Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: F4UDOA on October 22, 2000, 06:10:00 PM
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Well since none of you pathetic whining drones has put up one shred of documantion proving that either the Guns or the FM of the F4U-1C is over modeled I figured I would give you something else to whine about.
1. This months cover of "Fly Past " magazine shows on the cover a perfectly restored Fg-1D(the Goodyear built version of the F4U-1D) on the cover. But notice that the armament is not 6 50Cals. It is 4 20mils albeit not the Hispano variety cannon. I have seen a number of these birds in the same configuration which leads me to belive that there were more than just the 200 F4U-1C's built by Vought. Although finding production numbers has been impossible. I have personally seen many of this example not just this one restoration.
2. Fo all those concerned about the ability of the F4U to maneuver so well I will give you the conclusion of a flight test done in 1989 by the "Socioty of Expermental Test pilots" in a Syposium given to the Aerospace foudation. They Tested a P-51D, P-47D-40,
FG-1D and a F6F-5 using military power at 10,000FT and this was the result of there testing.
Conclusions
Quote
"The objective of the program as stated , albeit rather tounge in cheek,
was to decide which of these four aircraft was the best US fighter in
WW2. The answer is "It depends". For general all around comfort, field
of view and ease of operation, the Mustang was a hands down winner. It
also scored high in performance, and was well suited to long range
escort missions and would do well intercepting and defending against
Non-maneuvering targets. However it's extraordinarily high maneuvering
stick forces, totally inadiquate stall warning and vicious departure
characterictics make it quite unsuited to the ACM envirement. It is a
tribute to the adaptabilty of the pilots who flew them that Mustangs
scored so many kills against the opposition.
In a turning fight , the FG-1D emerged with a slight advantage over it's
rivals. Light and comfortable stick forces, good performance, adequate
stall warning and docile behavior at the stall made it the "Weapon of
choice" amoung those tested.
The Hellcat while possesing almost a 1G advantage over the other A/C at
any given speed, was handicapped by heavy stick forces which interfered
with accurate lateral tracking corrections. Very heavy rudder forces
which made coordination difficult, and an extreme reluctance to turn
right at low speed at high power. Despite these short comings, it is
worth remebering that the Hellcat holds the Air to Air kill ratio record
at 19 to 1.
In the air to air envirement , the P-47 did all that was asked of it,
handling nicely but unspectacularly however. It was principly
handicapped by its severly restricted field of view. In the Air to
ground role however , the light stick forces, almost complete absense of
adverse yaw , and crisp, deadbeat tracking responses overcame that
drawback and nade it particularly suitable for the mission. The other
major drawback of the P-47 was it's poorly designed and extremely
uncomfortable cockpit which would undoubtably degraded pilot comfort and
performance on a long mission.
End Quote.
Flame Away
F4UDOA
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Nope, just 200 F4U-1Cs were built. How many of the FG-1s had the quad 20s, I don't know but will look around for the information. YOu must keep in mind, restoration projects usually are not 100% accurately done. Sometimes you'll run across a spitfire that had the 8 .303 load out but in the restoration was given the 4x.303s and 2x20s. Fact is, the cannons ARE overmodelled. Every single one in the game. But especially hispanos.. they were extremely prone to jamming, that's why when the SPitfireMkII was experimentally fitted with them in BoB, they were replaced the following sortie because they jammed. That's what's overmodelled, jams are missing. Even .50s are extremely prone to jamming in the P51B and the F4U-1A.. I think the problem was aleviated for the F4U-1D though.
Having never flown a WW2 aircraft I have no comment on the flight model of these aircraft. I put my faith in HTC that their math is correct and the proper drag ratings are incorporated.
I don't think it's the FM of the planes.. it's just that virtually everyone flies one. The guys you saw in the 190A5 during 1.03 made a mad dash to the N1K2 and F4U-1C when 1.04 came out. It's all about survivability. Some will fly the plane that gives them the upper hand(-1C in snap shots, N1K2 in snapshots, ease of flying, and amazingly excellent across the charts). Then some will sit here and fly one plane and repeatedly comment on how it's porked while they have no information on it. Then there are those that fly a lot of the planes just for kicks but stay away from the more common rides.. just to throw in a little variety in the arena.
