Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: muckmaw on April 24, 2003, 09:22:37 AM
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Just coming across the wire now...MSNBC is reporting talks between N. Korea, S. Korea, US, and China have broken down.
N. Korea said they now have nuclear fuel...(Bear with me, it was a sound bite I jsut caught) and will sell it to others (No mention as to who) unless the US agrees to concessions.
Now is this Nuclear Blackmail, or is it me being paranoid?
The N. Koreans are basically holding a gun to our head, and teling us to give up our wallet.
This is getting ugly fast.
If we strike their facilites ala the Israeli raid in Iraq (1980?), will they go after S. Korea, Japan, and others?
We may have to get our hands dirty on the other side of the world again.....
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The time to light up NK has long since passed.. Lets get on with it.
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Time to call a session of the UN Security Council.
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Actually I think its more like the NKs are holding a gun to their own head.
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Let me be the first to spew it....
America was thretened by North Korea in no way, it was just plain ridiculous!
:cool:
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Jimbear, you by FAR have the best Avatar!
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Hey, I think Blix & Co. are available! I'm sure the French & Germans can get NK to let them in...........
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So the 'let's go down the diplomatic route' wasn't such a great choice afterall?
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We need Hans Blix. Only Hans Blix and Coffee-cup Annon can save us now.
It's times like these that I'm most comforted by the fact that we have the UN to protect us from these threats. If the UN didn't exist, we would be left on our own to deal with these threats!
Funny how you don't hear an outcry against NK from the "world leaders" of France and Germany or the UN. I guess when they have a real problem to solve they don't want to be heard.
The UN, France and Germany will probably only be heard from when it's once again time for them to become road-blocks to any possible US solution to the world's problem of NK.
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Does not seem to me like they want diplomacy.
I'm not speaking from a 100% imformed position here, as I said, it was a sound bite.
It seems to me like NK wants a check to go away, until they run out of cash again.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Does not seem to me like they want diplomacy.
I'm not speaking from a 100% imformed position here, as I said, it was a sound bite.
It seems to me like NK wants a check to go away, until they run out of cash again.
Yeah they want money, so they drag the US into this. Why is it a US problem that NK needs money? NK is trying to single out the US as the source of their problems........it comes naturally these days.
Funny how NK doesn't demand anything from China, their masters! Doesn't China support NK?
NK's position is a joke and if they need to be delt with militarily, it will be the US followed by our great British friends making the sacrifice I'm sure.
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Well, we've set a precedant with Iraq.
We perceived a threat of the proliferation of WMD with a Iraq as the source and intervened. The actual existance of these WMD has yet to be determined beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Now NK is saying..."We have Nukes....We will sell them."
We are beyond perception now. We're looking at a clear threat to our national security.
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Im dying to see how people will try and blame Bush for this one.
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China has distanced itself from NK in recent years. Even they realise the NK leadership is bonkers.
Like Muckmaw says - a precedent has been set. And NK seemingly want to exploit that.
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In my point of view, NK is a much more "moral" target than Iraq was.
I dont mean politically or strategically or national-security wise.
Hussein did horrible things to his people.. but he PALES in comparison to what that nutcase Kim has done to his.
And kim has nukes. And the means to lob a few to Japan and SK That is very,very frightening..and why the US has not already taken him out.
Kim saw Iraq go down, and saw that his only chance to survive was to build more nukes. Thats what he's doing now... and he's playing the saber-rattling game to get the US to sign a non-aggression pact with him.. which will never happen, and he knows it, but hes using this to gain time to build his nukes.
For when the coalition comes 'nockin , his only response would be to lob a nuke at Yokosuka (crappy missile tech would probably go off-target and hit Kyoto or something), and one at S.K. And then the Chinese will invade them.
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Originally posted by Dowding
China has distanced itself from NK in recent years. Even they realise the NK leadership is bonkers.
Like Muckmaw says - a precedent has been set. And NK seemingly want to exploit that.
