Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on April 23, 2003, 09:19:11 AM
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I took part in some heated discussions recently revolving around the starvation of iraqis and I believe I could have argued out of ignorance, so I am asking for help in clearing a particular issue.
Usually my "right-wing" opponents stated that:
iraqis were sarving because the money from the food-for-oil program were diverted by the regime for nefarious purposes and hence there was assumed shortage of money to buy food.
While my "left-wing" opponents stated that:
iraqis were starving because of UN embargo did not allow them to sell enough oil to purchase necessary food.
I had no problem with the first statement that the money were diverted for nefarious purposes except to point out that those could not have been money received for legal UN-approved sale of oil.
Since that oil-for-food money was never under control of iraqis but got deposited by approved oil importers directly into the UN accounts and spent by UN for food purchased and delivered by UN or under strict UN/US supervision. The amount was determined by UN according to perceived iraqi needs. Hence the allegations that those money were diverted are groundless. Whatever money was diverted were most likely obtained by the regime from illicit sale of oil smuggled through Turkey, Jordan and Syria and other sources. Of course the oil is iraqi treasure and any sale of it - even illicit one in addition to US quota - could be considered diversion of the resources, but I do not think that was what people making allegations had in mind.
There was a surplus of money in those UN accounts - about $20 billion. That means the left's allegations are false too and the shortage of funds could not have been a cause of starvation.
Bringing up those points inflicted righteous wrath on me as "Hussein-sympathiser" from the right or as a "pro-american defender of children-starving US imperialists" from the left.
Anyway, the source and control of money was not even the main interest for me in those discussions. It's the starvation alleged by both the right and left extremists and blamed on each other.
I made a search and found a lot of references to that "starvation" but only in editorial articles or forum posts or subtitles of some UN documents.
I have not found a single mention of seing a starving, emaciated iraqi people by any of multitude of western and other journalists swarming over Iraq over the last year.
I have seen hours of footage from the streets of iraqi towns before and during the conflict and have not seen anyone that would look like starving or calorically limited. I failed to unearth a single picture of a starving iraqi child or adult.
Those iraqis sitting in cafes or brandishing AKs or strolling on their business and complaining of loss of jobs and having to live on government handouts to the interviewers were looking quite decently-fed to me.
There are plenty of the images of maimed iraqi people blamed on americans, plenty of the images of starving people from third world countries also blamed on americans but not a single one of a starving iraqi that I could find.
I have not encountered any evidence of signs that invariably accompany the starvation - flood of refugees into neighbouring countries, stories of cannibalism, etc.
That made me insist that there was no such thing as starvation in Iraq to be blamed on right or left or on the regime or UN or US or Allah or whoever.
But since it is almost impossible to prove a negative (impossible logically but in practice we could measure every iraqi which I am not equipped to do), I may be arguing out of ignorance.
Did anyone of you ever saw a credible evidence by an eyewitness or better yet a picture or footage of anything that could be construed as starving or better yet chronically-starving iraqi? With so many people around the world and even in US blaming US government of starving iraqis, they must have made some effort to presend the "shocking" evidence, right?
No tricks here, not really eager for an argument - just the info. Where the heck are the starving iraqis? 500,000 - 1,200,000 million allegedely died from starvation. For every weakling that actually dies of starvation, there should be at least 10 looking starved but still living, which makes it 5-10 million out of the 25 million country. Should be hard to miss. Anybody saw one?
Anyone else interested in this mystery? If so, please indicate your curiosity here becasue some people who allegedely know it all expressed their disinclination to share any kind of information with me. But this is a public forum and they may still be talking to you.
Regards,
miko
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How many fat Iraqi's have you seen? If any, how many were Bath Party functionaries. Iraq's starvation wasn't as bad as, say, Ethiopia, but it's amazing how little food people actually need when if you complain about food, you get killed or tortured, or worse, they torture your wife and children in front of you.