I kinda like the idea of very few people flying the 190A5 or one of the less used planes.. cuz when I fly one, people underestimate it and think they have all the cards in the deck. Needless to say, they die fairly quickly. ;-)
-SW
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The reason they were jamming on the Spitfire MkIb and IIb is because they were mounted on their sides. This caused friction that the cannon were never intended to have, thus they jammed an unacceptable about of the time. When they put the cannon in the MkVb, they added the blisters to the wings and mounted the cannon right side up. Viola, no more major jamming issues.
They did jam more often than Machine guns, but not by very much. Advantage being that if you have a Machine gun on the P-51 jam, you've got 5 remaining. If you have a Cannon on a Spit jam, you've only got 1 left, plus the 4 .303s. One Spitfire MkIb pilot described firing after one cannon had jammed as being worse than flying a twin engined aircraft on one engine. That's how much the cannon was twisting the aircraft.
Sisu
-Karnak
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Karnak, the .50s could be charged which *COULD*, not guaranteed, unjam the guns. I'm not sure if 20s can do it?
Nonetheless, adding jams and permanent jams into the current setup we have would make flying a lot more difficult and people would actually think about their load out. Also, there'd be less spray n pray from long range when you are trying to escape.
One other thing, cannons will jam a LOT more frequently in any plane than MGs will when performing high-G manuevers. The heavy cannon projectile can't be fired out of the barrel as well as a lighter MG during high-G manuevers. This would put a whole new twist on flying, wouldn't it?
I'd sure like to see this added before we got any more planes. Just my opinion of course. ;-)
-SW
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I want to make my two points again, and thanks for the opportunity (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)........
First is the precedant: F4U1C with quad 20s
means that any US plane built between 1939 and 1945 that had even a few examples with the quad 20 should be included in the game.
Second is the fact that I saw on several occasions, F4U1Cs do incredibly high G reversals without nary a loss in E that I could *perceive*! I really cant draw any conclusions other than these happenings being just larks. The fact that others have experienced this with N1Ks and to a lesser extent, Spits, makes me wonder if too much E retention made its way into the respective codes. I trust HT and Pyro will be vigalent in parsing the bad data out, if there is any.
In the meantime I just try to survive in my
pony.
Yeager
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Gents,
I will try not to pirate my own thread by going off on a tangent but.
I have only heard of the 20mils on a F4U-1C not working becuase of freezing at 20,000Ft.
This was fixed by the addition of gun heaters. I have only heard of 50cals jamming in P-51B/C mustangs because of sideways mountings. In fact the F4U gun charging system was said to perform well.
The Goodyear manufactured FG series I believe did include some 20mil production. If it were only one example I had seen I would say coincidence. But I have seen a few and they are all FG Corsairs. Never Vought and always with a Browning Cannnon installation. Also see this months Air Classics.
As far as the FM goes when the P-38, FW-190 and P-47 were performing uber maneuvers the AH comminity was the first to find the error. So far all test performed have come up normal. I think someone on these boards should be able to conduct some valid test to prove otherwise right??
Later
F4UDOA
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Well, the Goodyear plane is in fact just based on the Vought aircraft. It has a bubble canopy and an extended nose to house the R-4360-4 Wasp Major single stage engine rated at 3,000HP(28 cylinder). Only five F2G-1s(FG-1s) and five F2G-2s were delivered before the end of hostilities in the pacific. Provision was made for either four or six wing-mounted .50 caliber guns.
No mention of 20mms. With that, using the Goodyear built F4U isn't a good example as to war time production. Especially since very few were involved in combat and it's in fact a different beast than the F4U-1C or F4U-1D.
-SW
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
The Hellcat ...Despite these short comings, it is
worth remebering that the Hellcat holds the Air to Air kill ratio record
at 19 to 1.
