Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Duedel on April 25, 2003, 02:20:03 AM
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Does anyone have real live reports or articles about this beautifull plane in combat?
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Messerschmitt Me 210/410 in Action (Aircraft, No 147)
Product Details
Paperback: 49 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.25 x 8.50 x 11.25
Publisher: Squadron/Signal Pubns; (December 1994)
ISBN: 0897473205
Average Customer Review: Based on 1 review. Write a review.
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 823,733
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yep i got some good stuff i will try and find for you...
what i do know is it was supposed to be a replacment for the 110 but it was just as impotent in its role.. in other words it stunk..:D
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i thought the 210 stunk, but the 410 they solved the probs, and it was a good plane?
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no
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I have one accout somewhere about a Spitfire Mk IX vs. running Me410 fight over Italy.
Short version:
Two Spitfire Mk IXs happened upon a co-E Me410. The Me410 dove to the deck for speed and tried to run. One of the Spits gave up shortly, but the other persisted. Once the pursuing Spit came withing range the tailgunner on the Me410 attempted to shoot the Spitfire down, but was unable to score any hits on the non-manuevering Spitfire due to the ineffective tail gun aiming system. The Spitfire contiuned to slowly overtake the Me410 after the Me410's tail guns ran dry, pulling in to range (probably less than 300 yards). The Spitfire then proceded to blow the crap out of the Me410 with it's Hispano 20mm cannon.
Me410: 0
Spitfire: 1
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I would luv to see this bird in AH.
It's fast, well armed and would see more use than either version of the ME110.
Which probably means we will never see it.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
I would luv to see this bird in AH.
It's fast, well armed and would see more use than either version of the ME110.
Which probably means we will never see it.
Actually that is one of the points my story was meant to illustrate. It wasn't fast. It got run down in a long tail chase by a Spitfire Mk IX. That is something that a P-38L or Mosquito Mk VI would not have been.
I'd like to see the Me410 as well, but people greatly over estimate it I think.
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Well I should say it's fast at certain alts.
If I am not mistaken it was about a 390MPH bird at 20K?
Does anyone have charts on it?
Where have all the Luftweenies gone?
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390mph sounds about right for its top speed, but 390 isn't all that fast at 20,000ft, and speed at 20,000ft isn't all that useful for a aircraft that would see most of its use as a ground strike platform.
It would be a sitting duck, a neat sitting duck, but a sitting duck nonetheless.
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A little bit of digression..
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I think, personally, no amount of 'fast and famous' jabo planes will ever be used over the P-38L, Typhoon, or P-51D and F4U-1D.
I mean hey, I thought I heard people saying 1000lbs loadouts were pretty rare in real life, and they were more like 'theoretical overloaded ordnance' or something. However, in AH, there can't possibly be any reason to take up a Mossie or a 110 rather than a P-38L, unless one is a dedicated RAF or LW fan.
The only way a historically famous jabo plane would ever be appreciated in the MA, is when the MA itself comes to resemble history, or rather, a certain aspect of history such as the limitations in time-line(something like a RPS).
However, without any usage of RPS, which many people hate, the only alternative to save some historically significant planes from being a 'sitting duck', is by making the MA itself a mid/late'43-ish arena, as suggested by me in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80578&highlight=community)(16th and 25th post)
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now.. back to the topic.. :D
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Kweassa said:
I think, personally, no amount of 'fast and famous' jabo planes will ever be used over the P-38L, Typhoon, or P-51D and F4U-1D. I mean hey, I thought I heard people saying 1000lbs loadouts were pretty rare in real life, and they were more like 'theoretical overloaded ordnance' or something. However, in AH, there can't possibly be any reason to take up a Mossie or a 110 rather than a P-38L, unless one is a dedicated RAF or LW fan.
For attacking an nme field, I'll take a 110G over a P38. P51, or Typhoon any day. You're talking Vulchasaurus germanicus :D. It can carry more ordnance, has more firepower, can carry both much further, and fights very well on the deck if you don't get stupid with it.
The 110G can carry 2x500kg (aka 1100#) bombs, 2x20mm, 2x30mm, 4x50kg bombs, and 2 DTs all at the same time. The P38 can't even touch that. Hell, the 2x30mm alone can kill a VH with strafing. So you can kill the VH and any GVs that are already up no problem, then vulch to your evil heart's content. Or leave the big bombs at home and take 2 more 20mm instead. And you'll usually survive, unless you get stupid. I don't know why anybody flies anything else in the field attack mode.