I just don't understand their thinking, though.
They saw what we did to Iraq while it denied having WMDs.
What are we going to do toy a country that not only admits it has nuclear material, but threatens to sell it?
Do they really think they will get a check to go away? We're in a corner here. The US almost HAS to go in militarily now, lest the entire Iraqi liberation look like nothing more than an oil grab.
The reason for Iraqs invasion was the threat of POSSIBLE WMDs. At least, that's how it was packaged and advertised. Now NK says it HAS WMDs....we're cornered.
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NK know that a war with the US would cost the US armed forces some serious casualties. There was nervousness with just the few dozen in Iraq, how would public opinion react to thousands?
I'm no expert on the NK military machine, but I strongly suspect it is dozens of times more powerful than Iraq's.
NK are playing on that. Despots are usually not completely insane - they have to be fairly shrewd to maintain power.
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I seem to remember some talking head saying that NK doesn't really have fuel produced yet, but would likely bluff and threaten that they did, and then attempt to hold the US hostage to open our wallet up. I can't bring myself to believe this just yet, but if it is true, the surest and quickest way is to bomb the plant, ala OSIRAK!
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What NK wants is a resumption of the blackmail that the Clintonites were paying them.
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Yeah, bomb North Korea. And a thousand artillery guns would open up on Seul. And maybe, just maybe, they already have a nuke armed weapon?
Cruise missile diplomacy only works with weak nations who can't really do anything to fight back. The above scenario would be a disaster for the US.
I hope that the diplomatic route will work.
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Originally posted by funkedup
What NK wants is a resumption of the blackmail that the Clintonites were paying them.
Oooooh, very very well put!
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lol If you can blame the previous administration for a difficult situation, you will do. NK went maverick decades ago.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Yeah, bomb North Korea. And a thousand artillery guns would open up on Seul. And maybe, just maybe, they already have a nuke armed weapon?
Cruise missile diplomacy only works with weak nations who can't really do anything to fight back. The above scenario would be a disaster for the US.
I hope that the diplomatic route will work.
I hope diplomacy works, but Dowding, I am very surprised at your stance that NK would be a terrible enemy that could really do harm to us. Their army is starving and upaid. Their economy is in the crapper. Their military harware is even older than Iraq's. GO check it out on globalscurity.org.
While I do not want another war, if they do pose a threat, and Im not sure they do in reality, then do not want to underestimate any enemy, but I also do not want to over estimate them.
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Originally posted by Dowding
I'm no expert on the NK military machine, but I strongly suspect it is dozens of times more powerful than Iraq's.
Prior to the Gulf war in 1991, Iraq's Armed forces were considered the 4th most powerful in the world. NK was way down on the list.
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Then why has so much deferrence been paid to NK's capabilities for the last 50 years?
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4th largest, not 4th most powerful.
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Originally posted by Dowding
4th largest, not 4th most powerful.
Power ranking was 4th too if I'm not mistaken...been 13 years though...
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Originally posted by Dowding
lol If you can blame the previous administration for a difficult situation, you will do. NK went maverick decades ago.
What I said is a fact m8. DPRK blackmailed the Clintonistas, then let down their end of the deal. When Chimpy and his crew came into power, they noticed this and cut off the oil.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Power ranking was 4th too if I'm not mistaken...been 13 years though...
They are the 5th largest military. They are fanatical communists, indoctrinated since childhood by one of the most extreme Stalinist systems the world has known. They are well equipped. They have been dug into rugged terrain for 50 years. They have large forces within easy striking distance of Seoul. If there is war in Korea, we are talking 1M dead minimum.
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True Funked. But a tactic that has worked all the same. The old drug pusher/pimp idea - get them hooked and they'll do anything for you. We'll see if NK are prepared to 'go on the game' metaphorically speaking.
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No Dowding it didn't work. DPRK broke their side of the deal before the oil was cut off.
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Originally posted by Dowding
NK went maverick decades ago.
