for water treatment and some medical equipment and supplies were not available to iraq not for the lack of funds but because of US embargo (actually UN embargo but with US vetoing particular requests for crucial stuff).
miko
Why not?
that equipment was all made in Russia, Ukraine etc. They did not stop sending repair parts for military equipment, but your telling me they stopped sending repair parts for the civilian equipment?
I guess there wasnt enough money involved to make it worth it to smuggle in eh?