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I'd probably take the P-38 over the 110. 2 1k's and 10 rockets are more useful than 2 1ks and 4 100 pounders. Ever tried strafing a Flakpansie with a 110? Around 1150 people have this month, they all died.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I'd probably take the P-38 over the 110. 2 1k's and 10 rockets are more useful than 2 1ks and 4 100 pounders. Ever tried strafing a Flakpansie with a 110? Around 1150 people have this month, they all died.
I usually don't have much problem with Ostis in the 110. Or any other plane. It's all in the timing and the careful use of anonymous friendly dweebs for bait while you blindside them ;). FPs are only dangerous in 2 situations:
- 1. You come at them alone and without surprise.
- 2. You ignore the ones at the end of the runway while you try to vulch.
Sometimes an FP dweeb will get lucky and zingo you in other situations, but most couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if they were in it with the doors closed.
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BH3841 has 2 kills and has been killed 2 times against the Ostwind.
BH3841 has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time against the Ostwind.
BH3841 has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times against the Ostwind.
BH3841 has 0 kills and has been killed 2 times against the Ostwind
BH3841 has 1 kill and has been killed 2 times against the Ostwind.
BH3841 has 1 kill and has been killed 3 times against the Ostwind.
thats back 6 tours
5 kills 10 Deaths
urchin has 23 kills and has been killed 6 times against the Ostwind.
urchin has 14 kills and has been killed 6 times against the Ostwind
urchin has 2 kills and has been killed 2 times against the Ostwind
urchin has 1 kill and has been killed 0 times against the Ostwind.
urchin has 21 kills and has been killed 9 times against the Ostwind.
urchin has 34 kills and has been killed 12 times against the Ostwind.
95 kills 35 deaths
110 vrs ost
BH3841 has 1 kill and has been killed 1 time in the Bf 110G-2 against the Ostwind.
BH3841 has 0 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Bf 110G-2 against the Ostwind.
BH3841 has 0 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Bf 110G-2 against the Ostwind.
BH3841 has 0 kills and has been killed 1 time in the Bf 110G-2 against the Ostwind.
BH3841 has 0 kills and has been killed 0 times in the Bf 110G-2 against the Ostwind.
BH3841 has 1 kill and has been killed 1 time in the Bf 110G-2 against the Ostwind.
2 kills 3 deaths
I dont feel like checking Urchins p38 and 110 vrs ostie scores but they are most likely a bit better then that.
The fact is any 50cal plane is a better attack aircraft then any other and like kweassa said unless something changes planes like the 190f8, il2, stuka will always be second rate attack aircraft in ah.
just fyi the 410 wasnt necessarily an attack aircraft and neither was the 110. Either 110 (g or c) can handle themselves in AH. In rl the 110 was deployed wrong in the BofB thus it had a poor reputation. As a twin eng hvy fighters B'n'Z'n it can hold it own.
In ah it catches fire easy and has a very weak tail it a decent bomber interceptor and can turn surprisingly well.
The 210 had problems with it tail and was fixed in the 410. In fact the 410 was real close to the original 210 but it rumored to have been designated "410" to escape the bad reputation of the 210.
Adding a 210/410 to ah would be wonderful but it would rarely be used and if anything its usage would just replace that of the 110.
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Duel 13mm in the tail would be as accurate as any tail gun we have. With a slow over take speed it would be a very effective plane in this game I think.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Duel 13mm in the tail would be as accurate as any tail gun we have. With a slow over take speed it would be a very effective plane in this game I think.
Only if it is modeled incorrectly. Modeled correctly it would be horribly inaccurate as the Me410's tail gun system was over-complicated for the engineering capabilities of the day.
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Karnak said:
Only if it is modeled incorrectly. Modeled correctly it would be horribly inaccurate as the Me410's tail gun system was over-complicated for the engineering capabilities of the day.
The US and Germans both put a fair amount of effort into remote-control turrets, both on operational planes and some that didn't get beyond prototypes. Some systems seem to have worked pretty well, too. So was it something peculiar to the 410's system or what?