HEY HEY HEY!!!! Watch it Dowding!!!!!
Maverick threatens the US in no way. It's just rediculous!
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http://www.msnbc.com/news/859191.asp
~At one camp, Camp 22 in Haengyong, some 50,000 prisoners toil each day in conditions that U.S. officials and former inmates say results in the death of 20 percent to 25 percent of the prison population every year.
~Products made by prison laborers may wind up on U.S. store shelves, having been “washed” first through Chinese companies that serve as intermediaries.
~Entire families, including grandchildren, are incarcerated for even the most bland political statements.
~Forced abortions are carried out on pregnant women so that another generation of political dissidents will be “eradicated.”
~Inmates are used as human guinea pigs for testing biological and chemical agents, according to both former inmates and U.S. officials.
[/b]
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I really doubt that the US will strike first, militarily I mean. It'll be up to the North Koreans to start a war, if that's what they want.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I just don't understand their thinking, though.
If you are not born and raised Asian, its hopeless to try and understand their thinking (Chinese especially, Japanese somwhat, and Korean to a lesser extent).
Any "Gijan" (sp?) that tells you he understands the Asain thought process is either lying or stupid.
That assertation may sound like somthing out of a Klan meeting, but it actually is true.
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I would hope that the Japanese would be heavely involved in any military action against NK.
It's their backyard and I, for one, would like to see what kind of bellybutton kickin' they could do....if it became necessary.
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You see all trouble the USA started when we mercilessly forced into WW2, which they lost and were forced to give up Korea.. Its all americas fault!
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NK should have been the first on agenda. Saddam was a toothless heal hound compared to Kim. Saddam was not an immediate threat...NK has been a threat since their first missile launch that was capable of striking US bases and interests in the Pacific. NK has an active and successful nuke program...it would have been nearly impossible for Iraq to have re-constituted it's nuke weapons program to the level that NK currently has.
I still can't believe we wasted all of our international goodwill and stretched our military resources to remove a non-entity like Saddam when a truly dangerous lunatic was sitting in NK.
Glad the rest of you woke up finally.
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"They are the 5th largest military. They are fanatical communists, indoctrinated since childhood by one of the most extreme Stalinist systems the world has known. They are well equipped. They have been dug into rugged terrain for 50 years. They have large forces within easy striking distance of Seoul. If there is war in Korea, we are talking 1M dead minimum."
Bahahahaha!!!!!
"They are dug into rugged terrain." Cool, this will just make it easier to go around them. NK cannot sustain any kind of military action, they are broke. Fanatical communists. Bahahahahaha!!!
Starving people aren't fanatical about anything, they just want to eat. I do believe we would suffer more causalities than in Iraq. But NK is a paper tiger.
In 1991, there was much talk about how Iraq had the 3rd largest army... blah blah blah.
NK is nothing but bluster, their ONLY hope for killing people is that they successfully detonate nuclear weps. In a conflict, their "army" would alternate between dying in their rugged terrain to smart bambs and to starving to death. No need to fight their war. Have you learned nothing in the last few weeks?
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I'd say the weak link was taken out first before it drank its milk and became a real threat crowmaw.
Next up!
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Steve you need to educate yourself a little more about the DPRK military. The reason civilians are starving is because the government diverts a huge amount of their GNP towards the military. Their military is well fed, well equipped, fanatical, and more importantly they are numerous. And they do have significant fixed defenses, preplanned artillery fires, etc.
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funked, the only danger in NK is their nukes.
A very numerous military in a small country only means them bombs get more per blast ;)
But seriously though, without their nuke threat, NK army would still be pounded to oblivion from the air a-la gulf war style.
And god help them if they launch at Japan. The JDF only needs the excuse to go into Korea and finally beat the stuffing out of it (well, the north at least).
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Originally posted by funkedup
The reason civilians are starving is because the government diverts a huge amount of their GNP towards the military. Their military is well fed, well equipped, fanatical, and more importantly they are numerous. And they do have significant fixed defenses, preplanned artillery fires, etc.