My canoe armed with the crossbow could attain 19 to 1 kill ration over those 16 year olds flying VAls in 1944.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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F4UDOA; how can you tell that they aren't Hispano cannon? What is different about their appearance?
AKSeawulfe; the FG-1 is the Goodyear built F4U-1, the FG-1D is the F4U-1D. These are not the same plane as the F2G with the R-4360 Wasp Major. Goodyear built over 4000 FG-1's during WW2.
fd-ski; I don't think the Japanese manufactured 5,156 D3A's, somehow.
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 10-22-2000).]
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
the .50s could be charged which *COULD*, not guaranteed, unjam the guns. I'm not sure if 20s can do it?
Nonetheless, adding jams and permanent jams into the current setup we have would make flying a lot more difficult and people would actually think about their load out. Also, there'd be less spray n pray from long range when you are trying to escape. -SW
To answer for you about unjamming a 20mm cannon or any cannon for that matter. Yes they could be unjammed provided they had a manual charging handle. However as you point out the jam was mostly unclearable due to the G-forces that were in place on the ammunition feeding to the gun. This is something that is seriously needed to be addressed. I have never seen a game address this fact in the 12+ years of playing flight simulation games.
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Maj. LJK_Reschke
StaffelKapitaen, Kommandeur Jagdbomber,
I-31 LJK
www.luftjagerkorps.com
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Juzz,
The differance between the mounting of a Hispano cannon versus a Browning cannon is the Hispano gun barrel extends well beyond the leading edge of the wing. Where as the Browning 20mill conforms more to the shape of the leading edge. It still extends but is not nearly as predominate.
Notice the difference in these photos of a
F4U-1C
(http://www.vought.com/photos/images/1057_06.jpg)
And F4U-5
(http://www.vought.com/photos/images/1115_03.jpg)
AKSeawulfe,
Juzz is right. Goodyear manufactured thousands of F4U-1 and -1D's under the varient FG-1 or FG-1D.
Later
F4UDOA
Fd Ski, are you trolling or are you a Luftwable elitest?
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fdski is a proud Spheet fighter!
You see, they went up against the elite right from the start, whereas we Axis had to provide a soft start for the yanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Leave the poor F4U lovers alone now.
Their numbers shall dwindle when the D9 comes, and loud shall their whines be.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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I'll have to dig, but most jamming issues with the Hispano weren't from G problems, but a gap that lead to unsufficent force of the firing pin on the primer. Also, the US's heavy use of lubricants added to jamming problems at altitude, fixed by gun heaters.
Note that the Hispanos prone to jamming were the first blocks, that went into service before the talks with the British as far as improving the feeding and firing device. (and the British Hispano became slightly different from the US at this point, because they banned lubricants and had the chamber reduced by 1mm, fixing the fouling problem. The US decided it could deal with the problem, and fixed it in later versions)
Amoung other things, the gearing system for all of the Hispanos wasn't particulalry good, and sometimes only half-fed the next round. It could take up to several charges to get the round realigned, and even then, the unspent round did not always fall away from the disentegrating belt gearing system also failed under heavy G's, but this was also an issue with Browning M2 .50
- Jig
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total of 1,495 D3a's of different versions were built these included 2 prototypes 6 service trials and 470 D3A1 production aircraft.then followed a single prototype of an improved D3A2 model 12 with modified canopy, a 1300HP engine and increased fuel capacity.duly ordered as D3A2 modell 22.1016 D3A2's built by aichi (815)and showa (201).final variant D3A2-K bomber trainer of which an unspecified number of conversions were made from d3a2's late in the war.
hazed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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uhmm explain this c hog drivers
i was doing a little testing
please excuse my poor gunnery with hispano cannon I am not used to their trajectory, else the fight would have ended sooner (the spit not the f4u)
http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/f4u.ahf (http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/f4u.ahf)
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I was wrong about the FG-1 being the F2G, I read the information wrong. However, since the FG-1 is the F4U-1D built by Goodyear-- it does NOT have 20mms in WW2. All -1Ds had .50s only the -1C had 20mms.