BTW, seems to me that only 1 of the 410's guns could bear on most targets.
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deudel i have a ton of docs all in german about the 410. Performance charts you name it.
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I have read numerous reports of 410 rear gunner getting kills. I know one off the top of my head was a P-38 squadron leader who was killed by one.
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all turrents in this game are modeled incorrectly.
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Originally posted by Pongo
all turrents in this game are modeled incorrectly.
True.
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The 410 is sure a beauty, I'd like to see how they'd model the rear cannons! Any ideas?
(http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/Cosford/410b.jpg)
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There's already a system implemented which forbids the gun shoot thru fuselage. Thus both MGs could follow the target but only one with target on its firing arc is firing.
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Originally posted by Staga
There's already a system implemented which forbids the gun shoot thru fuselage. Thus both MGs could follow the target but only one with target on its firing arc is firing.
I was thinking more of how to aim the guns! How did they aim in RL, purely by luck?
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IIRC there was two handles and a sights for gunner, kinda like a dummy gun. I'll check if I can find pics.
Here's (http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/me410_gunner.jpg) one thought dunno know if sights were optical or "ring and Bean" type. Gotta search more :)
Should look my books first... This one is about Me210 gunner thought system was same in Me410.
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/me210_gunner.gif)
And firing arcs (me410):
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/me410_gunner2.jpg)
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The 410 was considered an improvement over the 110 by the Germans whereas the 210 wasnt.
Ive read some stuff about the cockpit having the rather nasty tendancy to burst into flames when hit. Theres a mention about pilots not liking it because it took so long to bail from the aircraft.Cant have been nice to see your friends trapped in a burning cockpit thats for sure.
The good points about the 410 is its slightly faster than the 110 whilst still able to carry a greater range of ladouts.
theres the standard 2x20mm MG151 +2x7.9mm MG 17 +2x13mm MG 131 in rear barbettes
then with guns loaded into to bombbay:
(me410 B-2/u2) 2x20mm(Mg151)+2x20mm 2x7.9mm + 2x13mm
(me410 B-2/u2/r2) 2x30mm(mk108)+ 2x20mm 2x7.9mm+ 2x13mm
(me410 B-2/u2/r3) 2x30mm(mk103)+ 2x20mm 2x7.9mm+ 2x13mm
(me410 B2/u2/r5) 4x20mm(mg151)+2x20mm 2x7.9mm+ 2x13mm
(me410 B2/u4) 1x50mm(BK5)+2x20mm 2x7.9mm+2x 13mm
(me410 B6) 2x30mm(mk103)]/b]+2x20mm 2x13mm(replacing 7.9mm)+ 2x13mm
there was also a revolving drum of 6 wr21cm air to air rockets held in the bomb bay.One rocket at a time protruded from the underside of the bay and they rotated as it fired :D
It could carry 8x 50kg OR 2x500kg OR 1x1000kg in the bombay( anything over 500kg was considered overloaded) plus the option of 4x 50kg's on external wing racks.
as you can see it would be similar to the 110 up to a point but if AH doesnt model the Bk5 or the 2xmk103 option it wouldnt be a huge leap over the 110g2 and therefore not really a good introduction over more needed aircraft like the he177 for instance.
if however getting a 410 means i can play with a 50mm cannon or 2x 30mm from the much improved mk103 then BRING IT ON!!! :D hey and id like to fire off 6 rockets in a fast salvo too :)
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Thx guys for response.
@Karnak: The Me 410 was a fairly fast plane. Regarding ur interesting story i guess it depends on the load out or version the 410 had.
@AGJV44: Do u have these docs in electronic format too?
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Production of the 210
Production began in Spring 1941 in both Augsburg and Regensburg factories; first deliveries began in April 1941.
A very important innovation in the Me 210 design was the use of side rear firing Mg131 turret guns (barbettes) controlled by the rear crew member by the means of a ReVi gun sight and a pistol grip with the firing trigger. These barbettes were delicate maintenance pieces and were not easy to handle. A famous victim of these guns was the American Ace Captain James Morris of the 20th Group. On 7/07/44, over Halle and Bernburg, he was shot down and killed in his P-38 Lightning by an attacked Me 410.