As for the right and left of it, Miko, I don't really trust either side, but not because they are inherently untruthful, but because of the sbterfuge that surrounded that whole program (as it usually does when billions of dollars are involved). I stongly suspect it will be many years before the whole of the Oil for Food scam is uncovered. You have mentioned some of the salient facts, i.e. There was 20 billion left in the UN account. However, the press has reported that warehouses full of UN sanctioned food has been discovered in Bath party locations, that had never been distributed. There is no indiciation of Oil for Food distribution centers as were envisioned. So what happened to all that food. More importantly, who were the great beneficiaires of the Oil for Food programs. France and Russia mostly. Time will disclose proof of huge kickbacks to Bath party officials. The most obvious thing, though, is the fact that SH built dozens of "palaces" since the 1991 war. These "palaces" were huge compounds with dozens of massive and grossly ornate structures costing literally billiosn of dollars. Where did that money come from?.
I'm not arguing, as your post is great one. I don't have all the facts, obviously, but you have to ask yourself where did all that Oil for Food money go? It went to SH and his cronies. That it isn't easily proven is of no import, considering the difficulties in proving money laundering and fraud in other circmstances.
The UN, under the guise of "humanitarian aid" and altruistic motives, is used mostly by second rate opportunists to promote their own national agendas which usually means the recipient of the supposed aid comes in last place in priority.
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The argument from the "right" regarding the mishandling of funds has always been (as far as I know) in response to the "left's" allegation that Iraqis were starving. It was as simple as this exchange:
Left, "The sanctions are killing millions of Iraqis"
Right, "Well, if they are it's because their government is hoarding the money and supplies"
That's quite different from the "right" complaining about starving Iraqis.
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There was a report released by a UN 'expert' which claimed that UN sanctions were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children. It claimed that there were not enough medical supplies making through the sanctions. This isn't the same as starvation, but it implies the same situation, ie that the sanctions were too strict. This report was released in 2000, back when there was a big push to have the sanctions lifted, essentially to let Hussein have his way.
I would be curious to know the financial state of that UN expert.
ra
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His financial state is probably the same as the American UN Inspector who accepted 400,000 from SH to do a "documentary"
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His financial state is probably the same as the American UN Inspector who accepted 400,000 from SH to do a "documentary"
Source, please.
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Originally posted by Syzygyone
His financial state is probably the same as the American UN Inspector who accepted 400,000 from SH to do a "documentary"
Who was that? I'd like to read more.
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Ritter.
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The inspectors name was Ritter.
It was widely reported by the media when he came out against the use of force in Iraq last winter.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/sanction/iraq1/000731.htm
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Thanks. Yep, sure looks like he sold out to me.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-655976,00.html
Over the seven years of the Oil-for-Food programme, Russian companies got $7.3 billion of Iraqi business, almost twice as much as firms from any other country. Next on the list of leading trading partners were Egypt, with $4.3 billion; France, with $3.7 billion; and Jordan, the United Arab Emirates and China with $3 billion each.
Shows that the UN was duped all along and at least answers part of your inquiry.
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If there was $20 billion in savings and the Iraqi needed more food or medicine then who was controling the savings account?
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I got into an argument with Scott Ritter once, he seemed pretty wierd in his beliefs and he has never really reconsiled his sudden public about face regrding iraqs WMD. I got the inpression he was pompus and arrogant man who enjoyed his notreity and like the attention he was getting by cahllenging the US govt. About the $400,000 to make a movie IIRC called Shifting Sands, which was about the damage caused to iraqi people by UN sanctions - this money came from a US based iraqi business man with very close ties to the baath party and hussein. This man accompanied Ritter to iraq and facilitated his access in the country. I have not seen the movie, but I have heard it was the usual "approved" documentary you get in a police state.
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A situation I have not seen addressed here is the finding of rather large sums of cash recently. If there was such a cash flow problem, how did those bath officials manage to stockpile US currency like that? Where did it come from? Is this the result of collecting money for iraqi or islamic charitys? I don't know but I find the situation rather strange in light of all the claims that iraq didn't have money to buy food, medicine etc. for it's people.
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Syzygyone: How many fat Iraqi's have you seen?
I've seen dozens of iraqi up close and hundreds on the background and they looked like they carried more extra weight than, say, french or brits - especially women.
If any, how many were Bath Party functionaries.