-SW
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
uhmm explain this c hog drivers
i was doing a little testing
please excuse my poor gunnery with hispano cannon I am not used to their trajectory, else the fight would have ended sooner (the spit not the f4u)
http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/f4u.ahf (http://www.iit.edu/~buonmic/f4u.ahf)
Wow u got here fast Zig +)
heh at least i get a mention as the shot down msg...
SKurj
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F4UDOA, I think you will find that all cannon-armed Corsairs had Browning cannon. The difference evident in those photos probably being that the -1C has a copy of the Hispano Mk II, and the -5 has a copy of the Mk V which had a shorter barrel.
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I am not so much worried of F4u's performance, what comes to flying, but more of their 30mm AP/HE cannons.
If it hits plane, it is ripping things like 30mm HE round and when it comes to tanks, it is like 50mm AP.
It is funny that Hispano/M2 actually works better than 37mm on the tanks.
Even if makes just low angle ride on the front armour of the tank.
And we know that 37mm performs sometimes very very good at the tanks. (and Hispano/m2 even better?)
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I'm with Juzz, if I remember correctly all the "Hispano" cannons the US used were copies made by Browning or other manufacturers.
And before all the "Hog Haters" jump on the gunjam bandwagon, thinking its a basis to remove the -1C, lets not forget that gunjams occurred with all MG's and cannons (notice I say all cannons for instance the MG151), especially under high G loads. So it would be something that would be applied across the board.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 10-23-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
I'm with Juzz, if I remember correctly all the "Hispano" cannons the US used were copies made by Browning or other manufacturers.
And before all the "Hog Haters" jump on the gunjam bandwagon, thinking its a basis to remove the -1C, lets not forget that gunjams occurred with all MG's and cannons (notice I say all cannons for instance the MG151), especially under high G loads. So it would be something that would be applied across the board.
Hispanos had quite alot jams (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
and with those long bursts that they do against tanks... go figure the jamming rate.
More than that, power difference between other cannons is huge against tanks and planes.
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OK Zigrat, what exactly needs explaining?
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many of the goodyear -1's were made with no folding wings or tailhooks. They were lighter planes than any of the other Hogs and were considered the best "handlers" by pilots. All Corsairs have the best stick forces in WWII. They had mechanically boosed ailerons and were very light and easy to use at all speeds. All anecdotal eveidence shows that a Hog would turn with a Hellcat and any WWII (or later) pilot will tell you that a P51 was "no match" for a Corsair below about 20K.
The fifties in AH are problematic for me. They don't work in a repeatable manner. Sometimes they work and other times they don't. It is most likely the fault of the internet but.... Who cares? The results are unhistoric. Given a choice many pilots chose the fifty equipped versions. Many pilots shut off at least 2 of their 6 fifties to conserve ammo since they felt 4 was plenty against other fighters. In AH it would be foolish to shut off 2 fifties.
Because of these things I fly the cannon Hog instead of the fifty equipped one even tho it is easier to get hits with the fifties. Cuts down on my frustration level..
Yeager is correct... In a game where armement is selectable, and there is so much variance... why not allow planes to take whatever guns they had available? If everyone allways chooses cannon loadouts then perhaps the MG's need to be looked at.
lazs
[This message has been edited by -lazs- (edited 10-23-2000).]
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AKSeaWulfe,
I have a book quoting 1 stoppage per 1500 rounds of 20mm fired. Well that number is from the last year of the war and for 2nd Tactical Air Force only, but with 13500000 rounds fired it is probably worth something.
//fats
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Thanks Juzz,
Didn't know that. I thought the earlier versions were Hispano's and the later were Brownings. Didn't know that they were both Hispano copies.