This sounds familiar......the same was said about a Mid-East country that is now occupied by the US.
It's gonna be a while before they clean up all the burned out tanks and artillery there.
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Originally posted by OIO
funked, the only danger in NK is their nukes.
If there was a war, DPRK would lose. But not before they flattened Seoul with artillery.
And yes our air power would dominate, but not without significant losses. They have a lot of air defense equipment.
Also it's unlikely we would have the amount of air prep time we had against Iraq. If DPRK starts the war, then we would have zero air prep, and they would be able to really put a hurting on ROK targets and cities near the border. If we start the war, then DPRK would still be able to shell the crap out of ROK before we whittled down their air defense and artillery capabilities.
And they have enough men that a ground invasion of DPRK would be very costly in terms of USA/ROK/civilian lives. Much different terrain and greater density of troops than Iraq.
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Originally posted by Curval
This sounds familiar......the same was said about a Mid-East country that is now occupied by the US.
It's gonna be a while before they clean up all the burned out tanks and artillery there.
Have you ever seen any of their parades or demonstrations? Hitler had nothing on Kim. Hundreds of thousands of people screaming, marching, dancing in unison. This is nothing like Iraq.
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"Steve you need to educate yourself a little more about the DPRK military. The reason civilians are starving is because the government diverts a huge amount of their GNP towards the military. Their military is well fed, well equipped, fanatical, and more importantly they are numerous. And they do have significant fixed defenses, preplanned artillery fires, etc."
Bahahahahah!!! I guess you have learned nothing. Before the gulf war in 1991, the same foolishness was spouted about Iraq. Let me educate you, we kicked the crap out of them and we had very few smart bombs.
Why do you think we would walk up to their defenses and slug it out with them? You thinking because they have lots of guys in uniform that they are an effective fighting force. Their army is not well fed or well equipped. You are right though, they are numerous. That's a lot of hungry soldiers.
We'll bomb them into submission, and those that do not starve will come crawling out of their holes.
Funked, read some recent history. You're still thinking in stategies long proven archaic.
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"Have you ever seen any of their parades or demonstrations? "
Bahahahah !!!
Yes, 1991 in Iraq.
Baahahahahahahahaahaha!
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"Also it's unlikely we would have the amount of air prep time we had against Iraq"
you have a great point right there. NK will not allow a buildup.
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The Chinese are not likeing what is going on with ol Kim sum Dum.
They know that NK nukes will in turn the Japanese into a Nuclear player also. With all the bad blood between the Japanese and the Chinese, that is a bad precedent for Asia. The Chinese have lost alot of face with the SARS issue, they will be in a position to regain some with a sucessful resolution of this issue. Where are the NKs defenses the weakest? Its not in the South.
Wonder if we can get the UN to pay for a mercenary Chinese army to "occupy" NK ?
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ya it sould only cost a few YEN right?
:D
j/k
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Starting an anti-ballistic missile system doesn't sound like such a stupid idea after all huh?
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Originally posted by funkedup
If DPRK starts the war, then we would have zero air prep, and they would be able to really put a hurting on ROK targets and cities near the border.
Agree with much of what you say but I wouldn't say we have "zero air prep". We do have a couple of significantly armed US Air Force Bases (F16s) there as do the South Koreans. Also, Kadena is in short striking distance as well, lotta F15s there.
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Do you think we don't have the NK fixed defenses pre targeted already. Do you think that NK has any artillery that we don't know about.
We only used about a third of our cruise missle in OP Iraqi Freedom. How soon do you think we could get several hundred of them on target in NK? It wasn't the air prep that took time in this Gulf War. It was getting the ground troops there. During the build up, noone except the Pentagon knew that it had chosen to change the 1991 tactics and to launch the ground blitz before the air campaign. That won't be necessrary in NK I don't think.