By the end of `41 the test program was over and the final evaluation was that it was still an unsuitable firing platform for its stability problems. Messerschmitt modified a pre-production plane (Me 210 A-0 NE+BH Werk Nr. 101) with lengthened rear fuselage (lengthened by 1˝ panels) and redesignating it with the Versuch-number V17 on 14/03/42. This modification was very successful in increasing the plane’s handling qualities. Another important modification was the fitting, in July 1942, of wing leading edge slots. Soon after flying tests it was ordered to retrofit all Me 210 As with this device.
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The Me 410 "Hornisse"
The Me 410, was an improvement of the Me 210 proposed as a high altitude fighter/bomber with two DB 603A engines (1750 hp), wing edge slats, a presurized cabine, lengthened engine nacelles and no sweep back on the wings. The Me 410 was waited everywhere in all fronts by 1943 and arrived too late. When it finally arrived, it was usually limited to the role of high-speed bomber or reconnaissance. The Hornisse was more successful in Observation units 1 and 7 than in the interceptor role.
The first prototype V1 was ready by the end of 1942. The entire test program envolved some twenty test planes many of which were modified Me 210s. The armament was the same as in the Me 210.
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Hungarian 210
In Hungary th Me 210 in the Ca-1 version was builded by the Dunai Repülögépgyár (Danube Aircraft Factory) under the Mutual Armament Program between Germany and Hungary. Two-thirds of this aircraf factory were to be delivered to Luftwaffe and the rest to the Honvéd Air Force. Even if it was mainly used as a Gyorsbombázó (fast bomber), the Me 210 Ca-1 was also used by the 5/1. night fighter Squadron known also as Bagoly (Owl) Squadron sited at Ferihegy airfiled in 1944.
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About the guns:
The Me 410 guns had the usual German defensive machine gun setting: lead calculating mechanical calculator gunsights, with system moving the machine guns and shooting whichever or both guns could fire at the target.
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Hi Grendel,
>The Me 410 guns had the usual German defensive machine gun setting: lead calculating mechanical calculator gunsights, with system moving the machine guns and shooting whichever or both guns could fire at the target.
"Usual" doesn't seem quite accurate as there was such a great variety of defensive systems in the Luftwaffe :-)
The Me 410 was unusual in having three reflector sights (port canopy "bulge", centre canopy rear, starboard canopy "bulge") mounted on the same mechanical unit that also featured the pistol grip. Depending on the direction of the attack, the gunner had to look through the appropriate sight. They all moved in parallel, but if the attack for example came from low starboard, the view from the centre sight of course could be blocked by the fuselage :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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How fast was the 410B btw? I can find the speed listed for the A-model everywhere (usually listed about 388-391 mph), but never for the upengined B-model.
I'll be happy if we just get a 210C tho. It's not the performance that's the big attraction for me, but just that it's such a good looker. I like to look good when I'm flying :)
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AGV44,
Could you post those charts please.
Speed and climb especially at low alt.
Thanks
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Man what a choice of guns. bk5 and mk103 options would both be fantastic. It also opens up some other interesting LW choices if those two weapons are modeled. Surely they'd have to add both packages...? (please :) )
Would love to see it and a Mossie NF to shoot it down with ;)
Gatso
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the bk5 and mk103s wont be any more effective then hispanos and 50 cals now. You would need to be close (maybe not with the bk5; depending how it modelled) to get hits. The 50cals and hizookas can kill gvs at a greater range then any other plane.
With their overload ord they will always be better attack aircraft then any other.
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Perk the 1000lbs loadouts on fighter planes!! :D
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Does anyone have real live reports or articles about this beautifull plane in combat?
Yes, I will type them up later. The Me-410 was neither fast enough or armored (armor plated) enough to take on B17s. This meant the 410 usually attacked B17s from the 6:00 and were shot down the majority of the time.
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BS david no b17 gunner shot down any plane "the majority of the time".
Hollywood bull****
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"Formation at nine o'clock level" Sharpe said.
Crone called them when they got around to seven. They were silver and they looked peaceable and went about their business in an orderly manner.
About that time Crone woke up. They weren't mosquitoes. "Them are Me 410's," he announced.
They were turning in. Sharpe lined up on the lead ship. "Here they come" His voice wasn't much, he said later.