AKseawulfe,
Ok now you understand what an FG-1D is but you need to reread my message. The Cover of Air Classics Magazine as well as Fly Past Mag this month shows a newly restored FG-1D with 20mil cannons in the wings. My point is that I think that this A/C was manufactured this way because I have seen a number like it. Specifically a number of FG-1D that were shipped to El Salvador and fought in the "Soccer Wars" of 1968. They were 20Mill equiped. But I am looking for Goodyear production records that show this.
Here is a pic of the new pace car at Indy this year. Get out of line and you get straffed and bombed.
(http://www.goodyear.com/aircraft/img/corseair_lg.jpg)
Later
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 10-23-2000).]
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you see thatcrazy film how i outflew a spitfire in a c hog? then shot him with my lasers? yeah pretty cool huh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
The fifties in AH are problematic for me. They don't work in a repeatable manner. Sometimes they work and other times they don't. It is most likely the fault of the internet but.... Who cares? The results are unhistoric. Given a choice many pilots chose the fifty equipped versions. Many pilots shut off at least 2 of their 6 fifties to conserve ammo since they felt 4 was plenty against other fighters. In AH it would be foolish to shut off 2 fifties.
Because of these things I fly the cannon Hog instead of the fifty equipped one even tho it is easier to get hits with the fifties. Cuts down on my frustration level..
Yeager is correct... In a game where armement is selectable, and there is so much variance... why not allow planes to take whatever guns they had available? If everyone allways chooses cannon loadouts then perhaps the MG's need to be looked at.
lazs
Remember that they were shooting zekes and other very flammable and paper like objects..
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fishu... late war jap planes had self sealing fuel tanks and pilot armor. P51's and p47's shot at german ac and found them quite as easy to down with 4, 6 or 8 fifties as their PAC war bretheren found late war jap planes. No particular "toughness" was attributed to non U.S. Euro planes that I know of except that 109's were considered easier to down than 190's. To lump all jap planes in the "rice paper" catagorie is naive.
lazs
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Right F4UDOA, except that my point is that refurberations/restorations are not always accurate. Sometimes they do it for looks, or just for the hell of it. I've seen 109Gs rebuilt that only had 2x 7,9mms in the cowling and 1x13mm MG firing through the nose. And those 20mm armed craft that were sent around in '68 were probably armed with .50s during WWII. Point is: No matter what they are armed with now, we are trying to recreate what they had back then. Otherwise, why not throw in a couple F4 Phantoms and see what happens? ;-) Find WWII production numbers on how many FG-1s had 20mms and I'll shut up(I know you are looking).
-SW
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Zigrat,
Great fight. But it looked to me as if the Spit was getting a clear overhead shot when he reversed over your head. If he would have tightened his turn instead of continuing to scissor(SP) he probably would have had you.
Instead he used the wrong tactic in the wrong plane. The Spitty at low speed will actually accellerate past the F4U. The F4U with two notches of flap and 50% fuel handles very well.
It is the perception of how the F4U is supposed to fly compared to reality. The F4U has a tag of "Ensign Eliminator" that relates to landing on A/C at 70knots. And the fact that they didn't dogfight with Zero's. This must mean that it can't dogfight right? Wrong. It had lower wingloading than the P-51, P-47, P-38 and was most comprable to the F6F. With two notches of flap and 50% fuel it becomes even better. You are engineering student Zig, you definitly know why this true. If you would like to do some offline testing in the SEA let me know. I would bet that you cannot escape me in a contstant left turn in F4U vrs Spit.
See ya Up
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 10-23-2000).]
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uhmm explain this c hog drivers
i was doing a little testing
please excuse my poor gunnery with hispano cannon I am not used to their trajectory, else the fight would have ended sooner (the spit not the f4uc
Um... the part where the Spit was only 300 yards back and couldn't get the shot?
The part where the spit missed maybe 6 snapshots on you?
The part where the spit did not hang at the top of the immelman even once.. rather continued through the turn as you hung for a better snapshot?
This film proves that the pilot makes the difference. The spit pilot blew it at the end and died. You blew it at the merge and lived.