More importatnly, I don't think there will be ANY dallying by SK or Japan in using their soil or airspace to support any effort we have to make.
I hope it doens't come to more conbat but if it does, I am not as pessimistic as some on this thread seem to be. I agree with Steve. They have a big army but it is ill fed, ill equipped and unpaid and the do not have an ecconomy that can support any kind of conflict. More importatnly, Russia and China won't help them so what do they have for support.
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Originally posted by MrLars
I would hope that the Japanese would be heavely involved in any military action against NK.
It's their backyard and I, for one, would like to see what kind of bellybutton kickin' they could do....if it became necessary.
Our constitution will not allow us to invade another country. Our hands are tied on this one at the moment.
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We should just starve them out then give them to China as a goodwill gesture.
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Originally posted by MrLars
I would hope that the Japanese would be heavely involved in any military action against NK.
It's their backyard and I, for one, would like to see what kind of bellybutton kickin' they could do....if it became necessary.
Yep, could be interesting.
(http://www.military-powers.com/photo/90/90-99-04.jpg)
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Originally posted by Jack55
Yep, could be interesting.
(http://www.military-powers.com/photo/90/90-99-04.jpg)
Our tanks on Korean soil??? Nahhhh.... just the thought of it makes me nervous.
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What's that lil thang? Is that anime noseart? ;)
(Seriously ... sharp)
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I have a pretty strong feeling the South Koreans will NOT be happy with Japanese forces on their peninsula.
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Right dutch. But a single NK missile hitting Japan is enough to legally condone the entire JDF overrunning NK.
Yes, the SK's wont be happy, but then again, they will likely be VERY GLAD that the JDF forces are helping out. Itd be like Iraq kinda.. happy that they are there while the bullets fly, but getting pissy n' french after the lead flingin' stops.
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Originally posted by Arlo
What's that lil thang? Is that anime noseart? ;)
(Seriously ... sharp)
I guess turret art would be more accurate.
(http://www.military-powers.com/photo/90/90-009.jpg)
(http://www.military-powers.com/photo/90/90-014.jpg)
(http://www.military-powers.com/photo/90/90-p6/90-p6-005.jpg)
(http://www.military-powers.com/photo/90/90-p5/90-p5-001.jpg)
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Closer inspection reveals it's not anime! Good. I have faith. :D
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I did not realize the JDF still flew the Rising Sun.
Silly me! I thought that was abandoned long ago.
Meanwhile, anyone getting the impression George Bush Jr. Is the "Closer" for other Presidents?
*laughs*
I mean, he finished Iraq for his Dad, He's now eyeball to eyeball with Korea to help out old Harry S.
Whats next? Are we going back to Vietnam?
:D
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I did not realize the JDF still flew the Rising Sun.
Silly me! I thought that was abandoned long ago.
Meanwhile, anyone getting the impression George Bush Jr. Is the "Closer" for other Presidents?
*laughs*
I mean, he finished Iraq for his Dad, He's now eyeball to eyeball with Korea to help out old Harry S.
Whats next? Are we going back to Vietnam?
:D
Cuba!
(http://www.imagesjournal.com/issue09/reviews/eldorado/pic2.jpg)
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Originally posted by muckmaw
I did not realize the JDF still flew the Rising Sun.
Silly me! I thought that was abandoned long ago.
Meanwhile, anyone getting the impression George Bush Jr. Is the "Closer" for other Presidents?
*laughs*
I mean, he finished Iraq for his Dad, He's now eyeball to eyeball with Korea to help out old Harry S.
Whats next? Are we going back to Vietnam?
:D
I thought it was a Japanese naval flag. Surprisingly, their army is flying the sunburst flag or whatever it is called.
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Originally posted by OIO
Right dutch. But a single NK missile hitting Japan is enough to legally condone the entire JDF overrunning NK.