They were 410's all right, new ones with no paint. They came in on a tail-pass, just as Sam was slipping back into formation.
Sharpe squeezed down on the first one, and the first one squeezed down on Sharpe, and they kept shooting at each other and kept on waiting.
Then Sharpe forgot to shoot any more and yelled, "I got one...I got one...I got one of those sonsasqueakes."
The Me[410] sagged off and began to come apart. The top hatch spilled off and the pilot bailed out.
There were more.
The 20-millimeters were burst all around the formation. Up ahead Forts were beginning to falter. One nosed out of formation in the group on the left and began to give birth. Nine chutes.
One old painted job out there at three o'clock had a fire in his Tokyos. Another tipped off on a wing and split-s-ed out of formation.
They queded up and came through again. Both sides were throwing out everything. Sharpe's left feed went out, and he kept on shooting with one gun.
"Every time the ball opened up I though we had it," Crone said later. "I could feel my bellybutton being chewed off."
The ammunition covers fell off the ball, and Beach couldn't shoot straight down without losing all his ammunition.
Ross knocked off a 410 when the simple guy tried to pull in and fly formation while he lobbed shells into the group ahead.
"I could've conked the pilot with my gun barrel," Ross said. "But I decided to shoot him."
The 410 blew up.
Lewis tracked another across the tail, saw the pieces begin to chip off, and smoke belch out of the cowl, and the pilot came out streaming silk.
The 410s made two main passes and several feints, and the side lines were thick with 109's and 190's looking for easy meat, waiting for wounded Forts to fall back.
Little Friends came on the scene then, 38's over the top and 51's in from high ten o'clock.
First hand account of B17 mission to Berlin, June 21st 1944. The crew went on to claim 6 victories that day, and were awarded 5. The survival rate of B17 crews was very much improved in 1944 vs 1943, therefor skill of the gunners was up while quality of German pilots was decreasing.
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Originally posted by davidpt40
Yes, I will type them up later. The Me-410 was neither fast enough or armored (armor plated) enough to take on B17s. This meant the 410 usually attacked B17s from the 6:00 and were shot down the majority of the time.
BS. The speed difference was well in Me-410s advantage. 410's problem was the escort fighters, not the B-17 itself. There are good instances of extremerely heavy losses on B-17s and B-24s when Me 410s were able to work without the escorts interfering.
Sure thing the defensive gunners could have had good days, but what makes you think a Me 410 would be any kind of sitting duck versus B-17, when the Me 410 has longer ranged, heavier hitting weapons? Don't make generalizations on one example you offer.
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Offer some evidence to dispute my claim then. From what I have read the 410 was a flop and many were shot down by 17 gunners.
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Originally posted by Grendel
A famous victim of these guns was the American Ace Captain James Morris of the 20th Group. On 7/07/44, over Halle and Bernburg, he was shot down and killed in his P-38 Lightning by an attacked Me 410.
Interesting. P-38 Lightning Aces of the ETO/MTO (p.77) states that Morris, having "mortally damaged" the 410, was hit and forced to bail out, finishing the war in a PoW camp.
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David your anecdotal evidence is about as credible as bouncing 50 cals off the ground to kill tanks...In other words its bs.
B17 tail gunner kills were way over claimed, not just a small bit but so over claimed that it borders on the ridiculous.
Do you know what dispersion tests on the ground showed for a tail gunner in a b24? at 600yrds it was like 28ft.
We had a guy in the squad whos dad was a tail gunner. He stated that it was dam near impossible to get hits.
No one believes that fairy tail bs.
"then the 410 exploded" lol
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A pilot anecdote from "Air Command - Fighters and bombers of World War II" p.149
Friedrich Stehle
Me 410 pilot, II/ZG 26
If we attacked the bombers from behind, we could really work on them - if we were left alone by the enemy escorts. You really had to work on those bombers; it was very seldom that you knocked them down with the first burst. Sometimes you would sit behind a bomber and fire off all your ammunition into it, and it would not move. It would just keep going.