I kinda missed it where you turned inside of him and retained better e and managed to zoom way over him than catch him in a dive. I guess what I'm really missing, is how this film in any way shape or form shows the uberness of the F4u-1c. Because it got a victory over a spit?
AKDejaVu
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This is the first reference I've every seen saying that the P-47 had a poorly designed and uncomfortable cockpit.
ra
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It's also the first account of an F4U with good departure characteristics.
They musta been flying on a thimble full with pressurized oil tanks.
F4UDOA, you are partly right about carrier landings and that designation. But it also did have relevance to torque induced ground loops. But that's nothing new. A P-51 will ground loop if you gun it. So will most other high-preformence fighter planes. The Corsair was only noteworthy because it had to do it all the time, due to the situations on carriers, and had more incedents because of it.
Gun jamming, blah. If there's going to be gun problems, barrel overheating would be alot better. No need for random calculations. You fire to long, the barrel warps, then melts if you keep at it.
Btw, I've seen a F4U-4D armed with 4 20mm. I've also seen an Avenger with twin 20mm's, and a F4U-1A armed with 4 20mm's. The 4D had Mark V barrels, and the 1A had Mk II.
None were correct. The F4U-4D at the LSFM had them put in because they couldn't get the M2 wing mounts. It was either use the 20mm banks or use pipes (like in the P-47D "Tarheel Hal")
Don't put to much faith in resoration planes.
- Jig
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Zigrat,
I think it was awfully nice of that spit pilot to keep flying in front of your cannons even though you were dead meat..is that what you meant? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bowser
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Zig most Full time Spit jocks would have had you after the first merge. That Spit was on you like white on rice. He screwed up you wound up with a snap shot and downed him! Congrats! I also noticed that the cannon hit on more than 1 occasion and did no damage hmmmm! The F4u seems ok to me except for the stall characteristics. I think all the planes recover to easily. I am used to WB's and stalls in all planes seemed to be modeled better. As far as cannons go I have seen real footage of planes hitting 3-4 times before a wing dropped off. I have also seen films when they just break off! In AH it drops off on 1 hit a lot. I feel they forgot to model the free space between the spars.
Congrats again on your kill!!
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Here is a link to the F4U development history.
http://www.djjp.demon.co.uk/F4U.htm (http://www.djjp.demon.co.uk/F4U.htm)
It is short and to the point. I have not been able to find any records from either Brewster or Goodyear in my searches over the years. I have been a fan of this plane for a very long time. However as Jig put it......"Don't put to much faith in resoration planes."
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Maj. LJK_Reschke
Kommandeur Jagdbomber,
StaffelKapitaen I-31 LJK
www.luftjagerkorps.com
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RA:
Some things like cockpit comfort are very subjective and every test-pilot has their own opinion. If you read the comments in AHT and the Joint Fighter Conference report you will see what I mean. In a US plane a "cramped and uncomfortable" cockpit probably means that the test-pilot had to reach "too far" to snag a coke from the cockpit fridge (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Hooligan
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LJK_Reschke,
I am looking very closely at 25 FG-1D's that were shipped to El Salvador in the 1950's.
So far all of the pictures of these birds either restored or in service with El Salvador were equiped with 20mill cannon.
Unfortunatly it is very hard to find data on these birds built by Goodyear or Brewster.
The second thing and something that is a pet peive of mine(I don't usually keep peives as pets but oh well). The web site that you pointed out is bogus. Not just that one though but most of them. I hate Warbird web sites. They almost always have mistated or hand me down information from a Flying game from day's of old. The comment about the F4U not being able to turn is silly. An F4U aerodynamically is better suited to a turning fight than most late war fighters.
Also the F4U on takeoff required less rudder trim than a F6F or P-40. If you read Tommy Blackburns auto-biography he discusses his squadron qualifing no problem on carriers in early model F4U-1's. He states that the reason for the F4U not being carrier qualified imediately had more to due with getting Vought spare parts aboard carriers and other logistic issues more than any handling vice of the F4U. He was the first Navy squad to fly the F4U during trials and volenteered to give up carrier duty to fly the F4U from a land base instead of flying the F6F from carriers. That is a heavy endorsement from a Naval Squadron Comander.