I bet than very few of the people that I saw intervieved or filmed on the iraqi steet or iraqi POWs or 'aparty functionaries.
but it's amazing how little food people actually need when if you complain about food, you get killed or tortured
That does not make much sense to me. Iraqi regime's policy was to accuse UN/US of depriving/starving iraqi people through sanctions and of telling their people all their hardships were teh resulst of the sanctions - which they could not verify, not having free press. Surely the complaints about starvaton would have been promoted rather than suppressed by the iraqi regime - especially if the blaim was laid on US rather than that regime.
Quite a few people hostile to teh West were intervieved by journalists before invasion claiming that they would resist US invasion and fight for their country/government. Not one of those claimed that they were starving. Not one pointed "look at those poor starving people - look what you've done, americans", even though they had no problem blaming americans for destroyed property, etc.
There was 20 billion left in the UN account. However, the press has reported that warehouses full of UN sanctioned food has been discovered in Bath party locations
I am speculating here - no direct knowlege, I am warning you - but the stashes of food like the stashes of money does not automatically lead to conclusion that there was shortage of food or money elsewhere. It could have but it may have not.
There was a lot of crookery going on in UN around all those oil and food and I would not be surprised if extra food was shipped where it was not needed just to allow someone to make money importing it. Alternatively, the iraqi government could have stored the food as emergency reserves. every country has such.
It seems unlikely they expected to sell that food to iraqis and stff their pockets becasue the iraqis did not have real money to pay for it and the regime was making billions by illicitely selling smuggled oil anyway.
but you have to ask yourself where did all that Oil for Food money go? It went to SH and his cronies
SH had plenty of income from illicit sales of oil smuggled beyong UN quota. But how could he misapropriate oil-for-food funds? It was supposed to be collected, kept and spent by UN without ever coming into SH control. Do you have any references that would indicate otherwise?
AKIron: That's quite different from the "right" complaining about starving Iraqis.
That is a good point. But why counter a lie with a lie rather than just say "there are no starving iraqis"? Even if true, it only makes a very weak argument, since the left will argue that without embargo the iraqi regime would not have starved its people, so the blame may still be assigned to us - by imposing the embargo or designing it and administering the food-for-oil program in the wrong way.
The truth is that iraqis suffered a lot of deplorable deprivations because of embargo - which is why embargoes are used - but starvation was neither intent or result of such embaro if the evidence I (do not) see is correct. It certainly clears US from blame even it clears iraiqi regime of that blame as well. It may be hard for some to imagine that there is some evil the iraqi regime did not commit, but why be greedy? They were an evil regime, no doubt about it and there must be plenty real deeds to condemn them to hell.
ra: a UN 'expert' which claimed that UN sanctions were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children. It claimed that there were not enough medical supplies making through the sanctions. This isn't the same as starvation, but it implies the same situation, ie that the sanctions were too strict.
Syzygyone: His financial state is probably the same as the American UN Inspector who accepted 400,000 from SH to do a "documentary"
Besides some singular questionable expert there is a wealth of information available on the causes of deaths of those people - I've posted that info here few weeks ago I searched for that crap anyway... (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81374&highlight=sewage+iraq) .
Nevertheless, it's wery different from allegations of starvation, especially starvation caused by UN-controlled funds somehow being diverted into the regime's pockets.
Syzygyone: Check this out Mko http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-655976,00.html Shows that the UN was duped all along and at least answers part of your inquiry.
Sorry, Syzygyone - the article you link shows nothing to refute a any point in my statements.
True, the iraqi's arrangements with some buyers duped the UN - by providing the regime with the money which was contrary to the purpose of embargo.
But those money were not diverted part of oil-for-food money paid for oil into UN accounts and never coming under iraqi control but rather "kickbacks" - additional surcharge paid by buyers directly to the regime on top of full price paid to UN. Saddam was entrusted tos elect who to deal with but not to handle the oil-for-food money.
So iraqi regime did get extra illicit income that way which they also augmented by smuggling some oil and that is certainly a bad thing - and indication that embargo was not very successfull for all the hardship it caused. That does not mean the amount of oil-for-food money got reduced by a penny.
My questions here are pretty specific.
Was there a way for iraqis to misappropriate oil-for-food money?
Were there any iraqi starving?