If you were attacked by a Mustang, you could only prey and hope you gunner shot well. I had a few tricks I could throw in, and perhaps they saved me. My Viennese gunner, Unteroffizier Alois Slaby, was very experienced, and he knew exactly when the enemy was about to fire. He would say, "not yet - not yet. Now!" and I would chop the throttles, and the 410 would decelerate very rapidly. If we were lucky, the fighter would go screaming past us. Sometimes I would put the 410 into a skid wiht the wings level, and the enemy rounds would flash past the wing tip. We knew that if we could buy a little time, that often meant survival. Once the escorts had dropped their tanks, they could not fight for very long near Berlin. They had to break off and return to England.
At 28,000 feet, the Me 410 was only just about flying. It could not manouver much. Even at full throttle, we would be overtaking the enemy bombers at only about thirty miles per hour. As a result, it took us a long time to get ourselves into firing position. Fighting in the Me 410 was a bit like entering the Kentucky Derby on a cart horse!
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natural metal 410s.
Interesting.
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Originally posted by Pongo
natural metal 410s.
Interesting.
As far as i understand they where painted from the factory with civilian registration codes. These where then overpainted by the unit. I find it highly unlikely that an LW fighter flew in metal finish-especially from 1943 and onwards, when every plane and field was heavily camouflaged. My guess is that if the unlikely story is true, then the gunner fired at P-38's.
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Very interesting read LLv34_Snefens ... thx
:)
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Of course, me R want 410.
Duedel, kannste Ergebnisse ins Web stellen ?
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alles was du willst (was meinste mit Ergebnissen?)
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David your anecdotal evidence is about as credible as bouncing 50 cals off the ground to kill tanks...In other words its bs.
You call it anecdotal, I call it a first hand account.
At 28,000 feet, the Me 410 was only just about flying. It could not manouver much. Even at full throttle, we would be overtaking the enemy bombers at only about thirty miles per hour.
See? The 410 was a poorly maneuvering, slow, relatively large aircarft. Now if ever an easy target presented itself to tail and ball turret gunners, this was it.
We had a guy in the squad whos dad was a tail gunner. He stated that it was dam near impossible to get hits.
What year did he serve his tour of duty, and what kind of plane? By 1944 B17s were using the all metal Cheyenne tail gun turret, not the old canvas type. Maybe Tony Williams can comment on this.
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Hi David,
>You call it anecdotal, I call it a first hand account.
The "silver, no camouflage" bit is definitely suspect. Luftwaffe pilots thought the USAAF were downright foolish to fly bare metal aircraft. If you could find a photograph of a couple of Luftwaffe planes in squadron service that lacked paint, the credibility of your story would be considerably improved.
>See? The 410 was a poorly maneuvering, slow, relatively large aircarft. Now if ever an easy target presented itself to tail and ball turret gunners, this was it.
If you look at the B-17, you'll see that it isn't exactly fast or nimble either :-)
>By 1944 B17s were using the all metal Cheyenne tail gun turret, not the old canvas type.
The chin turret which was used similar technology as the Cheyenne turret still gave a dispersion of 12 mil (as did the top turret). The Me 410 had nose-mounted armament which gave a dispersion of 2 mil. That means considerably greater accuracy, combined with considerably greater firepower as the Me 410 was armed with a couple of 20 mm or 30 mm cannon. ("If the enemy is in range, so are you" ;-)
Destroyers were a proven weapon against bomber formations by the time the Me 410 came out, whch was a quite a bit faster than the Me 110 which had previously showed it was quite capable of catching the bombers. Accordingly, the Luftwaffe actually was quite reluctant to withdraw the destroyers from interception service as they were so effective - it was only the USAAF fighter cover that forced them to switch to single-engined aircraft.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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You call it anecdotal, I call it a first hand account.
I take it you still believe in Santa Clause...........
See? The 410 was a poorly maneuvering, slow, relatively large aircarft. Now if ever an easy target presented itself to tail and ball turret gunners, this was it.
How do you think a 190a8 performs at 28k..........?
Tell ya what take up to 28k in ah and try a flat turn and see what happens.........
Do you really think that b17 cruising in formation is only 30mph faster then a 410?
" My Staffel was in position about 1,000yd behind 'its' squadron of bombers.The Staffel leader ordered his aircraft into line abreast and, still in close formation, we advanced on the bombers. We were to advance like Frederick the Great's infantrymen, holding our fire until we could see 'the whites of the enemy's eyes'.''