Later in the war Marine pilots suffered landing on carriers in the F4U but they were not carrier qualified. They forced to qualify while on combat duty. A tough task in any A/C. Not trying to preach, just venting my frustration with web mythology.
Later
F4UDOA
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F4UDOA; it's highly likely that those ex-WW2 FG-1D's were refitted for export, don't you think?
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jigster.... there are numerous references to hogs having good departure characteristics. One good one is the planes of fame video of the Corsair. A lot of Corsair old wives tales are shattered by actual demonstration.
lazs
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They added a little leading edge fairing to the right wing of the hog to help its stall and departure characteristics with the 1D. I'll give you more info later if you request it, but the book is at home.
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rip.. the strip is a piece of about 2" angle 6 inches long. It helps both wings stall about the same. A lot of guys removed em and couldn't really tell much difference. The Hog was considered very easy to fly except for full power on situations near stall (go arounds) Most planes do this too but few have to make carrier landings where inexperienced pilots (ensigns) run into this situation.
lazs
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Yeah, has anyone else seen references to the Jug having a poorly designed and uncomfortable cockpit? I've always seen american WW2 cockpits described as roomy, comfortable and efficiently laid out.
British and german cockpits, on the other hand are usually described as cramped, impossible to get into or out of and with an instrument panel like a bucket of tar that someone poured instruments in. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force
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Juzz,
You probably right. It may have been a retro fit. I Just would want to know when this retro fit took place? In the mid 1940's when the Navy transitioned to 20mill or in the 50's for the Korean conflict(although I don't think and F4U older than a -4 saw service in Korea)or before they were shipped to El Salvador. Then of course once in El Salvador two FG-1D's and one P-51D were shot down by Humberto Varella of Honduras in a F4U-5 in one day. Seems cool that there was combat of WW2 fighters in 1968, but I can't help but think what a waste of birds.
Hooligan and Rickenbacker, I didn't include the pilots comments on why they did't like the P-47 Cockpit. They used some kind of standards evaluation technique to determine the amount of leg room for the pilot and determined that it was only suited for approx 20% of the size range of pilots even with the fold down rudder peddles. Also there were three engine cooling swtches that they did't like because the pilot could not see them during combat and hitting the wrong one could be costly. They also included pictures of these switches. I will photo copy this entire report when I get a chance and post it. I am definetly not trying to knock the Jug. Just sharing the report conclusions. I am more concerned with the flying characteristics of these birds anyway.
Later
F4UDOA
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The reason for big US cockpits:
FAT tulips and BIG ego's.
Us LW drivers are man and machine, all in one beautiful combination.
I am StSanta of the LW. Resistence is futile. You will be assassinated.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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AKWabbit has 12 kills and has been killed 4 times in the P-51D against the F4U-1C.
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If I don't fear them in my paper thin pony (the wind blows and my wings fall off, not to mention the nerfed .50's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) then none of you should.
I think there are many who would do better training more and whining less. Then they might not have a problem with chogs.
But then for many, training isn't nearly as satisfying as whinning. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Regards,
Wab
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AKWabbit.....amen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And Zigrat, I watched your film and have these comments. What a good flight! I don't think you have proved anything against the f4u, but showed us all some good moves (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also, wasn't that fun? Isn't that what we're
playing this game for?
I think that the reality of it is this: If the f4u1c were the only plane available, the results of this game would be the same, some pilots are just better than others (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Nemo (just "nobody" that has flown the F4U in every flight sim that it was available and loved it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
One more thing. I have said in other post over the months regarding the F4u that it is the LW types that always complain about the Hogs in this game. I still believe that, but after going 2 weeks flying only LW planes I have to say, that in the latest patch anyway, that they don't really perform very well in here. For me anyway. Maybe the new D9 will even things up and keep things interesting. They will keep us looking up anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)