Ahhh... western thinking. This is not the case in Japan. For example, if a man shoots at me with a gun first, while I do have the right to subdue him, I am not allowed to even put a scratch on him. Any injury that I put on him would be considered an excessive use of force. And I would be charged with physical assault. That is the law in Japan. The concept of self-defense is not the same as the United States or in Europe.
Originally posted by OIO
Yes, the SK's wont be happy, but then again, they will likely be VERY GLAD that the JDF forces are helping out. Itd be like Iraq kinda.. happy that they are there while the bullets fly, but getting pissy n' french after the lead flingin' stops.
If sh*t hits the fan, I sure hope that we can help out and I hope the South Koreans would be glad in such cases. However, given our past...
In case of a conflict on the Korean peninsula again, logistics will be a problem for us as we are incapable of offensive tactics. Our constitution is written in English by the Americans, modelled after the American constitution, with an amendment saying we are not allowed to arm. Cold War dictated that on a practical level we needed to adequately defend our country from the threat from the north. Our Self Defense Force, while armed, is not considered as a military force, but more in the nature of a police force whose jurisdiction is within the borders of Japan. We can defend, but an offensive is a tactic not considered in the development of the Self Defense Force.
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From MSNBC site:
The North’s Korea People’s Army vowed to “put all people under arms and turn the whole country into a fortress” and urged its soldiers to become “human bombs and fighters ready to blow up themselves” to protect leader Kim Jong Il.
“If the U.S. imperialists and their followers intrude into even an inch of the inviolable sky, land and sea of the [North] ... the [army] will deal merciless deadly blows at the aggressors,” North Korean Defense Minister Kim Il Chol was quoted as saying by KCNA.
Who else talks like that?
Why do these guys always sound like they're reading from an old 1950's "C" movie script?
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Originally posted by Toad
From MSNBC site:
Who else talks like that?
Why do these guys always sound like they're reading from an old 1950's "C" movie script?
Because they learn to speak English by watching 1950s-era American "C" movies. ;)
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Guys..N-Korea aint no joke. This ISNT an Iraq. A conflict w/NK would bring ALOT of body bags home people. It wouldnt be no walk over. The NK's are alot different than the Iraqies..ALOT. The family in charge has developed as serious cult of personality...its like a bunch of rabid Moonies.
NK has has the means to hit Soul for along time... and it would NOT surprise me if they had nukes. The thing to remember is that they WILL use them. No doubt about it..they will.
The NK's are like a bunch of inbreed whisky drunk crack addicts from the hills of W Va.
The entire situation is very very dangerous....
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So?
What do you do about it now? Give them everything they want immediately? How long do you think the world will be able to appease them? What message will you be sending the other crackpot dictators?
Not to worry.... we have the UN SC on the job even as we type here.
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But a single NK missile hitting Japan is enough to legally condone the entire JDF overrunning NK.
How exactly would Japan get its army to NK?
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Has anyone considered the possibility of a full Nuclear Exchange?
Some folk posting here say that NK is a tough nut and they've GOT NUKES!!!
Your right, they are a tough nut, but do they have the balls to use those Nukes?
If they do, would we not be allowed to unleash our ICBMs?
Of course, if a Nuclear Missle came toward Hawaii, or California, we would have every right to light them up like there is no tomorrow, and for them...well, there would not be.
I would assume, we can do the same if they launched a Nuclear attack on SK, or Japan. Am I correct in this assumption?
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Ra, theres a FERRY that runs for 10 minutes from the tip of Japan to South Korea... just under the border with NK. Not to mention warships, transports, etc.
Dutch, you cannot possible believe your government will just allow NK to lob a missile and hit one of your cities and just "let it be". You fellas are not in an Israel-like situation; if you get hit, the only ones getting in deep **** are those that lobbed the missile. And the JDF is not a "defensive" force, its an actual military with full offensive capabilities; they are only limited by the constitution. True, it is not as large or as radically massively armed as the US, UK or Australia, a "defense force" cant be justified if its big. But you can bet your arse the JDF is ready to perform any offensive action it may be called upon.