" like the armoured knights in the Middle Ages, we were well protected . A Staffel might lose one or two aircraft during the advance, but the rest continued relentlessly on ."
Positioned now about 100yd behind the bombers the Staffel leader barked out the order to open fire
' Pauke ! Pauke ! ..'.
From such a range the Staffel could hardly miss, and the 3cm explosive rounds struck home . Just 2 rounds could take the tail off a B-17 , and a B-24's fuselage structure was not as sturdy. The enemy bombers literally fell apart in front of the Sturmgruppe.
The main enemy concentration from Magdeburg plus reinforcements from Southwest Germany, as many as 175 single engine and 125 twins in all, unleashed their attacks against the center of the column. Although one squadron of the leading 389th Group moving into Halle lost three bombers to enemy fighters when it strayed from the parent force, and the 489th lost one over Aschersleben, the majority of the attacks were hammered against the 14th Wing attacking Bernberg. As noted earlier the 44th Group was flying direct-ly behind the 392nd at a three minute interval. At the IP (the 44th noted in its mission report) "FOUR GROUPS OF B-24'S CAME IN FROM THE EAST AND IT BECAME NECESSARY TO SWING TO THE RIGHT... FIGHTER SUPPORT WAS EXCELLENT." In other words, the 492nd was now exposed to attack from the rear, and all local escort had gone with the 44th. Thus was the fate of the 492nd again sealed.
The Luftwaffe, in fact, was well organized on 7 July 1944. Liberators especially equipped to monitor enemy fighter frequencies actually heard the attacking ZG 26 pilots ordered to hit the "third formation" (i.e., the 14th Wing) as the "first formation" had too many escorting fighters protecting it.
Any guesses what happened to the 492nd on 7 july 1944?
Heres a hint........
From six o'clock the enemy fighters fell on the Group's low left squadron like a sledgehammer
In 80 days they got pounded so hard they were pulled from daylight bombing missions.
They must not a have had those "skilled" snipers......err gunners....
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Wotan.. do you mean to tell me ..... Santa Claus doesn't really exist!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:p
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posted on Ubi IL2 forum by roachclip.
Testing done by the USAAF found that the bullet pattern from a B-17 during ground testing had the following results for 12 rounds to 600yds:
ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 21' - 11.7mils
chin turret > dia. 23' - 12.6 mils
waist(closed) dia. 26' - 14.3mils
side nose > dia. 34' - 18.7mils
tail turret > dia 45' - 25mils
For the B-24 it was:
ball turret > dia. 15' - 8.3mils
upper turret > dia. 20' - 11.2mils
nose turret > dia. 23' - 12.9mils (Emerson)
nose turret > dia. 35' - 19.3mils (Motor Prod.)
waist(closed) dia. 23' - 12.9mils
waist(open) dia. 63' - 35.6mils
tail turret > dia 35' - 19.3mils
Attacks in reference to azimuth direction only.
B-17 - 3585 attacks, 441 hits (12.3%)
clock position - % of # of attacks - % hits
1 - 12.5 - 9.3
2 - 5.9 - 6.7
3 - 4.5 - 3.9
4 - 5.7 - 4.0
5 - 9.0 - 9.1
6 - 20.7 - 15.6
7 - 8.9 - 6.6
8 - 3.8 - 2.7
9 - 3.9 - 2.9
10 - 3.7 - 3.9
11 - 10.4 - 10.3
12 - 20.2 - 15.6
B-24 - 1042 attacks, 102 hits (9.8%)
clock position - % of # of attacks - % hits
1 - 12.7 - 8.7
2 - 3.9 - 5.2
3 - 2.9 - 5.4
4 - 3.0 - 3.6
5 - 7.8 - 7.7
6 - 19.6 - 20.6
7 - 11.0 - 6.9
8 - 3.1 - 2.0
9 - 2.8 - 3.9
10 - 6.9 - 3.4
11 - 11.9 - 7.8
12 - 21.6 - 17.6
taken from: "Gunner" ISBN 1-55046-332-2
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hmm david where ya at bud????
:p
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As for the bomber gunners claims... there`s the famous case of the Ploesti bombing runs. Bombers went in alone, w/o escort, and they were attacked by fighters, both Rumanian and German. The bomber gunners claimed something like 50 kills as certain.
In fact the Ger+Rum losses were like... 1.