Maverick: A situation I have not seen addressed here is the finding of rather large sums of cash recently.... I don't know but I find the situation rather strange in light of all the claims that iraq didn't have money to buy food, medicine etc. for it's people.
That is exactly the situation being plenty addressed here and elswehere. There are many sources for that money - hundreds of millions from the illegal surcharges on US-sanctioned oil sales and proceeds from oil illegaly smuggled through Turkey, Syrya, Iran and Jordan.
The claims that iraqi regime did not have money to buy food or did not want to is what we examine here. First, Iraq does not buy anything - that's why we have an embargo. Second, oil-for-food money is collected and spent by UN without iraqi involvement. Second, the $20 billion sitting unused in iraqi UN oil-for-food accounts were plenty to buy food or medicine if there was a need perceived ny UN and no objections from UN/US officials.
Iraqi import of some medical and other supplies and equipment allegedely got banned by US becasue it could have been used to develop WMDs or restore military infrastructure. That is very different from the lack of funds or iraqi's misuse of funds they had no control over.
miko
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I got into an argument with Scott Ritter once, he seemed pretty wierd in his beliefs and he has never really reconsiled his sudden public about face regrding iraqs WMD. I got the inpression he was pompus and arrogant man who enjoyed his notreity and like the attention he was getting by cahllenging the US govt. About the $400,000 to make a movie IIRC called Shifting Sands, which was about the damage caused to iraqi people by UN sanctions - this money came from a US based iraqi business man with very close ties to the baath party and hussein. This man accompanied Ritter to iraq and facilitated his access in the country. I have not seen the movie, but I have heard it was the usual "approved" documentary you get in a police state.
He needed the money to pay for his child molestation defense. Those lawyers are expensive.
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the UN was not "duped", the UN was part of the "oil for palaces" program, the UN knew exactly where the money was going because they had to OK it, except for the kickback money, SH had control of that.
i like the gold plated guns SH's son had
so far, $750 million USD in cash found in baghdad, the money wrapers say "bank of lebanon".
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Originally posted by miko2d
AKIron: That's quite different from the "right" complaining about starving Iraqis.
That is a good point. But why counter a lie with a lie rather than just say "there are no starving iraqis"? Even if true, it only makes a very weak argument, since the left will argue that without embargo the iraqi regime would not have starved its people, so the blame may still be assigned to us - by imposing the embargo or designing it and administering the food-for-oil program in the wrong way.
The truth is that iraqis suffered a lot of deplorable deprivations because of embargo - which is why embargoes are used - but starvation was neither intent or result of such embaro if the evidence I (do not) see is correct. It certainly clears US from blame even it clears iraiqi regime of that blame as well. It may be hard for some to imagine that there is some evil the iraqi regime did not commit, but why be greedy? They were an evil regime, no doubt about it and there must be plenty real deeds to condemn them to hell.
Sheesh Miko. Why is it a lie to say "I don't know if your leftist claims are true but if they are then it isn't for lack of funds or supplies available to Iraq".
The "truth" is that Iraqis suffered a lot of "deplorable deprivations" because of their selfish and uncaring leaders.
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I haven't really participated in the "Starving Iraqis" discussions because I saw little evidence of it. It seems if this were at epidemic proportions, we would have seen someone publishing stories on it.
Miko, in defense of the "Why hide a lie with a lie"... I don't think you are quite seeing it. You cannot prove Iraqis aren't suffering as a result, because, as you've stated, its impossible to prove a negative. If someone is using a lie that is difficult if not impossible to disprove, you simply turn the lie on itself. "If that's the case, you need to figure you why its happening. The money for food and medicine is there, but food and medicine aren't making it to the Iraqi people... WHY?"
I do think that the Iraqi government diverted money to the military. Things such as water and waste treatment plants suffered as a result. Where there may have been food, there was substandard water. Especially in the outlying areas. None of this was immediately life threatening, but would have been over time.
I'm hoping the issues in regards to the water treatment systems gets resolved as soon as possible. Right now, water seems to be worth its weight in gold.
I'm also hoping that sanctions against Iraq be lifted immediately. Not to do so is ignoring the reason they were imposed in the first place.
MiniD