I dont mean to tell you how things are in your own country, far from it! All i'm trying to say is one thing is what is advertised for the benefit of the public (including international public) and another is cold, logical reality. No military ever exists without it having contingency plans for offensive operations, the JDF is no different, and given its purpose and the reason for which it was created, its virtually guaranteed they are ready to go out and kick arse.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Has anyone considered the possibility of a full Nuclear Exchange?
I'd much prefer surgical nuclear strike over a full exchange? So much more tidy that way! That way the massived EMP won't destroy the whole SK and Japanese industry. But, that's just a thought."
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Originally posted by Airhead
Because they learn to speak English by watching 1950s-era American "C" movies. ;)
Hehe, similar reason South Korea has such a high highway fatality rate, they learned to drive from American GIs.
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Originally posted by AKIron
Hehe, similar reason South Korea has such a high highway fatality rate, they learned to drive from American GIs.
Hey now, don't go getting all stereotypical and such. Them's our fathers and grandfathers you be dissing!
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Originally posted by Toad
So?
What do you do about it now? Give them everything they want immediately? How long do you think the world will be able to appease them? What message will you be sending the other crackpot dictators?
Not to worry.... we have the UN SC on the job even as we type here.
Naaa... wasnt saying to appease them Toad. I'm simply telling peps that NK aint no Iraq. Yea... we'd kick thier bellybutton but the butchers bill will be alot higher.
And if they have nukes...they'll use them. The entire mentality of the NK population is FAR different than that of the Iraqi's.
What we have is a potential mess that could rival anything seen such WW2...
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Originally posted by OIO
Ra, theres a FERRY that runs for 10 minutes from the tip of Japan to South Korea... just under the border with NK. Not to mention warships, transports, etc.
Dutch, you cannot possible believe your government will just allow NK to lob a missile and hit one of your cities and just "let it be". You fellas are not in an Israel-like situation; if you get hit, the only ones getting in deep **** are those that lobbed the missile. And the JDF is not a "defensive" force, its an actual military with full offensive capabilities; they are only limited by the constitution. True, it is not as large or as radically massively armed as the US, UK or Australia, a "defense force" cant be justified if its big. But you can bet your arse the JDF is ready to perform any offensive action it may be called upon.
I dont mean to tell you how things are in your own country, far from it! All i'm trying to say is one thing is what is advertised for the benefit of the public (including international public) and another is cold, logical reality. No military ever exists without it having contingency plans for offensive operations, the JDF is no different, and given its purpose and the reason for which it was created, its virtually guaranteed they are ready to go out and kick arse.
Sorry, this is a path we should not be taking, given our past history. We are guilty of what we did some 60 years ago, and should not be allowed to repeat it in anyway. Even if a missile is fired on us, we are not to invade the Korean peninsula ever again. Our only hope is to shoot it down before it reaches our soil. This is a price we have to pay for what we did during WW2.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
If they do, would we not be allowed to unleash our ICBMs?
More likely the response would be carried out by B-2's. If China sees a missile heading in their general direction who knows what they will do. Also the Russians have a crappy missile warning system which might misinterpret the launch.
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Originally posted by funkedup
More likely the response would be carried out by B-2's. If China sees a missile heading in their general direction who knows what they will do. Also the Russians have a crappy missile warning system which might misinterpret the launch.
Alright, simple fix, we just make some of the Cruise missles.."Specials".
Can a Tomahawk carry a nuclear warhead?
What about a Sub Launched Missle? I know we have the Boomers out there, but would that trip the Russian/Chinese warning system?
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Cruise missiles would be a possibility. Tomahawk and ALCM and ACM were all designed for the primary role of carrying nukes.
SLBM would carry the same risks as ICBM.
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Not just B2s, B1s could slip in undetected as well.
When I was stationed at Canon AFB, '77-'78, it was reported that of all the planes in the US inventory, the F-111 was the one most feared by the Soviets. The reason: it's high speed low level radar evading flight capabilities. That the B1 has a similar flight profile is no accident.
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I don't buy the Chinese are motivated by capitalism or loss of face or other related reasons why the Chinese are uncomfortable regarding NK.
I have believed all along, that it is indeed the Chinese who are behind this nuclear posturing....they are watching us...a test so to speak. Taiwan needs to watch their backs through all of this.
Just my theory and gut instinct.
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WHO, IF NOT US?
WHEN, IF NOT NOW?
WHERE, IF NOT HERE?
Sometimes, the ball seeks you out and you have to make the play, ready or not.
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First: Who does NK owe money and do those nations have veto power in the UN?
Second: It would be nice if China resolved this situation. Afterall, they are pretty much responsible for it.
Third: Under no condition should Japan be involved in anything Korean. This would be akin to Israeli tanks accompanying U.S. tanks into Iraq.... only 10 times worse.
MiniD
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Rude,
I concur...
I can't imagine NK bucking up against the world without some form of "enticement" from a larger power behind the scenes.
If China does have something to do with it, I believe they're only using NK as a pawn to test the powers that be. If things go badly however, I do believe they'd turn their back on NK in a heartbeat and activate plausible deniablity immediately...
I just have a funny feeling that NK is being prodded by someone who is telling them "they've got their back" behind the scenes.
Is it possible that Kim is just a raving lunatic with no sense of reality? Absolutely... But my gut tells me different.
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"Sorry, this is a path we should not be taking, given our past history. We are guilty of what we did some 60 years ago, and should not be allowed to repeat it in anyway. Even if a missile is fired on us, we are not to invade the Korean peninsula ever again. Our only hope is to shoot it down before it reaches our soil. This is a price we have to pay for what we did during WW2."
That way of thinking lasts only as long as there's no missiles raining on your heads. by the 1st or the 2nd or 3rd rocket good ol' kim lobs over, the word "invade" will have a completely different meaning. Especially if this invasion party is done side-by-side with the US/UK+Commonwealth/S.Korea .
And frankly, I dont believe for a single second that the Japanese of today would ever repeat what they did back in WW2. Its a completely different society and times now.
Besides, the US tank crews could use some nose art lessons. :) :D
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Originally posted by GrimCO
Rude,
I concur...
I can't imagine NK bucking up against the world without some form of "enticement" from a larger power behind the scenes.
If China does have something to do with it, I believe they're only using NK as a pawn to test the powers that be. If things go badly however, I do believe they'd turn their back on NK in a heartbeat and activate plausible deniablity immediately...
I just have a funny feeling that NK is being prodded by someone who is telling them "they've got their back" behind the scenes.
Is it possible that Kim is just a raving lunatic with no sense of reality? Absolutely... But my gut tells me different.
I'd really have to think China would in no way want NK to have nukes either. Right now, they are the big cheese in that region.
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Originally posted by OIO
That way of thinking lasts only as long as there's no missiles raining on your heads. by the 1st or the 2nd or 3rd rocket good ol' kim lobs over, the word "invade" will have a completely different meaning.
Please re-read my post again, this does not justify for us to kill another man. As I said, this is western thinking.
Originally posted by OIO
Especially if this invasion party is done side-by-side with the US/UK+Commonwealth/S.Korea .
I do wish Japan will be fighting side-by-side with the South Koreans. However, we are still addressing problems about comfort women for example. Do you really think we can put our tanks on Korean soil?
Originally posted by OIO
And frankly, I dont believe for a single second that the Japanese of today would ever repeat what they did back in WW2. Its a completely different society and times now.
Please go research into what our governor of Tokyo says. He is very charismatic, and frankly he is an effective politician. His environmental policies are very good. However, what he says militarily scares me. Also, please go research into former Prime Minister Mori, who in my opinion is an embarrassment to our country and see what he said. With these guys in power, do you think we will not be military state ever again?